She's independent + afraid of commitment

[Nick Diamond]

Here's the lowdown: I'm 25 years old, single, never been married, no kids. About a year ago, I met a very attractive woman at the gym, who is 39. She has been married once, which ended in divorce about five years ago, with no children, and she's a very successful woman. When our friendship began, it was always small talk ... "hi, how are you, bye" pretty much. Randomly one day about four months ago, she struck up a conversation with me and we really hit it off. As time went on and our trust for one another began to build, she began to open up to me and she told me that she was a very independent and private person, and she always has been. As we began finding that we had many things in common, we started enjoying each other's company more and more, and she eventually gave me her number one day and told me to text/call her sometime. At this point, I knew that she was very picky about who she shared her number with, and I didn't even ask for it, so I was feeling fairly confident about the situation. My only concern at the time was that, even though I enjoyed talking to her and being around her, I didn't want to text/call her too often because of her independence, so I would only text about once a week, if that.

 

As we became closer, we started planning our days so that our workout schedules would coincide. Keep in mind, this is something we never discussed with one another, we just kind of took it upon ourselves to do it. One night about a month ago, we finished our workout at the same time, and we walked out together and stood in the parking lot for 20 minutes talking. This same scenario has happened every single night since. It's gotten to where if I finish before she does, I'll sit outside and wait on her, and vice versa. I've also noticed over the last couple of weeks that when we walk out, she will purposely slow down before getting to doors so that I can get ahead of her and open them for her, whereas say two months ago, she would have opened the door for herself. Also, over the last month, we've started texting more regularly, and the eye contact, smiling, etc. has gotten pretty intense, and here lately, she'll poke her tongue out at me and smile. There is definitely a strong connection between the two of us, that I'm sure of. Whether or not she sees me as just a good friend or possible relationship material, I'm not sure.

 

As time has gone on, I've begun to develop feelings for her, and I am at the point where I really care about her. Over the past two weeks, I've tried doing little things that would 1) let her know I care about her, and 2) let me judge her reactions. For example, she had been training for a triathlon for three months and she was on an extreme diet of literally protein and water. During her training, she told me about a place downtown that sold cakes, and that she had always wanted to try one. The day after her triathlon, I went and got a cake for her. She blushed when I gave it to her and said "Oh my God, I can't believe you did this for me!" Also, she was sick with the flu last week, and I offered to pick up medicine/water for her and told her to let me know if there was anything I could do. Again, I have a hard time drawing a line for myself when it comes to showing an independent woman that I care, yet still allowing her to be independent. Either way, I'm 99% sure that she now knows I care about her.

 

Here's where it gets a little sticky, though: A couple of weeks ago, a good friend of mine who is a trainer at the gym told me that they were talking about relationships, and so she was being nosey for me and asked her if she was in one. It turns out she's been seeing someone (who is her age) for over a year, but she "isn't committed to him." I also found out from her that she tried dating another (younger) man for a couple of months during this time period, and she apparently let her guard down and he broke her heart, which happened right before she and I really started talking, coincidentally. What's interesting to me is that in the year I've known this woman, she's never once told me that she was seeing anyone … never even hinted around at it, yet, she's asked me before if I have a girlfriend. I'm sure you're all thinking "Ask her out, already!" Well, I've tried testing the waters as far as asking her out goes, but with little success. For example, I recently moved into a new condominium, and she has expressed interest in coming over to check it out. She has even helped me pick out furniture and wall art. Her exact words were "I'm very anxious to see your place." Yet, just last week, I told her that she needs to go ahead and plan on coming over one of the weekends following the Thanksgiving holidays, and her response was "I'm not a big planner … we'll talk." A couple of days later, I told her that she and I should plan a lunch date in the next couple of weeks and that I would come pick her up at work. Her response was "Sounds good … but I'm not making any promises." What the hell does that mean? To top it off, the very next day, she's talking about her Thanksgiving plans, and she tells me "I don't like to commit to things with time constraints … or anything, for that matter. I'm a more spur of the moment type of person." So apparently she's afraid of commitment, huh?

 

I am experienced when it comes to dating, asking women out, etc., but this is a totally new scenario with me. I've never been interested in an older woman, an independent woman, nor a woman who is afraid of commitment, and she is all three. Where in the hell do I go from here? Why hasn't she told me about the guy she has been seeing? And why does she openly express interest in wanting to come over/go out, yet she can't back it up? Do you think she's pulling my strings, or is she genuinely that afraid of commitment? Also, I'm wondering if she's still a little bruised from the last younger guy she dated and is being cautious. Any ideas on how to handle this?

[Seamless74]

Honestly you know what it is bro... she digs your attention and validation.. Or she just likes having friends, women are different than us they can really be freinds with someone of the opposite sex with no agenda, whereas the majority of us cannot..

 

Now I just wanna say sounds pretty cool and its definately new ground for you Im sure so i respect you even trying with the older woman like that. But some of the things you mentioned are kinda lame and supplicative I think (And I bet you do as well) I mean buying the cake, taking care of her with the flu, How many guys do you see doing that with a woman theyre not screwing,, I dunno maybe alot but I bet the guys that are doing that type of **** arent getting laid their just.......You got it FRIEND ZONED which is exactly where you are my friend her last two responses to your requests to get together make that abundantly clear...

 

My only advice and youll learn this as you get older.. I want you to repeat these words... "WHAT IS YOUR RELATIONSHIP SITUATION" You need to know this **** upfront.. Dont feel awkward about it just ask... theyll respect you for it. Its not her job to let you know about her boyfriend sure it would have been cooler if she did but alot of times they know that if they do your not gonna be so nice to them anymore... Just start saying those words in the early stages of any interaction your in with attractive women So you wont have to ask these questions in your head all the time.. If they give you any crap or get awkward when you ask Just "SORRY I JUST LIKE TO KNOW A WOMANS SITUATION UP FRONT"

 

The reason being all those times you talked to a pretty girl but didnt escalate because you THOUGHT she had a boyfriend when she was actually single or the times LIKE THIS where you thought you were in there but she was actually dating someone.. You gotta say screw the ambiguity

 

 

And dont do all that nice supplicative **** until you at least kiss the girl bro...

 

good luck.

[musemaj11]

She probably sees you as a kid and she just enjoys the attention and validation she gets from someone much younger.

[Nick Diamond]

She probably sees you as a kid and she just enjoys the attention and validation she gets from someone much younger.

 

Seamless and muse, I understand this is a possibility; however, there are a ton of other young guys (some younger than myself) in that gym that are constantly hitting on her and trying to talk to her, and she ignores them all. Also, I'll admit that I've been guilty in the past of keeping girls around who I had no interest in at all, but enjoyed the attention, and I never gave a single one of them my number because I didn't want to take the chance of possible clinginess/annoyance from them once I was tired of it.

 

I'm not saying that you guys aren't possibly correct, because I've considered that, also ... I'm just sayin'.

[Cee]

I'm 40 and dated younger men (one 25 and one 28) and have learned that they are pretty much out for fun and aren't looking for a relationship with someone my age. I admit that I got hurt a couple of times and now I act cool and like I don't care. The woman you like might have her guard up because she doesn't trust that you are interested in her in a real way.

 

On the other hand, she might like your interest, but not attracted to you. There's no way to find out unless you ask her on a date. You don't have to declare that you're not a player. Simply be yourself and show her you enjoy her for who she is.

[Nick Diamond]

On the other hand, she might like your interest, but not attracted to you. There's no way to find out unless you ask her on a date. You don't have to declare that you're not a player. Simply be yourself and show her you enjoy her for who she is.

 

I'm having trouble coming up with a way to ask her out on a date seeing as she doesn't like committing to time constraints and is more spontaneous, so she says. Should I call her out on it and just ask her to go out right then and there?

[Sabali]

I'm having trouble coming up with a way to ask her out on a date seeing as she doesn't like committing to time constraints and is more spontaneous, so she says. Should I call her out on it and just ask her to go out right then and there?

 

 

From your description, it sounds like she is a strong woman that needs a strong man to just plow right in and tell her to join him for a drink after a workout session.

 

Don't worry, I won't do that to you. I know that you saw her first.

 

 

I am not sure but it seems like that you believe that this woman somehow needs special handling from special forces. She doesn't. She is a woman and you are a man. It's that simple.

 

Don't be intimidated by all of her credentials and special rules. You have special rules and credentials too.

 

 

Start handling her like you generally would with anyone else. In other words, be the person you are when you ask her out. If you are the timid type who waits for a whole year to ask a woman out and try to just "get to know her better" and build up her trust for you and hoping you will grow on her, you are in trouble.

 

 

CEE made some good points.

 

I think she considered you as having potential at one point but you was moving too slow. She gave you all sorts of signals but you seem to not know how to act on them.

 

Here is a scenario:

She didn't mention the other guy in all of that time because she was interested in you and was waiting for you to make a move when you finally made it, it was quite weak and she was finally able to make a disposition that was evolving over a period of time. She realized that she was not quite as attracted to as she was originally and she may as well just stick with her guy she is not committed to or just bang the more aggressive guy on the treadmill a few feet away.

 

 

Why test waters? Just jump in when it comes to your approach. Don't stick your toe in and try to feel if you may get rejected or not. Just ask her out.

 

Although you think you made a move by telling her to plan to come to your place and all, your move was sort of weak. You just threw the ball in her court every time and just did not take the steering wheel and drive this to a place where you wanted things to go. Asking her to plan to come over and to plan to meet up with you was a huge step off course.

 

You make the plans.

 

 

Be decisive. You give her the time, and you tell her what time you want to pick her up. That simple. You set up every thing. Leave nothing for her to do except be at the designated place and time. Just let her sit there and look pretty while you plan.

 

 

So lets put the nail in the coffin on this one. She gave you all sorts of signals to come at her but you stalled so long and when you finally came at her it was not really in a way that gets a woman charged. So the next time you two are working out together, after you say hi, tell her that you are going next door or down the street to grab a bite to eat...to drink...to play pool or whatever and that you want her to join you. See what she says. It's spur of the moment and she's a spur of the moment kind of gal so if she is interested, she will make time to come. If she has other plans, she should suggest something on at another time.

 

I will be cheering for you on the sidelines.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Sabali

[denise_xo]

I'm a bit younger than this woman but I'd still feel like I was cradle robbing if I dated a 25-year old. No offense to you personally, but it would just be a psychological barrier at play for me. Having said that, if it works for her and for both of you, I'll be next to Sabali cheering from the sidelines - so why don't you just give it a try and find out

[amerikajin]

Didn't read the whole thing and didn't have to. As soon as I read that she was 39 and divorced, and that you were 25 and never-married, that was enough for me. It's a bad match. I'm not saying the fact that she's a 39-y.o. divorcee automatically disqualifies her for marriage, but in your case, it does. Ideally, you will find someone who is going through a similar stage in life as you are. She's at a different point in her life, and being nice isn't going to change that.

[amerikajin]

Okay, I read it now. And now I really know she ain't the one.

 

The day after her triathlon, I went and got a cake for her. She blushed when I gave it to her and said "Oh my God, I can't believe you did this for me!" Also, she was sick with the flu last week, and I offered to pick up medicine/water for her and told her to let me know if there was anything I could do. Again, I have a hard time drawing a line for myself when it comes to showing an independent woman that I care, yet still allowing her to be independent. Either way, I'm 99% sure that she now knows I care about her.

 

You're thinking and analyzing too much. You're hoping that she digs you - that's the truth. You're hoping that she appreciates you in return, but you're not sure if she does. And the reason you're not sure is because she's not sure if she does either. Frankly, she seems a bit self-absorbed and vain, based on your description of her.

 

And oh yes, the "independent" woman. Every time I see the phrase 'independent woman' I conclude that there is a reason that these women are independent -- they want to be. They deserve to be. Relationships aren't about independence; they're about forming a bond and teamwork, and making each other happy. You're trying to make her happy, but you've never asked yourself if she's trying to make you happy. Is she trying to meet you half way?

 

Here's where it gets a little sticky, though: A couple of weeks ago, a good friend of mine who is a trainer at the gym told me that they were talking about relationships, and so she was being nosey for me and asked her if she was in one. It turns out she's been seeing someone (who is her age) for over a year, but she "isn't committed to him." I also found out from her that she tried dating another (younger) man for a couple of months during this time period, and she apparently let her guard down and he broke her heart, which happened right before she and I really started talking, coincidentally. What's interesting to me is that in the year I've known this woman, she's never once told me that she was seeing anyone … never even hinted around at it, yet, she's asked me before if I have a girlfriend. I'm sure you're all thinking "Ask her out, already!" Well, I've tried testing the waters as far as asking her out goes, but with little success. For example, I recently moved into a new condominium, and she has expressed interest in coming over to check it out. She has even helped me pick out furniture and wall art. Her exact words were "I'm very anxious to see your place." Yet, just last week, I told her that she needs to go ahead and plan on coming over one of the weekends following the Thanksgiving holidays, and her response was "I'm not a big planner … we'll talk." A couple of days later, I told her that she and I should plan a lunch date in the next couple of weeks and that I would come pick her up at work. Her response was "Sounds good … but I'm not making any promises." What the hell does that mean? To top it off, the very next day, she's talking about her Thanksgiving plans, and she tells me "I don't like to commit to things with time constraints … or anything, for that matter. I'm a more spur of the moment type of person." So apparently she's afraid of commitment, huh?

 

Everything in her life has to be on her terms. She picks and chooses things. She will decide who she dates, when, how often, for how long, where to go, and what to do. She decides everything. Yet she could well be one of these 'independent' women who gets fussy when she is convinced that she 'has to do all the work in the relationship' -- a situation that 'independent' women create for themselves, but then, being the self-absorbed women that they are, the responsibility of which gets passed on to the partner. In reality, independent women want their partners to do all the work in the relationship. Trust me, man, there's a reason she's divorced, and it's not because she was abused.

 

Any ideas on how to handle this?

 

Move on.

[Seamless74]

Yeah +1 with the move on deal ...

 

 

But remember what i said this is exactly the reason youve got to find our the relationship situation up front.. Cause now even if you asked her out and she said no... (which im sorry she will) Your still gonna have to be nice or else youll like everything youve done for her up until this point was to get in her pants (which it was) gonna be awkward and you risk blowin out the whole deal...

 

 

sorry.

[Cee]

I say go with what Sabali is saying. Ask her out. If she's interested, she'll say yes.

 

It's tempting to come up with reason why someone won't like us, but you never know. My sister is married to someone 9 years younger than her. He was never married and 26 and she was 35 and divorced, no kids, when they met. They started as friends, but they both liked each other romantically. They have been married for almost 4 years and have two children.

 

Treat her like any other woman you like and ask her out. If she says no, at least you have your answer.

 

Good luck.

[Hopeful30]

I don't think she is afraid of committment, she just doesn't want one.

 

Just follow your gut. I don't care what anyone says, it's always right, and that's how I live my life. It's never been wrong. Ask her out, if its meant to be it will happen. If not, then life goes on.

[Ruby Slippers]

It sounds like you're spending way too much mental energy on one person, and you are coddling her because you have built her up in your mind as abnormally special, which she most likely is not.

 

Ask her out, confidently. If she says no, move on. If you cool it with her, she'll probably start coming after you more. And if she doesn't, she's not that interested, anyway.

[CLS63AMG]

You're thinking too much.. A 40 year old should be EASY pickings for a 25 year old, probably easier if you were 30 but still.

 

You need to show physical attraction, affection and that you're stable and not going to leave her in the future.

 

Then she'll open up.

[Nick Diamond]

I think she considered you as having potential at one point but you was moving too slow. She gave you all sorts of signals but you seem to not know how to act on them.

 

Here is a scenario:

She didn't mention the other guy in all of that time because she was interested in you and was waiting for you to make a move when you finally made it, it was quite weak and she was finally able to make a disposition that was evolving over a period of time. She realized that she was not quite as attracted to as she was originally and she may as well just stick with her guy she is not committed to or just bang the more aggressive guy on the treadmill a few feet away.

 

In hindsight, I completely agree with you. When everything first started, I didn't really consider her to be relationship material seeing as she's 14 years older than me, so I never really pursued. But as I got to know her and be around her, I started liking her more, and it wasn't until about a month ago that I really started considering the idea of asking her out.

 

I also agree that my attempts were weak, and I don't really have an excuse for that. Keep in mind, though, she still hasn't told me about this guy she's seeing ... I only heard that through my friend. If it wasn't for her, I would still have absolutely no clue that she's seeing anyone. I like your plan, I'm just going to jump in head first on this one because honestly, as much as I like her, if the feeling isn't mutual, I don't think I can be friends with her, for a short time at least. It would be like torture having to see her every day knowing that nothing will ever happen. So why beat around the bush?

 

I'll have to wait until next week to do it because she's out of town visiting family for Thanksgiving, and I'm a face-to-face person when it comes to asking a woman out, so it will happen when she gets back. I'll let you know how it goes. Any other suggestions until then?

 

By the way, I have a question for the women in their late 30s/early 40s who have responded: how does a woman your age feel about physical contact being initiated by a younger man? Does that scream "I want to get in your pants"?

 

Thanks for all the insight from everyone, by the way!

Edited November 21, 2010 by Nick Diamond

[JaneDoe35]

I am 35. I separated from my husband after almost 15 years together August 2009. I have a 10 year old child.

 

When I finally got myself back together I started going out. I have only been able to meet men who are aged around 25. I never approach them and when they talk to me I tell them my age etc right away. I also say 'you are too young for me..

 

One in particular convinced me to date him. It didn't go well but I cannot be 100% sure that it was his age that was the problem.

 

I look quite young, late 20's maybe. Because I know that these younger men do not know that I am older than them when they approach me - I don't judge them at all.

 

I have to admit that after my experience dating that younger man I mentioned above I am reluctant to go there again.

[Brandi 2]

I am experienced when it comes to dating, asking women out, etc., but this is a totally new scenario with me. I've never been interested in an older woman, an independent woman, nor a woman who is afraid of commitment, and she is all three. Where in the hell do I go from here? Why hasn't she told me about the guy she has been seeing? And why does she openly express interest in wanting to come over/go out, yet she can't back it up? Do you think she's pulling my strings, or is she genuinely that afraid of commitment? Also, I'm wondering if she's still a little bruised from the last younger guy she dated and is being cautious. Any ideas on how to handle this?

 

I don't think it's a game. I know I am REALLY afraid of committment. I've also been hurt way too much. Don't give up.

[Ruby Slippers]

I also agree that my attempts were weak, and I don't really have an excuse for that.

 

By the way, I have a question for the women in their late 30s/early 40s who have responded: how does a woman your age feel about physical contact being initiated by a younger man? Does that scream "I want to get in your pants"?

I'm 34, and the two most interesting relationship prospects I have met for some time are guys that were 24 and 28. My defenses jumped right up when I learned their ages, but outside of that, I was very attracted to both of them (whom I knew at different times) on many levels.

 

The one big weakness they both had is they were less assertive with their approach than the 30+ guys. With the 30+ guys, it's pretty clear. With the 40+ guys, you cannot miss it. lol It makes sense -- a 20-something guy is closer to boyhood than a 30-something guy, so his balls have not yet fully descended. Metaphorically speaking, of course. And really, I interpreted their hesitation to mean they were interested in just sex, and were hanging back to let me do the work of coming to them. So I rejected them mostly in self-defense.

 

But now that I have read this forum more, I think that I may have been wrong about them.

 

Also, a friend of mine who is 39 just dated a 27-year-old guy for a while, and he was pretty crazy about her while it lasted.

 

In any case: Man up! This is the right move in any scenario.

[Nick Diamond]

A very brief ramble, and a couple of more questions:

 

This past week, she took the week off from work and the gym because her family was coming into town for Thanksgiving. My plan was to not text/call her for the duration of her time off since I assumed she would be occupied with her family, as I would mine. Also, I had to be at work Monday through Wednesday, and we never text each other during our work day. First thing Monday morning, I randomly get a text from her thanking me for some music I gave her a while back, and she tells me she's been listening to it a lot lately. From there, we talked for basically two days straight, then some on Thanksgiving, as well as yesterday. I just thought it was odd that she would send me something so random, for really no reason at all, and she never initiates texts (though she often initiates face-to-face conversation).

 

As for my questions:

 

I've been thinking over the past couple of days, and I've realized that there have been certain things I haven't taken into consideration as far as the age difference goes. For example, one thing that's always made me wonder if she's interested or not is that she never initiates phone conversation (other than what happened last week). I'm always the one to text or call first. Always. I'm so accustomed to women my age who aren't afraid to make the first move, call, text, or whatever, but I haven't really considered the fact that a woman her age expects the man to always make the first move, so as to not seem aggressive or easy. I understand that everyone is different, but am I on the right track, here? Should I be more aggressive with initiating contact? There's a fine line between aggressiveness and clinginess, and that's what I'm worried about.

 

The one big weakness they both had is they were less assertive with their approach than the 30+ guys. With the 30+ guys, it's pretty clear. With the 40+ guys, you cannot miss it.

 

Ok, so I'm taking three days off of work this week, and I won't be seeing her any of those days, so I'm wanting to ask her to lunch one day while I'm off. Instead of asking, how about "Let's do lunch Wednesday … I'll pick you up at noon." Is that assertive enough, or is it too much?

[Seamless74]

Ballsy play at this point,,, (which is waaayy late in the game)..But seriously bro you gotta do something this whole situation is getting in the way of you moving on in you life.. Sounds like your officially stuck on this one which is the worst place for a man to be (fixated on one woman)..

 

But good luck tell us how it goes.