AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) AJ, I'd thought better of you. I don't like the generalization made by Fourth Planet. Maybe sex is the driving dynamics behind dating, but what about the men who willingly settle down and start a family? How does that fit into the equation? And don't give me that excuse that they're forced into a marriage. Nobody pushes them down an aisle except themselves. Everything on this forum is a generalization. We are talking to people in general. His post will certainly rub some people wrong, I have done it as well. But when you boil it down, its on point. It drives females into a frenzy to hear we dont NEED a relationship or marriage. Many of the men who "settle down" are the men that have either been worn down to a nub from every day grinding from their women, or (mostly) they think the current person they are with is the best they can ever do. Or, it is to stop whoever they are with from having sex with someone else. Edited November 20, 2010 by AverageJoe
Author musemaj11 Posted November 20, 2010 Author Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) I don't like fourth planet. I find him msygonistic. However I have to say that the basic points of his posts in this thread r mostly correct. Edited November 20, 2010 by musemaj11
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Everything on this forum is a generalization. We are talking to people in general. His post will certainly rub some people wrong, I have done it as well. But when you boil it down, its on point. It drives females into a frenzy to hear we dont NEED a relationship or marriage. Many of the men who "settle down" are the men that have either been worn down to a nub from every day grinding from their women, or (mostly) they think the current person they are with is the best they can ever do. Or, it is to stop whoever they are with from having sex with someone else. So, you are of the opinion that most people are unable to form real bonds with others of the opposite sex then or is it just something you yourself have never experienced? I'm not asking to be rude it's just that I think your assessment about why people want relationships seems to be coming from a pretty bleak perspective.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I don't like fourth planet. I find him msygonistic. However I have to say that the basic points of his posts in this thread r mostly correct. Well, if you consider his assumptions to be correct then you already knew all the answers to your questions and had no need for this thread because you'd already have accepted the premises that love doesn't exist, marriage is bogus and you should steer clear of it and women have nothing of value to men but a hole. (and if you buy that then I have a pretty sweet bridge I'd like to sell ya )
Author musemaj11 Posted November 20, 2010 Author Posted November 20, 2010 I have to disagree with the notion that men only want sex. For biological reason, all healthy normal men are driven by sexual pressure to find a mate. However, the fact is deep down many if not most men also believe in love and seek love especially when they get older and their sexual hormones have decreased which enable them to think more clearly without biological pressure. Well, if you consider his assumptions to be correct then you already knew all the answers to your questions and had no need for this thread because you'd already have accepted the premises that love doesn't exist, marriage is bogus and you should steer clear of it and women have nothing of value to men but a hole. (and if you buy that then I have a pretty sweet bridge I'd like to sell ya ) I already came into realization earlier in my post that I guess I am just naive.
jimbo Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Well, if you consider his assumptions to be correct then you already knew all the answers to your questions and had no need for this thread because you'd already have accepted the premises that love doesn't exist, marriage is bogus and you should steer clear of it and women have nothing of value to men but a hole. (and if you buy that then I have a pretty sweet bridge I'd like to sell ya ) Well, to be honest, they have 3 holes of interest, not just one. Just pointing out a fact, not agreeing or disagreeing, just stating a fact in regard to 3 holes instead of just 1. They all deserve equal attention. That is only fair.
AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 So, you are of the opinion that most people are unable to form real bonds with others of the opposite sex That would be your opinion, I never said those words. or is it just something you yourself have never experienced? I'm not asking to be rude it's just that I think your assessment about why people want relationships seems to be coming from a pretty bleak perspective. Yes, I have expereinced relationships in the past, many of them very loving and intimate. Until I woke up and realized it wasnt necessary. This will probably be taken he wrong way, but the only reason you see it as bleak is because you are female. We are two different species and I will not be ashamed of being a man. There is no gain for me to be in a relationship, or even marriage.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I have to disagree with the notion that men only want sex. But that was the basis of the argument that you were agreeing with or am I losing my mind?
Author musemaj11 Posted November 20, 2010 Author Posted November 20, 2010 But that was the basis of the argument that you were agreeing with or am I losing my mind? You are taking his sexism-coated rant at face value. At the base of his rambling, he merely pointed out that basically there is a list of attributes that a woman expects in a man in determining his value to her while a man only expects mainly one attribute.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Yes, I have expereinced relationships in the past, many of them very loving and intimate. Until I woke up and realized it wasnt necessary. What do you mean, woke up? Did you just get up one morning with a revelation that intimacy wasn't important to you or did this occur after a break up or was there some other trigger? Emotional intimacy and bonds with other people outside ourselves are important to many people of both sexes. I don't think it's strictly a guy thing. I've seen women who have the same attitude as well and (I am not saying this to take a swing at you at all just making an observation) they seemed to have a lot of NPD traits.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 You are taking his sexism-coated rant at face value. At the base of his rambling, he merely pointed out that basically there is a list of attributes that a woman expects in a man in determining his value to her while a man only expects mainly one attribute. No way. No. Men want more than just a vagina when you are with them for the long haul, trust me on that one. Women have expectations and so do guys. I think some guys tend to not always think about all that stuff until after the relationship is going full steam whereas many girls have their lists made out wayyyyyyyyyyyyy in advance. Personally, I always thought that was silly as many women chuck that list out the window whenever they find a guy they feel chemistry with.
AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) What do you mean, woke up? Did you just get up one morning with a revelation that intimacy wasn't important to you or did this occur after a break up or was there some other trigger? Yes, I literally, physically, woke up one morning and said to myself, SELF! What could you possibly benefit from a relationship or marriage, that you could not benefit from being single. My answer, nothing. I can do anything I want without the toll of asking what I am doing. In fact my wallet is fatter for it, and women can smell that a mile away. I really never believed that, but it is true. Emotional intimacy and bonds with other people outside ourselves are important to many people of both sexes. I don't think it's strictly a guy thing. I've seen women who have the same attitude as well and (I am not saying this to take a swing at you at all just making an observation) they seemed to have a lot of NPD traits. If it makes you comfortable to put a label or title on things you may not completely understand, its ok. I wont hold that against you. Edited November 20, 2010 by AverageJoe
ColdFox Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 You are taking his sexism-coated rant at face value. At the base of his rambling, he merely pointed out that basically there is a list of attributes that a woman expects in a man in determining his value to her while a man only expects mainly one attribute. I can tell you all that my husband was looking for more than a hole, or even a hole surrounded by a hot woman's body. He was looking for a friend, someone who would be a good mother to his children, someone who made him laugh and kept him entertained. I was a better cook than him, but so what? He was a grown man who knew how to get takeout. He was better at home repairs, but so what? I am a grown woman who knows how to call the landlord/landlady/plumber/whatever. He wanted a responsible partner who worked and would help him make decisions about jobs and finances. He wanted someone who would have his back when the world was cold. Basically he wanted the same list of personality attributes that I wanted. If you believe that men seek only one attribute for a relationship, then yes you are naive. You are also listening to damaged men.
AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 If you believe that men seek only one attribute for a relationship, then yes you are naive. You are also listening to damaged men. I can promise you, if you didnt have a vagina. He would have married his best friend instead if he wanted those other things.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 Yes, I literally, physically, woke up one morning and said to myself, SELF! What could you possibly benefit from a relationship or marriage, that you could not benefit from being married. My answer, nothing. I can do anything I want without the toll of asking what I am doing. In fact my wallet is fatter for it, and women can smell that a mile away. I really never believed that, but it is true. But, that's not what I was referring to. I mean, everyone knows that you have more personal freedom (not necessarily more bank but that can be a given as well) but I was talking about in terms of what one would emotionally get out of forming close personal relationships with others. I know that some people have very low emotional needs but I am just a little confused as to why you see to consider that the norm for the entire male gender. If it makes you comfortable to put a label or title on things you may not completely understand, its ok. I wont hold that against you. I already explained that I was speaking of the couple women I do know who have always avoided close relationships (not you) and how they had abnormal mannerisms so maybe it is not a 'normal' female thing since these women are clearly not typical but IMO I just don't think what you speak of is a 'guy' thing. It's probably more of a personality thing.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I can promise you, if you didnt have a vagina. He would have married his best friend instead if he wanted those other things. Ever watch someone slowly die over five years' time? Even his good friends stopped coming around after awhile, especially after the brain damage from an infection he caught in his brain made him unpredictable and mean. It was my mom that took care of him even as he lost his sight, his ability to walk, a third of his lung capacity. When he got sick he begged her not to let him rot in the VA like he had known other people he had served with do, so she didn't. He didn't go to the hospice ether until his very last days. Friendship only goes so far and the level of emotional intimacy is entirely different with a close friend than with a good partner that you have a strong connection with. That's why people can dump friends a lot easier than cut ties with lovers, even when there is no marriage or children involved.
AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 But, that's not what I was referring to. I mean, everyone knows that you have more personal freedom (not necessarily more bank but that can be a given as well) but I was talking about in terms of what one would emotionally get out of forming close personal relationships with others. I know that some people have very low emotional needs Why would anyone be willing to give up personal freedom to begin with? But people do and it makes absolutely no sense to me. I dont know if there was a question in there, but let me ask you a question. You as a female, what can you offer me I dont already have? I am just a little confused as to why you see to consider that the norm for the entire male gender. You are confused, because I never said those words.
Author musemaj11 Posted November 20, 2010 Author Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) No way. No. Men want more than just a vagina when you are with them for the long haul, trust me on that one. Women have expectations and so do guys. I think some guys tend to not always think about all that stuff until after the relationship is going full steam whereas many girls have their lists made out wayyyyyyyyyyyyy in advance. Personally, I always thought that was silly as many women chuck that list out the window whenever they find a guy they feel chemistry with. Both men and women of course want a human being with a personality as a partner. Otherwise they can just pay escorts. But personality aside, its a fact that women have a long list in determining the value of a man while a man mainly only have one bullet on the list. Before someone brings up the 'women has kids factor', come on, thats just an excuse. We are living in USA, not in the jungle or countries like Afghanistan. Even single moms can raise her kids alone here even if barely. A guy with an average job is enough to provide your kids with basic necessities to survive in this country. Women who want men with money just want a shortcut to a comfortable life. It has nothing to do with children. Money can be made and two people who love each other but have little can improve financially if they work together as a team. Im hoping in the future that I will find that woman who will accept me not only after I have become a made man, but who will accept me even before I have become successful and will help and support me to achieve that goal. Edited November 20, 2010 by musemaj11
ColdFox Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I can promise you, if you didnt have a vagina. He would have married his best friend instead if he wanted those other things. First, please make no statements about my husband. You never met him, and he was obviously a better person than you can imagine. And you haven't even made any kind of reasonable point, of course my husband as a heterosexual wanted to marry a woman. That does NOT equal him seeing my vagina as the only thing of value about me. I was his best friend, and he mine. And before he met me, his best friend then, well, I'm pretty sure he would not have made a very good mother. Plus my husband was not in love with him. All this thread is doing is showcasing the posters who have never known love.
AverageJoe Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I dont know if there was a question in there, but let me ask you a question. You as a female, what can you offer me I dont already have? *crickets*
TrentW Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I think the world will be a better place when people stop worrying, and finally realize that they can have the whole package. You just need to stop thinking on such broad terms. If you want a hot wife that loves you for you, you can have it. If a woman wants to marry a millionaire that doesn't care if she doesn't look like an anorexic supermodel, she can have that as well. Is there a rational question here, or are you looking for sympathy?
Smoky Day Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 And you haven't even made any kind of reasonable point, of course my husband as a heterosexual wanted to marry a woman. That does NOT equal him seeing my vagina as the only thing of value about me. I was his best friend, and he mine. And before he met me, his best friend then, well, I'm pretty sure he would not have made a very good mother. Plus my husband was not in love with him. All this thread is doing is showcasing the posters who have never known love. If you were not female he would not have had sex with you. Is that about right? Since you apparently enjoy baiting widows so much, Joe, you seem to have missed the part where she A) already answered your question and B) showed you that it was pointless. It's relatively safe to stipulate that heterosexuals pursue sex and relationships with people of the opposite sex, yes. Congratulations to you for clearing that up. However, as stated, that has nothing to do with the assertion that the only thing all men want out of relationships with women is a vagina. The two statements do not equate. As for what women can offer you specifically, my guess is not much, if all you see them as is walking vaginas with appendages for cooking and sweeping. If you can't recognize and value intimacy, love, emotional support, companionship, a woman's point of view, and procreation, then it's totally understandable that you can't recognize value in women. After all, you can jerk off, drink beers with your buddy and use a microwave all by yourself... and perhaps it is best that you continue to do so, in perpetuity.
standingtall Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 You guys are ****ed. If you just want a woman for sex, why not just go get a whore? In/out - gone. A good woman makes your life better everyday. sure you can pick up randoms and all that stuff but why? just for 30 mins of fun and then 3 hours or so of trying to get her out of your place? why not find someone that you like and can go places with ever go to a nice place by yourself, crappy.
Ruby Slippers Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 My dad is in his 70s and quite disabled by now. My mom is in her 60s and works full time and also takes care of him -- that means dressing his wounds when he has surgeries, handling his hygiene and personal care routine, cooking for and feeding him, and everything else. They've been together almost 40 years. Without her (or another good woman), he probably would have been dead a long time ago. You might think a man in such a state would be better off dead. But he's using his last years to heal the damaged relationships he's built with his kids, including me. I feel thankful that my mom is helping make this happen. It's changing my life, and though his might not last much longer, it's changing his, too.
threebyfate Posted November 20, 2010 Posted November 20, 2010 I fell in love with and married a man who's in a similar financial situation, who I found to be beautiful both inside and out. He also felt the same way. And now we have a little boy who's beautiful both inside and out. Noisy too. More like his Daddy. Maybe there's something to marrying someone you love, who loves you right back.
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