I don't believe LS's dating "rules" work in the real world for most women

[make me believe]

1) Always let a guy do all the pursuing at first. He must initiate all/most contact. If he is slow in responding, wishy washy or shows signs of flaking at the beginning, dump.

 

This rule has ALWAYS worked for me. But I have no interest in chasing a guy, or in a guy who is too passive/insecure to actively pursue me. My fiance is not an assertiveguy in general, but he does believe in 'traditional' dating rules, where the man pursues the woman. So when we first met, HE did the calling & asking out, even though he is relatively shy & introverted.

 

2) Don't ever enter a casual relationship with a guy because it won't turn into anything more. A relationship that starts as a hookup has no potential.

 

I've found this to be true in most cases, too.

 

3) If you're not going on proper dates at first, and you start by hanging out more casually your relationship is going nowhere.

 

This one can be iffy. I think you should ideally be going on proper dates from the very beginning, because it's too easy for guys to get lazy and just want to "hang out" all the time instead of actually DATE you. In my opinion, most of the worthwhile guys will want to take you out to dinner or on other dates. The lazy ones will invite you to a group activity or to the bar or whatever. I also think that asking a girl on real dates shows a higher level of confidence. It's much easier to text someone "hey, going to the bar w/ my friends tonight, u should join!!" than to call her up & ask her out to dinner.

 

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

 

I'm undecided on this one. I think it depends on the guy. Unfortunately, there are a lot of guys out there who think it's the woman's job to say no to sex and that having sex "too soon" makes her "easy" or whatever. Those guys are obviously the ones not worth having sex with. I think waiting until exclusivity, whether that takes 3 dates or 13 dates, is best.

 

Let's take Daisy, a confident girl, who has just started dating a guy she's crazy about named Jake. He is being a bit slow to ask her out on dates. It's Saturday night and she's getting ready to go out with her girls for drinks. Without a second thought she sends Jake a text: "Hey, the crew and I are going out to x bar. You should totally come join!" When he sounds iffy, she writes back: "Aw, don't be a lameo. Come on, it'll be fun!" They banter back and forth and Jake decides to come. After a few more dates he is getting really into Daisy where before he was on the fence. Now he is doing most of the pursuing.

 

I guess that works for some people.... but I wouldn't want a guy who was "on the fence" about me in the beginning. I'm not saying he has to immediately commit or know he wants to be with me, but if he's on the fence about even getting to know me, like in this situation? NEXT!

[D-Jam]

Where did these rules come from?

 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) Always let a guy do all the pursuing at first. He must initiate all/most contact. If he is slow in responding, wishy washy or shows signs of flaking at the beginning, dump.

I can agree with this TO AN EXTENT...but I think too many women have their finger on the "LAUNCH" button and are too quick to walk on many guys when they shouldn't. I usually aim this at all the women who complain that they only meet playas. Playas are skilled in making women feel attracted to them, while average men (possibly good men) aren't.

 

Heavy insecurity I think is valid enough to walk...but one slip-up or a small bit of insecurity, not a very valid enough reason in my book.

 

2) Don't ever enter a casual relationship with a guy because it won't turn into anything more. A relationship that starts as a hookup has no potential.

I would agree here. I have yet to see it happen the other way...and it's a shame too many women make a mess of themselves thinking that they can change someone's mind with sex.

 

3) If you're not going on proper dates at first, and you start by hanging out more casually your relationship is going nowhere.

I'd say "it depends". I think a lot of guys would prefer things to be proper dating, but I notice many women want the more casual thing at first. The "take it slow" or "friends first" logic. They need to remember that guys are wired to give up when they are in the friendzone.

 

So you might think he's cute, but aren't sure what you want or have a hard time trusting so you think taking it slow will fix it all. But then you find out he's chasing other women and think he's a dog. It's not that...he just assumed he had no shot with you. This is even why I tell guys not to accept the friendzone if they want to date the girl. Walk away and leave her with the choice of all or nothing if she wants you in her life.

 

I also think any woman who needs weeks or months of "getting to know you" or "seeing him" time to decide if she wants to take it to dating is someone guys should avoid. In my book she's hot for someone else, and is dating guys out of convenience in the hopes she'll change the mind of the guy she really wants...or she's just got issues and baggage.

 

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

I dunno about this one...only because I don't believe in putting "rules" on when sex should happen.

 

I do believe if no "moves" are being made or allowed by the 4th or 5th date, then the guy or the girl will think this isn't going to happen. So either he's kept his distance for 4-5 dates and not tried, or she sort of avoids or pushes him away when he tries.

 

This is why people need to come clean soon enough. 4th or 5th date in my book is when you discuss "where is this going?" and both sides should have an answer that isn't "I don't know".

[waynebrady]

Heh, interesting. Seeing as that I'm 42 and on a dating site which I've barely used. Don't know if I'm passive or just jaded at this point. The pursuing should be 50/50. At this point in my life if I feel like I'm doing all the work for little return I next pretty quickly.

 

It's the 21st century people. We mostly all have jobs and manage our lives on our own now. Get with the program ladies.. equal rights should come with equal responsibilities.

 

I completley agree. It's easy for women to say that men should do all the pursuing. It takes alot of effort to pursue a woman, while it takes no effort for a woman to be pursued.

[musemaj11]

There is two kinds of aggressive women.

 

The desperate aggressive women and the assertive aggressive women.

 

The two are completely different.

[810]

There is two kinds of aggressive women.

 

The desperate aggressive women and the assertive aggressive women.

 

The two are completely different.

define them.

[harmfulsweetz]

I actually see the benefit of following the 'rules' and not following, it depends on the situation really, and on the guy. I've always been the girl who never did any pursuing whatsoever, because when I did, I used to think I was bugging the guy. This year, I've started to do more of the pursuing/approach after losing out to several guys in the past by taking on the passive approach. I'm not saying they were successes, or I ended up in the best situations, but I now know I am capable of approaching a guy, I have the guts to do that. Step by step at any rate, starting with small steps.

 

a) I think it shows a far more confident woman to approach and pursue than a woman who allows the guy to chase, but it has to be done right. You can't do it desperately, but like occasionally drop the guy a text/call inviting him out, or for a little chat. I'm still learning that one.

 

b) As TBF said, it depends on the mindset of the guy. If the guy was open to the idea of a relationship, it can work. If not, then no. I've seen it happen, and had it happen to me before. So it does happen, but like I said, rarely, and it can be tricky.

 

c) Disagree with this rule. Just because you hang out casually to start with, doesn't mean you can't have a good relationship. In some cases, yes. But in some cases, you can go out on real dates, and end up no better off.

 

d) Disagree with this rule also. A guy who ditches a woman after sex after say 4 dates, likely wasn't wanting all that much else to begin with.

[Mad Max]

define them.

 

 

He shouldn't have to. Anyone with half a brain should know the difference.

[musemaj11]

define them.

How would you define desperate and assertive guys? Its the same.

 

The reason that aggressive women are seen as desperate is because most of the times THEY ARE DESPERATE.

[OceanGirl]

So what you're saying, Shadow/Sky and SACWA/OG, is that it's LS's fault that you're not living happily ever after. Right??

 

Because you've religiously followed these rules and have NEVER violated them, right? Oh, but you have. You've disregarded them all along!

 

You've both initiated/chased with men. Hasn't turned out well, and you're ech left feeling sh*tty each time you do.

You've both had ONS/casual sex with a guy you wanted more from, and it didn't go where you wanted it to, again, leaving you feeling bad.

You've both agreed to casual/hanging out things, rather than real dates where effort was required. This is usually an offshoot of the casual sex/FWB situation you've chosen to get involved in. Then you get upset when he doesn't change his established pattern of casual/no effort.

You've both had sex way too soon many times (Shadow, before the first date; OG, around the 3rd, and you're the initiator), and each time, you ended up being categorized as either a FWB, or not a serious relationship prospect, and hurt as a result.

 

So, do you really think that CONTINUING to disregard these purported LS rules is going to do you any good? Because it really hasn't done you any good up until now.

 

Just want to address the bolded. Yes we have pursued in the WRONG way. We have pursued by being heavily emotional rather than light hearted and flirty.

 

The funny thing is, I AM Daisy with the guys I am not that attracted to. I behave exactly like that. Because I am not that attracted to the guy, if I am dating him or even am just friends with him - my usual insecurities are not triggered. I also over-analyze much less. I shoot him a text, then forget about it. I ask him to come along to something then tease if he can't and continue our interaction unphased - rather than withdrawing and crying at home. And without fail ALL those guys end up falling for me and pursuing me long after I end things (Remember that musician that I met online like 4 months ago and only had few dates with? He is STILL pursuing me).

 

So I have it in me to be Daisy. The problem is, when I am very attracted to the guy - I get timid, self conscious, read into things too much, get butt hurt at any perceived slight etc etc I contact him and chase him but out of insecurity rather than confidence. I tell him things like "You don't have to see me if you are not interested" in an emotional voice. This is ALL wrong. Given what I present to them, I am not surprised those guys don't end up falling for me.

 

I have to emulate my natural personality (the way I am with friends, family and guys I am not that into) with the guys I am into. It is that simple and key to everything. Sure, I may not succeed with every one, but I am sure as hell my chances will go way up.

 

 

I am going to attempt this on my Monday's date.

[LittleTiger]

This is possibly one of the best advice I've ever seen here.

 

Thanks for the compliment Elswyth.

[Star Gazer]

There is two kinds of aggressive women.

 

The desperate aggressive women and the assertive aggressive women.

 

The two are completely different.

 

Kinda.

 

There's the aggressive desperate woman, and the assertive (non-aggressive) woman.

 

I really don't think an assertive woman is aggressive. Aggression, IMO, is rooted in fear. A desperate woman is fearful. An assertive woman who knows what she wants and will easily walk if she doesn't get it isn't fearful.

 

***

 

Consistent with TBF's belief and her husband's actions: I think you'll be hard pressed to find a confident (i.e., not insecure), assertive (i.e., not passive) man who's happy with himself (i.e., not depressed/sad/bitter) who needs or even wants a woman to initiate/chase in the very beginning stages. Why? Because such a man will have already made his interest known, and will be consistent about it.

[Star Gazer]

Just want to address the bolded. Yes we have pursued in the WRONG way. We have pursued by being heavily emotional rather than light hearted and flirty.

 

The funny thing is, I AM Daisy with the guys I am not that attracted to. I behave exactly like that. Because I am not that attracted to the guy, if I am dating him or even am just friends with him - my usual insecurities are not triggered. I also over-analyze much less. I shoot him a text, then forget about it. I ask him to come along to something then tease if he can't and continue our interaction unphased - rather than withdrawing and crying at home. And without fail ALL those guys end up falling for me and pursuing me long after I end things (Remember that musician that I met online like 4 months ago and only had few dates with? He is STILL pursuing me).

 

So I have it in me to be Daisy. The problem is, when I am very attracted to the guy - I get timid, self conscious, read into things too much, get butt hurt at any perceived slight etc etc I contact him and chase him but out of insecurity rather than confidence. I tell him things like "You don't have to see me if you are not interested" in an emotional voice. This is ALL wrong. Given what I present to them, I am not surprised those guys don't end up falling for me.

 

I have to emulate my natural personality (the way I am with friends, family and guys I am not that into) with the guys I am into. It is that simple and key to everything. Sure, I may not succeed with every one, but I am sure as hell my chances will go way up.

 

 

I am going to attempt this on my Monday's date.

 

No, sorry. You're NOT Daisy. To be blunt, who cares what you do when you're not all that into a guy? What matters is how you act and feel when you are!

 

The point is, Daisy acts that way with guys she IS super into. She's not frustrated with love. She's not desperate to find a man. She doesn't play games. She doesn't analyze his every move. She doesn't test him. You are not Daisy, OG... And you can't PRETEND you are.

[musemaj11]

The funny thing is, I AM Daisy with the guys I am not that attracted to. I behave exactly like that. Because I am not that attracted to the guy, if I am dating him or even am just friends with him - my usual insecurities are not triggered. I also over-analyze much less. I shoot him a text, then forget about it. I ask him to come along to something then tease if he can't and continue our interaction unphased - rather than withdrawing and crying at home. And without fail ALL those guys end up falling for me and pursuing me long after I end things (Remember that musician that I met online like 4 months ago and only had few dates with? He is STILL pursuing me).

 

So I have it in me to be Daisy. The problem is, when I am very attracted to the guy - I get timid, self conscious, read into things too much, get butt hurt at any perceived slight etc etc I contact him and chase him but out of insecurity rather than confidence. I tell him things like "You don't have to see me if you are not interested" in an emotional voice. This is ALL wrong. Given what I present to them, I am not surprised those guys don't end up falling for me.

As a response to 810 of the difference between assertive aggressiveness and desperate aggressiveness,

 

The top part is the behavior of an assertive aggressive woman. That type of women is the equivalent of male players. They have the 'I want you and if you say no, no problem I will find someone else' attitude. These women intimidate and earn respect from men.

 

While the bottom part is the behavior of a desperate aggressive woman. This type of women have the 'I want you and please Im begging you to be with me' attitude. Men dont respect them and are just going to use them.

 

I really don't think an assertive woman is aggressive. Aggression, IMO, is rooted in fear. A desperate woman is fearful. An assertive woman who knows what she wants and will easily walk if she doesn't get it isn't fearful.

It all comes down to one's definition of aggression.

[810]

He shouldn't have to. Anyone with half a brain should know the difference.

i was just giving him a hard time.

 

The reason that aggressive women are seen as desperate is because most of the times THEY ARE DESPERATE.

i agree with you. it seems to be true. a desperate woman would assert/impose herself upon a guy to show her interests.

 

Consistent with TBF's belief and her husband's actions: I think you'll be hard pressed to find a confident (i.e., not insecure), assertive (i.e., not passive) man who's happy with himself (i.e., not depressed/sad/bitter) who needs or even wants a woman to initiate/chase in the very beginning stages. Why? Because such a man will have already made his interest known, and will be consistent about it.

 

ditto!

[sumdude]

Consistent with TBF's belief and her husband's actions: I think you'll be hard pressed to find a confident (i.e., not insecure), assertive (i.e., not passive) man who's happy with himself (i.e., not depressed/sad/bitter) who needs or even wants a woman to initiate/chase in the very beginning stages. Why? Because such a man will have already made his interest known, and will be consistent about it.

 

Amusing from a one sided perspective. While this may be true there's also the possibility that said man might not actively looking or paying attention at the time. So if a woman finds herself especially interested and does nothing they both could miss out on something great.

 

Personally I think there's a certain amount of entitlement complex to the idea that women should always be the pursued.

[Jannah]

ASSERTIVE:

 

1. confidently aggressive or self-assured; positive: aggressive; dogmatic

2. having a distinctive or pronounced taste or aroma.

 

Based on number 2, if you have a distinctive "aroma" (which could be your own natural body odor).....then you are deemed assertive.

[Star Gazer]

Personally I think there's a certain amount of entitlement complex to the idea that women should always be the pursued.

 

No one ever said "always." Just at the very beginning.

 

I think there's a "wimpy guy" complex to the idea that men shouldn't be responsible for asserting themselves and making their interest known.

[Cracker Jack]

Damn, Star! Stop making so much damn sense!!

 

But yeah, I find the "rules" kinda funny.

[sumdude]

No one ever said "always." Just at the very beginning.

 

I think there's a "wimpy guy" complex to the idea that men shouldn't be responsible for asserting themselves and making their interest known.

 

LOL had to pull that one out didn't ya? Oy vey..

 

C'mon the modern model for a relationship is that both work, both share child care responsibilities, both pick up paint brushes and tools to fix up the house etcetera etcetera. So let's also share the burden for getting a potential relationship started as well eh?

[Star Gazer]

Most of the rules posted are subject to debate. Here are my core relationship and dating rules:

 

1. Seek love from outside sources only after you love yourself and have a rich, full life. Meet or come close to meeting your personal goals in life before making a romantic relationship a goal. Never expect a relationship to patch holes in your life nor attempt to use a relationship to patch holes in the lives of others. Seek a relationship partner who also has a rich, full preexisting life.

 

2. Have an active social life that involves meaningful family, friend, acquaintance, and organizational relationships before pursuing a romantic relationship. Never allow a relationship to subvert your preexisting social life. Do not think of relationships as a substitute for a social life.

 

3. After meeting a new dating prospect, maintain a low level of contact at first, and make as much of that contact in person as possible. Avoid frequent texting and phone calls until in person meetings have led to or near an exclusive dating relationship.

 

4. Meet several dating prospects at once, don't stop with one. Use every means at your disposal to always be meeting new dating prospects. Never put your eggs in one basket until that basket earns your eggs. Avoid those who want an instant relationship early in the process. Be open and honest with prospective dates, especially about the fact when you are seeing others, but not needlessly disclosing. Keep early conversations during dates and elsewhere light, flirty and fun, and avoid grilling early dates or heavy topics and heavy conversations generally. Learn to get to know people through experiencing them and their treatment of you rather than applying preconceived notions about them.

 

5. Do not confuse sex with relationships. Sex is a component of a relationship, and should not be the foundation of it. Outside relationships, conduct yourself sexually as you expect a prospective partner would, be consistent and show self-control in your sexual habits. Do not represent yourself as something you are not or rationalize the nature of your sex life to prospective partners. Own your actions.

 

6. Set the tone for how you want your relationship to be in early dating. Be proactive and expect some proactivity from prospective partners. Seek balance in effort, avoiding passivity and overassertiveness. Avoid those who are overly passive or too aggressive.

 

7. Treat mechanical relationship rules of thumb and advice as mere guidelines to be adopted to your personal style (the rules above are -not- mechanical rules but substantive rules, mechanical rules include "who pays" "who makes physical advances" etc.)

 

The "rules" in the OP are designed to help insecure, low self-esteem people pretend to be confident. Confident people don't need rules, because they instinctively know how to behave with other people. Put together a confident person and an insecure person and you'll have two very, very confused people, because each person sees the other as not behaving in the "right" way.

 

All of these rules (and the overwhelming majority of dating books out there) try to treat the symptoms, rather than the cause. Work on yourself, solve your self-esteem problems, and dating won't be so hard. Or so dramatic.

 

Two of the best posts in this thread so far, IMO... And they're from MEN. Ladies, are you listening?

 

It's not about some silly "rules" or playing some role or part of the outwardly confident woman. It's about actually BEING a happy, confident, secure woman with a full, fun, fulfilling life. One who isn't fearful of "losing" some idealized stranger she just met and has convinced herself for the moment that there's this awesome connection there, but rather one who knows what she wants and is happy and content meeting new people and getting to know them for who they really are to see if they're truly compatible together, and who actually enjoys the getting-to-know-you process. THAT is what attracts a man. Not some rubric of do this, do that.

 

But going back to the pursue/chase thing and something else TBF mentioned... She and I are attracted to assertive men, so allowing a man to pursue/initiate/take charge in the very beginning works for us. We don't find ourselves attracted to passive men, or men who would ever be iffy or "on the fence" about us.

 

What I find interesting about your "new" attitudes, Shadow/Sky and SACWA/OG, is that you BOTH have this inherent need to KNOW that the guy in question is into you. You want to see action. Right or wrong, that's your need. How is that you think you're going to fill that need by taking the onus of pursuit upon yourself?

 

And more importantly, why would you EVER want to date someone who was on the fence about you? Why would you EVER want to be in a position where you had to "convince" a guy to like you?

 

Y'all are still engaging in emotional manipulation. It won't work.

[threebyfate]

LOL had to pull that one out didn't ya? Oy vey..

 

C'mon the modern model for a relationship is that both work, both share child care responsibilities, both pick up paint brushes and tools to fix up the house etcetera etcetera. So let's also share the burden for getting a potential relationship started as well eh?

How far do you take political ideology? Myself, it's primarily focused in the work place. The balance is between two individuals who share similar beliefs in dating, relationships and marriage, whatever those might be.

 

Mercy dating or equity dating aren't terribly realistic.

[Star Gazer]

LOL had to pull that one out didn't ya? Oy vey..

 

C'mon the modern model for a relationship is that both work, both share child care responsibilities, both pick up paint brushes and tools to fix up the house etcetera etcetera. So let's also share the burden for getting a potential relationship started as well eh?

 

Of course the burden is shared. It takes two. But like many other aspects of a relationship, the two ROLES are different. In the attraction phase, he pursues, she accepts/responds favorably. A relationship won't get off the ground without both keeping up their end.

[Star Gazer]

Mercy dating or equity dating aren't terribly realistic.

 

Ha! Well put.

[NoLongerSad]

...for women.

 

 

 

Swallow.

[waynebrady]

Of course the burden is shared. It takes two. But like many other aspects of a relationship, the two ROLES are different. In the attraction phase, he pursues, she accepts/responds favorably. A relationship won't get off the ground without both keeping up their end.

 

But it is alot easier for women so you can't say the burden is shared. You don't take any initatives, You don't put in any effort or strive to be with the man. Men do all the chasing, initiate every contact, sets up every date, and puts in all the effort to make it to a relationship.

 

What do you think is easier, pursuing or being pursued? Relationships get off the ground mainly because of the man, it's the man who puts in all the effort to make it a reltionship.