Self-Respect of OW and BW

[maravilla]

I have a feeling I'm going to come off as callous with this question, and I don't mean to, I am just genuinely wondering, and it's probably nothing I should even be concerning myself about, but, I'm like that.

 

Lately I've been feeling like I had little self-respect to stay with MM when I was unhappy with how he was treating me and how he was lying to me and stringing me along. I've dealt with the feeling by telling myself that at first I loved and trusted him (undeservedly so, but that is with hindsight and in the beginning it didn't feel that way) and that when I realized his pattern was not going to change, and I could not get over the past hurts he'd caused me, I walked away.

 

So then I think, does the wife who stays with a known continued cheater have self-respect? If I'm going to feel like I had little to none, then maybe she doesn't either, because he's been doing the same stuff to her all along. I realize that maybe she doesn't know the extent of it, and I don't know what she knows, except that I know she knows about the affair because she contacted me, I know he moved out awhile after she found out, and, according to MM she had suspicions about it continuing but he denied, until recently, when he claims he confirmed. Now, just assuming that all of this is true, or even not the recent confirmation part, because I just don't believe MM would tell her the truth based on his past pattern!, but, does she have self-respect? I think I am wondering this as a way to deal with my guilt because I have had a lot of it for helping to deceive her. So maybe I'm telling myself that we are in the same boat and I chose to walk and she chose to stay as a way to empower myself and get rid of the guilt? I don't know if that makes sense but I'm just trying to be honest and understand myself and the whole situation.

 

I have to admit that I've read posts by women who know their husband is cheating on them and to me sometimes they sound as lacking in self-respect as I was when I was too into MM to stick up for my own needs. Like, sometimes the woman seems desperate to keep the cheater and just keeps clinging on and hoping even when it's clear even to her that the guy is totally continuing to cheat because she allows it (just like OW allows it). Do you guys think that thinking this was is my brain's way of thinking we are all related and all have the same pain and shouldn't do anything to hurt each other? Or is it my way of coping with the guilt by 'looking down' on the wife? I do recognize that the wife didn't ask for it or go into it knowingly like I did. Still, I have to believe that if I were ever cheated on and he kept lying to me and I knew he was still with her, I would want to get strong enough to walk away from that relationship.

 

*Disclaimer: I want to clarify that I'm not talking about people who stay with repentant cheaters who show remorse and do all the right things to re-gain their partner's trust and forgiveness. Like Owl. I am not saying Owl has no self-respect; I think he does and that's why his method probably worked. I'm thinking he was strong enough to say, you stop this or I'm walking away, and mean it. And I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this forum because, well, this is the OW/OM forum so I almost never see posts lamenting a cheating husband etc. I'm actually talking more about different sites than LoveShack all together. Just to clarify.

 

And I realize I probably sound unempathetic or something and I'm not saying my way of thinking is the right way, I'm just trying to figure out why I'm thinking this way and if it's valid or way off base.

[NoIDidn't]

I understand what you are asking. It comes across in certain ways because of the situation. Sounds like you are in the "Rationalization/Bargaining" stage of grieving the end of your affair. And so you are comparing your feelings to hers.

 

I don't think its a valid way of thinking, but I understand why it does. Her feelings and yours are separate - just like your relationships are for the most part.

 

But, with all that said, it is sad how little self-love some cheated on spouses have for themselves. They are so afraid of being alone or of being "left" in this way (for another person), that they'd rather suffer the disrespect than demand some respect.

 

OPs are no different. Its very sad how very little some OPs will accept, and some even beg and bargain for, from the married person in the affair because it validates them and makes them feel worthy to take from what they know should be going to another.

 

Hopefully this phase will pass for you. Just like all the others, you run the risk of getting stuck with irrational thinking (bitterness is the "stuck" of the Anger Phase). The lesson to take away from this in my mind isn't that you were a fool to stay as long as you did, but how long you would let it go on if in the situation (even a non-affair relationship) should you encounter it again. And that you make your decisions based on YOUR feelings, not on what another may or may not be feeling.

[maravilla]

Ok NoIdidn't, so you are saying I'm feeling this way to place myself on more equal footing with his wife? Or maybe above her in footing. I can see it that way too. I don't want to get stuck in the anger or bitterness phase and it's why I'm trying to work these thoughts out. thanks for the help.

[jthorne]

If your question is directed toward BS, I'm curious why you put this on the OW Board.

[BB07]

Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable posting over there since she is fairly new. Speaking for myself sometimes I don't feel comfortable posting in that section although I do more now than I used to.

 

BTW........a good thought provoking thread Maravilla and I think you asked your questions in a respectful way.

[maravilla]

If your question is directed toward BS, I'm curious why you put this on the OW Board.

 

No, sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean for this to be directed towards BS's. I guess I was looking for input from other OWs or former OWs as to what they think about this issue, if they've had similar thoughts.

 

I don't feel comfortable posting in Infidelity or talking to BS's. I know I wronged MM's wife and I'm not meaning my post to take away from that fact. It's just something I've been thinking about for awhile that I wanted to ask in the 'safety' of the OW forum.

[pureinheart]

I understand what you are asking. It comes across in certain ways because of the situation. Sounds like you are in the "Rationalization/Bargaining" stage of grieving the end of your affair. And so you are comparing your feelings to hers.

 

I don't think its a valid way of thinking, but I understand why it does. Her feelings and yours are separate - just like your relationships are for the most part.

 

But, with all that said, it is sad how little self-love some cheated on spouses have for themselves. They are so afraid of being alone or of being "left" in this way (for another person), that they'd rather suffer the disrespect than demand some respect.

 

OPs are no different. Its very sad how very little some OPs will accept, and some even beg and bargain for, from the married person in the affair because it validates them and makes them feel worthy to take from what they know should be going to another.

 

Hopefully this phase will pass for you. Just like all the others, you run the risk of getting stuck with irrational thinking (bitterness is the "stuck" of the Anger Phase). The lesson to take away from this in my mind isn't that you were a fool to stay as long as you did, but how long you would let it go on if in the situation (even a non-affair relationship) should you encounter it again. And that you make your decisions based on YOUR feelings, not on what another may or may not be feeling.

 

This is a really good post, and want to comment that (in bold) I've been seeing a lot of this lately. Maybe it was around and I missed it, I think getting stuck in the anger/bitterness can be futile, leading to many self destructive actions whether they be passive or aggressive.

 

OP- personally I think all parties run the risk of low self esteem and self worth...that could be a common denominator that causes some A's in the first place.

[maravilla]

This is a really good post, and want to comment that (in bold) I've been seeing a lot of this lately. Maybe it was around and I missed it, I think getting stuck in the anger/bitterness can be futile, leading to many self destructive actions whether they be passive or aggressive.

 

OP- personally I think all parties run the risk of low self esteem and self worth...that could be a common denominator that causes some A's in the first place.

 

 

Good point.

 

And FWIW I hope I'm not, and don't feel that I am, getting stuck in any phase. I think I am just going through the phases naturally because I am not that far out (literally, days) of walking away from it all. I know it's bound to come with a lot of different emotions and thoughts, and I'm just trying to process them all and understand them all.

[pureinheart]

No, sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean for this to be directed towards BS's. I guess I was looking for input from other OWs or former OWs as to what they think about this issue, if they've had similar thoughts.

 

I don't feel comfortable posting in Infidelity or talking to BS's. I know I wronged MM's wife and I'm not meaning my post to take away from that fact. It's just something I've been thinking about for awhile that I wanted to ask in the 'safety' of the OW forum.

 

You know...lol....I don't think I've ever started a thread over on the Infidelity forum...no offence to the BS's, although I would feel like a piece of meat in a tank of piranhas...I'm contraversial enough and don't need to add to it:)

[jthorne]

No, sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean for this to be directed towards BS's. I guess I was looking for input from other OWs or former OWs as to what they think about this issue, if they've had similar thoughts.

 

I don't feel comfortable posting in Infidelity or talking to BS's. I know I wronged MM's wife and I'm not meaning my post to take away from that fact. It's just something I've been thinking about for awhile that I wanted to ask in the 'safety' of the OW forum.

So you are asking OW's if they feel that BS's that keep their WS's have low self esteem?

[whichwayisup]

The difference is the wife, the BS is married to him, she has a life built with him, a history, friends, family, kids, a house - everything they worked together for as husband and wife. Why on earth should she give it up so quickly just for some self respect? A marriage isn't about ME ME ME it's about US. The welfare of the family unit, not just what is best for ONE person.

 

An OW has a choice to stay or go, she has nothing invested in MM other than emotions and her heart, where as a BS has everything invested in her husband.

 

Sorry, but comparing this is like apples and oranges.

[whichwayisup]

Ok NoIdidn't, so you are saying I'm feeling this way to place myself on more equal footing with his wife? Or maybe above her in footing. I can see it that way too. I don't want to get stuck in the anger or bitterness phase and it's why I'm trying to work these thoughts out. thanks for the help.

 

This is probably a phase, something you need to ask and wonder about, but don't make it a huge focus . Whatever a BS's reasons are to stay married after Dday are hers, and because a BS has so much invested in her husband it's harder just to up and walk away. Sucking it up is more like it, and doing what is best for the family unit rather than low self esteem and focussing on "me" (general me).

[maravilla]

So you are asking OW's if they feel that BS's that keep their WS's have low self esteem?

 

Yep, pretty much I guess. Or just whether they have thought about this issue, or what their feelings on it are.

 

And I didn't mean to limit it to OWs, certainly BSs are free to answer or anyone who has never been either, or people who have been both, or whatever. I have just been thinking about it and have wondered if others have too, but, like Pureinheart said I would never post it in Infidelity, so, that leaves here, since I am a recent OW and I pretty much only post here, and feel comfiest here. Hope I've explained who my question is aimed at (anyone and everyone) enough...

[maravilla]

The difference is the wife, the BS is married to him, she has a life built with him, a history, friends, family, kids, a house - everything they worked together for as husband and wife. Why on earth should she give it up so quickly just for some self respect? A marriage isn't about ME ME ME it's about US. The welfare of the family unit, not just what is best for ONE person.

 

An OW has a choice to stay or go, she has nothing invested in MM other than emotions and her heart, where as a BS has everything invested in her husband.

 

Sorry, but comparing this is like apples and oranges.

 

I understand that. I don't think I could do it but I understand it. And then again I never thought I would be an OW. So who knows.

 

Thanks for the insight.

[Spark1111]

I have a feeling I'm going to come off as callous with this question, and I don't mean to, I am just genuinely wondering, and it's probably nothing I should even be concerning myself about, but, I'm like that.

 

Lately I've been feeling like I had little self-respect to stay with MM when I was unhappy with how he was treating me and how he was lying to me and stringing me along. I've dealt with the feeling by telling myself that at first I loved and trusted him (undeservedly so, but that is with hindsight and in the beginning it didn't feel that way) and that when I realized his pattern was not going to change, and I could not get over the past hurts he'd caused me, I walked away.

 

So then I think, does the wife who stays with a known continued cheater have self-respect? If I'm going to feel like I had little to none, then maybe she doesn't either, because he's been doing the same stuff to her all along. I realize that maybe she doesn't know the extent of it, and I don't know what she knows, except that I know she knows about the affair because she contacted me, I know he moved out awhile after she found out, and, according to MM she had suspicions about it continuing but he denied, until recently, when he claims he confirmed. Now, just assuming that all of this is true, or even not the recent confirmation part, because I just don't believe MM would tell her the truth based on his past pattern!, but, does she have self-respect? I think I am wondering this as a way to deal with my guilt because I have had a lot of it for helping to deceive her. So maybe I'm telling myself that we are in the same boat and I chose to walk and she chose to stay as a way to empower myself and get rid of the guilt? I don't know if that makes sense but I'm just trying to be honest and understand myself and the whole situation.

 

I have to admit that I've read posts by women who know their husband is cheating on them and to me sometimes they sound as lacking in self-respect as I was when I was too into MM to stick up for my own needs. Like, sometimes the woman seems desperate to keep the cheater and just keeps clinging on and hoping even when it's clear even to her that the guy is totally continuing to cheat because she allows it (just like OW allows it). Do you guys think that thinking this was is my brain's way of thinking we are all related and all have the same pain and shouldn't do anything to hurt each other? Or is it my way of coping with the guilt by 'looking down' on the wife? I do recognize that the wife didn't ask for it or go into it knowingly like I did. Still, I have to believe that if I were ever cheated on and he kept lying to me and I knew he was still with her, I would want to get strong enough to walk away from that relationship.

 

*Disclaimer: I want to clarify that I'm not talking about people who stay with repentant cheaters who show remorse and do all the right things to re-gain their partner's trust and forgiveness. Like Owl. I am not saying Owl has no self-respect; I think he does and that's why his method probably worked. I'm thinking he was strong enough to say, you stop this or I'm walking away, and mean it. And I'm not talking about anyone in particular on this forum because, well, this is the OW/OM forum so I almost never see posts lamenting a cheating husband etc. I'm actually talking more about different sites than LoveShack all together. Just to clarify.

 

And I realize I probably sound unempathetic or something and I'm not saying my way of thinking is the right way, I'm just trying to figure out why I'm thinking this way and if it's valid or way off base.

 

Well, let's assume she does have self-respect.

 

And all you know is what HE is telling you.

 

And all she knows is what HE is telling her.

 

It would be really hard to know the truth of the sitch, because he has a vested interest to keep both you and she strung along.

 

What if you both dump him?

 

So my fWS told her he moved out, but the truth is I threw him out!

 

See the difference? It's huge.

 

He told her he was meeting with "unwavering hostility" in his attempts to reconcile.

 

Who was reconciling? Not me! I told him to go get her! Doubt he told her that.

 

This was me.

 

Some women would reconcile more easily than I did and I do not judge their self-respect issues, because marriage is different for everyone.

 

I was passionately in love with my H, so I was devastated at his betrayal.

 

My SIL did not want to lose her status quo, nor upset their kids. She did take her fWS back readily, angrier at finding out than the actual deed, I think. For some, marriage is a contract, or partnership that drives the family forward.

 

I do not think you are wrong to question or wonder about it. I just think it means different things for different people and it would be impossible to know what is going on in that relationship unless you are a fly on the wall, I think.

[2sure]

I lost no self respect whatsoever when my H cheated on me and I stayed. I think that is because previous in my life I was OW...so I realized that cheating often has nothing to do with the BS , the quality of the marriage or the OW. Eventually I realized my h was a serial cheater and that I could not help him with this issue so I divorced him - because I lost respect for him.

 

I can understand how some BS who choose to stay because of circumstances do not lose self respect - they lose respect for their spouse, consider him an idiot &/or in need of assistance, and realize its not a problem with themselves.

 

Many OW are ok/happy with the conditions/restrictions of seeing a man who is committed to someone else...and they lose no self respect unless they at some point are accepting less than they want or feel they deserve.

[maravilla]

This is probably a phase, something you need to ask and wonder about, but don't make it a huge focus . Whatever a BS's reasons are to stay married after Dday are hers, and because a BS has so much invested in her husband it's harder just to up and walk away. Sucking it up is more like it, and doing what is best for the family unit rather than low self esteem and focussing on "me" (general me).

 

I guess it sort of seems like a double standard to me to say that a BS has her own reasons to suck it up and stay married, because she has a life invested with the MM and such, but that for an OW it's 'just' her heart and her emotions and her love, which, for a single OW like myself, equates to just about everything! And what about OWs who have kids with MM, or long-term OWs who have invested a lot of time and decisions and energy into the relationship? I'm not saying it's a wise decision for them to do this (just like I don't think it's a wise decision for a wife to stay just because she has made investments... if the pain is too much she should leave, just like OWs, IMO, having never BTDT of course). And I know it's not wise to get involved in As in the first place, but still, people get emotionally invested in them, and attached, and do, however foolishly, think about MM and OW as an 'us,' especially when MM is making promises and professing love... and yet all of that doesn't ever seem to be a good enough reason for OWs to stay, and we are pretty much looked down upon, yet it's a good enough reason for the wives to stay and not be looked down upon? I guess that's what I was trying to compare because I guess the part of me that is afraid to get hurt, like the part that was reading Frenchie's post, would much much rather be the OW than the BS, or the OW or BS who is able to walk away from the guy who is hurting her, no matter what investments she's put into him... I don't know if I'm making sense anywhere but in my head, LOL.

 

I do agree that this is something I want to think about but then lay aside, I guess for me it just helps me to think about it in case I am ever in that situation. I never want to be involved in infidelity again but one day I might not have a choice... only a choice as to what to do if it happens. I guess part of it is that I'm mad at myself for getting involved with something that ended up hurting me and in retrospect I should have known it would, but really I didn't for some stupid reason, so I'm just trying to learn as much as I can from the experience for future reference.

[maravilla]

I lost no self respect whatsoever when my H cheated on me and I stayed. I think that is because previous in my life I was OW...so I realized that cheating often has nothing to do with the BS , the quality of the marriage or the OW. Eventually I realized my h was a serial cheater and that I could not help him with this issue so I divorced him - because I lost respect for him.

 

I can understand how some BS who choose to stay because of circumstances do not lose self respect - they lose respect for their spouse, consider him an idiot &/or in need of assistance, and realize its not a problem with themselves.

 

Many OW are ok/happy with the conditions/restrictions of seeing a man who is committed to someone else...and they lose no self respect unless they at some point are accepting less than they want or feel they deserve.

 

I completely understand everything you just said, it makes total sense to me, thanks!!!

 

I guess my only follow-up thought would be that I'm sure there are BS who do lose their self-respect at least for a time, and I could imagine myself doing that, but hopefully not now that I've done it as an OW. I mean to me constantly going back to someone who kept lying to me and not treating me the way I felt I deserved really wore on my self-respect and the only way to start getting it back was to break free... I'm sure some BS have to feel this way too except obviously feel even more justifiably hurt because they did not willingly go into it and were probably blindsided by it. So I guess that is the huge difference that I will never understand even if I try.

[jwi71]

Nope. Perfectly FAIR question. However, it may prove hard to grasp as you are the OW and not the BS. I don't mean to impugne your intelligence at all. What I mean is what the WS tells the BS is FAR different from is told to the OM/OW.

 

You have no idea how far off.

 

I'm a BS. What I was being told was WAY (I mean, not just a little off...think parallel dimension off) from what the OM was being told.

 

Lately I've been feeling like I had little self-respect to stay with MM when I was unhappy with how he was treating me and how he was lying to me and stringing me along. I've dealt with the feeling by telling myself that at first I loved and trusted him (undeservedly so, but that is with hindsight and in the beginning it didn't feel that way) and that when I realized his pattern was not going to change, and I could not get over the past hurts he'd caused me, I walked away.

I agree. I think self-esteem plays a role - a non-trivial role. Because, being an OW is, in most cases, about accepting second place for whatever reason. And that reason will be unique in each A. You will also find they are so very similar. All A's are different - and they are ALL the same.

 

So then I think, does the wife who stays with a known continued cheater have self-respect? If I'm going to feel like I had little to none, then maybe she doesn't either, because he's been doing the same stuff to her all along. I realize that maybe she doesn't know the extent of it, and I don't know what she knows, except that I know she knows about the affair because she contacted me, I know he moved out awhile after she found out, and, according to MM she had suspicions about it continuing but he denied, until recently, when he claims he confirmed. Now, just assuming that all of this is true, or even not the recent confirmation part, because I just don't believe MM would tell her the truth based on his past pattern!, but, does she have self-respect? I think I am wondering this as a way to deal with my guilt because I have had a lot of it for helping to deceive her. So maybe I'm telling myself that we are in the same boat and I chose to walk and she chose to stay as a way to empower myself and get rid of the guilt? I don't know if that makes sense but I'm just trying to be honest and understand myself and the whole situation.

I highlighted the key concepts.

She doesn't KNOW what you know and you don't know what she does so...you either assume OR YOU TRUST THE MM/MW's word. Who has such much to gain by lying and so much to lose by telling the truth.

 

So...he LIES. He lies his azz off. To you and the BW. You have NO IDEA what the M is like. None. For any OM/OW to say they know is patently wrong. You have an interpretation of one half of the M (and a biased one at that).

 

What my now xWW was telling me (I D her 8 months after D-day ...she's still pissed at me for that) was it was because I was distant (I was), that she was lonely (she was), it was stressful (it was) and it was a mistake, and a one time thing and it was a mistake and he meant nothing and she'll never do it again...you get the idea. Minimize until the cows come home.

 

She told the OM (in emails I have) that the M was horrible, no good, very bad. I was abusive, mean, neglectful, terrible H, even worse father and, ultimately, she was convinced I was must be cheating and I rebuffed every attempt to be better. Guess what. None of that was true. Not even close.

 

The truth (as I see it): worked long hard hours to provide and we grew apart due to "life" (kids, house, et al). She also never said a word about being unhappy. We were too busy with everything else and each took the other for granted. Simple really - and not too uncommon.

 

So...given that little bit of insight...understand that what YOU hear is WAY different from what the BS hears. And you really have no idea whats going on in the M. No clue.

 

The BS stays because he/she believes what is being told. Its VERY powerful to hear things like "I am so sorry for jeopardizing our life, our home, our kids for this...he is gone and will never return." Powerful stuff. Consider the 15 years, the hopes, the tragedies, the highs and lows...it makes sense. And do you see it? Do you see the subtle difference?

 

How the WS speaks TO the BS about THEM. The life they have.

Now go read what the MM/MW says to the OW/MM. Its about the M Again isn't it? How they can't leave (the BS fault...or the kids...or whatever)...to stay until "tomorrow". They don't speak about the R or the bond that he/she has for the AP. Its not about moving forward for THEM...its about how they cannot because of the M. Subtle, yet powerful difference.

 

And yes...I filed. I gave up my new unfinished built from foundation dream house, the 911...the life...all of it. So I ALSO balk when I hear it can't be done - it can...I know, I did.

 

What kills the M isn't the A itself. Its the LYING and the broken trust and how they feed each other. This was true for me...I could and did (in time) forgive the A...but the trickle truth and the lies...the inability to trust her....I wasn't going to live like that.

 

Anyways...my thoughts on it. Hope it helps.

[Owl]

Here's my thoughts as a former BS...

 

 

I believe that an OW/OM who remains in a relationship with an affair partner and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

I believe that a BW/BH who remains in a relationship with their wayward spouse and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

I also believe that anyone ends an unhealthy relationship because it won't/can't change shows self-respect.

 

I believe that anyone who fights to change the situation and successfully builds a working relationship out of that chaos shows self-respect.

 

I believe that anyone who allows themselves to remain a BW/BH or an OW/OM long-term with no real sign of change in the situation is not.

 

This is just my opinion...reality may differ without notice.

[Hazyhead]

Hi maravilla! I understand your thought process; I had the same. I thought, 'How can you be with him knowing, or having a sense of, everything he's done?' I couldn't understand it. And yet, I was willing to give my all to this man who was promising me hot air, knowing that he lied to his wife every day and manipulated every situation tomhis advantage. I think when you love someone you see them as you want to see them, or rather, you see the best in them.

 

Now, I don't really think about it. What's the point? It was a part of me trying to give worth to myself and my role in his life when, actually, there was someone else doing the same. Someone who had known him for twenty years and had seen the very worst, but also the very best. Now I see her as a woman of tremendous self-respect, who is shackled to and having to support a man with very little. I hope she demands the very best and accepts nothing less and I hope she leaves if she doesn't get it. All of this has taught me that it's a person who cheats that needs to develop a higher sense of respect for themself.

[maravilla]

Well, let's assume she does have self-respect.

 

And all you know is what HE is telling you.

 

And all she knows is what HE is telling her.

 

It would be really hard to know the truth of the sitch, because he has a vested interest to keep both you and she strung along.

 

What if you both dump him?

 

So my fWS told her he moved out, but the truth is I threw him out!

 

See the difference? It's huge.

 

He told her he was meeting with "unwavering hostility" in his attempts to reconcile.

 

Who was reconciling? Not me! I told him to go get her! Doubt he told her that.

 

This was me.

 

Some women would reconcile more easily than I did and I do not judge their self-respect issues, because marriage is different for everyone.

 

I was passionately in love with my H, so I was devastated at his betrayal.

 

My SIL did not want to lose her status quo, nor upset their kids. She did take her fWS back readily, angrier at finding out than the actual deed, I think. For some, marriage is a contract, or partnership that drives the family forward.

 

I do not think you are wrong to question or wonder about it. I just think it means different things for different people and it would be impossible to know what is going on in that relationship unless you are a fly on the wall, I think.

 

Wow, this post is exactly what I was looking for, thank you. I do feel, and to some extent know based on what he told me and also in my gut, that MM lied all the time to both me and his wife. I have no idea if she threw him out or he moved out voluntarily. Nothing would surprise me.

 

I am really sorry that you were betrayed like that, see, this is what I don't understand because on the one hand I feel very bad for helping to hurt this wife but on the other hand I start to feel like, how could she still want him?, maybe that is my jealousy talking, idk. But when I hear what you say I understand how a wife would want to stay married. It seems to me like you were strong and insisted your needs be met in order to reconcile, but maybe I'm off base about that, idk. But in any case I think your pain must have been a bazillion times worse than mine, as much as I feel like I'm in pain, and I can see how that just doesn't compare at all and why you would have much more motivation to stay.

 

Thank you spark you really helped me understand what I was trying to wrap my head around.

 

[maravilla]

Hi maravilla! I understand your thought process; I had the same. I thought, 'How can you be with him knowing, or having a sense of, everything he's done?' I couldn't understand it. And yet, I was willing to give my all to this man who was promising me hot air, knowing that he lied to his wife every day and manipulated every situation tomhis advantage. I think when you love someone you see them as you want to see them, or rather, you see the best in them.

 

Now, I don't really think about it. What's the point? It was a part of me trying to give worth to myself and my role in his life when, actually, there was someone else doing the same. Someone who had known him for twenty years and had seen the very worst, but also the very best. Now I see her as a woman of tremendous self-respect, who is shackled to and having to support a man with very little. I hope she demands the very best and accepts nothing less and I hope she leaves if she doesn't get it. All of this has taught me that it's a person who cheats that needs to develop a higher sense of respect for themself.

 

Aww I'm so happy that you've reached the place where you can think of it that way. I want to be there too!!

 

MM's BS has definitely invested way more in him than I ever did. He told me that she told him that she is someone who will be there next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, whereas I am just a passing fancy. And she may have been right. Either way the guarantee of her being there after having invested so much was much greater than mine. I guess this helps me understand what would keep him with her even though he claimed the marriage was over and he loved me, etc. I guess it's a very powerful bond that doesn't compare at all to my more 'temporary' feelings.

[maravilla]

Here's my thoughts as a former BS...

 

 

I believe that an OW/OM who remains in a relationship with an affair partner and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

I believe that a BW/BH who remains in a relationship with their wayward spouse and continuing to accept an unchanging situation...is probably not showing much self-respect.

 

I also believe that anyone ends an unhealthy relationship because it won't/can't change shows self-respect.

 

I believe that anyone who fights to change the situation and successfully builds a working relationship out of that chaos shows self-respect.

 

I believe that anyone who allows themselves to remain a BW/BH or an OW/OM long-term with no real sign of change in the situation is not.

 

This is just my opinion...reality may differ without notice.

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say. Those are the similarities I see in OPs and BSs who leave and stay, although of course there are many many differences between them as well.

 

I completely agree with your assessment of things.

[maravilla]

Nope. Perfectly FAIR question. However, it may prove hard to grasp as you are the OW and not the BS. I don't mean to impugne your intelligence at all. What I mean is what the WS tells the BS is FAR different from is told to the OM/OW.

 

You have no idea how far off.

 

I'm a BS. What I was being told was WAY (I mean, not just a little off...think parallel dimension off) from what the OM was being told.

 

I agree. I think self-esteem plays a role - a non-trivial role. Because, being an OW is, in most cases, about accepting second place for whatever reason. And that reason will be unique in each A. You will also find they are so very similar. All A's are different - and they are ALL the same.

 

I highlighted the key concepts.

She doesn't KNOW what you know and you don't know what she does so...you either assume OR YOU TRUST THE MM/MW's word. Who has such much to gain by lying and so much to lose by telling the truth.

 

So...he LIES. He lies his azz off. To you and the BW. You have NO IDEA what the M is like. None. For any OM/OW to say they know is patently wrong. You have an interpretation of one half of the M (and a biased one at that).

 

What my now xWW was telling me (I D her 8 months after D-day ...she's still pissed at me for that) was it was because I was distant (I was), that she was lonely (she was), it was stressful (it was) and it was a mistake, and a one time thing and it was a mistake and he meant nothing and she'll never do it again...you get the idea. Minimize until the cows come home.

 

She told the OM (in emails I have) that the M was horrible, no good, very bad. I was abusive, mean, neglectful, terrible H, even worse father and, ultimately, she was convinced I was must be cheating and I rebuffed every attempt to be better. Guess what. None of that was true. Not even close.

 

The truth (as I see it): worked long hard hours to provide and we grew apart due to "life" (kids, house, et al). She also never said a word about being unhappy. We were too busy with everything else and each took the other for granted. Simple really - and not too uncommon.

 

So...given that little bit of insight...understand that what YOU hear is WAY different from what the BS hears. And you really have no idea whats going on in the M. No clue.

 

The BS stays because he/she believes what is being told. Its VERY powerful to hear things like "I am so sorry for jeopardizing our life, our home, our kids for this...he is gone and will never return." Powerful stuff. Consider the 15 years, the hopes, the tragedies, the highs and lows...it makes sense. And do you see it? Do you see the subtle difference?

 

How the WS speaks TO the BS about THEM. The life they have.

Now go read what the MM/MW says to the OW/MM. Its about the M Again isn't it? How they can't leave (the BS fault...or the kids...or whatever)...to stay until "tomorrow". They don't speak about the R or the bond that he/she has for the AP. Its not about moving forward for THEM...its about how they cannot because of the M. Subtle, yet powerful difference.

 

And yes...I filed. I gave up my new unfinished built from foundation dream house, the 911...the life...all of it. So I ALSO balk when I hear it can't be done - it can...I know, I did.

 

What kills the M isn't the A itself. Its the LYING and the broken trust and how they feed each other. This was true for me...I could and did (in time) forgive the A...but the trickle truth and the lies...the inability to trust her....I wasn't going to live like that.

 

Anyways...my thoughts on it. Hope it helps.

 

It really helps to hear it from this perspective.

 

Thank you.

 

I'm sure MM told his wife much of the same stuff your xWW told you. It is just enlightening to virtually step into those shoes.

 

I'm glad you found the strength to leave when you knew that was the best decision for you. Best wishes.