Accepting personal responsibility

[OWoman]

I've often read on LS that the OW / OM should "accept their personal responsibility" for their role in the A, as opposed to claiming that they were not the married one and thus not bound by the vows the MP took.

 

And I must admit, while it looks obvious on the surface, I'm quite puzzled as to what it really means. Surely all adults accept responsibility for their actions - we're not children who, when caught being naughty by a teacher / parent, point to some other kid and claim "s/he made me do it"? I've not seen any OW or OM claiming that their MP "made" them have the A - they've all said (AFAICR) that they chose to participate, knowing that the MP was M. But it seems that that's not enough - accepting "responsibility" seems somehow to translate as "accepting blame" or "accepting guilt".

 

As an unapologetic fOW, I've always felt - and argued - that my participating in As is completely consistent with my own personal morality, and thus, for myself, I've not "done wrong" (in the sense of not having "sinned" merely by participating in As... Not in the sense of never doing anything "wrong" in any context, and not in the sense of not ever doing anything I might personally regret while in the A... which is a separate matter. I'm referring to the A per se as not being a "sin", in my moral framework.) So I feel no guilt. I have betrayed no one, and I have not betrayed my own morals.

 

Is this congruent with "accepting responsibility", or is it antithetical? how would someone who feels OW /OM should "accept responsibility" define that, and how would they identify it in the behaviour of the "responsibility accepting" OW or OM?

 

This is not a thread aimed at blaming anyone - it's a thread to discuss what is meant or understood by this concept, and how this can be expressed by or interpreted in someone's behaviour. It is genuinely something I don't understand, and I'm hoping those that do can clarify.

[bentnotbroken]

Interesting topic. Can't wait to see the responses.

[someday]

The way I see it is that the xOW in my H’s life knew full and well that he was M’ed to me and yet f’ed him anyway. That is disrespectful to me. To my children. For that showing of disrespect to me and mine I hold her accountable. Years ago…when this was all fresh…I did a very good job of self control- even when she was contacting me talking ****- I did not physically abuse her. For that she should be heavenly thankful. (and when confronted by me she would have said “talk to your H” I would have lost my mind on the spot- so ladies don’t use that line unless you truly never expect to see the BW in person- ever!) I hold my H accountable for disrespecting me and our children too. I told him to his face that I’d kick his ass if I were big enough to do it. They are both accountable for this situation. It’s not an either/or situation because they both acted in ways that were disrespectful to me and my children. Him I love, her I don’t know. Tell me who’s got more pull in my life?

 

Now to the point of topic- in my belief system all things are connected on both a physical level and a spiritual level. The world is a very large community with smaller and smaller communities within it. Each community relies on each other for survival. I’m sure most people reading this are thinking about humans only, but I’m not only talking about humans…every living being…every animate being…is connected. Each and everyone of us is responsible for our actions and contemplating how our actions might impact the larger communities around us. That’s a hell of a lot of responsibility for one person- but it’s not only for one person it’s for all people- all living beings- all animate beings. If we all do our part then it’s not too much for any one person.

 

TBH, I’m not overly religious in a Biblical sense (not that I think it’s bad, it’s just not for me), I don’t believe in marital vows or that all A’s are bad/evil. We are all in this together we should try to understand how our actions may impact others. We should try not to hurt others with our actions…or at the very least understand how our actions will impact others.

 

I could get into an A with OM, I'm pretty much in EA with him- I don't want to hurt his W or his kids or him...so I chose not to proceed with this R.

[Yvelysse]

It is genuinely something I don't understand, and I'm hoping those that do can clarify.

 

Same here. I'm divorcing and in a FwB relationship where he says 'we' are committing adultery because of a legality.

 

My Ex and I have been separated since 2004, in Texas a no fault divorce can cost about 700.00 dollars (there is no 'legal' separation). So not having been divorced legally has been an issue of funds not emotions or marital contract. The separation severed both.

 

Technically, I am an adulteress, yet I'm not.

 

I'd like to know where most would place me since the lines seem to be drawn in the sand.

[Silly_Girl]

Yes, yes and yes. If I post about the motivations and circumstance that led to me becoming involved in an affair I'm told I'm 'rationalising', and I need to 'own it'.

 

What??!! I have absolutely taken personal responsibility for my actions at every stage. I have thought long and very bloody hard about the consequences of mine/his/our actions and what the options are and how things might impact on the individuals concerned. I was the one having scary nightmares or just generally losing sleep about his wife, not him!!

 

I've considered that the 'norm' would be to disapprove of my actions, and of my relationship, and I've decided I'm (more than) okay with what I've done.

 

There is definitely a contingent who approve of only repentant fOW's and cheerlead those who fall on the correct side of the line. Those particular OW's will have been deemed to have taken responsibility for their actions, and owned their behaviour.

[myname]

There generally is quite a lot of demonising of the OW done, not always, but often. There is taking responsibility for your own actions, and then sometimes there is being expected to take responsibility for other's actions. Should an OW/M really be expected to be the one who has responsibility for not 'disrespecting' or 'hurting' a BS they do not know when the WS does not lead the way.

[sally4sara]

The only time I ever see people saying an AP should accept personal responsibility for their actions is when their actions contributed to the pain of others.

 

It never seems to be about anything else. But then, I don't live on this sub-forum so maybe its more at times.

 

Angry kid dealing with its parents breaking up eventually meets the former AP? AP had a hand in that anger.

 

Angry BS confronts the AP? AP had a hand in their pain.

 

Its as obvious to me as this is to you:

 

"Surely all adults accept responsibility for their actions - we're not children who, when caught being naughty by a teacher / parent, point to some other kid and claim "s/he made me do it"? I've not seen any OW or OM claiming that their MP "made" them have the A"

 

Perhaps it is the belief that if you had not been the AP, it would have been someone else that makes you feel differently? But if you were indeed just a figure head that could have been anyone - the BS folks that come on here and paint anyone who has ever been an AP with the same brush are justified, no?

[Spark1111]

Well, I believe it IS the difference between recognizing one CHOSE to have an affair with a MP, as opposed to being swept away by mysterious romantic forces that one will claim to ABSOLVE them of mature responsibility for their actions.

 

The old, "we couldn't help ourselves, it just happened" scenario.

 

It is the difference between what sounds like excuse-making, as opposed to owning the choices one has made, and the subsequent emotions that may resonate from those choices.

 

I think it is the difference of life perspectives.

 

Some insist they are the captains of their own destiny, while others claim to be swept away by the furies of fate.

 

These two camps will NEVER agree.

 

So, if a broken hearted OW posts, one camp will always responds with: "What did you expect? You knew he was married."

 

And the other camp will respond: "Why are you being so harsh? Can't you she's in love and no one can control who they love?"

 

So, if I choose to have an affair with a MP, accepting personal responsibility means to me that you own the action, the relationship, your choices and your feelings.

 

Shout it from the rooftops! And stop dodging the BS!

[Spark1111]

There generally is quite a lot of demonising of the OW done, not always, but often. There is taking responsibility for your own actions, and then sometimes there is being expected to take responsibility for other's actions. Should an OW/M really be expected to be the one who has responsibility for not 'disrespecting' or 'hurting' a BS they do not know when the WS does not lead the way.

 

 

Of course not, not more than a WS. That's unfair. But they did willingly engage in a relationship with a MP. That they should own.

 

And they should own that they did not care if the spouse was hurt.

 

Because that is true.

[Silly_Girl]

Of course not, not more than a WS. That's unfair. But they did willingly engage in a relationship with a MP. That they should own.

 

And they should own that they did not care if the spouse was hurt.

 

Because that is true.

 

THAT's an assumption.

[myname]

Of course not, not more than a WS. That's unfair. But they did willingly engage in a relationship with a MP. That they should own.

 

And they should own that they did not care if the spouse was hurt.

 

Because that is true.

 

If they did knowingly engage with a MP then yes they should own that, not all of them do not start off the relationship knowingly, and most do own their part in being involved with someone who's already involved. But I would say they don't necessarily know everything, they shouldn't automatically be assumed to be as responsible to the BS as the MM/W should be expected to be.

[YellowShark]

As an unapologetic fOW, I've always felt - and argued - that my participating in As is completely consistent with my own personal morality, and thus, for myself, I've not "done wrong" (in the sense of not having "sinned" merely by participating in As... Not in the sense of never doing anything "wrong" in any context, and not in the sense of not ever doing anything I might personally regret while in the A... which is a separate matter. I'm referring to the A per se as not being a "sin", in my moral framework.) So I feel no guilt. I have betrayed no one, and I have not betrayed my own morals.

 

Here's my thought process on this question. Since entering into an affair with a married person IS universally frowned upon in most societies I cannot see how one cannot know that they are not doing something that is socially unacceptable most places on Earth.

 

So if I follow your logic regarding being an unapologetic fOW, then a thief or a rapist who feels that theft or rape is consistent with their own personal morality, they can then simply given themselves a "free pass" as well to do something wrong. That just doesn't wash with me.

 

It's really about morality. When I see a wedding ring on a person it's a symbol to me that that person has made vows to another. I have the integrity and morality not to enter into any relationship with them, because I know that having an affair with that person is crossing a boundary that is socially unacceptable most places on Earth.

 

I don't even consider the sin or God aspects into my equation because that is only reserved for people who believe in that kind of stuff.

 

If they did knowingly engage with a MP then yes they should own that, not all of them do not start off the relationship knowingly, and most do own their part in being involved with someone who's already involved. But I would say they don't necessarily know everything, they shouldn't automatically be assumed to be as responsible to the BS as the MM/W should be expected to be.

 

IMHO BEFORE you get involved with someone you should know their situation. But if they've lied to you about their situation then the relationship is toxic from the getgo... and already based on lies and deceit. (...and frankly who wants to be with a person who A) lies to me, and B) is ALSO throwing their unsuspecting spouse under a bus! Man o'man... what a sick person that must be! )

Edited November 24, 2010 by YellowShark
spelling

[Spark1111]

THAT's an assumption.

 

Ok, so you care that the spouse or family will be hurt by the deception, but then, I guess you continue the relationship anyway.

 

What's that? If NOT caring?

[Spark1111]

If they did knowingly engage with a MP then yes they should own that, not all of them do not start off the relationship knowingly, and most do own their part in being involved with someone who's already involved. But I would say they don't necessarily know everything, they shouldn't automatically be assumed to be as responsible to the BS as the MM/W should be expected to be.

 

Oh no I agree. They are not AS responsible to the BS as the WS is, but still they are responsible for choosing to become involved with a married partner, yes? Who has a spouse already?

 

There is a personal responsibility in owning that choice, don't you think?

 

I do not believe it is about who is MORE personally responsible to the BS, because that is quantifying responsibility.

 

But they do have personal responsibility in choosing to become involved with a married partner, if they know that partner is married, yes?

 

Does it matter if the MP is happily married or not?

 

I don't think so, because then once again, we are using personal happiness to ABSOLVE one of personal responsiblity.

[Silly_Girl]

Ok, so you care that the spouse or family will be hurt by the deception, but then, I guess you continue the relationship anyway.

 

What's that? If NOT caring?

 

No I think you're projecting here. I care about a lot of things in this world, but I don't necessarily take action with regards to them, nor do I necessarily believe I should.

 

I care very much about the short-term upset caused by my relationship, and I STRONGLY believe it to be the lesser of two evils when weighed against them continuing their 10 yr marriage (the first half was okay) for the rest of their lives.

 

I care very deeply but still believe my actions to be the right ones - in the circumstances.

[someday]

No I think you're projecting here. I care about a lot of things in this world, but I don't necessarily take action with regards to them, nor do I necessarily believe I should.

 

I care very much about the short-term upset caused by my relationship, and I STRONGLY believe it to be the lesser of two evils when weighed against them continuing their 10 yr marriage (the first half was okay) for the rest of their lives.

 

I care very deeply but still believe my actions to be the right ones - in the circumstances.

 

 

You say you care but your actions say you don't care. What has more weight? Action or word? You do what you do becuase you want to do it and your happiness outweights the happiness of his W and children. What is so hard about saying this and accepting this?

 

To me it seems like you don't want to be the 'bad guy' in this senerio (I'm not saying that you are the bad guy, either) so you do some fancy word-work to make try to make it ok.

 

IMO.

[Spark1111]

SG, now I think you are quantifying circumstances. Either you are in a relationship with a married partner, or you are not.

 

What does that have to do with accepting personal responsibility for choosing to become involved with a married partner?

 

I am not passing judgement here.

 

I am just of the camp that circumstances, no matter what they may be, DO NOT absolve one from personal responsibility, if we are personally involved.

 

To me, it's like trying to be a little pregnant.

 

You either are, or you are not.

 

And if you are, you must accept personally responsibility for it.

 

No matter what the circumstances are that led you to it.

[Silly_Girl]

You say you care but your actions say you don't care. What has more weight? Action or word? You do what you do becuase you want to do it and your happiness outweights the happiness of his W and children. What is so hard about saying this and accepting this?

 

To me it seems like you don't want to be the 'bad guy' in this senerio (I'm not saying that you are the bad guy, either) so you do some fancy word-work to make try to make it ok.

 

IMO.

 

I don't agree with cheating on principle. U believe the best outcome for all 3 individuals (possibly 4 if you choose to include W's OM) and there are no children is for my guy and his wife to divorce. It's not complex. I made the choices I made and believe this route to be for the greater good.

[jwi71]

I've often read on LS that the OW / OM should "accept their personal responsibility" for their role in the A, as opposed to claiming that they were not the married one and thus not bound by the vows the MP took.

 

Uh-oh. I hope this thread can stay civil.

 

And I must admit, while it looks obvious on the surface, I'm quite puzzled as to what it really means. Surely all adults accept responsibility for their actions - we're not children who, when caught being naughty by a teacher / parent, point to some other kid and claim "s/he made me do it"? I've not seen any OW or OM claiming that their MP "made" them have the A - they've all said (AFAICR) that they chose to participate, knowing that the MP was M. But it seems that that's not enough - accepting "responsibility" seems somehow to translate as "accepting blame" or "accepting guilt".

 

Actually...I HAVE seen this here in several posts. Its thinly veiled as "He pursued me".

 

And the OM/OW accepts HALF the blame. NO more, NO less.

 

As an unapologetic fOW, I've always felt - and argued - that my participating in As is completely consistent with my own personal morality, and thus, for myself, I've not "done wrong" (in the sense of not having "sinned" merely by participating in As... Not in the sense of never doing anything "wrong" in any context, and not in the sense of not ever doing anything I might personally regret while in the A... which is a separate matter. I'm referring to the A per se as not being a "sin", in my moral framework.) So I feel no guilt. I have betrayed no one, and I have not betrayed my own morals.

 

Makes perfect sense actually. You see M as between two people and you weren't one of them. Therefore, you didn't break any vows. I get it. I don't agree but I get it.

 

I can draw a loose analogy to standing in line for something...anything, say movie tickets. There is an unwritten social code of "no cutting in line". You have an understood relation with the person in front of you (call him Joe) and the person behind you. Joe goes before you and the person behind you goes after you. You also have a loose association with the person in front of Joe and even looser connection to the one in front of that person and so on. A social contract. You would be MOST perturbed if someone named Sally got in line in front of you but behind Joe. Sally has violated the social norm. Now, has Sally violated HER own social contract? No. She had no relation to you or Joe so she can justify her behavior by saying just that -I wasn't in line (outside of this line's contract) and now I am. However, EVERYONE in line behind Sally is AFFECTED to some degree. The social contract is violated.

 

I know, its an approximate analogy - not perfect but I hope my intent is clear.

 

Is this congruent with "accepting responsibility", or is it antithetical? how would someone who feels OW /OM should "accept responsibility" define that, and how would they identify it in the behaviour of the "responsibility accepting" OW or OM?

 

Of course the OM/OW should accept responsibility. Whether one agrees with the concept of M is beside the point - these are actions which will likely cause grievous injury to an innocent third party (the BS). Even if one accepts that the OM/OW is outside M, they are NOT outside being human and, I would hope, not seek to harm those whom they have never met.

 

And is there any OM/OW who doesn't feel "bad" towards the BS (in a cause them pain sense)?

 

This is not a thread aimed at blaming anyone - it's a thread to discuss what is meant or understood by this concept, and how this can be expressed by or interpreted in someone's behaviour. It is genuinely something I don't understand, and I'm hoping those that do can clarify.

 

Ultimately, we are all 100% to blame for our actions since we DID them.

Blame is all about accepting responsibility for morally "wrong" behavior.

The opposite is praise.

 

Funny how no one ever refutes praise. I wonder why.

[Silly_Girl]

SG, now I think you are quantifying circumstances. Either you are in a relationship with a married partner, or you are not.

 

What does that have to do with accepting personal responsibility for choosing to become involved with a married partner?

 

I am not passing judgement here.

 

I am just of the camp that circumstances, no matter what they may be, DO NOT absolve one from personal responsibility, if we are personally involved.

 

To me, it's like trying to be a little pregnant.

 

You either are, or you are not.

 

And if you are, you must accept personally responsibility for it.

 

No matter what the circumstances are that led you to it.

 

How am I not accepting it??? This is what I don't get. I put my hand up and say Yep, I've made that life choice, I've decided this is for me.

 

Yet you say I'm trying to be absolved. No way do I expect to be absolved. Though my counsellor thinks I need to go a little easier on myself. I take those actions with me every day, and I think long and hard about them. Just because I don't BEHAVE as you want me to does not mean I am not owning where I am and the choices I've made.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Silly_Girl

[someday]

I don't agree with cheating on principle. U believe the best outcome for all 3 individuals (possibly 4 if you choose to include W's OM) and there are no children is for my guy and his wife to divorce. It's not complex. I made the choices I made and believe this route to be for the greater good.

 

Um, I'm not sure what your point is here? Whose greater good is being served? That is my point. You act for yourself. You try to pretty it up with words (circumstances as reason) but the bottom line here is that this situation is working for you...and that's all that really matters to you. I think that this is true for most people, because mostly all people will act in a way that serves their own greater good. IMO, this is the way the world works.

 

I personally cannot enter into the PA (and will end the EA) because it is against my own morality. Because it's against my own morality I cannot support it. Yes, it hurts me to know that he and I will never have more together but it would hurt me more to go against my own personal standards.

[Silly_Girl]

Um, I'm not sure what your point is here? Whose greater good is being served? That is my point. You act for yourself. You try to pretty it up with words (circumstances as reason) but the bottom line here is that this situation is working for you...and that's all that really matters to you. I think that this is true for most people, because mostly all people will act in a way that serves their own greater good. IMO, this is the way the world works.

 

I personally cannot enter into the PA (and will end the EA) because it is against my own morality. Because it's against my own morality I cannot support it. Yes, it hurts me to know that he and I will never have more together but it would hurt me more to go against my own personal standards.

 

An affair with different components, different people, different backdrop, I'd make my decisions based on those circumstances (and have done), here I make the decision based on the current scenario. It's not prettying it. Clearly I have decided that I am not bypassing my morals by being involved with this man.

[woinlove]

This is a very interesting topic for me personally because I've been on both sides, as an OW who had absolutely no guilt, and as someone with a desire to be with a MM but seeing things from a different perspective now. What changed for me is just getting older, being loved more, and learning to love more.

 

Previously, I felt that the M was between MM and his W and, although I would never get involved with the H of a friend, or even of an acquaintance, if I didn't know the W, I really did not care about her and what my actions might mean to her or to their children. MM's family was far removed from me and I always kept it that way. I would never want to meet his W. I felt no guilt.

 

Now, I just feel more of a connection to humanity as a whole and like to live my life trying to be kind to others, even strangers, and to treat others as I like to be treated. This includes both caring about how my actions affect strangers and also caring more about the effect I have on those I am intimate with. I would like to think I encourage those I love to be the best they can be and being the best does not mean deceiving your spouse.

 

I'm old enough to be able to recognize initial attractions, and so can choose how to respond before I get emotionally involved. To me it is all about kindness to others. In the end, of course, this is for me. I feel better treating others this way, so I do it for myself.

 

LS has helped me see this more clearly, as I've learned a lot here about the great pain affairs can cause for all involved. I don't want to be the person that brings such pain to others or to myself.

[someday]

Hm. It truly must be too hard to admit and to say to all others “Yes, this is for me and I don’t care *enough* about the others my actions will hurt.”

 

There are all sorts of circumstances out there and there are all sorts of outcomes to those circumstances. We all know this…circumstances are not the reasons for our actions. WE are the reasons for our actions- us and us alone. How we chose to apply ourselves to those circumstances. I bet he’s not the first MM who has wanted to be with you, I’m sure he’s not going to be the last. Maybe the other MM’s circumstances are the so similar to his as to be the same…yet, you have not chosen to become involved with them…why? Because of you and you alone.

 

...and I'm out. Have a very Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

[phillyfan]

I've often read on LS that the OW / OM should "accept their personal responsibility" for their role in the A, as opposed to claiming that they were not the married one and thus not bound by the vows the MP took.

 

And I must admit, while it looks obvious on the surface, I'm quite puzzled as to what it really means. Surely all adults accept responsibility for their actions - we're not children who, when caught being naughty by a teacher / parent, point to some other kid and claim "s/he made me do it"? I've not seen any OW or OM claiming that their MP "made" them have the A - they've all said (AFAICR) that they chose to participate, knowing that the MP was M. But it seems that that's not enough - accepting "responsibility" seems somehow to translate as "accepting blame" or "accepting guilt".

 

As an unapologetic fOW, I've always felt - and argued - that my participating in As is completely consistent with my own personal morality, and thus, for myself, I've not "done wrong" (in the sense of not having "sinned" merely by participating in As... Not in the sense of never doing anything "wrong" in any context, and not in the sense of not ever doing anything I might personally regret while in the A... which is a separate matter. I'm referring to the A per se as not being a "sin", in my moral framework.) So I feel no guilt. I have betrayed no one, and I have not betrayed my own morals.

 

Is this congruent with "accepting responsibility", or is it antithetical? how would someone who feels OW /OM should "accept responsibility" define that, and how would they identify it in the behaviour of the "responsibility accepting" OW or OM?

 

This is not a thread aimed at blaming anyone - it's a thread to discuss what is meant or understood by this concept, and how this can be expressed by or interpreted in someone's behaviour. It is genuinely something I don't understand, and I'm hoping those that do can clarify.

 

Dude u seriously need clarification about this? It is very straightforward. Acceptin responsibility means - u accept that it is your responsibility that u broke up a home and ruined peoples lives.

 

U r confusin things too btw, maybe thats why u r confused. U are thinkin that u are actin in your own moral code, but takin responsibility isnt about u, it is about the people u hurt n bein real about what u did to them, and u know, be real - u have made a lot of damage regardless of whether it hurts ur own moral code or not.