I don't believe LS's dating "rules" work in the real world for most women

[northern_sky]

After three years of believing in these rules, I am losing my faith. Because everywhere I look in the real world, I only see relationships born out of exceptions.

 

The LS rules make a lot of sense in theory, and they do work well for some women, but there are deep flaws in logic behind them.

 

Here is the LS wisdom for how women should act during the early courtship:

 

1) Always let a guy do all the pursuing at first. He must initiate all/most contact. If he is slow in responding, wishy washy or shows signs of flaking at the beginning, dump.

 

2) Don't ever enter a casual relationship with a guy because it won't turn into anything more. A relationship that starts as a hookup has no potential.

 

3) If you're not going on proper dates at first, and you start by hanging out more casually your relationship is going nowhere.

 

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

 

I'll break down the assumptions behind these rules. A) Pursuing a guy makes you appear unconfident to him and also makes you feel bad about yourself. B) If you do the chasing, you don't get a sense of his interest, because you're not letting him do the work. C) You want somebody who is really into you off the bat, because it's not going to get better. D) Guys lose respect for women who give it up too soon.

 

While these assumptions sound logical, I'm going to disagree with all of them because they lack a fundamental understanding of human nature.

 

A) *The right kind* of pursuing actually appears confident in my opinion, based on the male responses I've observed. I wouldn't call myself confident, but I know plenty of girls who are and I've watched their behavior around men they like. Not only are they flirty, but many of them will do more than half of the initiating early on. But it's always done in a breezy manner.

 

Let's take Daisy, a confident girl, who has just started dating a guy she's crazy about named Jake. He is being a bit slow to ask her out on dates. It's Saturday night and she's getting ready to go out with her girls for drinks. Without a second thought she sends Jake a text: "Hey, the crew and I are going out to x bar. You should totally come join!" When he sounds iffy, she writes back: "Aw, don't be a lameo. Come on, it'll be fun!" They banter back and forth and Jake decides to come. After a few more dates he is getting really into Daisy where before he was on the fence. Now he is doing most of the pursuing.

 

Of course this doesn't always work, but my point is it has a higher success rate than LS would lead you to believe. A lot of people just go with the flow early on. They like having decisions made for them, but they will second guess if there is too much time to mull things over and if the work is all on them.

 

Dating is all about momentum. If things drag at first, they're likely to die because it gives people who are unsure more time to second guess whether they like somebody. It also gives them time to meet other prospects who may be more aggressive in their pursuit. When people let their minds wander, they tend to fork down negative paths. The important point is that this doubting happens before they really know the other person, so they could easily be wrong that there isn't strong potential there. But in some cases if the girl doesn't push them over the fence, they will never give it a go to actually make an informed decision.

 

This is backed up by my real life experience. I've talked to many guys who say they weren't into a girl at first but she pursued them heavily and they changed their minds only to fall for her. Often times, she was the one who ultimately rejected them and ended the relationship.

 

B) True, but the fact that his interest may be low at first doesn't mean that it has to stay there. Interest is highly malleable early on. So assessing his initial interest doesn't mean much, or it shouldn't be used as a conclusive factor.

 

C) See B.

 

D) This is only true for some guys. There are many who enter relationships with women that started in what seemed a ONS.

 

The problem with the LS rules is they can backfire by making a woman overly anxious and inconsistent in her behavior. Most women can't keep them up religiously, and as a result they act erratic. They'll do something from the rules and then backpedal. The guys interpret this as craziness/drama and are put off. And even if women follow the rules to a T, they may be missing out on great relationships by not putting more effort in.

 

I know there are a couple of users on LS for whom these rules have worked out spendidly. And these are some of my favorite users, but they're also women who are such great catches that they can afford to put in less effort. I don't think it's a one size fits all formula.

 

At least that's my take.

[utterer of lies]

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

 

Bull****. If there's no sex on the first or second date, there will be no more dates.

[LittleTiger]

The reason the 'rules' don't work, is because there are no rules!

 

There are thousands of millions of people on this planet and every single one of us is unique.

 

If you approach any new relationship, romantic or otherwise, with a completely open mind, be open, honest and respectful and focus on the positives you will allow that relationship to become the best that it can be. Maybe it will become a long term friendship, maybe the person will turn out to be your soul mate. Maybe not.

 

This is why people often say Mr/Ms Right appeared when they weren't looking......because, just for a while, they forgot about 'the rules' and consequently presented the best of themselves to the world.....and when you do that, you get the best back.

 

It's not rocket science. Thieves hang about with thieves. Be the sort of person you would want to marry (or spend your life with) and you'll attract similar people.

 

Whatever you do, forget about the 'rules' as presented on LS or anywhere else. Remember - most people on the LS dating section are single! 'The blind leading the blind'.

[threebyfate]

1) Always let a guy do all the pursuing at first. He must initiate all/most contact. If he is slow in responding, wishy washy or shows signs of flaking at the beginning, dump.

 

Agree with this one IF you want a more assertive man. These are the kinds of men I'm attracted to, so this style has worked well for me.

 

Even with H., when I had friends invite him to our annual NYE party, he took charge by getting my number immediately from my friend and then set everything up through a direct call to me. We ended up going to both our NYE parties and the rest, well, bore Bump!

 

Had I not gotten my friends to invite him, he already had plans to find out about me from them so the quasi-initiating on my part only sped up the process, instead of defined it.

 

But if you're not looking for an assertive man, then this is a different ballgame, one I'm not familiar with.

 

2) Don't ever enter a casual relationship with a guy because it won't turn into anything more. A relationship that starts as a hookup has no potential.

 

Depends. Was it really initiated as an ONS or was it a first date where hot and heavy took charge? A guy looking for an ONS isn't likely to be in the same frame of mind as a guy who's open to relationship possibilities.

 

3) If you're not going on proper dates at first, and you start by hanging out more casually your relationship is going nowhere.

 

Refer to response in item #2.

 

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

 

Disagree. Refer to response in item #2.

[OceanGirl]

I absolutely know women in real life that do approach A and they are some of the most successful women that have their pick of men. My high school best friend was exactly like Daisy and was always in LTRs and always the one to leave (and is happily married now).

 

The key here is light hearted, teasing but confident pursuit rather than heavy emotional one. You invite the guy to do things but don't get butt hurt if he can't make it. You don't go for any heavy talks of defining the relationship or how interested he is. You confidently initiate contact when you feel like it.

 

Most men are actually pretty indecisive. I know that this will seem like a sweeping generalization. In fact, not only men but most humans don't know what they want. Thus if you do know what you want and confidently pursue it, you have a pretty good chance of getting it.

 

For most women, unless they are drop dead gorgeous goddesses, men don't just take one look at them and start relentless pursuit. It's more like: yeah she is cute but so is girl B, C and D. Out of the 4 girls, the one that ends up with him is usually the most aggressive one. I have lost time and time again to more aggressive girls while I sat at home and second guessed myself.

[OceanGirl]

TBF,

 

I agree with you but assertive men like your H are in minority and usually don't stay single for long. If I waited for such a man to come along, I would probably wait forever.

 

Most men that are single and on the market (especially past 30 and ESPECIALLY on dating sites) are unfortunately passive to the varying degree. I can deal with some passivity as long as there are other traits that I like. With those men, light hearted aggressive pursuit is the best bet.

[OceanGirl]

"Aw, don't be a lameo. Come on, it'll be fun!"

 

this one really made me LOL shadow.

[threebyfate]

I agree with you but assertive men like your H are in minority and usually don't stay single for long.

Don't disagree with you. Of the men I dated when single, they're all in relationships or have gotten married since, except for the actor.

 

If I waited for such a man to come along, I would probably wait forever.

Depends. Right place and time, as well as the size of your social network which includes the number of 30 to 40 something single men within it.

 

Most men that are single and on the market (especially past 30 and ESPECIALLY on dating sites) are unfortunately passive to the varying degree. I can deal with some passivity as long as there are other traits that I like. With those men, light hearted aggressive pursuit is the best bet.

I can't comment on dating sites beyond wondering about these guys.

 

Best to decide what kind of man you need, in order to be happy in a long-term relationship. For myself, passivity is a deal-breaker and leads to loss of respect and turn-off. But you and I aren't the same person so we'll probably have differing needs.

[tigressA]

I agree with TBF about the ONS/relationship thing. She brought up a very good point about mindset and what things were initiated as. Of course relationships have been born from ONSs, but from what I've seen they're few and far between.

 

I've had sex early on (within 3 dates) several times, and not once was I rejected afterward. Two out of 3 times, things developed into a relationship. The one constant: the guys expressed clear, serious interest in me by asking me out on dates, not to just "hang out". If you agree to being treated casually by a guy you're interested in, most of the time you're not going to get anything more out of him.

[OceanGirl]

Have you ever dated a passive man TBF?

 

Out of all the men I have met on a dating site, I would say that ALL fell into the passive category (again to the varying degrees). Trying to get a semi-passive man to strongly pursue you is an exercise in futility.

[threebyfate]

Dated one? No.

[flashy]

I find it fascinating that the women in this thread are saying that they like aggresive men that pursue them. That take charge. Perhaps you could read my thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t253979/ because I'm feeling myself needing to be more pursuent yet, I find myself needing the girl to pursue me back. Years ago I would just alpha girls into hanging out with me but that was before my recent long term relationship and now I have trouble gauging what is pursuing a girl and what is acting like a cave man. I guess I have to admit I fear rejection lateley.

Edited November 19, 2010 by flashy

[Els]

The reason the 'rules' don't work, is because there are no rules!

 

There are thousands of millions of people on this planet and every single one of us is unique.

 

If you approach any new relationship, romantic or otherwise, with a completely open mind, be open, honest and respectful and focus on the positives you will allow that relationship to become the best that it can be. Maybe it will become a long term friendship, maybe the person will turn out to be your soul mate. Maybe not.

 

This is why people often say Mr/Ms Right appeared when they weren't looking......because, just for a while, they forgot about 'the rules' and consequently presented the best of themselves to the world.....and when you do that, you get the best back.

 

It's not rocket science. Thieves hang about with thieves. Be the sort of person you would want to marry (or spend your life with) and you'll attract similar people.

 

Whatever you do, forget about the 'rules' as presented on LS or anywhere else. Remember - most people on the LS dating section are single! 'The blind leading the blind'.

 

This is possibly one of the best advice I've ever seen here.

[zengirl]

1) Always let a guy do all the pursuing at first. He must initiate all/most contact. If he is slow in responding, wishy washy or shows signs of flaking at the beginning, dump.

 

If anyone is slow in responding -- myself or him -- in the beginning (consistently; one incident that correlated with an unexpected delay in communication or something is different), then I know the relationship will not work out. Slow to me means that if the fellow doesn't respond to my messages within 12-24 hours and doesn't ask me out consistently (1-2 times a week in the beginning).

 

If he is too slow, either his interest level isn't high enough, or our styles won't mesh and I can't feel comfortable. No go. If I find myself slow in getting back to him, then I know my interest level isn't high enough either.

 

All of that said, I do think men should persue. That doesn't mean to me that he must do EVERYTHING. I give men who persue me (who I'm interested in) plenty of encouragement without taking the lead. I believe these early days are like a dance, and one person does need to lead---the very adept can switch back and forth, maybe, and certainly couples can do that once they're together and know each other---and I know that when it's me, I don't like the way that feels. I didn't mind it when I was younger, but I don't think it's a good foundation for marriage. This rule, to me, is most important if you're looking for a relationship that leads to marriage. There is a difference between more casual LTRs and those.

 

If a woman prefers to take the lead and can find a man who follows well, more power to her; most women aren't happy in those situations is what I've observed throughout life and the kind of men that are better followers often have some ambivalence about following that hinders the relationship. Most men I know personally who are happily married have wives who encouraged them to persue (consciously or unconsciously), even the shy ones, and thus made them feel more empowered as men.

 

2) Don't ever enter a casual relationship with a guy because it won't turn into anything more. A relationship that starts as a hookup has no potential.

 

I've seen many relationships that start as hook-ups turn into more---but the key was that it started as a mutual hookup and happened to turn into more. I've never seen a girl who started a relationship as a hookup (but really wanted a relationship) get what she wanted long-term. Maybe she'd get a relationship, even for a year or two, but it'd be tumultuous, frustrating, and ultimately over. I've never seen them be happy. However, I have friends who are married who didn't see their relationship as serious at the start and both grew to that point together. The key for most women in a relationship is not to push too hard and that's what a lot of these rules you listed help them do.

 

3) If you're not going on proper dates at first, and you start by hanging out more casually your relationship is going nowhere.

 

Depends on your age, really. Most young relationships do start with "hanging out" and some of those college kids stay together forever. At my age. . . eh, I expect real dates, unless we were friends first or something. I see two routes: Real Dates or Friends First.

 

There are also the casual routes, but you have to genuinely be interested in the possibility of something ONLY CASUAL for that to work; no one should attempt to "try" to be casual. If you aren't, you aren't, and it'll only frustrate you, as a woman. Men are just different in this way from most women.

 

4) If you have sex with a guy before the 4/5th date, he will not take you seriously.

 

No. I do agree it's a bad idea to do so. I'd say that men judge on first date sex, maybe second date sex for a select few, but after that, there's no real judgement whatsoever. That's not the reason it's advisable to wait----the reason is that women think more clearly before sex, so women who hold off on sex until they know this guy is serious are more likely not to be frustrated and jilted later. Again, this depends on what the woman is looking for or what stage she's in.

 

I'll break down the assumptions behind these rules. A) Pursuing a guy makes you appear unconfident to him and also makes you feel bad about yourself. B) If you do the chasing, you don't get a sense of his interest, because you're not letting him do the work. C) You want somebody who is really into you off the bat, because it's not going to get better. D) Guys lose respect for women who give it up too soon.

 

I'd say only A and B are really it, but it's about so many other things. Mostly, it's about good judgement. You can always do more later, but you can't take away what you've done, and women who are frustrated in love tend to overdo it, rather than underdo it. Of course, you can underdo it too, but it's much rarer.

 

A) *The right kind* of pursuing actually appears confident in my opinion, based on the male responses I've observed. I wouldn't call myself confident, but I know plenty of girls who are and I've watched their behavior around men they like. Not only are they flirty, but many of them will do more than half of the initiating early on. But it's always done in a breezy manner.

 

Sure, but not all women can pull this off. In fact, it's very hard to learn. And the women like Daisy aren't frustrated in love. Though I disagree if you mean that women do more than half the official asking out in the beginning---generally this breezy manner means that women encourage men to ask them out. For instance, I've "picked men up" but I don't do it like a man; I will flirt with a guy and then ask if he'd like to call me, giving him the chance to ask for my phone number and call me. I gave him a safe space to initiate, but to me, it's not initiating. This allows him the boost of testosterone he'd get from pursuing while also the confidence to make the move easily without ambivalence.

 

Let's take Daisy, a confident girl, who has just started dating a guy she's crazy about named Jake. He is being a bit slow to ask her out on dates. It's Saturday night and she's getting ready to go out with her girls for drinks. Without a second thought she sends Jake a text: "Hey, the crew and I are going out to x bar. You should totally come join!" When he sounds iffy, she writes back: "Aw, don't be a lameo. Come on, it'll be fun!" They banter back and forth and Jake decides to come. After a few more dates he is getting really into Daisy where before he was on the fence. Now he is doing most of the pursuing.

 

That sounds like it might work in college, but is Jake really marriage material? To me, it sounds like no. Daisy could do better if she's truly an adult.

 

Dating is all about momentum. If things drag at first, they're likely to die because it gives people who are unsure more time to second guess whether they like somebody. It also gives them time to meet other prospects who may be more aggressive in their pursuit. When people let their minds wander, they tend to fork down negative paths. The important point is that this doubting happens before they really know the other person, so they could easily be wrong that there isn't strong potential there. But in some cases if the girl doesn't push them over the fence, they will never give it a go to actually make an informed decision.

 

Very true, and I actually think it's important to allow some relationships to have that space to "die" if they will if you're looking for something truly long-term. Trying to build your own momentum by pushing a guy = not a forever relationship.

 

This is backed up by my real life experience. I've talked to many guys who say they weren't into a girl at first but she pursued them heavily and they changed their minds only to fall for her. Often times, she was the one who ultimately rejected them and ended the relationship.

 

Because they weren't marriage material or long-term material, they weren't making her happy, and she needed to move along. That makes sense to me. Those are the guys that could wind up in that situation. The thing is, a man has to have a certain amount of ability to persue in order to become a good LT prospect, and even shy guys will develop that. I've seen that many times, including with my current boyfriend who is extremely shy. He still persued me. Sometimes it takes time for them to grow up and grow into it, sometimes it takes the right women. . . but men can come into their own, even if they're generally shy and awkward, and they need to do that at some point, before they're ready to get married. That's what I've observed.

 

B) True, but the fact that his interest may be low at first doesn't mean that it has to stay there. Interest is highly malleable early on. So assessing his initial interest doesn't mean much, or it shouldn't be used as a conclusive factor.

 

I don't want to date anyone with low interest, personally. Even if I could increase it. Nor will I date anyone I have low interest in. Women's passivity is not necessarily a sign of low interest (if they are engaged in the relationship in other ways---men should be able to assess their interest through their responsiveness, punctuality, respect, and behavior on dates fairly easily), but I'd never encourage a man to persue a woman who was flaky with him either, just because he "could" increase her interest. Could he? Sure. But, why?

 

C) See B.

 

D) This is only true for some guys. There are many who enter relationships with women that started in what seemed a ONS.

 

Agree with you completely on D. Though, personally, I hate sleeping with people who I eventually break up with in less than a year, so I wait a bit.

 

The problem with the LS rules is they can backfire by making a woman overly anxious and inconsistent in her behavior. Most women can't keep them up religiously, and as a result they act erratic. They'll do something from the rules and then backpedal. The guys interpret this as craziness/drama and are put off. And even if women follow the rules to a T, they may be missing out on great relationships by not putting more effort in.

 

Right, women generally need (a) their own lives, (b) inner peace, © the feeling they don't "need" a man (i.e. not filling a slot. . . I'm not saying it in the loud, angry way, but no man wants to be just a dude filling your need for a man; he wants to be special to you if it's a LTR), and (d) lots of self-respect and good judgment. But those rules can help women who are "learning" these skills, if they don't just stop there and keep trying to improve themselves and their interpersonal skills.

[Els]

Just wanted to add; I believe in general 'across-the-board' rules that apply to 99% of cases. Don't be desperate, be interesting and fun, have a life of your own, respect the other person and expect the same in return, etc. But stuff like 'You should have sex not earlier than 3 dates because otherwise he will think you're cheap but not later than 6 dates so that he doesn't think you're uninterested'... c'mon! What are we in, kindergarten? Gotta color the star a bright yellow, not go out of the lines and fill up the background with a color, otherwise you'll fail the art class? People and real life aren't homogenous and predictable enough to follow an exact set of rules. The exact same action will put guy A off, not really affect guy B and help you and guy C get together.

[waynebrady]

I absolutely know women in real life that do approach A and they are some of the most successful women that have their pick of men. My high school best friend was exactly like Daisy and was always in LTRs and always the one to leave (and is happily married now).

 

The key here is light hearted, teasing but confident pursuit rather than heavy emotional one. You invite the guy to do things but don't get butt hurt if he can't make it. You don't go for any heavy talks of defining the relationship or how interested he is. You confidently initiate contact when you feel like it.

 

Good post. A confident woman will have no problem with initiating contact and doing some pursuing. A woman who confidently initiates contact with a man and pursues him in a light hearted way, can't fail if the man likes her. A woman who pursues a man in a desperate and overly-emotional way will probably fail.

 

And just because a woman get rejected when taking the initative, doesn't mean that she got rejected because she took the initative. It can simply mean that the man wasn't very intrested in her. Rejection is a risk when taking the initative... Men have to face rejection all the time. Women don't. And it is unfair imo but I know it's unlikely to change anytime soon.

 

A confident woman will not stay passive and play hard to get. And I'd like to add that just because a woman makes the first move doesn't mean that she will have to do all the chasing, if the man likes her it will go both ways, sometimes he initiates, sometimes she initiates. It's different from when men makes the first move, then he will usually have to do all the chasing and intiate everything at all times. I know women prefer when men put in all the effort and initiates all the contact, but few men actually like doing it. Alot of men want the woman to put in effort aswell and take atleast some initiatives.

[Star Gazer]

So what you're saying, Shadow/Sky and SACWA/OG, is that it's LS's fault that you're not living happily ever after. Right??

 

Because you've religiously followed these rules and have NEVER violated them, right? Oh, but you have. You've disregarded them all along!

 

You've both initiated/chased with men. Hasn't turned out well, and you're ech left feeling sh*tty each time you do.

You've both had ONS/casual sex with a guy you wanted more from, and it didn't go where you wanted it to, again, leaving you feeling bad.

You've both agreed to casual/hanging out things, rather than real dates where effort was required. This is usually an offshoot of the casual sex/FWB situation you've chosen to get involved in. Then you get upset when he doesn't change his established pattern of casual/no effort.

You've both had sex way too soon many times (Shadow, before the first date; OG, around the 3rd, and you're the initiator), and each time, you ended up being categorized as either a FWB, or not a serious relationship prospect, and hurt as a result.

 

So, do you really think that CONTINUING to disregard these purported LS rules is going to do you any good? Because it really hasn't done you any good up until now.

[Star Gazer]

Sure, but not all women can pull this off. In fact, it's very hard to learn. And the women like Daisy aren't frustrated in love.

 

That's the thing, Shadow/Sky and SACWA/OG... You could never pull this off for this reason. The confident/playful thing? That's just not you guys.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I agree with Little Tiger.

 

"Rules" for interpersonal relationships are really guidelines for those who need them, and many of us do.

 

They are NOT hard and fast, and if you try to look at it as "black and white" you are likely to fail. Why? Mostly because you are using the whole construct to "catch" a man and therefore are not really paying attention to the man in question or all the cues he is undoubtedly sending your way. Also, you may not be paying attention to YOURSELF, either, and the real intuitive stuff going on within you, your actual wishes and needs regarding a relationship, etc. Or, to the dynamic between the two people involved

 

Success is skewed in favor of those who are confident in themselves ... not so much because other people are attracted to that (they are), but because such a woman will KNOW what she wants. If she decides not to follow "rules" and goes ahead and sleeps with a guy she just met because she feels like it, for example, she is likely to be okay with whatever the outcome.

 

When many of us break the "rules," an immediate backlash of self doubt and faulty analysis ensues. No relationship is going to take root and grow out of that.

 

"To thine own self be true."

[Mme. Chaucer]

Also - the example with "Daisy" was spot on - a woman who knows who she is, what she would like, and who is acting like herself.

 

An insecure, shy, needy person trying to emulate this behavior could well come off as desperate or so awkward that undecipherable warning bells might activate within her target fellow's brain.

[sanskrit]

Most of the rules posted are subject to debate. Here are my core relationship and dating rules:

 

1. Seek love from outside sources only after you love yourself and have a rich, full life. Meet or come close to meeting your personal goals in life before making a romantic relationship a goal. Never expect a relationship to patch holes in your life nor attempt to use a relationship to patch holes in the lives of others. Seek a relationship partner who also has a rich, full preexisting life.

 

2. Have an active social life that involves meaningful family, friend, acquaintance, and organizational relationships before pursuing a romantic relationship. Never allow a relationship to subvert your preexisting social life. Do not think of relationships as a substitute for a social life.

 

3. After meeting a new dating prospect, maintain a low level of contact at first, and make as much of that contact in person as possible. Avoid frequent texting and phone calls until in person meetings have led to or near an exclusive dating relationship.

 

4. Meet several dating prospects at once, don't stop with one. Use every means at your disposal to always be meeting new dating prospects. Never put your eggs in one basket until that basket earns your eggs. Avoid those who want an instant relationship early in the process. Be open and honest with prospective dates, especially about the fact when you are seeing others, but not needlessly disclosing. Keep early conversations during dates and elsewhere light, flirty and fun, and avoid grilling early dates or heavy topics and heavy conversations generally. Learn to get to know people through experiencing them and their treatment of you rather than applying preconceived notions about them.

 

5. Do not confuse sex with relationships. Sex is a component of a relationship, and should not be the foundation of it. Outside relationships, conduct yourself sexually as you expect a prospective partner would, be consistent and show self-control in your sexual habits. Do not represent yourself as something you are not or rationalize the nature of your sex life to prospective partners. Own your actions.

 

6. Set the tone for how you want your relationship to be in early dating. Be proactive and expect some proactivity from prospective partners. Seek balance in effort, avoiding passivity and overassertiveness. Avoid those who are overly passive or too aggressive.

 

7. Treat mechanical relationship rules of thumb and advice as mere guidelines to be adopted to your personal style (the rules above are -not- mechanical rules but substantive rules, mechanical rules include "who pays" "who makes physical advances" etc.)

[Cobra_X]

I know there are a couple of users on LS for whom these rules have worked out spendidly. And these are some of my favorite users, but they're also women who are such great catches that they can afford to put in less effort. I don't think it's a one size fits all formula.

At least that's my take.

 

There are some posters who seem to think you have not used these rules. Would you provide personal examples or anecdotes for failures regarding these?

 

It's really hard to provide quality non-specific advice. General rules are more like guidelines... and should be applied differently as per the situation.

 

That said. I'm the type of guy that will quickly lose interest if things come to me too easily. I think many other men struggle with that issue as well. So if your too easy too quick... there is no emotional bond to cover for the sudden loss of interest. However, some guys don't have that issue.

[EasyHeart]

The "rules" in the OP are designed to help insecure, low self-esteem people pretend to be confident. Confident people don't need rules, because they instinctively know how to behave with other people. Put together a confident person and an insecure person and you'll have two very, very confused people, because each person sees the other as not behaving in the "right" way.

 

All of these rules (and the overwhelming majority of dating books out there) try to treat the symptoms, rather than the cause. Work on yourself, solve your self-esteem problems, and dating won't be so hard. Or so dramatic.

[flashy]

easy heart has a point.

[sumdude]

TBF,

 

I agree with you but assertive men like your H are in minority and usually don't stay single for long. If I waited for such a man to come along, I would probably wait forever.

 

Most men that are single and on the market (especially past 30 and ESPECIALLY on dating sites) are unfortunately passive to the varying degree. I can deal with some passivity as long as there are other traits that I like. With those men, light hearted aggressive pursuit is the best bet.

 

Heh, interesting. Seeing as that I'm 42 and on a dating site which I've barely used. Don't know if I'm passive or just jaded at this point. The pursuing should be 50/50. At this point in my life if I feel like I'm doing all the work for little return I next pretty quickly.

 

It's the 21st century people. We mostly all have jobs and manage our lives on our own now. Get with the program ladies.. equal rights should come with equal responsibilities.