Thinking engagement one day, breaking up next

[Ms. E]

I am sorry, but if you are going to blunt, than so am I. You are SO wrong. He still tells me that he loves me, and I believe him. He said himself that he just needs some time apart. The reason why he said that sex was wrong, was because of the situation that we are going through. There is no one else, I should know, because his house is mine as well. Both our names are on the mortgage. We had it built together.

 

He has never cheated on me, and as involved as we were, I am 100% that he is not interested in someone else, only 1 week after I moved out. He works all the time, which was an issue in our relationship. He works around 70+ hours a week.

 

If he was trying to push me away, he would not had held me in his arms and cried about the situation, nor would he had come over to my house, he would not keep calling me, he would not had helped me move some of the leftover stuff that was still in our home, he would not had opened the door for me when I come over at 1:00 a.m. in cry to him. He just needs sometime, to possibly figure out what he wants in life, and who he is. He needs time to find out what life really is on his own, with out me. He needs to start taking responsibility for the small things in life like taking out the garbage, cleaning up after himself, doing laundry and just the house hold choirs instead of me doing it all the time. He needs to learn, that my life will revolve with out him. Like I said, we have been together for 7 years. I was 17 when I met him, and he was 19. We have learned a great deal from life as a team. Now it is time to learn a bit apart.

[Monkfish]

I'm not really writing to tell you what to do shop, but more to address Jmargel. I'm being completely serious when i ask who you think you are in the post subject. It's a bit scary to see you throwing out advice when you know so little of the whole picture. It seems to me that you are basing your advice and responses on your personal situations or other familiar situations that fit the context. However, sometimes situations can seem so similar to your own experiences that you feel overly confident in your analysis, while in reality there's just too much you don't to be advising so decisively. It's one thing to offer an opinion or even offer advice. To say 'I think you should do such and such' or 'You might want to consider this' or 'It helped me to think this or do that.' However it's another thing to speak as aggressively in the way you do: 'Do this.' or 'This is this and that means that.' The only thing that cannot be argued in these statements is that the advice you are giving is what YOU feel is appropriate. To me, it seems a bit irresponsible to offer advice in such a way given that you weren't there for the whole relationship, and even though you might have much in common with shopgrl or her situation, you aren't the same person and things aren't necessarily as similar as you might believe. At one point you went so far as to state you could predict what would happen between them. I don't doubt your belief in that, but I question what it's based on. A general overview of relationships of all kinds and dynamics, or just similar situations you know of.

I used to do the same thing a lot, but I am working to control that. Truth is that sometimes we have to go through these things for ourself, in our own ways. Sometimes we have to make a mistake to really understand something everyone else was telling us all along. There's always two sides to every story and we've only heard one. That's not to imply that shop's interpretation of things isn't as honest as she can be from her perspective, it's just that sometimes we can't see the writing on the wall for standing too close. The point being that I don't think it's a good thing to advise in the way you are without ATLEAST hearing both sides. I don't doubt you mean well, but I do think you are over stepping your grounds. It's one thing to be a comforting or encouraging listener, offering advise and observations, but it seems to me you're beyond that. Almost to the point of telling people how to live. Are you really that happy? Do you think you have really figured out the best ways to handle the situations you advise on? Can you be so sure of your own decisions that you can tell others what decisions to make? Personally, I don't know that anyone can be that sure. We all make mistakes after all.

[jmargel]

I've made my share of mistakes in past relationships but shopgrl and me have been conversing by PM as well. So far everything I have said has happened. She is on vacation now but plans to come back here when she returns. I won't go into detail since that is upto her what to post and what not too.

 

As for anyone on here, we are here to give 'advice'. Some people post advice in certain ways. I have my own way. At times I'm very blunt because when you see the same situation over & over again at times you can safely assume that this situation will be no different.

 

One can always hope but I try to make people who ask for advice to see reality. The sooner one sees this, the sooner they can begin their healing process. I've have quite a few people who PM me continue to talk to me about their issues when they no longer post in public. To me that is a sign that my advice does actually work. No, i'm not right 100% of the time but I try to help them understand the bigger picture. My concern is about them, not their SO. They are the ones seeking advice and my advice isn't always something they may want to hear.

 

As for Ms. E, re-read your previous posts on here. You need to give him time like he wants. With you keep pressuring him and trying to make him feel guilty in your own way of course he might let you in his apartment or even tells you he loves you. You also have to understand that his work is a part of his life. Why does he work so much? Do you work and help pay the bills? 70+ hours is quite a bit and a person can only be stretched so far.

 

Anyway, even though I give advice no one is bound to take it. I'm here to try to help others as well as help myself.

[Monkfish]

"At times I'm very blunt because when you see the same situation over & over again at times you can safely assume that this situation will be no different."

 

"One can always hope but I try to make people who ask for advice to see reality. The sooner one sees this, the sooner they can begin their healing process. I've have quite a few people who PM me continue to talk to me about their issues when they no longer post in public. To me that is a sign that my advice does actually work."

 

I think these are clear examples of what I was talking about. You can never safely assume. The definition of an assumption is 'Something taken for granted or accepted as true without proof; a supposition'. So regardless of how many times it seems to have proven itself right in the past, how can you really feel safe in advising based on an assumption? How can you advise what 'reality' is when you have only a limited view of the situation? Sometimes subtleties a person outside of the situation couldn't possibly know can make a world of difference between situations that seem to be more similar than they are. I think it's obvious that not everyone is the same, so why would you think there is one method for healing or assume that you know when it's best for them to move on. I don't think the fact that people message you in private necessarily means your advise is helping as much as it means the person messaging you needs someone to talk to. Sometimes people who might question their own judgment from confusion or even in-securities can gravitate towards a person who seems to possess the knowledge they are looking for. That's not to say you haven't helped anyone. I don't mean to imply that, but I do think you are again assuming something when there are several other possibilities that could also be true.

 

It really bothered me to see that you'd said 'Ms. E, I don't want to sound harsh but I am going to put this bluntly. Your ex no longer wants anything to do with you. ' There was no way to eliminate the many other interpretations of the situation based on what she'd told us. That was a monstrous assumption asserted in a way that could be interpreted as borderline offensive or even slightly domineering. It seemed to me that the situation between her and her ex was much more complicated than you gave it credit for. Another definition for assumption is 'Presumption; arrogance'. Your statement implies you believe you know better than Mrs. E. To me that seems a bit arrogant. It makes me wonder if there is a control issue...

 

I'm really not looking to make an enemy out of you or engage in a battle of wits through a message board. Although I don't agree with some of your observations or methods, I don't doubt that you are trying to help people. I guess the reason I am writing this message is that it worries me when someone comes along speaking and advising so definitively, especially when it comes to things as complicated as a deeply personal relationship. I know in that past I have caused a lot more harm than good doing what it seems like you are doing now. I have also been the victim of bad advise from someone who honestly thought they knew more than they did. I'm honestly just voicing my thoughts because as I said before, there is always more than one side to any story, no matter how familiar the tale seems. Sometimes a forceful speaker can make us forget that.

[jmargel]

I give advice on what has been presented to me. Everyone here who gives advice is not 'in' the situation nor do they really know 100% of it. There are two sides to every story. One can only give the best advice on the information given to them.

 

Ms. E posted this:

Then yesturday, I kept taxt messaging him. Telling him how much I missed him, and explaining to him how much I need him, and how much I love hime, and how I want to move back in with him and hold him at night when we go to bed. Of course, no response. I had to work last night. After work, we all went out and had some drinks. I had a few to many, I left the restaurant and went to see him. This was around 1:00 in the morning. He did open the door and let me in. He was griping asking why I was there, saying I am trying to sleep and your not keeping me up again tonight. Go home, is all he kept saying. I asked if he got my messages, he said no, but I did look at his phone and he had gotten them. I put my arm around him, and he shoved me away. I asked him if we were still going to go to dinner, he said NO!! I laid there, he tossed and turned. Never to once touch me like he use too. After I laid there and sobbered up a bit, I realized, that everytime that I came over or spoke to him. He was always being mean to me. Even before I moved out, he gave me the cold sholder and made mean comments. Not saying I was innocent, because I said things in return directed towards him.

 

He had made it clear that he doesn't want anything to do with her. What I suggested was she needed to move on and start helping herself. Not to base your self-worth on the love of another. I am not saying that she is at fault on the reason why he's acting like this. He probably has alot of issues he needs to deal with by himself.

 

When a relationship is ending, IMO the worst thing a partner who got dumped on can do is to 'bother' the other person. This just re-enforces the dumper on why they made that decision. When the dumper sees and knows the dumpee can move on and enjoy life, then it becomes an attraction to the dumper. They then start questioning themselves on why did they really do this? Was is just my wrong interpretation of the dumpee? Was it me (the dumper) really holding them back from letting them shine like this?

 

In Ms. E's situation there is alot of lack of or mis-communication. A power struggle has started. The best way to stop the spiral is to let things cool off. My advice was that she needed to get this into her head fast before anymore damage was done. This is why I was so blunt.

 

I'm not looking for arguements either. You have every right to your opinion. The people who PM me though are just not looking for someone to talk to. There are lots of people on here to give advice. The ones that PM me can see that I will help them steer in the right direction and they just want more confidence and reassurance. It's a bold step in taking some of the advice I give, but it has worked out. Ask shopgrl when she returns. The situation that once was in her ex's hand is now in hers. She has the 'upper' hand now. It's upto her to make the decisions. She is now not the victim of a bad relationship who's feelings haven't been heard.

[Ms. E]

OK guys, just for the record, monkfish, I am 100% behind you on this one. Jmagel, you just quoted a portion of my thread. Not the entire story. Sorry, but it does not work that way.

 

Also, for the record, he is no longer my ex. We are back together, and working on our problems.

 

Also, for the record jmagel, I was not dumped. He told me that he was not going to marry me, which was suppose to happen in exactly one month from today. We lived together. We had lived together for the past 6 1/2 years. We have a mortgage together. It was my choice to move out and get an apartment. I needed my space, and I understood that he needed his. I just had a hard time understanding. This is the first time anything like that has happened to me, and I didn't understand. And well, now I do. He was being very unreasonable with how he was dealing with the break-up, and I was not going to sit in that house with him and have to listen to his childish, petty remarks.

 

About the portion of my thread that you quoted. I stopped all that, and he come running to me now. Showing up on my doorstep. And it feels good for a change.

 

People act certain ways, because of the way they were raised, and the enviroment that they are use too. Just because one person has different beleifs and ways about them, does not mean that they are wrong. It may be the way that they were taught. You can not blame them for that. Everyone has their own way of dealing with things. Again, just because someone deals with a situtation in a different way, does not make them wrong.

[Monkfish]

This is really all I have left to say about this. You are not making assumptions based on the information presented to you. You are making assumptions based on your interpretation and perspectives of that information. This is all anyone can do. It may seem an obvious statement, but forgetting that can be dangerous to ourselves, our egos, and in this case, possibly even another person. Our interpretations are often jaded by our own experiences and bias. Just because you believe your interpretation is the only one doesn't mean it is. i don't think that just because Mrs. E's ex was avoiding her for a period of time indicates in anyway that he did not want anything to do with her. Perhaps he was confused and only wanted space and time to think rather than wanting to cut her out completely. Perhaps the facts that he let her in, slept with her, offered her food, didn't file for a restraining order are all indicators of this.

 

As for the rest of the message, you really might want to consider the possibility that you have a control issue. So much of what you said indicated methods to control another persons responses:

 

 

When the dumper sees and knows the dumpee can move on and enjoy life, then it becomes an attraction to the dumper. They then start questioning themselves on why did they really do this? Was is just my wrong interpretation of the dumpee? Was it me (the dumper) really holding them back from letting them shine like this?

 

If a person has actually moved on, why would they care if the 'dumper' regrets their decision? Personally I wouldn't want to make someone I cared about question them self in that way (even if they had dumped me). Often giving the dumper space or reacting in an unexpected way does cause the dumper to question their decision as you mentioned, but I would never want that to be a motivator for my own actions.

 

 

The ones that PM me can see that I will help them steer in the right direction and they just want more confidence and reassurance.

 

How can you know what the right direction is for an individual? Do you really believe that you can make such a decision based on such limited information? Also just because someone follows another's advise doesn't mean the person offering advise was qualified to do so. If they knew the right direction well enough to know that you were steering them towards it, why would they need you to steer?

 

The situation that once was in her ex's hand is now in hers. She has the 'upper' hand now. It's upto her to make the decisions.

 

The situation was always in her hands, she just wasn't sure what to do with it. I also think referring to it as having an upper hand encourages a combative view of things and seems to indicates a control issue again. It's one thing to take control of your life as an independent unity, but it sounds like you feel a need to compare the two sides in order to reaffirm the ego or check that you are not in danger of losing control. That would basically amount to a reliance on someone else for your own sense of self. This doesn't seem healthy to me. However this is of course only my interpretation. I could of course be wrong, but then again I might be right. That said I am now bowing out of this chain. I don't really have anymore to say without repeating myself and I figure if anyone wants anymore of my interpretations or opinions, they'll PM me.

[jmargel]

Ms. E then my advice was correct. Not bothering him gave him the chance to see what he was really missing out on. He came TO YOU.

 

I train animals quite a bit, and one way to make your dog stay with you without a leash is to do the following. Have someone hold the dog back while you run away & call it's name. The dog will struggle trying to get to you. Finally the holder lets the dog go. As the dog runs towards you, you keep running away. SO, instead of you having to chase the dog, the dog is actually chasing you!

 

This is true in a relationship that has gotten into a rut and where one is thinking of leaving. As long as you continue to chase that dog (ie. your mate) that dog will run fast & far from you as it can. Running the other direction however will get the dog to 'sometimes' stop (its not 100% guarantee, but either is anything in life) that the dog (ie. mate) will stop what it's doing, think.. and possible run towards you.

 

Monkfish for someone who isn't suppose to 'assume' things, you jump right off the bat that I have control issues?

 

If a person has actually moved on, why would they care if the 'dumper' regrets their decision? Personally I wouldn't want to make someone I cared about question them self in that way (even if they had dumped me). Often giving the dumper space or reacting in an unexpected way does cause the dumper to question their decision as you mentioned, but I would never want that to be a motivator for my own actions.

 

It's not about what is the motivator. Its about the bigger picture. Sometimes in life things happen which makes you wake up to realize alot about yourself, family, friends, etc.. Such as my brother having cancer. That woke me up to alot of things, especially not taking for granted that my family will always be there.

 

 

How can you know what the right direction is for an individual? Do you really believe that you can make such a decision based on such limited information? Also just because someone follows another's advise doesn't mean the person offering advise was qualified to do so. If they knew the right direction well enough to know that you were steering them towards it, why would they need you to steer?

 

I never claimed to be a licensed psychologist, neither has anyone else here. People come here for advice knowing full well that we are just common folks who had similiar experiences. Usually going through a situation yourself such as I, you learn so much more than by just reading out of a textbook. They are free to choose what advice to & not to follow.

 

The situation was always in her hands, she just wasn't sure what to do with it. I also think referring to it as having an upper hand encourages a combative view of things and seems to indicates a control issue again. It's one thing to take control of your life as an independent unity, but it sounds like you feel a need to compare the two sides in order to reaffirm the ego or check that you are not in danger of losing control. That would basically amount to a reliance on someone else for your own sense of self. This doesn't seem healthy to me. However this is of course only my interpretation. I could of course be wrong, but then again I might be right. That said I am now bowing out of this chain. I don't really have anymore to say without repeating myself and I figure if anyone wants anymore of my interpretations or opinions, they'll PM me.

 

Not true. I won't go into her situation since she isn't here right now. Read her story and see how he was comfortable in the situation he was in, but didn't want to make the full commitment. There are other issues with this that weren't discussed in public, that was privately with me. And it's not about a control issue or a power struggle. When a relationship gets into that kinda mode, it's basically over. I was referring to the upper hand with her that now *she* can make the decision on what to do. Whether she wants him back or not. And if she does want him back on whether he is now willing to confront and deal with his issues that he was previously ignoring.

 

Maybe your advice would for Ms. E to continue to contact him, write letters, call, etc.. But then I could almost guarantee you that he would be pulling away even more. I'm glad those two are starting to work on their problems together. Make sure you continue to really get to the root of it all. Otherwise problems will just spring back up again.

 

Like I said before my advice is blunt and I direct it towards the poster. They are free to choose to take it or not. But to try to 'tell' me what type advice or how I should give it is just wrong. Perhaps monkfish you may have the control issues.

[Ms. E]

I have to say that because of jmagel, I am very sorry that I even came to this site for help. You have done nothing but dog me, put me down, blame people, argue with people, think that you are "GOD" (and trust me, you are far from it), and hurt peoples feels. For those people that actually took your advice, more than likely most of them are out of a loved one now. And they probably now regret taking your advice. I know I would have.

 

No, you were not right!! I was still "bothering him", (as you said), he just had time to think things through on his own. He admitted to himself that he did love me, and that we can work on things together. You need to get your story start before posting.

 

Also, I do not appreciate being compared to a dog, and my fiancee doesn't either. You need to choose your words/examples a bit more wisely.

 

Now, it is my turn to tell you some advice. Get out in the real world buddy, and experience life for yourself and stop trying to be in everyone else life. Experience some of the problems that people are having for themselves on here, and then take some of your own advice and just dump them after 5 or so years. You have no idea what state of mind a lot of these people are in when you come off so "blunt" you say, I would say "rude"!! A lot of these people are very vulnerable, and just because you say all you do is "offer your advice", with them being so hard up for someone to listen to them and talk to them, they probably probably are depending on you for support. Which takes us right back to the beginning, you have no knowledge of what they are experiencing, so why offer advice, when you have no experience. You are so not needed, and or not wanted on this board.

 

Oh yeah, one more thing, "I never claimed to be a licensed psychologist"!

[jmargel]

Hmm, so you kept bothering him. Wow, so you pressured him back into a situation. That is not love nor understanding. You really comfortable being back in a relationship under this pretense? It hard for a relationship to last on a foundation such as that. I can see you have temper issues as well.

 

By the way I never referred to you nor him as a 'dog'. Your intent is clear that you have to try to 'win' a case against me, for which there is none. Why did you even post here if you didn't wany anyone else's advice? Possibily you are just here to expect other to say what you want to hear. When you don't get that, then you clearly get upset.

 

As for situations that 'I' wasn't in. For your information, I was enaged before. I was with her for 4.5 years. During that time I suffered through verbal, emotional, mental and sometimes physical abuse. It ended with her leaving for my ex best friend of 15 years. I went through 3 years of soul searching before I was healed. You assume that I just get on here to preach without going through a similiar situation. Far from the truth.

 

No one is telling you to post here or not to. Again that is your choice. I have not belittled you nor put you down. It sounds like you may need some maturing to do. Unless you are a moderator on this site then it's best not to go around telling people that they are not 'wanted' or 'needed' and should refrain from posting on this site. Good chance you might get banned from here.

[Ms. E]

OK, enough is enough. I am not arguing with you about my relationship. Once again, you did not understand my post. It is odd that I am not the only one on here tell you to STOP GIVING ADVICE!!!

 

End of story!!! I have better things to do!!

[jmargel]

Sorry but coming from someone who's emotionally unstable right now the things you said I will let pass. If you have better things to do then please.. Go do them & stop the harassment.

 

Thanks.

[sumdude]

As for situations that 'I' wasn't in. For your information, I was enaged before. I was with her for 4.5 years. During that time I suffered through verbal, emotional, mental and sometimes physical abuse. It ended with her leaving for my ex best friend of 15 years. I went through 3 years of soul searching before I was healed. You assume that I just get on here to preach without going through a similiar situation. Far from the truth.

 

From where I sit and read this colors all of your assumptions and how you see others. Do not assume that everyone goes through the same 'stages' as you did. You are being awfully forceful and then extremely defensive when countered. Really man, take a step back. Please.

[Monkfish]

I feel bad for you jmargel, but more than that I feel bad for anyone who thinks you really know what you are talking about. You talk about training dogs and compare it to a relationship. If you think training a dog and having a healthy relationship are at all related, you obviously have no idea what a relationship is meant to be about. You don't train each other to become what you want, you find someone who is what you are looking for in the first place. Training a dog is a series of manipulations, used to assert your control over an animal. A major difference between people and animals is that we have the ability for self awareness and complex reasoning. I think more than anything, you've concreted my observation that you likely have control issues and to be honest, it makes me a little sick.

 

Your sarcastic and condescending tone resonates through all your posts, but multiples itself in the posts in which you feel challenged. Everything I've seen seems to indicate you have some serious issues. I'd be surprised if you didn't have a quite a temper with a tendency towards verbal abuse. I'd also be willing to bet that while you are very intelligent, you also have some ego issues and view yourself as disproportionately smarter than the average person. I think perhaps the real reason you look to advise people here is to feel a sense of validation for your thought processes. I doubt your own life is as controlled as you would want it to be. I wonder if you are actually fulfilled in your own world, or if advising others here also acts as a distraction from your own problems in life. A rhetorical question: Are you really who you want to be or who you thought you'd be at this point in your life? Do you really think you are fulfilling your own potential or even achieving your own goals? Again it's rhetorical. Just something to think about, although I'm sure you won't give it a moment's thought before dismissing the thought or issuing a rebuttal. Bottom line, I don't think you are the one to be giving advise and I think there more than a few who've read your posts and would agree.

[virginia70065]

No one pretends to be a psychologist around here. Don't post a huge novel about your situation, and not expect some comment about it. You know the old, tired saying:

 

[color=red]"If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."[/color]

[jmargel]

I agree Virginia.

 

Monkfish you are taking what I said about training animals and putting it on how I view relationships. Apparently you haven't read my post close enough. You take one portion about a relationship that is about ending, and make it seem like I view relationships as controlling & manuipliating the other. Far from it. I take your post not as 'constructive' critizism, but a post to just try to put me in a bad light. Sugarcoat it all you want, but you seem to be acting like a psychologist and 'analyzing' me. Thanks, but no thanks. If I'm a nut or have serious mental problems, then I would prefer someone with a PhD to tell me that. But I appreciate your concern.

 

Even when relationship on the whole are going good, some relationships need a challenge based on who is involved. Everybody is different. Some people need constant love & showing of affection, others don't. Others thrive on wanting the other person in their life. That was the case with me. I was showing my fiancee too much affection & it was a huge turn off. Talking to my councilor she told me to try the opposite, don't hug, kiss or be affectionate. In two days my fiancee was giving me what I was lacking. Me pouring on more affection, hoping to get it back from her was making her do the opposite. Doing this isn't a game but shows the other person what they could be/are missing.

 

Through my own experience and LOTS of reading / research on relationship issues, this is where my opinions come from. If you don't care for it, you don't have to take it. It's that simple. Apparently from your post you seem to have to 'speak up' and tell me 'how it is'. Perhaps you need to take a good look at yourself. Oh, and by the way, don't feel 'bad' for me. My life is doing pretty good thanks