Cheap Boyfriend, But Never Cheap Girlfriend?

[Els]

I already answered the question.

 

I take care of myself as well.

 

And I like girls who look good with only,very little makeup. Contrary to your belief, tons of girls have natural beauty. I see them every day.

 

I dont really need 50% split on dates. Just show concern for me financially. Dont somehow feel that you deserve and expect to be thrown money at.

 

 

 

I'm 100% behind people who choose to wait. I think that by taking sex off the table you can sometimes build greater emotional intimacy.

 

Sexless marriages are crap and the withholding partner is just as bad as a cheater... excluding those with medical issues.

 

 

 

Women are not judged by their income. For the most part Men don't care what you make.

 

I'm not saying beauty doesn't require some effort. Black women in particular have to go through absolute Hades with their hair.

 

What I'm saying is that you don't do this for one guy... you do it for yourself.

 

 

 

I've never turned down a woman because of her nails.

 

In the link you provided... I'd say she would probably look good to great without much more than eyeliner. Just going to guess that her wardrobe is the largest expense. Followed by hair products then skin cremes and then makeup.

 

It's been proven that $500 skin cremes are no more effective than $5 ones. Some women even buy the cremes with flakes of gold in them... and swear by it.

 

Also... don't make the mistake of thinking men are not held to any standards. The difference is this... Women put effort into beauty so that they can be more selective about the men they date. Men put effort into being attractive so that they can even get a date. I and a good many other men pour large amounts of time and effort into looking good... and we have to have winning personalities... and loads of money.

 

How do both of you 'take care of yourself'? What does it entail, besides exercising (which women need to do as much of, if not more than you, to keep in shape)? How much do you spend on your appearance per month, as an estimate?

 

For the last time, I'm not talking about overdone, overmadeup, princessy-looking girls. Skin that looks good without foundation/concealer is actually a helluva lot harder to obtain than to just use the foundation. Contrary to your belief, some of the higher-range skincare products such as SKII and Neutrogena DO produce better results (they certainly don't have flakes of gold in them though!!). So do hair treatments, serum, and conditioner by Schwarkopf (or however you spell it, meh). All of those aren't that expensive one by one, they used to cost about $40-$80 per tube or bottle back where I come from (not sure how much they cost in the USA). But together, they sure do add up.

 

Men are held to standards of attraction but really all men need to do to appear average in terms of appearance (besides not being born too short) is to work out (which women need to do as well), get a decent haircut ($20 will suffice), wear some decent clothes (which women need to do as well), and maintain personal hygiene (which women need to do as well).

 

A woman needs to use cleanser, toner, moisturiser, hair serum and treatments and conditioner, a 'bit' of makeup (quote both of you), needs to spend time each morning blowdrying/styling her hair or invest in chemical processes to keep it straight/curly for the next few months (or both, if her hair is really unfortunate), needs to shave/wax her armpits and legs, pluck her eyebrows... you guys just don't see it, but expect the results. Yes a few women are born with lovely natural hair and can just get up, comb it, and dash off and look great; but trust me, those are about as common as guys who look ripped but don't really exercise much.

 

I know that I, for example, can look a lot better if I were to invest all that time and effort and money into it. But I refuse to, for the same principle that both of you are refusing to spend money on women, perhaps. Don't you see? It's really the same coin, just different sides. Money spent on acquiring a partner is money spent on acquiring a partner, whether you are spending a little to increase your chances with one partner, or spending a lot to increase your chances with many partners. If you understand the value of money and don't want to spend it frivolously on simply attracting the opposite sex, then don't expect it in return. That's all I'm saying.

 

If I were in the dating scene (which I'm not), I would honestly rather have to just pay $40 for an initial date once in a while to improve my marketability, for the option of having a man's 'beauty routine'.

[sanskrit]

If I were in the dating scene (which I'm not), I would honestly rather have to just pay $40 for an initial date once in a while to improve my marketability, for the option of having a man's 'beauty routine'.

 

Would you spend $300-$500 per month? that's 6ish or a few more dates per month at $50 per, and as much as people talk about the costs of dating and low cost dates, it's -real- hard for an adult to have a decent date and spend $50 or less, especially if any alcohol at all is involved. Women just love to order and suck down (because there is so little alcohol in them) those $12 fancy call brand drinks while I'm drinking a $4 well brand on the rocks for hours.

 

I listened for what seemed like forever how "fabby" and how much better LaMer skin cream is than regular old skin cream at $100 per bottle. Watched as the woman wouldn't let soap touch her body that didn't cost $12 per bar, and had cabinets full of Jo Malone stuff that smells great, but is WAY overpriced and doesn't smell any better than cheaper stuff. Dated a woman who spent $500 per month on her hair alone and have dated many who have more $ in shoes on the floor of their closet than my car is worth. Multiply this times 20 or so women of this type and the "we do it for men" starts to ring real hollow. If she has the money to treat herself in this way, more power to her, but never try to equate that with the relatively unavoidable money that early dates cost. It's necessity v luxury and vanity.

[TheBigQuestion]

It's necessity v luxury and vanity.

 

This is the crucial distinction that continues to fall on deaf ears. Or is it blind eyes since it's a message board?

[Els]

Would you spend $300-$500 per month? that's 6ish or a few more dates per month at $50 per, and as much as people talk about the costs of dating and low cost dates, it's -real- hard for an adult to have a decent date and spend $50 or less, especially if any alcohol at all is involved. Women just love to order and suck down (because there is so little alcohol in them) those $12 fancy call brand drinks while I'm drinking a $4 well brand on the rocks for hours.

 

Do you really date 6 new women every single month? And do you really spend $50 upwards on every single date? If so, you need to consider being more discriminatory. Just as it's unnecessary for women to wear a Prada bag to impress good men, it's unnecessary to bring a woman for expensive dates all the time to impress good women.

 

I listened for what seemed like forever how "fabby" and how much better LaMer skin cream is than regular old skin cream at $100 per bottle. Watched as the woman wouldn't let soap touch her body that didn't cost $12 per bar, and had cabinets full of Jo Malone stuff that smells great, but is WAY overpriced and doesn't smell any better than cheaper stuff. Dated a woman who spent $500 per month on her hair alone and have dated many who have more $ in shoes on the floor of their closet than my car is worth. Multiply this times 20 or so women of this type and the "we do it for men" starts to ring real hollow. If she has the money to treat herself in this way, more power to her, but never try to equate that with the relatively unavoidable money that early dates cost. It's necessity v luxury and vanity.

Have you ever dated a woman who didn't spend on ANY of that?

 

Another case in point: Just watched my bf get ready for a formal graduation dinner. He spent all of 10 minutes getting ready: Ironed his shirt and slacks, gelled his hair, put on his coat and tie and formal shoes that he already uses for work. That was it. Had it been me going, I would have had to blowdry/flatiron my hair, put on a few items of makeup, shave my legs, put on a few pieces of jewellery/accessories, put on a formal dress (which I would probably need to change my underclothes to match; you can't wear a sports bra or no bra with most of those) and dress heels. Not only would all the stuff I have to put on cost more, I can't even reuse them as much as he does because a guy can wear the same coat all the damn time, and their formal shoes are comfortable enough to serve for work as well. AND it would take me at least 40 minutes to get ready. And I'm just doing the bare minimum compared to women who get salon appointments for such events.

[kdark]

Another case in point: Just watched my bf get ready for a formal graduation dinner. He spent all of 10 minutes getting ready: Ironed his shirt and slacks, gelled his hair, put on his coat and tie and formal shoes that he already uses for work. That was it. Had it been me going, I would have had to blowdry/flatiron my hair, put on a few items of makeup, shave my legs, put on a few pieces of jewellery/accessories, put on a formal dress (which I would probably need to change my underclothes to match; you can't wear a sports bra or no bra with most of those) and dress heels. Not only would all the stuff I have to put on cost more, I can't even reuse them as much as he does because a guy can wear the same coat all the damn time, and their formal shoes are comfortable enough to serve for work as well. AND it would take me at least 40 minutes to get ready. And I'm just doing the bare minimum compared to women who get salon appointments for such events.

 

Why do you do all of that if you hate it so much?

[sanskrit]

Do you really date 6 new women every single month? And do you really spend $50 upwards on every single date? If so, you need to consider being more discriminatory. Just as it's unnecessary for women to wear a Prada bag to impress good men, it's unnecessary to bring a woman for expensive dates all the time to impress good women.

 

I'm not dating at the moment. I tend to do a dating period once per year, and it takes a couple of months until I find the next future ex Sanskrit GF (and then the REAL cash outlay begins). But you are not doing fair math. If you are seeing three women, odds are you will see them once a week. That's twelve dates in a month, not six. Just dating two women once a week? Eight dates. Dating one woman twice a week? Again, eight dates. A fifty dollar date is not "expensive" at all, and many women will think a man cheap who only spends $50 on dates. I had a woman who was a little tipsy call me cheap to my face after I had spent $80 on drinks alone, $15 chips and dip, $12 margueritas times 3 each over three hours or so at a nicer place (but I had no idea it was that pricey). I was cheap in her eyes because I only tipped the valet parking attendant $2. It was all I had in cash and had already paid $8 for valet parking to begin with.

 

There are nickel and dime costs with dating that people don't account. Parking can be $10 including tip (she's not going to appreciate walking three blocks on a dark street to avoid the valet charge). Keeping your car clean to have a woman inside it costs regular money. Cover charges at museums, music, clubs can be $20+ for two right there, the main museum in my area is $17 A HEAD now. God forbid you take her to an event, most music shows with name acts cost $50-150 per ticket these days, same as sporting events. Food at many venues, movies, sports, is ridiculously overpriced. Sure, it's -possible- to get by on $50, but in reality, in a city, that's the exception.

 

Have you ever dated a woman who didn't spend on ANY of that?

 

Many, and the funny thing is, the ones who don't spend on that stuff tend to be more attractive because they don't try to paint their imperfections away, and look good via the very cheap "diet and exercise" route that used to be the reason most women who looked good looked how they did. Women complain that men look good with a 5 minute shower, that their hair can look good with just a cheap conditioner or a little product. Thing is, lots more men are in the gym regularly than women, don't eat the junk that many women eat, don't go to tanning beds or lay out, don't stress their hair, don't attempt to hide blemishes with pore clogging stuff that causes more damage than it conceals, and -that's- what makes it easier to have nice skin and hair.

 

AND it would take me at least 40 minutes to get ready.

 

Other than hair, that's your fault for dawdling if it truly takes that long. Generally when men get ready, we aren't on the phone, texting, sipping wine, snacking, etc. We get ready. Look, I've been around, and know -exactly- how women waste time getting ready. They sit and stare in the mirror in the time it takes me to shower and shave. They try on one or more things and want an opinion. They -dawdle- Men generally don't because we don't get the same pleasure out of doodying up as women do, and don't take it as a social event to chat with friends when doing it. That's why it takes us less time, not because it is so much "easier" for us.

Edited November 18, 2010 by sanskrit

[Sanman]

A fifty dollar date is not "expensive" at all, and many women will think a man cheap who only spends $50 on dates. I had a woman who was a little tipsy call me cheap to my face after I had spent $80 on drinks alone, $15 chips and dip, $12 margueritas times 3 each over three hours or so at a nicer place (but I had no idea it was that pricey). I was cheap in her eyes because I only tipped the valet parking attendant $2. It was all I had in cash and had already paid $8 for valet parking to begin with.

 

There are nickel and dime costs with dating that people don't account. Parking can be $10 including tip (she's not going to appreciate walking three blocks on a dark street to avoid the valet charge). Keeping your car clean to have a woman inside it costs regular money. Cover charges at museums, music, clubs can be $20+ for two right there, the main museum in my area is $17 A HEAD now. God forbid you take her to an event, most music shows with name acts cost $50-150 per ticket these days, same as sporting events. Food at many venues, movies, sports, is ridiculously overpriced. Sure, it's -possible- to get by on $50, but in reality, in a city, that's the exception.

 

I have to agree with this as it is my big pet peeve during dating. The best part of this is, if you are any sort of decent guy, the woman gets a say. I had planned a first date with a woman to a nice middle eastern restaurant once. On the way there, we walked by a gastropub that she wanted to try. Now, these gastropubs are all the rage with their $30 burgers, but I would have been going from a $50 bill to a close to $100 bill for us. The scary part is that the woman clearly had not even glanced at the price side of the menu. As for nickel and dime things, I agree as well. Women do not want to travel far for an early date and like to be driven if possible. This means the guy is traveling and spending money prior to even getting to a date. And even if you plan a cheap date, you have to do so without looking cheap. I have done museum dates where ticket prices are donations, but if I don't do the suggested donation she may think I am cheap (I have to get there ahead of time and get the tickets to avoid this). I remember calculating for a friend that at one date a wk/$50 a date, it costs $2500/yr just to start being in the game. All this to meet women that I don't even know. I have no problem spending on someone i know and care about, but spending that much just to meet people seems ridiculous.

[musemaj11]

Wow, the stories really scare me. I'm still in college n college girls aren't so expensive. Also I don't live in a rich area. I guess I'm lucky.

 

I think men should stay away from online dating. It seems like a medium for prostitutes to get men to feed them without giving anything in return.

[musemaj11]

These women are the defenition of "high maintenance" and women Men try to avoid

Yeah pretty much.

 

I live with a sister and two aunts. None of them spends that much money. They don't look hot or stunning. But they look fine n they attract good guys who are actually attracted to them the way they r not the 'clown' version of them.

[Els]

Why do you do all of that if you hate it so much?

 

Actually, I don't. And that is the exact same question you should ask the men here complaining about paying for the first few dates. If you hate paying so much, why do it? Obviously, they will answer that they will be judged negatively by women if they don't, and that is why they feel it's unfair. Equally so, I feel it is unfair that some guys (who evidently spend less time and money on their appearance than I do) judge me for the fact that I look plain due to not having done the beauty rigmarole. (Before you go all 'well you're just ugly then and no amount of primping will change it, blah blah', those same guys' jaws pretty much dropped when they saw me all dressed up for college prom, and they didn't treat me the same again.) And that is why I feel it is so hypocritical of men who complain of being judged for not fulfilling an antiquated male role, to expect women to keep up their antiquated female role (let's face it, beauty has long been considered more important for women than for men) regardless.

 

I'm not dating at the moment. I tend to do a dating period once per year, and it takes a couple of months until I find the next future ex Sanskrit GF (and then the REAL cash outlay begins). But you are not doing fair math. If you are seeing three women, odds are you will see them once a week. That's twelve dates in a month, not six. Just dating two women once a week? Eight dates. Dating one woman twice a week? Again, eight dates.

 

I think the general consensus among women here is that it's gentlemanly to pay for the first date or two, not all dates.

 

A fifty dollar date is not "expensive" at all, and many women will think a man cheap who only spends $50 on dates. I had a woman who was a little tipsy call me cheap to my face after I had spent $80 on drinks alone, $15 chips and dip, $12 margueritas times 3 each over three hours or so at a nicer place (but I had no idea it was that pricey). I was cheap in her eyes because I only tipped the valet parking attendant $2. It was all I had in cash and had already paid $8 for valet parking to begin with.

Jesus. Is it really necessary to go to nice restaurants and valet parking for every single date? If you feel you have to do so to impress the women you want to get, you're aiming for the wrong women. And yes, that woman you're talking about is a bitch.

 

There are nickel and dime costs with dating that people don't account. Parking can be $10 including tip (she's not going to appreciate walking three blocks on a dark street to avoid the valet charge). Keeping your car clean to have a woman inside it costs regular money. Cover charges at museums, music, clubs can be $20+ for two right there, the main museum in my area is $17 A HEAD now. God forbid you take her to an event, most music shows with name acts cost $50-150 per ticket these days, same as sporting events. Food at many venues, movies, sports, is ridiculously overpriced. Sure, it's -possible- to get by on $50, but in reality, in a city, that's the exception.

Again, note the 'first few dates' clause. I don't think I've heard a woman here say 'I want a guy to pay everything for every single date'.

 

Many, and the funny thing is, the ones who don't spend on that stuff tend to be more attractive because they don't try to paint their imperfections away, and look good via the very cheap "diet and exercise" route that used to be the reason most women who looked good looked how they did. Women complain that men look good with a 5 minute shower, that their hair can look good with just a cheap conditioner or a little product. Thing is, lots more men are in the gym regularly than women, don't eat the junk that many women eat, don't go to tanning beds or lay out, don't stress their hair, don't attempt to hide blemishes wit, the pore clogging stuff that causes more damage than it conceals, and -that's- what makes it easier to have nice skin and hair.

Nonsense. Firstly, it takes more exercise for a woman to achieve the same level of slenderness as a man because women's basal metabolic rate is lower. Secondly, the tanning bed thingy always confuddled me, but it's no lie that some men prefer tanned women. Thirdly, glad to see you don't mind your women not wearing any makeup to cover their blemishes, then. Plenty of men mind, because they don't want to be seen with a woman with blemished skin. Fourthly, I dare you to keep your hair shoulder-long and achieve the nice, sleek look that men like to see on women with just a cheap conditioner. Go on. Men's hair is easier to manage because it is in general shorter, and short hair doesn't get frizzy/messy so easily!

 

Don't tell me how it's like to 'not spend on that sort of stuff'. I don't. I perpetually keep my hair up in a ponytail because my type of hair simply will not behave without daily flatironing or chemical treatment, and I refuse to spend that sort of time and money on it. I have never 'stressed' my hair. I could go on, but the point is, I know how it's like to not do the beauty rigmarole because I don't, even though I know I could look probably a 7 or 8 if I did. And I believe, from your posts, that the majority of you 'oh it's so easy to achieve natural beauty' men would not want to be with girls who look like me. It takes a special sort of man to look past a woman's appearance into what lies in her head and heart - and most men aren't that sort of man.

 

Other than hair, that's your fault for dawdling if it truly takes that long. Generally when men get ready, we aren't on the phone, texting, sipping wine, snacking, etc. We get ready. Look, I've been around, and know -exactly- how women waste time getting ready. They sit and stare in the mirror in the time it takes me to shower and shave. They try on one or more things and want an opinion. They -dawdle- Men generally don't because we don't get the same pleasure out of doodying up as women do, and don't take it as a social event to chat with friends when doing it. That's why it takes us less time, not because it is so much "easier" for us.

You evidently haven't tried blow-drying and flat-ironing long and thick hair, shaving your legs clean or putting on professional-looking makeup (makeup that looks like a clown takes 10 seconds, good looking makeup takes maybe 10 minutes unless you're very well-practised).

 

I have to agree with this as it is my big pet peeve during dating. The best part of this is, if you are any sort of decent guy, the woman gets a say. I had planned a first date with a woman to a nice middle eastern restaurant once. On the way there, we walked by a gastropub that she wanted to try. Now, these gastropubs are all the rage with their $30 burgers, but I would have been going from a $50 bill to a close to $100 bill for us.

 

Again, the woman was either very naive or a bitch. Don't judge all women by that.

Edited November 18, 2010 by Elswyth

[Els]

And no, OP, you didn't answer my question. It is irrelevant that you expect a woman to 'look good' because you 'look good'. I maintain that standards of beauty are higher for women, hence it takes more money and time for a woman to 'look good' than for you. The question was, "Will you be okay with a woman who doesn't spend a penny or a second more on her appearance than you do"?

[Cobra_X]

I think the general consensus among women here is that it's gentlemanly to pay for the first date or two, not all dates.

Jesus. Is it really necessary to go to nice restaurants and valet parking for every single date? If you feel you have to do so to impress the women you want to get, you're aiming for the wrong women. And yes, that woman you're talking about is a bitch.

Again, note the 'first few dates' clause. I don't think I've heard a woman here say 'I want a guy to pay everything for every single date'.

Nonsense. Firstly, it takes more exercise for a woman to achieve the same level of slenderness as a man because women's basal metabolic rate is lower. Secondly, the tanning bed thingy always confuddled me, but it's no lie that some men prefer tanned women. Thirdly, glad to see you don't mind your women not wearing any makeup to cover their blemishes, then. Plenty of men mind, because they don't want to be seen with a woman with blemished skin. Fourthly, I dare you to keep your hair shoulder-long and achieve the nice, sleek look that men like to see on women with just a cheap conditioner. Go on. Men's hair is easier to manage because it is in general shorter, and short hair doesn't get frizzy/messy so easily!

Don't tell me how it's like to 'not spend on that sort of stuff'. I don't. I perpetually keep my hair up in a ponytail because my type of hair simply will not behave without daily flatironing or chemical treatment, and I refuse to spend that sort of time and money on it. I have never 'stressed' my hair. I could go on, but the point is, I know how it's like to not do the beauty rigmarole because I don't, even though I know I could look probably a 7 or 8 if I did. And I believe, from your posts, that the majority of you 'oh it's so easy to achieve natural beauty' men would not want to be with girls who look like me. It takes a special sort of man to look past a woman's appearance into what lies in her head and heart - and most men aren't that sort of man.

You evidently haven't tried blow-drying and flat-ironing long and thick hair, shaving your legs clean or putting on professional-looking makeup (makeup that looks like a clown takes 10 seconds, good looking makeup takes maybe 10 minutes unless you're very well-practised).

Again, the woman was either very naive or a bitch. Don't judge all women by that.

 

Dating at 30 is a little different from what your thinking.

 

The expectation for dates is where you look down at the menu... not up. Those range from 50-100 a date, unless you live in a trailer court.... and then your probably trying to pay with food stamps anyway.

 

I don't understand where you get this crazy idea that women don't expect much on dates beyond wit and charm.

 

You should probably just concede the point vs. men with real world experience.

[Els]

If you didn't read, the OP is in college, not 30+. Context, please.

[sally4sara]

I don't like the idea of women giving more regard for a man who spends money more freely on them. It guarantees nothing. You'll find out more of what they are made of if you DON'T let them resort to such a lazy tactic as spending money.

 

Take note - a guy stating his monthly dating bill is as much as $500 complains that a woman can be TOO sexual to be worth it. But he isn't sitting at home viewing porn with a dating expense bill as high as $500.

 

So why think a guy like this is special for his willingness to come out of pocket for you - when it also means he is getting around at a rate that would make you "cheap" for doing the same.

 

That's a man quite fluent in the language of sex for money so how special could his buying you dinner really be?

[TheBigQuestion]

Elswyth, maybe the point I'm trying to make is different from the other posters, but no one really seems to get it. I don't deny that on the average, women will take more time to get ready/look good and may spend a bit more money. The issue at the heart of this entire discussion has more to do with women thinking that certain things are requirements either expected by or imposed by men, and that simply isn't the case most of the time.

 

Most men think women who go to tanning booths look just plain fake. Some guys may like tan women, but if you're naturally pasty white and you start walking around with a bright orange glow on your skin, pretty much the only guys that are going to be interested in you are your stereotypical Jersey Shore meatheads. Seriously. I have a hard time believing that any female who is over the age of 22 actually defends the existence of tanning beds to any degree. This is really just an example that a lot of so called female beauty standards are self imposed or arise spontaneously and simply do not reflect the reality of men's desires.

[sanskrit]

Jesus. Is it really necessary to go to nice restaurants and valet parking for every single date? If you feel you have to do so to impress the women you want to get, you're aiming for the wrong women. And yes, that woman you're talking about is a bitch.

 

Twas just one example. Take a woman to a dark street as opposed to the well-lit valet lot on an early date and see exactly what she thinks of you afterwards. The point was that my bitchy date was buzzed enough to say out loud what many women think about their dates due to emotional response rather than reason, and that kind of perception is where I take issue. She totally forgot that I had just spent $100 on her including food, tax and tip, and couldn't see past my only giving the valet a $2 tip.

 

Keep saying that most women aren't prone to that kind of "missing the forest for the trees" thinking in early dating (it's all over this dating board), and I will keep asking you how many women you've dated? Even the rottenest, wormiest apple can put on a good show for 3-5 dates (and sure this goes for men as well, but that's not the thread topic), so it's not just a matter of weeding them out early. I'm a genius, but certainly no psychic .

 

Again, note the 'first few dates' clause. I don't think I've heard a woman here say 'I want a guy to pay everything for every single date'.

 

For me it runs about 50/50 on this, 50% expect the man always pays til death. The other 50% will actually pitch in and buy me a Happy Meal for every $1000 or so I spend. And let's not even get into holidays and the imbalances there. I've heard of these mythical GFs who spend more on the guy than he does her, but alas, like the unicorn, they have eluded me. Had one glibly order a $200 bottle of wine on my tab once and then give me a $10 business cardholder as a gift, then ask me 10 times if I liked it. ("Sure honey, I like it almost as much as this $200 wine you just ordered, hopefully the card holder will impress a new client enough to get me $200 worth of business... not.")

 

Nonsense. Firstly, it takes more exercise for a woman to achieve the same level of slenderness as a man because women's basal metabolic rate is lower.

 

...and in exchange for that lower metabolic rate, women can carry a -much- higher percentage of body fat than men and still look attractive. They can even have a really big ass and soft thighs if their waist is narrow enough. Women have no idea how totally unnatural and monstrously difficult a six pack, or even having a "cut" appearance is for an average sized man (shorter, smaller framed men tend to have a slightly easier time, but still a truly herculean effort). No comparison.

 

Secondly, the tanning bed thingy always confuddled me, but it's no lie that some men prefer tanned women.

 

Don't act like a gigantic percentage of women are sun and tanbed worshippers primarily because men expect it. Personally, I prefer pale, soft skin as opposed to rubbing back and forth on a scaly hide, and most men I know are exactly the same. You can't see a tan in the dark and I have a leather couch already; if I want to rub back and forth on that it's free.

 

Thirdly, glad to see you don't mind your women not wearing any makeup to cover their blemishes, then.

 

Have dated a few redheads with the unfortunate "cow spatter" complexion who really need to do this, most don't. Far more women have bad skin due to too much makeup than are able to convincingly conceal bad skin with too much makeup.

 

Fourthly, I dare you to keep your hair shoulder-long and achieve the nice, sleek look that men like to see on women with just a cheap conditioner. Go on. Men's hair is easier to manage because it is in general shorter, and short hair doesn't get frizzy/messy so easily!

 

I've been in lots of womens' bathrooms and their showers. I can tell no difference whatsoever between nice hair on a woman who uses cheap shampoo and conditioner, and one who uses the best salon stuff. BTW, the stuff in the salon is usually repackaged and sold at Target under a different name for 1/10 the price. Just a pro shopping tip for ya! And that brings up another point, do you really think it's not all mostly the same stuff from the same vat? If so you probably think designer vodkas are better than Absolut also.

 

And I believe, from your posts, that the majority of you 'oh it's so easy to achieve natural beauty' men would not want to be with girls who look like me. It takes a special sort of man to look past a woman's appearance into what lies in her head and heart - and most men aren't that sort of man.

 

Do you look good sweaty with your head leaned back and mouth wide open grabbing the rails on an iron bed? If so, that's good enough for most of us. The metrosexuals... you don't really want them anyway, right? because they aren't going to get you into that state of female beauty that men appreciate most.

[Mme. Chaucer]

For me it runs about 50/50 on this, 50% expect the man always pays til death. The other 50% will actually pitch in and buy me a Happy Meal for every $1000 or so I spend. And let's not even get into holidays and the imbalances there. I've heard of these mythical GFs who spend more on the guy than he does her, but alas, like the unicorn, they have eluded me. Had one glibly order a $200 bottle of wine on my tab once and then give me a $10 business cardholder as a gift, then ask me 10 times if I liked it. ("Sure honey, I like it almost as much as this $200 wine you just ordered, hopefully the card holder will impress a new client enough to get me $200 worth of business... not.")

 

Since you despise women who are such a financial drain on you, and the dating construct you participate in ... why do you continue to repeat the exact same patterns, according to you with many dozens of different women? You are a willing participant, not a "victim" in any way. From the sound of it, you are getting some needs met by continuing with all that nonsense which you detest so much. What is the reward? Having more ammo for your hatred of women?

 

If you're not benefitting from it (not to even suggest enjoying it) - stop it. If you want to be with a woman who spends more money on you than you do on her, hold out for that. Otherwise, stop the whining. Your own behavior is all on you.

[Els]

Do you look good sweaty with your head leaned back and mouth wide open grabbing the rails on an iron bed? If so, that's good enough for most of us. The metrosexuals... you don't really want them anyway, right? because they aren't going to get you into that state of female beauty that men appreciate most.

 

Similarly, I believe most decent women are perfectly happy with you treating them to a reasonably-priced first date, and thereafter sharing the cost. Those who insist on being wined and dined at the most expensive places and call you cheap if you don't... you don't want them anyway right?

[sanskrit]

Since you despise women

 

The first instance of this in one of your posts is where I stop reading them these days. Hope it was a good one!

[musemaj11]

Since you despise women who are such a financial drain on you, and the dating construct you participate in ... why do you continue to repeat the exact same patterns, according to you with many dozens of different women? You are a willing participant, not a "victim" in any way. From the sound of it, you are getting some needs met by continuing with all that nonsense which you detest so much. What is the reward? Having more ammo for your hatred of women?

 

If you're not benefitting from it (not to even suggest enjoying it) - stop it. If you want to be with a woman who spends more money on you than you do on her, hold out for that. Otherwise, stop the whining. Your own behavior is all on you.

Because as chris rock says, "when u have a woman, u wanna kill her. But when u don't have a woman, u wanna kill yourself."

 

As normal human beings, men also have social n physiological needs. Otherwise, no man would even bother sharing a single word with a woman.

[Mme. Chaucer]

The first instance of this in one of your posts is where I stop reading them these days. Hope it was a good one!

 

Fine. I'll continue to post for those who do read what I have to say.

 

But do you despise women who are a financial drain on you (that was my complete post), or not? Your posts sound full of disgust.

 

So, why participate in that mess?

 

There are women, lots and lots of them, who don't.

 

That is why I mentioned your "circle of friends," as you put it. If your experiences with dating and women are like you say:

 

For me it runs about 50/50 on this, 50% expect the man always pays til death. The other 50% will actually pitch in and buy me a Happy Meal for every $1000 or so I spend. And let's not even get into holidays and the imbalances there. I've heard of these mythical GFs who spend more on the guy than he does her, but alas, like the unicorn, they have eluded me. Had one glibly order a $200 bottle of wine on my tab once and then give me a $10 business cardholder as a gift, then ask me 10 times if I liked it. ("Sure honey, I like it almost as much as this $200 wine you just ordered, hopefully the card holder will impress a new client enough to get me $200 worth of business... not.")

 

That is appalling. You don't even experience a portion of a percent of "decent" behavior from women, and from your posts you never have. Money spent is clearly of deep importance to you, yet you will continue to spend up to $1000 and accept a mere happy meal in return. Why, if you have a big problem with that dynamic? Why are YOU doing that?

 

It's logical to suggest that maybe a lifestyle change is in order, if you want different results.

[Cobra_X]

For me it runs about 50/50 on this, 50% expect the man always pays til death. The other 50% will actually pitch in and buy me a Happy Meal for every $1000 or so I spend. And let's not even get into holidays and the imbalances there. I've heard of these mythical GFs who spend more on the guy than he does her, but alas, like the unicorn, they have eluded me. Had one glibly order a $200 bottle of wine on my tab once and then give me a $10 business cardholder as a gift, then ask me 10 times if I liked it. ("Sure honey, I like it almost as much as this $200 wine you just ordered, hopefully the card holder will impress a new client enough to get me $200 worth of business... not.")

 

Sans... I'm going to weigh in here because in these specific situations your just being too passive. It took me some time to grow into this, especially since I'm laid back naturally.

 

If a woman orders a $200 bottle of wine on your tab... unless your happy to pay for it, you really need to call her out. Stand up for yourself in these situations. There are some women that like to just see what they can get away with... guys too. If you let them they will completely take advantage of you. So... Don't let them!

 

If you need some help with how to be aggressive and what type of attitude to take... start a thread on it then other posters and I can give you some pointers.

 

Seriously... dating can sure suck sometimes, but it gets much, much easier and more fun if you put the right attitudes in place. Honestly, I could not even imagine how awful it would be to have to date men. Half of us are creeps and weirdos.

[sanskrit]

But do you despise women who are a financial drain on you (that was my complete post), or not? Your posts sound full of disgust.

 

You mean the ones with the smiley faces about the leather sofa? That and the Happy Meal reference were jokes. It seemed that Elswyth, whom the post was quoting, got the jokes. I have indeed had women who carried some weight in the spending, just never 50/50 even after many months of dating. That's fine though. I believe I used the word "annoyed" specifically, because that is the extent of my feeling on the issue, mild annoyance, and the annoyance is at men being held to standards that women aren't today.

 

The reason I keep participating is optimism. I do have happily married friends, about 30% of marrieds I know are happy, few blissfully so, but not many people are blissfully happy these days anyway.

 

Money spent is clearly of deep importance to you,

 

It's actually not, the principle that very many women expect money from a man, whom they may even outearn, is important, not deeply so, but important. Also important is that there are many women who earn excellent salaries who refuse to date men who do not. It doesn't apply to me personally, but to many of my friends, who make average incomes but find themselves priced out of the dating market by female expectations. Most men I know are happy if they can make enough to have a pleasant lifestyle, and don't care what their SO makes. Many women I know absolutely will not date a man who earns less. This is an important distinction tangential to the thread topic.

 

I do appreciate the low ratio of "woman hating" verbiage to actual discussion in your last post, let's both try to keep that demeanor, shall we?

[sanskrit]

Stand up for yourself in these situations.

 

You are exactly right, and thanks for the advice. I really didn't even enter the dating market seriously until I was 38. Before then it was all work and shorter relationships. The $200 wine was the result of an early experience which I have learned from, and believe me, my posture is different these days.

[Dazzel]

Most of my posts are about how women never or rarely takes any initiatives in dating and relationships like calling, setting up dates and that sort of things and how men always have to do all the chasing. That has been proven several times by the women on here. Is it really so hard to understand why this annoys me(and many other men)? Since men always do the pursuing and women most of the time have a more passive and aloof style, it makes it seem like men have more intrest in women than women have in men. I have been proven wrong by women at times by they are exceptions rather than the rule. But do you know what? I like it when I get proven wrong by women who says they take the initiative, that's why I keep posting about this.

 

Here's the thing. I can UNDERSTAND why you feel frustrations if these are the things you have personally been encountering. But it's HOW you phrase these things. Saying stuff like "women are prudes", "all women hate penises", "women don't like sex", "women want men to do that chasing" etc etc etc.....

These are not facts. You just stated there are exceptions but in many of your posts you are saying this like it's a general truth for all women. And you are saying it with a negative attitude in which it sounds as if you are trying to attack women here. If I were to replace the word 'women' with 'men' in all your posts, I don't think you'd like it.

 

Culture has a lot to do with these things to. In some countries (like Japan, for instance....or so I've heard), women are supposed to do the chasing. It's not as common for a male to pursue a female.

Though I may be incorrect about it being in Japan. But I do know gender roles are cultural (and oftentimes stupid, IMO).

 

I will prove you wrong. I've only dated three guys. With the two long-term ones, I was the one who asked them out.

Now maybe the joke I am about to make, makes ME look like the hypocrite, but I call my current (soon to be ex) boyfriend my "princess". He will NOT have sex, he will NOT drive (I'm the chaperone), he will NOT drink, he is TERRIFIED to even TALK about sex.....and he is a prude about things that a normal 26 year old male should not be a prude about. He won't let me see his penis. I'm a 23 year old girl who has asked out (and even been rejected) by guys.

 

Then alot of my posts are about women's lack of sex drive. Which is also true, it's the way it's always been. You should take it as a compliment, atleast I'm not one of those men who constantly hassle women for sex or pressure them to do any of it.

Unlike men, women aren't fertile 24/7 and well into their later years. However, women are definitely more sexual than you think. I believe there is still some bit of a double-standard out there where men are seen as the hornier sex while women are supposed to be hesistant to do it because loving sex makes them slutty. It's definitely gotten better over the years, but some of this attitude remains. My mom cannot understand why in the world I'm horny and feel the need to have sex with my boyfriend.

Likewise, my boyfriend feels the same way. He's fine waiting until marriage, which could be years from now (and truthfully never because I am breaking up with him next time he calls).

So not everything with a penis is a horny devil and not everything with a vagina wants to keep their legs shut.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Dazzel