Forgiving = weakness ?

[Mimolicious]

Interesting, but in my case she had the ultimatum, "If you want to keep talking with me, get a D"

 

 

 

I have read your story (back to 2004) and I respect your choice.

 

I think (in general, not your W) that the WS in the first stages of reconciling are "lost" between grieving the fOM and trying to reconnect with the BS, in consequence they are not fully respecting and having conscience of the BS efforts. WS mind-reading :

"Wow he is forgiving me, such a lovely and strong man my H is...Do I love him? Maybe...but I miss so much OM...Do I want to divorce, no, I'm not ready, maybe later, eventually.."

 

 

 

Very interesting. Thank you.

 

The bolded- And did exactly what? You said something... went out the window. She still in contact with you, where's the D packet?

I can almost bet my brand new whip, she'll reel you in.

[East7]

The bolded- And did exactly what? You said something... went out the window. She still in contact with you, where's the D packet?

I can almost bet my brand new whip, she'll reel you in.

 

LOL I accept the whip, no shipping though, you'll have to meet me - PM me for terms and conditions

No seriously, don't worry for me, I talked once and it was enough, she is being quiet.

[Mimolicious]

LOL I accept the whip, no shipping though, you'll have to meet me - PM me for terms and conditions

No seriously, don't worry for me, I talked once and it was enough, she is being quiet.

 

 

That's going to be a little hard with no shipping if we are really across the pond from each other. LOL!

 

Don't fall for the shenanigans! At this point it sounds like a game to her. People are crazy.

[confusedinkansas]

Heard from a cuckolded H to his BW who is my friend, "Honey, I would forgive you if you ever had an affair with another man, take you back in a minute".

 

She takes his comment a a true sign weakness and then goes on to cheat to her heart's content KNOWING she holds the ultimate Get Out of Jail Free card whenever Dday arrives.

 

So being this person .... cuckold ..... only weak people can be this person? Only weak people can have this mentality or lifestyle? I'd disagree.

 

Why would she take this as a true sign of weakness? I'm assuming this is a fictitional "Overheard" story but, if it weren't, do you know what goes on behind the closed doors of their bedroom? Do you know anything else to warrant that she would think that this was TRUE WEAKNESS on his part?

[anne1707]

I think (in general, not your W) that the WS in the first stages of reconciling are "lost" between grieving the fOM and trying to reconnect with the BS, in consequence they are not fully respecting and having conscience of the BS efforts. WS mind-reading :

"Wow he is forgiving me, such a lovely and strong man my H is...Do I love him? Maybe...but I miss so much OM...Do I want to divorce, no, I'm not ready, maybe later, eventually.."

 

 

I think Owl (apologies if wrong) will admit that his wife did not 100% commit from day one - however there has to come a time when the WS needs to show whether they are in or out of the marriage. I know for myself that I was all over the place for the first few months. I cannot even begin to comprehend the pain my H must have gone through at this time yet he stuck by me. However he made it very clear that there was a limit to what he would tolerate and thankfully I worked through the fog and found my way back to him. The real work on reconciliation could not start until he saw that I was his and only his.

[Gfkr2]

So being this person .... cuckold ..... only weak people can be this person? Only weak people can have this mentality or lifestyle? I'd disagree.

 

Why would she take this as a true sign of weakness? I'm assuming this is a fictitional "Overheard" story but, if it weren't, do you know what goes on behind the closed doors of their bedroom? Do you know anything else to warrant that she would think that this was TRUE WEAKNESS on his part?

 

I think disclosing you are willing to forgive infidelity upfront without question is indeed a sign of weakness in a man. I had to chuckle a H is so insecure that he gives his W permission to do whatever she wants outside the M with the caviat he would forgive her for infidelity. Perhaps, AFTER when all of the facts of the A are known, only then, is forgiveness genuine.

[Owl]

I think Owl (apologies if wrong) will admit that his wife did not 100% commit from day one - however there has to come a time when the WS needs to show whether they are in or out of the marriage. I know for myself that I was all over the place for the first few months. I cannot even begin to comprehend the pain my H must have gone through at this time yet he stuck by me. However he made it very clear that there was a limit to what he would tolerate and thankfully I worked through the fog and found my way back to him. The real work on reconciliation could not start until he saw that I was his and only his.

 

This almost precisely indicates what happened in my situation as well.

 

I will admit to weakness...pleading, begging, etc...for about 4 days.

 

After that, I made it clear to her what the outcome of her choice to be with OM would be if she continued on her path.

 

It took about a month before she truly made her decision to reconcile. Up to that point, she was walking the line, trying to keep both and/or not make a choice. Even that happened when I made it clear to her that not making a choice was going to result in losing me.

 

Once she made her choice...that was when were really able to start reconciling and rebuilding the marriage.

 

During that month...I didn't tolerate contact between her and OM. Everytime, she was called out on it. I did accept that she had to grieve for the end of that 'relationship'...which was part of what was going on even during that time (in retrospect, I think she realized even then what her choice was going to be, but was struggling with the idea of the end of their communication).

 

I was weak in the very beginning. After that, every choice I made, every action I've taken, has been from a position of strength. And like I've said...no regrets on my part.

[BB07]

If forgiveness and reconciling a marriage with 16 years of wonderful foundation prior to a 2-3 month EA brought on by untreated depression and a poor understanding of relationship dynamics on her part = weak...ok...call me weak.

 

Trust me...I'm quite happy with my choices and what I've done...I won't lose sleep over being considered weak by some group of posters here.

 

I would never think you are weak, nor the other bs's who have successfully reconciled. :)

If faced with similar circumstances I don't think I could do it and my hat is off to all of you.

[confusedinkansas]

I think disclosing you are willing to forgive infidelity upfront without question is indeed a sign of weakness in a man. I had to chuckle a H is so insecure that he gives his W permission to do whatever she wants outside the M with the caviat he would forgive her for infidelity. Perhaps, AFTER when all of the facts of the A are known, only then, is forgiveness genuine.

 

Still, why is giving your wife (or husband) permission to be with others considered a weakness?

There are many cuckolds & open marriages in this county. I highly doubt that someone that has this lifestyle is weak.

For someone to be this person - the cuckold - (I really dislike the word :confused:itsself but I'm trying to make a point) Don't these folks enjoy knowing that their spouse is with someone else? Same with an open marriage? Isn't it just about being happy?

 

Not everyone's marriage is conventional, prudish or conforming to what many believe to be the RIGHT & TRUE way to be married.

 

In my life personally - the last few years I've learned a great deal about CONVENTIONAL.......There is no such thing anymore.

[Owl]

I don't think that GFKR's post actually had anything to do with an "open marriage".

 

He commented about a guy who told his wife that he would forgive her if she cheated...so she used that as carte blanch to cheat.

 

That's not an open marriage. That's one person taking advantage of another's potential forgiveness.

 

She doesn't actually HAVE permission. She took his potential forgiveness and USED IT as a substitute for permission.

 

I wouldn't say that people engaged in open marriages are weak. If it truly works out for them...they're probably the opposite. It's darned, darned difficult to actually pull "the lifestyle" off without destroying the marriage. It takes work and communication...so if they manage it, they're probably not all that weak. (Now...I also want to point out that the vast majority of couples I've known or heard about that tried it ended up failing at it miserably. IMHO only, its foolish to take this risk with your marriage. But again, that's just my opinion).

 

In GFKR's 'example'...the wife used her husband's "perceived" weakness to her advantage.

 

Now...what REALLY happens when he finds out remains to be seen.

[Gfkr2]

I don't think that GFKR's post actually had anything to do with an "open marriage".

 

He commented about a guy who told his wife that he would forgive her if she cheated...so she used that as carte blanch to cheat.

 

That's not an open marriage. That's one person taking advantage of another's potential forgiveness.

 

She doesn't actually HAVE permission. She took his potential forgiveness and USED IT as a substitute for permission.

 

I wouldn't say that people engaged in open marriages are weak. If it truly works out for them...they're probably the opposite. It's darned, darned difficult to actually pull "the lifestyle" off without destroying the marriage. It takes work and communication...so if they manage it, they're probably not all that weak. (Now...I also want to point out that the vast majority of couples I've known or heard about that tried it ended up failing at it miserably. IMHO only, its foolish to take this risk with your marriage. But again, that's just my opinion).

 

In GFKR's 'example'...the wife used her husband's "perceived" weakness to her advantage.

 

Now...what REALLY happens when he finds out remains to be seen.

 

 

Thank you, Owl, for saying it what I was trying to convey.

 

Confused, I did not intend to apply my comments to an open marriage. Sorry for not being clear.

[confusedinkansas]

Thank you, Owl, for saying it what I was trying to convey.

 

Confused, I did not intend to apply my comments to an open marriage. Sorry for not being clear.

 

Ok - I understand.

 

Those in the affair - or past it in my case - did you REALLY know all the things that the married couple discussed? - That's kind of the point I was trying to make. (in a round about way)

[seren]

Seren... may I ask you a question? It has been 9 months since the discovery of my significant other's emotional and physical affair. I find myself struggling at times with the deception and betrayal. In addition, she reached out to a very close friend of mine to share intimate details of her affair and seek advice because she believed he could offer her a path to reconciliation.

 

I believe she was looking for validation and acceptance of her affair but also believe my forgiveness was a sign of weakness to her... and helped her believe she did not have to deal with the consequences of her poor decisions or actions.

 

As a woman who has received forgiveness... do you have any insight on how to take positive steps and continue on a positive path to reconciliation? What do you do to reassure you husband of your love for him or comfort him when you sense doubt, sadness, etc? Thank you in advance for all of your support.

 

Hi, first off I should point out that I am an XBS, however for me and my H (who had an 8 month A) the first step was being clear about what we both wanted, did he want the OW? did I want H, did we both want our marriage and relationship to work? We also made sure we both understood boundaries - mine were NC, truth, more truth and yet more truth, no matter how bad, how painful or how much it would hurt. I needed to understand the why's, what's how's, I needed to understand what it was that H was looking for outside our marriage, what made him think he had the right to lie and decieve me and the big kicker - could I forgive, could I trust and did I still love him

For H, it was whether he could forgive himself, for him to look into himself honestly and face up to what he had done to us. For us both, to accept that we both had a hand in our marriage being a rocky place before the A, BUT, not for that to be the reason or excuse for an A.

 

To be honest, I, Spark, and many other reconciled XBS said, if you want the OP, then go get them. The hard work after D Day is exhausting, tiring and mentally draining. BUT, for me, I believed that our 20 odd years of a dammed good marriage was worth more than walking away for 8 months of what it was. I felt at times that I supported H far more than he me, this because he was dealing with his feelings of self loathing and many, many WTF was I thinking moments. Frankly, for me, I just felt bamboozled that H had managed to pull it off for so long as he did a dammed good job of hiding it.

We agreed that questions could be asked whenever or whatever was needed, but that these would not go on forever, I had to have the time to talk about my feelings, the triggers were dammed awful -for a time. The physical side wasn't a problem, the OW had shared details with me (graciously) and I understood what it was all about -so that helped, sort of. I knew we had crossed a line when I just couldn't be bothered talking about it anymore, when it wasn't forgotten, but it was forgiven and I could look at it and just think what a dammed waste of our time.

 

I talked to anyone and everyone about it, not my usual thing, but I seemed to have motormouth and wanted to understand it.

I show my H each and every day that I love him, always have, always will, despite the A. He, is just my man, the person I just want to make old bones with, he shows me he cares by the little things. It is hard to say just what makes us special, but we just are, to us anyways. I feel incredibly lucky that we have got through this, so does he. I just hug him when I see him trying to make sense of what he calls his head up his a*** time. He asked, a few months ago if I had really forgiven him, I was suprised as I thought he knew, he did, just needed reminding. he still has trouble forgiving himself, but it gets easier.

He is in Afghan at the moment, I found a kitbag in his wardrobe the other day full of every letter, card, ticket etc of our relationship and I just wished he was home so I could tell him how much that meant to me.

 

You are early days from D Day, it takes time and there is not time limit or a moment when you think well that was that - BUT it gets easier, it just takes the both of you to work at it.

Sorry, I may not have answered your question and veered way from the OP, but there you go.

[Fight4Me]

Seren... may I ask you a question? It has been 9 months since the discovery of my significant other's emotional and physical affair. I find myself struggling at times with the deception and betrayal. In addition, she reached out to a very close friend of mine to share intimate details of her affair and seek advice because she believed he could offer her a path to reconciliation.

 

Sounds like she has a real problem with boundaries. A WW who reaches out to another man, while supposedly trying to reconcile with her BH, shows a serious lack of judgment and respect for her H in general.

 

I believe she was looking for validation and acceptance of her affair but also believe my forgiveness was a sign of weakness to her... and helped her believe she did not have to deal with the consequences of her poor decisions or actions.

She was looking for some validation, I'm sure. She's the weak one, though, as exhibited by her own actions and lack of appreciation for you. Your forgiveness was a gift, not a weakness, however, if she was never remorseful to begin with (and that seems apparent), then it is a wasted gift.

 

You're not that far out from DDay. Since there is a lack of remorse, I'm afraid you've never been able to begin the process of reconciliation. You need to lay down some clear boundaries and start employing consequences. For instance, she may want to find somewhere else to live as long as she continues to saddle up to other men to garner their sympathies. In fact, have the legal papers drawn up so she knows you're as serious as a heart attack this time.

[wheelwright]

well he/she could have said that even before she/he become a WS.....cheating adds whole spectrum of emotions....when you open a Pandora box take what you get

 

I agree with this. Have lived it.

 

 

forgiveness=== weakness cuz no sane person would knowingly believe a cheater/lier...it's form of desperation

 

If you know that cheater as a generally honest person (in all the forms honesty may take) then believing a cheater goes with the guidance that we may trust people according to past behaviour. WS did more than just cheat in the 5, 10, or 15 years that you have known them.

 

"not feel too bitter about the OP"

 

probably a monk could do that

 

But a monk wouldn't have the opportunity. I believe there are some who do not feel this kind of bitterness - myself included.

[kevinm1019]

Hi, first off I should point out that I am an XBS, however for me and my H (who had an 8 month A) the first step was being clear about what we both wanted, did he want the OW? did I want H, did we both want our marriage and relationship to work? We also made sure we both understood boundaries - mine were NC, truth, more truth and yet more truth, no matter how bad, how painful or how much it would hurt. I needed to understand the why's, what's how's, I needed to understand what it was that H was looking for outside our marriage, what made him think he had the right to lie and decieve me and the big kicker - could I forgive, could I trust and did I still love him

For H, it was whether he could forgive himself, for him to look into himself honestly and face up to what he had done to us. For us both, to accept that we both had a hand in our marriage being a rocky place before the A, BUT, not for that to be the reason or excuse for an A.

 

To be honest, I, Spark, and many other reconciled XBS said, if you want the OP, then go get them. The hard work after D Day is exhausting, tiring and mentally draining. BUT, for me, I believed that our 20 odd years of a dammed good marriage was worth more than walking away for 8 months of what it was. I felt at times that I supported H far more than he me, this because he was dealing with his feelings of self loathing and many, many WTF was I thinking moments. Frankly, for me, I just felt bamboozled that H had managed to pull it off for so long as he did a dammed good job of hiding it.

We agreed that questions could be asked whenever or whatever was needed, but that these would not go on forever, I had to have the time to talk about my feelings, the triggers were dammed awful -for a time. The physical side wasn't a problem, the OW had shared details with me (graciously) and I understood what it was all about -so that helped, sort of. I knew we had crossed a line when I just couldn't be bothered talking about it anymore, when it wasn't forgotten, but it was forgiven and I could look at it and just think what a dammed waste of our time.

 

I talked to anyone and everyone about it, not my usual thing, but I seemed to have motormouth and wanted to understand it.

I show my H each and every day that I love him, always have, always will, despite the A. He, is just my man, the person I just want to make old bones with, he shows me he cares by the little things. It is hard to say just what makes us special, but we just are, to us anyways. I feel incredibly lucky that we have got through this, so does he. I just hug him when I see him trying to make sense of what he calls his head up his a*** time. He asked, a few months ago if I had really forgiven him, I was suprised as I thought he knew, he did, just needed reminding. he still has trouble forgiving himself, but it gets easier.

He is in Afghan at the moment, I found a kitbag in his wardrobe the other day full of every letter, card, ticket etc of our relationship and I just wished he was home so I could tell him how much that meant to me.

 

You are early days from D Day, it takes time and there is not time limit or a moment when you think well that was that - BUT it gets easier, it just takes the both of you to work at it.

Sorry, I may not have answered your question and veered way from the OP, but there you go.

Thank you very much for the encouragement and the support.

[Owl]

But a monk wouldn't have the opportunity. I believe there are some who do not feel this kind of bitterness - myself included.

 

Where does your husband stand on this subject?

[wheelwright]

Where does your husband stand on this subject?

 

He's halfway between me and Dexter. Well, he swings. No disrespect!

 

He's also value compatible with me on that front.

 

He doesn't like the betrayal AT ALL.

 

He understands it can happen and the person betraying is still a good person.

 

Hell, he's been no saint.

 

I betrayed him badly. He still has not recovered. Of course I feel bad.

 

If I had reconciled fully and lovingly, he would have been OK. Truth is, the M was already dead for me and the AP some kind of soulmate. That's an understatement.

 

I told H how I felt, but he insists that my feelings for xMOM are madness - that xMOM is an evil f*** who if I loved, then I am insane.

 

I have to say, if I think with my mind and not my soul, I find my H's viewpoint persuasive.

[U2RockZz]

But a monk wouldn't have the opportunity. I believe there are some who do not feel this kind of bitterness - myself included.

 

 

why do you think you need to feel bitter when you are the one that cheated.....so feeling bitter... i don't understand........

 

 

"If you know that cheater as a generally honest person (in all the forms honesty may take) then believing a cheater goes with the guidance that we may trust people according to past behaviour. WS did more than just cheat in the 5, 10, or 15 years that you have known them."

 

 

first i don't believe a thing that cheater did in the past .....possibly it could be cuz of either lack of opportunity to cheat or of newness in the existing relationship itself......

 

 

as i said before...give your H enough money....no alimony....then see where he will be.....your H is there cuz lack of choice nothing more....and never think he is there cuz of your personality traits other than cheating..

[JAGeezer]

I was just wondering if some of WS loose respect for BS after being forgiven...Especially women WS. Actually, I think it is particular to women, they - deep down-, think that the BS who is forgiving is week and has no backbone.

I don't say ALL women and always, but I think it's something very likely to happen. I see from miles away BS telling me how wrong I am but I think it is an interesting question. I respect all POVs.

 

This question is raised because MW claimed she wanted to fix her M and I said ok, Goodbye...No D-day and we went NC. She is constantly breaking NC and telling me that now her H knows about EA (actually it was full PA as well), he forgave her and tries hard to please her and cover her with attentions, but that she is kind of muffled and doesn't like that and she misses me and wants to keep talking with me.

Again typical cake-eater

I was like "wow, you want everything hun, and why should I be talking with you?"

I think she has zero respect for her H to start with the A and now she has no gratitude to his efforts.

Forgiving a cake-eater = weakness ?

What do you think?

 

It depends on the WS. Some (a very few) manage to relearn the difference between right and wrong, and accept fully that what they did was wrong. I suppose those would be the success stories in the M recovery wars. They're around, some on this very forum.

 

However I think that those represent a tiny minority of WS's. Most of the rest are simply opportunistic sociopaths who know how to talk the talk, but who couldn't walk the walk if their lives (and apparently their M) depended on it. They see forgiveness a weakness to be exploited until such time as they can cheat again...or, at best, as a means to hang on to an M and a BS that they no longer respect, but whom they need as a beard and a meal ticket. Hyenas, the lot of them. If we could read their minds after their BS has forgiven them I think that, instead of gratitude, the best they could summon up would be "Whew! Dodged that bullet".

 

JAG

[East7]

However I think that those represent a tiny minority of WS's. Most of the rest are simply opportunistic sociopaths who know how to talk the talk, but who couldn't walk the walk if their lives (and apparently their M) depended on it. They see forgiveness a weakness to be exploited until such time as they can cheat again...or, at best, as a means to hang on to an M and a BS that they no longer respect, but whom they need as a beard and a meal ticket. Hyenas, the lot of them. If we could read their minds after their BS has forgiven them I think that, instead of gratitude, the best they could summon up would be "Whew! Dodged that bullet".

JAG

 

Couldn't agree more !

[hoping2heal]

I was just wondering if some of WS loose respect for BS after being forgiven...Especially women WS. Actually, I think it is particular to women, they - deep down-, think that the BS who is forgiving is week and has no backbone.

I don't say ALL women and always, but I think it's something very likely to happen. I see from miles away BS telling me how wrong I am but I think it is an interesting question. I respect all POVs.

 

This question is raised because MW claimed she wanted to fix her M and I said ok, Goodbye...No D-day and we went NC. She is constantly breaking NC and telling me that now her H knows about EA (actually it was full PA as well), he forgave her and tries hard to please her and cover her with attentions, but that she is kind of muffled and doesn't like that and she misses me and wants to keep talking with me.

Again typical cake-eater

I was like "wow, you want everything hun, and why should I be talking with you?"

I think she has zero respect for her H to start with the A and now she has no gratitude to his efforts.

Forgiving a cake-eater = weakness ?

What do you think?

 

East, the WS should be kissing the BS' ass, not the other way around. Well, not so much kissing ass but you know what I mean? If a BS makes the decision to give his/her WS another chance, the BS should be working hard to prove themselves trustworthy, honest, and deserving of that second chance. If you fool around on someone, go back to them, and they run around trying to cater to YOUR every whim..who would respect that? I mean, what is there to respect?? If that woman had to work for her relationship, as opposed to being showered with rewards she doesn't deserve, ..aka if she wasn't being treated like an over indulged five year old brat, she would likely not be behaving like one.

[pureinheart]

well he/she could have said that even before she/he become a WS.....cheating adds whole spectrum of emotions....when you open a Pandora box take what you get

 

 

forgiveness=== weakness cuz no sane person would knowingly believe a cheater/lier...it's form of desperation

 

 

"not feel too bitter about the OP"

 

probably a monk could do that

 

Well, being that we have all lied or cheated to/with something at some point in our lives IMO if the M can work this rule of thumb would apply...none of us are perfect...this is not an excuse, it is the truth:)

[bentnotbroken]

Well, being that we have all lied or cheated to/with something at some point in our lives IMO if the M can work this rule of thumb would apply...none of us are perfect...this is not an excuse, it is the truth:)

 

 

Most of us outgrew it when we left high school though, even in our imperfection.

[pureinheart]

Forgiving or not forgiving is not weak. What is weak, is not following your heart, and rather taking the easy route.

 

If you forgive out of fear of being alone, then you're being weak. If you don't forgive because it is what is expected from your peers, then you re being weak.

 

If you do what you feel is right, no matter how hard it is or what anyone else thinks, then you are being strong.

 

I was just reading about this last night and I believe that is why many M stay together that shouldn't have.