Respect others' choices

[whichwayisup]

But you have suggested that "non-OW" should be humble in their posts and refrain from criticising affairs. Sounds almost like censorship to me.

 

Very true.

 

If someone doesn't agree with affairs, that's their right. with that said, good advice can still come of it. Infact, I've had many OW thank me for my sometimes harsh advice, and how much I've helped them not only on here, but through PM's. So, just because a person isn't warming up to the idea of affairs, doesn't mean they can't offer good and meaningful advice.

[whichwayisup]

This thread is about how to give support to OW who chose to stay in an EMR. I am just giving my opinion.

 

Yes, as am I.

 

Maybe now we can confine this discussion to one thread and let the other threads by others be focussed only advice giving and not have the fighting and picking apart of every single reply by others..

[jennie-jennie]

This thread is about how to give support to OW who chose to stay in an EMR. I am just giving my opinion.

 

When I first came to LS I was drowned in responses which basically told me to get out. These weren't helpful. I came to LS to get support with the hardships it is to be an OW even when you have made an active choice to be one.

 

FOG's post about an OW who only posts about the good sides of an EMR made me reflect over how we can make LS be a place where OW who chose to stay in an affair can post about both the good and the bad parts. That's what this thread is about: How do we give support to OW who chose to stay in an EMR?

[jennie-jennie]

But you have suggested that "non-OW" should be humble in their posts and refrain from criticising affairs. Sounds almost like censorship to me.

 

So when I give advice it is censorship? :eek:

[anne1707]

So when I give advice it is censorship? :eek:

 

No. But telling others what advice they are allowed to give is censorship.

[hoping2heal]

Is it possible that LS can become a place where we respect that other adults are capable of making choices in their own best interest, choices which for us ourselves would be morally wrong and/or bad choices? Is it possible for us to support a person who takes a different moral stand than we do without telling them to conform to our moral stand? Is it possible for LS to become a place where OW choosing to stay in extramarital relationships can find the support they need while remaining in the relationship?

 

It is never easy to be an OW. Even when you consider the benefits to outweigh the consequences, support frequently is needed.

 

Today, unfortunately, I believe this to be a too common scenario:

 

 

 

I don't think this OW is trying to deceive anyone. It is more likely that she does not feel safe to express the concerns she has on LS. So it would be in the interest of the anti-affair posters as well to make LS a better place for the OW choosing to remain in extramarital relationships. That way a truer picture would be presented of the life as an OW.

 

FOG posed me some interesting questions which I am hoping we can discuss in this thread:

 

I think FOG is right. Choosing to get into an affair is a very self destructive decision. If your self esteem is not to the floor before you agree to an affair, it will be when all is said and done. I think there is a real naive unawareness of the harmful effects of chronic stress. Forget the "moral" aspect of it. It does not matter what religion you do or do not follow, or what values you have or do not have regarding affairs. It is an equal opportunity destructive force that will thrill you and then kill you. It is hard as someone's friend to be supportive for the same reason it is hard to tell them to go have a great time with the pistol playing russian roulette.

 

As I mentioned in a post previously, every AP wants to believe that won't be them. That is not them and never could be. That their situation is so much different and will end so much differently. This is rarely ever the case, including in those rare scenarios where the OM/OW does leave their husband or wife.

 

Now, there are people here who have been a BS and will lash out at you because they know the hurt it is causing, or there are people who have been the children hurt in an affair and they will weigh in. There are those who have strong religious convictions against having affairs, so they too will their say about it. What ever the reason, I can imagine being in an affair would need a lot of support but you're likely to be hard pressed to find it because wether friend or foe, affairs are self destructive and toxic and the only one who cannot see it is those in them at the time.

[jennie-jennie]

No. But telling others what advice they are allowed to give is censorship.

 

I didn't do that. Only Tony can do that.

[anne1707]

I didn't do that. Only Tony can do that.

 

But in a post which appears to have since been deleted you said :

 

So if the non-OW could be a bit humble and just say that an extramarital relationship can be a negative experience, that would go a long way in my opinion.

 

I own my choices.

 

Are you telling me that you did not tell non-OW to be a bit humble?

[jennie-jennie]

But in a post which appears to have since been deleted you said :

 

Are you telling me that you did not tell non-OW to be a bit humble?

 

As you know English is not my native language. It was a suggestion. Are you saying it could be interpreted in any other way?

[anne1707]

As you know English is not my native language. It was a suggestion. Are you saying it could be interpreted in any other way?

 

Are you really trying to suggest you are that naive?

[whichwayisup]

I didn't do that. Only Tony can do that.

Then why are earth are you hellbent in trying to control what and HOW everybody on here replies to people's posts?

[jennie-jennie]

It is hard as someone's friend to be supportive for the same reason it is hard to tell them to go have a great time with the pistol playing russian roulette.

 

Finally someone on topic. So your opinion is then that being against affairs it is difficult to give real support to OW who chose to be in affairs when they are having issues within their relationship?

[jennie-jennie]

Then why are earth are you hellbent in trying to control what and HOW everybody on here replies to people's posts?

 

I'm not! Why are you hellbent in insinuating that I am? I am only stating my opinion, in the example Anne gave it was my opinion about generalizations and how to avoid them.

[jennie-jennie]

Are you really trying to suggest you are that naive?

 

I am apparently. Because that was a suggestion, nothing else. Certainly not an attempt to censorship. Sometimes I feel LS posters have this really distorted filter they look through when they read my posts. I don't recognize what they say I said.

 

That's why I am wondering if it is something wrong with my use of the English language?

[whichwayisup]

I'm not! Why are you hellbent in insinuating that I am? I am only stating my opinion, in the example Anne gave it was my opinion about generalizations and how to avoid them.

 

JJ you articulate yourself very well and you're well spoken when you need to be and want to make a point, you're passionate and very expressive.

 

For days now on various threads you've been trying to tell people how to post, what to say what not to say. Are you denying that you've said that now? Denying that you feel if someone is not in an affair their advice isn't worthy of reading, that it doesn't count? Even in this thread you've been trying to control and tell people what to do in your opinion.

 

I'm too lazy to go and find all those posts, but they are there unless Tony deleted them.

[anne1707]

Sometimes I feel LS posters have this really distorted filter they look through

 

 

Oh I totally agree with this

[whichwayisup]

I am apparently. Because that was a suggestion, nothing else. Certainly not an attempt to censorship. Sometimes I feel LS posters have this really distorted filter they look through when they read my posts. I don't recognize what they say I said.

 

That's why I am wondering if it is something wrong with my use of the English language?

 

I don't know. Look at how so many have reacted to how you've worded things. As I said you're very articulate and seem to know what you're talking about, and are well spoken so I find it odd that now all of sudden you feel like noone has understood your point(s) and have taken them out of context.

[jennie-jennie]

JJ you articulate yourself very well and you're well spoken when you need to be and want to make a point, you're passionate and very expressive.

 

For days now on various threads you've been trying to tell people how to post, what to say what not to say. Are you denying that you've said that now? Denying that you feel if someone is not in an affair their advice isn't worthy of reading, that it doesn't count? Even in this thread you've been trying to control and tell people what to do in your opinion.

 

I'm too lazy to go and find all those posts, but they are there unless Tony deleted them.

 

I never stated that someone who is not in an affair gives advice not worthy of reading or advice that doesn't count. I have stated that they don't really know what it feels like to be an OW, that they are missing vital information on how it is to be an OW.

 

All I have to do is look at myself. I knew nothing of the reality of being a long term OW before I was one. Yet I had been a BS for many years. I had been a WS for a very short time period as well. I would even say that I knew nothing of how it is to be a long term OW the first year or so of our relationship either.

 

I could still have given advice, and some of it would probably have been good advice. Yet I have so much more insight now of what it is to be an OW. Insight I could only get by being one.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't know. Look at how so many have reacted to how you've worded things. As I said you're very articulate and seem to know what you're talking about, and are well spoken so I find it odd that now all of sudden you feel like noone has understood your point(s) and have taken them out of context.

 

It could be a cultural thing of course. What is not considered offensive in my country, might be considered offensive in others.

 

The people in my country are known for being straight forward and outspoken, and not especially polite.

[anne1707]

It could be a cultural thing of course. What is not considered offensive in my country, might be considered offensive in others.

 

The people in my country are known for being straight forward and outspoken, and not especially polite.

 

Which would imply they do not like being told to watch what they say. So why tell fellow posters to not fully express their views?

[Spark1111]

I never stated that someone who is not in an affair gives advice not worthy of reading or advice that doesn't count. I have stated that they don't really know what it feels like to be an OW, that they are missing vital information on how it is to be an OW.

 

All I have to do is look at myself. I knew nothing of the reality of being a long term OW before I was one. Yet I had been a BS for many years. I had been a WS for a very short time period as well. I would even say that I knew nothing of how it is to be a long term OW the first year or so of our relationship either.

 

I could still have given advice, and some of it would probably have been good advice. Yet I have so much more insight now of what it is to be an OW. Insight I could only get by being one.

 

So toughen up, for cryin'outloud!

 

I came here as a BS desperately trying to figure out if I even had the strength or courage to reconcile with my pleading WS!

 

Know how many posters told me I was crazy? That once a cheater always a cheater? That how could I ever trust him again? I was crazy not to divorce him. That he was probably still talking or speaking with his OW, or even seeing her on the side?

 

That he and his actions were only a ruse? That I must be insane to feel empathy for her? And when I finally spoke with her and discovered her shocking instability, that I must be a typical BS throwing stones at the OW?

 

C'mon Jenny! Very, very few supported any choice I made for almost 2 years! Or my lifestyle, or my attempts to reconcile!

 

Doesn't mean I did not receive some great advice, whether harsh or kind!

 

Just take what you need and leave the rest. You know how the program works!

[hoping2heal]

Finally someone on topic. So your opinion is then that being against affairs it is difficult to give real support to OW who chose to be in affairs when they are having issues within their relationship?

 

I have never been in an affair myself. I have known about 6 people who have been in them, closely.

 

To be honest? I couldn't take it anymore. I tried to be a support but it was not even MY affairs and I was totally drained emotionally, witnessing the beat down these people were getting. They were just so deep in it and I watched the life go right out of them once the initial "greatness" of the affair wore off after 6 months, a year, so on and so forth. Even in the situations where the AP's MM and in one case MW left their spouses, it did not end well. I cannot imagine what THEY must of been going through if it was draining ME so much.

 

My father also had an affair with the married mother of a girl I went mentoring in a youth program. My parents were both divorced long before this.

 

The thing is, even trying to be "supportive" I think affairs are terrible things. For both people. How do you support something you not only know is self destructive and going to crush someone like a steamroller, but believe is completely wrong? I think it is a HORRIBLE thing to cheat on a partner and have an affair. I am not so delusioned to believe that all BS are sweet and innocent angels who have been loving and loyal companions for years and now they are just being so wronged. No, in fact in some of the cases, the BS's were emotional vampires, or manipulative, cold, and selfish. That being said, the children were hurt and damaged. It still is not right.

 

I don't need some religion or deity to tell me that stepping out on a marriage or stepping in on someone else's and having your own part in the deceitful and hurtful behavior of an affair is wrong and a really, awful thing to do to another human being.

 

So, there is that angle too. So, if we are your friend or what have you - what are we to do? Take a big crap on what we know is wrong and listen, totally repulsed (not by you, persay) but by your actions all the while knowing that YOU are going to end up screwed 7 ways from Sunday when all is said and done?

 

No one asked you to have an affair, you know that. This was your own doing and as much as you may need or want someone to support and understand your decisions, having affairs is wrong and hurtful to innocent people. Do you see sympathy and understanding for teachers who begin sexual relationships with students? Do you see sympathy and understanding for people who con others to make a living? No. Because deep down, no matter what God we pray to at night or even if there is not one - we know those things are wrong, and we know they will not end well.

[fooled once]

So many great posts...

 

First off, disagreeing is NOT bashing, nor does SUPPORT = acceptance. Many times I have been told that the choice I made to have an affair was wrong, and the poster went on to explain why they thought so. I never considered this to be "bashing", but more along the lines of concerned criticism.

 

Totally agree!

 

It is called a difference of opinion!

 

I agree with this! Opinions, and their presentation on a written anonymous internet program,, will run the gamut of all opinions from all sorts of people.

 

Just like real life.

 

We cannot select nor choose what is advised or suggested or disagreed with.

 

A group of people will NEVER agree on what constitutes support or passion.

 

What may offend one, may be viewed as straight shooting advice, by another.

 

When you post here, it is with an understanding that you may face brick bats and feather pillows; sharks and bunnies.

 

Take what you need and leave the rest.

 

If I wanted undying support, respect and compassion for everything I do or say, I can tell it to my dog. He is a great listener!

 

Excellent post!

 

What I deem support and respect are not going to be deemed respect by someone else. My version of respect is if I don't call you everything but a child of God...you have my respect. Anything other than that is what someone else wants me to say the way they want me to say it....not going to happen. I am pushing 50 and I am long past the age of someone telling me how to say something I want to say. I know this is a public board and I roll with the punches(use what you can and leave the rest) my version of support is never going to include rose colored glasses to see it. I am okay with folks ignoring me.

 

Agree!

 

I think real issue at hand here is (atleast what causes arguing and more reaction and going off topic) posters (and I am guilty of this too!) lose focus and instead of just sticking to helping the original poster, WE ALL pick apart/disagree/agree/give our 2 cents worth about how OTHERS are giving advice, if it's good or a bad, unuseful, too rude, too nice, not the right kind of advice etc etc.. If everyone just basically stuck to helping the OP and stopped the side bickering, things WOULD get better here on LS.

 

IT just takes one person (anybody) to go off topic and from then on replies are picked apart, it becomes personal and then the arguing happens.

 

Ego's, the need to be right, point out who's wrong and why, or just wanting to rouse people up for whatever reason - THAT has to stop. Common respect has to happen...that we all have different opinions, come from different experiences, backgrounds, NOONE is right and NOONE is wrong. Does it really matter anyway, who gives better advice and why, depending on whether or not they're a BS, OW, OM, MM, MW or just someone passing on by who felt like offering their advice.

 

Alot of the bickering IS personal between various members. And that gets contagious, spreads into other threads. If we all just stopped and made an effort, ask yourself is it really worth taking a shot at someone, for what? Think about it.

 

I always say there's a BIG difference between harsh and rude advice. Harsh advice is a reality kick. Using rude words and being disrespectful isn't cool and it isn't helpful.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Re the bold - NO it doesn't matter - there is no requirement for who is allowed to join - whether they are a BS, a OW, a man, a woman, a teenager, an older person, etc.

 

It is entirely possible to respectfully disagree with other's POV's. Just because one doesn't agree with an OW's choices and posts to that effect doesn't mean that they do not respect the OW herself. I believe most people here can and do disagree in a respectful manner. Besides, respect goes both ways. It's just as disrespectful to tell others to not post towards their own POV if it’s not agreeable towards the OP’s POV.

 

Agree! respect does go both ways. People should not be allowed to dredge up former posts, should not go to other posts to poke at people, should not take things personally (for the most part, unless a dig is specifically at you <general you> and those should be reported to the moderators).

 

Jennie......are you serious? You want people to censor what they say or soften it up a bit just so they won't offend your sensibilities?

It seems to me that what you want is censorship of those posts that YOU find offensive or not in agreement with your views.

 

Let me say.....I agree that new posters shouldn't be with bombarded with harsh, rude, bashing, and demeaning posts, but to think that posters should only respond in the way you think they should is, well it blows my mind and maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.

 

Agree. How many threads have been started over the last 6 months on this exact topic by this exact OP? Many. Many posts in other threads 'telling' posters who can post, what they can post, how they can post, etc. It gets tiresome.

 

JJ you articulate yourself very well and you're well spoken when you need to be and want to make a point, you're passionate and very expressive.

 

For days now on various threads you've been trying to tell people how to post, what to say what not to say. Are you denying that you've said that now? Denying that you feel if someone is not in an affair their advice isn't worthy of reading, that it doesn't count? Even in this thread you've been trying to control and tell people what to do in your opinion.

 

I'm too lazy to go and find all those posts, but they are there unless Tony deleted them.

 

I have seen this in many threads - the "you must not understand me" or "you took it the wrong way" or "English isn't my native language", or "I was just kidding". Yet at other times, things are articulated very well.

 

The ONLY thing I have an issue with is the pot shots and the name calling.

 

Opinions are like butt holes - we all have them. The ignore feature works great! Or, better yet, walk away for a while. Take a break. LET IT GO if it is causing you (general you) so much angst. There is no right or wrong many times. Yes, many feel affairs are wrong. So what. Is it that big of a deal in your (general your) life. IT IS THE INTERNET. There is no rule on who has to stay here, who has to post. Don't like a post, find another one. Instead of the continual arguing and bickering, walk away. State your view and walk away. It is pretty easy!

[Fieldsofgold]

It could be a cultural thing of course. What is not considered offensive in my country, might be considered offensive in others.

 

The people in my country are known for being straight forward and outspoken, and not especially polite.

 

LOL! Same here - but it always gets me an infraction from Tony!

[Lucius]

Is it possible that LS can become a place where we respect that other adults are capable of making choices in their own best interest, choices which for us ourselves would be morally wrong and/or bad choices? Is it possible for us to support a person who takes a different moral stand than we do without telling them to conform to our moral stand? Is it possible for LS to become a place where OW choosing to stay in extramarital relationships can find the support they need while remaining in the relationship?

 

JJ, I like your directness but the discussion is meandering, the answer to your question is no.