Mad Max Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 IME most women still want relationships. The problem is is that many expect to have FWBs and F-buddies right up to the moment they commit to the "relationship man," whom they still expect to court her, be assertive, pay for dates and give her special treatment... while they are sleeping with men who do none of those things. Men wake up to this eventually, and become cynical about courtship and relationships generally, as OP seems to be experiencing. The special treatment of women in dating in the past stems from several cultural factors that do not exist any more. This has made traditional dating DOA for the most part other than internet dating, where if a man does not shell out money, the woman is likely to come here and make a thread about "cheap" men. Another problem many men face is that so many women have a very warped sense of propriety and reasonableness. If he doesn't call by the specified time, annoys her in any way, rational or otherwise, sometimes the slightest faults, it's off to the FWB or F-buddy or to have a ONS. It doesn't take a man being on either side of this scenario too many times to build a sense of wariness, of being suspicious of being used one way or the other. Many women brush this off as being "bitter" when in actuality it's just common sense often gained from much experience. Many women resent men who do the traditional relationship pursuit today, though few will admit it, and have more respect for the men whom they perceive don't "have to" put anything into dating and can get NSA sex from women. Have seen this so many times in my own experience and especially my best friends', as a woman comes over to give NSA sex and then makes fun of the men who are trying to "date" her. My friends have told me for years, "don't be the chump, don't date women, they don't respect you for it and are all sleeping with some guy like me anyway." Never got quite that cynical, but there is some truth in it. Many women IME will withhold sex from the "relationship man" whom she sees as a good prospect, while being sexually impulsive and "easy" with other men whom she does not perceive as relationship potential. Have been a party to this on both sides as have all of my single male friends many times. Finally, because people and relationships today are viewed by many of both genders as "video games" or "movies on demand," disposable and not worthy of any effort or emotional involvement lest one take the risk of getting hurt, the problem of relationships is exacerbated. People are treated as means rather than ends, and completely disposable and fungible more often than not today. Many men treat women as merely means for sex, and women treat men as means towards furthering an agenda or "life plan." It's nearly impossible to tell through all the rationalizing which women bring self-control and sexual discretion to the table. Why should men be expected to carry out traditional male dating and courtship behaviors when women are not in this type of environment? Just "be a gentleman" is no longer reason enough. Agreed. I learned my lesson and the girl had the nerve to give me a hard time. Shoud have seen how fast her ass got kicked to the curb. This is why I wait for women to ask me out. Therefore, they're obligated to pay on a date. I will no longer pay for dates to have the woman date or sleep with others.
xpaperxcutx Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Sometimes people base their relationship decisions on where they are in their own lives, if they are ready for the type of relationship the other person is asking for, as opposed to if the other person is good enough. Sometimes the other person is great, but there are compatibility issues or other logistic issues. So to extend your thoughts, anyone that don't want to get married but are okay with staying in a serious relationship don't deserve your respect either. Obviously you're not good enough for marriage, I'll just use you as a pillow at night. It's a big world. Different people want different things. Emphasis on the bolded
xpaperxcutx Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 (edited) [ QUOTE=Cobra_X;3104627]Men are inherently competitive. Fact is that if a woman has been with 100 other guys... it's going to be hard for me to feel like she is something special. I want to scale Mt. Everest... few people can do that. I'm not going to get a thrill from walking up the local hill. Everybody else has done it already... whoopty doo. FWB situations are no different. What are the chances a girl actually sleeps with 100 men? A majority probably won't sleep with more than 10 in their whole lives, some even less. Edited November 18, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Ruby Slippers Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I want a relationship. I've always wanted a relationship. And that's what I've had. I just haven't picked a guy who's a really good match for me yet.
Mad Max Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I want a relationship. I've always wanted a relationship. And that's what I've had. I just haven't picked a guy who's a really good match for me yet. That's fine. There's a difference between what you're going through and having FWBs and FBs.
sanskrit Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 (edited) What are the chances a girl actually sleeps with 100 men? A majority probably won't sleep with more than 10 in their whole lives, some even less. You'd be surprised how many women out there sleep with 10-20 guys a year or more while single. Ten in a lifetime is no longer the fat of the curve, but an outlier. The irony is that I guarantee you every single woman who complains about a "bitter" ungentlemanly attitude here knows several women who do this very thing, and she may do it herself and STILL express a privileged antiquated view of dating obligations of men. Ahh the bitterness... and contempt. You say bitterness and contempt, I say being socially aware, and despite the rolly eyes, once a man becomes socially aware, his sex and dating life improves immensely. I know, I know, women love living in a world filled with chumps to be used, and good news, there are still plenty of those around. They are the ones buying strange women drinks in bars, calling and texting constantly the minute they get her number, showing up for a first date with flowers or even a gift when she is likely to have had sex with some random dude in the last week who did none of those things, and may even use the buzz her date buys her to go have sex with him again that very night. There are still lots of chumpy guys around who persist in enacting bad advice they got young. But lots are wising up also. Edited November 18, 2010 by sanskrit
Ruby Slippers Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 That's fine. There's a difference between what you're going through and having FWBs and FBs. I have friends who do that, and they are pretty OK with it. They're very social, extroverted women who need more attention/affection than I do. Don't get me wrong. I would completely bliss out if I got some heartfelt attention and affection right about now! But I'm not going to snack on Cheetos while I'm waiting patiently to savor my gourmet, 7-course meal. It would kill my appetite.
Author hearttobreak Posted November 18, 2010 Author Posted November 18, 2010 I have friends who do that, and they are pretty OK with it. They're very social, extroverted women who need more attention/affection than I do. Don't get me wrong. I would completely bliss out if I got some heartfelt attention and affection right about now! But I'm not going to snack on Cheetos while I'm waiting patiently to savor my gourmet, 7-course meal. It would kill my appetite. You are, sadly, in the minority dear.
Ruby Slippers Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 You are, sadly, in the minority dear. I'm used to being outside the mainstream. I like it here.
xpaperxcutx Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 You'd be surprised how many women out there sleep with 10-20 guys a year or more while single. Ten in a lifetime is no longer the fat of the curve, but an outlier. The irony is that I guarantee you every single woman who complains about a "bitter" ungentlemanly attitude here knows several women who do this very thing, and she may do it herself and STILL express a privileged antiquated view of dating obligations of men. Yeah, and I'm also aware of how many men sleep with countless women. But do I come on here and complain that they should be in relationships and not be in FWB? That's their business, I can either choose to or not to get involved with them. If some women want to be FWBs who are you to tell them that they should be in a relationship? Your only obligations are to yourself. You say bitterness and contempt, I say being socially aware, and despite the rolly eyes, once a man becomes socially aware, his sex and dating life improves immensely. I know, I know, women love living in a world filled with chumps to be used, and good news, there are still plenty of those around. They are the ones buying strange women drinks in bars, calling and texting constantly the minute they get her number, showing up for a first date with flowers or even a gift when she is likely to have had sex with some random dude in the last week who did none of those things, and may even use the buzz her date buys her to go have sex with him again that very night. There are still lots of chumpy guys around who persist in enacting bad advice they got young. But lots are wising up also. And there's nothing wrong with being socially aware. I even posted on here that men should be selective with the women they date. It's the kind of contempt that when you've wronged by someone that you decide to take it out on an entire gender that I have a problem with.
sanskrit Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 If some women want to be FWBs who are you to tell them that they should be in a relationship? Your only obligations are to yourself. Nice straw man. What I am speaking against is men being subject to the same social expectations of the past in dating and relationships in a very, very different present world. It's the kind of contempt that when you've wronged by someone that you decide to take it out on an entire gender that I have a problem with. I don't understand your use of "taking it out on an entire gender" here. How is being self and socially aware, and conducting oneself as such "taking it out" on anyone? I'm not exactly punching women in the cooch here (as Dane Cook might say).
dispatch3d Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Yeah, and I'm also aware of how many men sleep with countless women. But do I come on here and complain that they should be in relationships and not be in FWB? That's their business, I can either choose to or not to get involved with them. If some women want to be FWBs who are you to tell them that they should be in a relationship? Your only obligations are to yourself. And there's nothing wrong with being socially aware. I even posted on here that men should be selective with the women they date. It's the kind of contempt that when you've wronged by someone that you decide to take it out on an entire gender that I have a problem with. That's kind of what we are getting at in this post. Dating ****ing sucks for men. Period. End of story. Example, you send 10 messages to girls on some dating site, assuming you are really good you get about 5 to message you back and maybe could possibly bed 2. You are still getting rejected 80% of the time. Not to mention, if you date, you will have to go on 5 dates where the probability of them not screening you out on arbitrary bull**** is not good (in this imaginary example which I assume 90% of guys would be happy with, is >50%). And you counter with... wellll alll guys just want sex! Why are you so focused on this! When really its easy to say that, then if 10 guys message you, you could sleep with 10 guys. Not good sex, mind you, but you could still do it. You would DEFINITELY get 10 dates at the minimum. I usually dislike female hate threads, but this one for some reason isn't about females. It's about a dating system that screws the guys who put in effort, and rewards guys who don't give a ****. Not that cool.
xpaperxcutx Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Nice straw man. What I am speaking against is men being subject to the same social expectations of the past in dating and relationships in a very, very different present world. I'm sorry, am I reading this wrong? What are you trying to say? I don't understand your use of "taking it out on an entire gender" here. How is being self and socially aware, and conducting oneself as such "taking it out" on anyone? I'm not exactly punching women in the cooch here (as Dane Cook might say) I'm taking into account various posters and threads. There have been quite a few posters on here whom because they'd either been rejected or have been wronged that they decided to start acting like d-cks towards women. There really is a difference between standing up for yourself and then being downright misogynist. And that's all I'm going to write about this before someone decides that I'm writing is " contempt" and decides to flag me.
dispatch3d Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 bitching about this really is a waste of emotional energy.
Mad Max Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 bitching about this really is a waste of emotional energy. Pretty much. Those with experience know how things work in reality. While some things seem good, those are simply ideals. We need to shift away from being idealists and start to become realists.
xpaperxcutx Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 That's kind of what we are getting at in this post. Dating ****ing sucks for men. Period. End of story. Example, you send 10 messages to girls on some dating site, assuming you are really good you get about 5 to message you back and maybe could possibly bed 2. You are still getting rejected 80% of the time. Not to mention, if you date, you will have to go on 5 dates where the probability of them not screening you out on arbitrary bull**** is not good (in this imaginary example which I assume 90% of guys would be happy with, is >50%). And you counter with... wellll alll guys just want sex! Why are you so focused on this! When really its easy to say that, then if 10 guys message you, you could sleep with 10 guys. Not good sex, mind you, but you could still do it. You would DEFINITELY get 10 dates at the minimum. I usually dislike female hate threads, but this one for some reason isn't about females. It's about a dating system that screws the guys who put in effort, and rewards guys who don't give a ****. Not that cool. Looking back to the original opening post, I noticed that this thread has derailed somewhat. Let me clarify I did not say that all females want FWBs, but those who do, who are we to fault them any? The really basic thing to do is to move on and find someone compatible. It's simple as that. I'm sorry that you have it hard, but you're jumping to conclusions if a girl would randomly sleep with any guy who decides to message them. And most guys do want sex, or at least the basis of sex is a reason for why they date.
sanskrit Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I never said women should be in relationships or that women should not have casual sex, but rather that in a world where women do have lots of casual sex, expecting men to observe gentlemanly dating obligations of the past are ridiculous when women are subject to none of their respective dating obligations of the past. As far as acting like dicks goes, SAYING one is going to be a dick and DOING it are two different things. Most men aren't going to be able to turn into a dick overnight, nor do they intend to, they are just venting. Men who -are- capable of becoming dicks are generally the types whom women freely have as FWBs and F-buddies, women take a number to be with them, and it breeds an attidude in the guy in question that is not unlike the attitude of the -average- woman, he flakes, he plays games, he exhibits a privileged attitude because he can, all the women are after him, and they don't mind sharing. Also, most importantly, for many women, "being a dick" translates directly to "He calls me on my BS and he won't do what I want him to do all the time." It's true.
welikeincrowds Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 but those who do, who are we to fault them any?Oh ****, I'm feeling the start of another "are they a low-grade chic" thread. I really hope that's avoided. However, this is a very interesting point that I'd like to address. I have trouble coming to terms with "casual dating." I've decided that I just have no idea what that means. I also have experienced intimidation (read: fear) in the sexual prowess of my partner. What is there to fear in a sexually active woman? What does it matter that a girl has had a lot of partners? In trying to answer that question, I am thinking back to examples of sexuality that scared me. One time, at a drunken party, I started hitting on a girl who was reasonably attractive, and apparently sexually promiscuous. We snuck into a staircase where things started getting sexual. Eventually she lied down on the floor and asked me if I had a condom. I said "no," which was true; but it was also a relief, as I wasn't exactly convinced that I was DTF. Then, still lying on the ground, she asked me "Can you hold it?" I told her she was smarter than that and we ended it there. Her indiscretion freaked me out, and I wouldn't have gone bareback anyway, but I wonder: our attraction was completely shallow, considering I had just met her -- so if she had been an absolute knockout beauty, would I have perceived her differently? Another thing to consider: in a recent "first time" with someone, I felt like I did a horrible job, probably because I was intimidated by what I perceived to be her high sexual standards. And then, feeling miserable, it was revealed that she had very recently had sex with another person. This made me feel a lot worse. I wonder how this relates? I wonder if these judgments of women are actually projections of personal insecurities, over past heartbreaks or mishandled relationships, or of one's own sexual value. I wonder if it has more to do with the viewer than the woman who has less rules in her sex life.
deebeechrisyo Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Man, this thread has caused me some kind of anxiety. Just thinking about going on a date with a woman who might have just finished banging a guy an hour earlier, or will bang a guy right after, is really depressing. I really don't think (hope?) that this is the norm of dating life in modern America. It's pretty disgusting and it's stereotyping at it's worst, i.e. "well this guy is an *******, I would never date him but I'll have sex with him until I date this gentleman enough to become exclusive.". It goes both ways too, it's not a gender-specific issue. Eventually people do wake-up and become socially aware, and think "why do I have to pay $100 a date to get in this girl's pants when another guy is getting it for free?" before changing their entire thought process on courting. Eventually, the "traditional" way of dating is going to be weeded out of the West entirely, and relationships will simply be selected, like selecting an entree from a restaurant menu. I still harbor some romantic inclinations towards going on a date with a girl, lighting up her mood, making her laugh, and ending the night with her thinking "wow, I can't believe I met someone so amazing!". Unfortunately, the reality is that I was on my third date with a different woman this week, and she was probably on her fifth. It's almost like the human element is eliminated entirely from the dating game.
sanskrit Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I still date, and still pay because it's something I want to do and have a woman along to do it. I do reserve the right to gripe about it here though. Didn't mean to give you the heebee jeebies, but it's very real that many, many women do have lots of casual sex on nights where the "date" dude got her horned up for the F-buddy. Have been in both roles many times. There are some funny Tucker Max stories where he goes by a girl's house for a quick BJ before her BF or date picks her up. It's not fiction, and it's not an exaggeration. It's fine, but in a world where women have no expectations on them whatsoever, why do the expectations remain for men? That's the annoying part for me.
Woggle Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 I still date, and still pay because it's something I want to do and have a woman along to do it. I do reserve the right to gripe about it here though. Didn't mean to give you the heebee jeebies, but it's very real that many, many women do have lots of casual sex on nights where the "date" dude got her horned up for the F-buddy. Have been in both roles many times. There are some funny Tucker Max stories where he goes by a girl's house for a quick BJ before her BF or date picks her up. It's not fiction, and it's not an exaggeration. It's fine, but in a world where women have no expectations on them whatsoever, why do the expectations remain for men? That's the annoying part for me. If you do not want to meet the expectations for you don't do them. If a woman does not want to act like a lady then she should not expect to get treated like one. A woman should have to earn chivarlous treatment and not get it simply because she is born female.
deebeechrisyo Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Oh yes, I've read the Tucker Max stories. I'm not worried about that, those girls are trash anyways. Most are random bar sluts who can't keep themselves away from the jerks and *******s.
TheBigQuestion Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 This thread makes me glad that I'm in a casual sex/FWB situation with a girl for which the only money spent is the gas money to get to her place. I'm not sure if she's going out on dates during the week or hanging out with other dudes, but I'd rather be in my position than the poor sap trying to romance her and spending money on her. In short, I approve of FWBs. More girls should be open to them, so long as I'm the one with whom they engage in such relations.
welikeincrowds Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 Man, this thread has caused me some kind of anxiety. Just thinking about going on a date with a woman who might have just finished banging a guy an hour earlier, or will bang a guy right after, is really depressing. Why? 10characters
Mad Max Posted November 18, 2010 Posted November 18, 2010 This thread makes me glad that I'm in a casual sex/FWB situation with a girl for which the only money spent is the gas money to get to her place. I'm not sure if she's going out on dates during the week or hanging out with other dudes, but I'd rather be in my position than the poor sap trying to romance her and spending money on her. In short, I approve of FWBs. More girls should be open to them, so long as I'm the one with whom they engage in such relations. As would many others. Going out on a date with someone and sleeping with someone else that same day is low class and trashy.
Recommended Posts