hoping2heal Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I thought I would just make a chart explaining the difference since there are repeated wrong descriptions of both. So, there actually three main personality types of guys (or women, for that matter). They are : "Good guy", "Bad Guy", and "Doormat" Good guy : Integrity, sincerity, empathy, compassion, Bad guy : often non genuine, constantly manipulative, often but not always dishonest, little empathy, self serving. Note: A man or woman who tries to control their partner is abusive, which is something entirely different than being a scum bag in general. Doormat: non genuine, potentially manipulative though mostly unintentionally, empathy, compassion, often will try to "buy" affection with gifts, constant agreement, etc , unsure of personal identity Now, I hope we have cleared that up and we all know what a nice guy and what a nice guy is not. Nice guys? Awesome. Doormat? Puke Bad Guy? You're not mating with me sunshine. Let me say this very clearly. If there is a lady in your life that you are into, and you have been a nice guy as defined, and she gets with a "bad boy" as defined, then there are one of two things that took place 1.) She does not know how to function in healthy relationships and therefore as a fairly well adjusted person you are a turn off or 2.) She isn't attracted to you physically, and well if she actually gets with a bad boy, she is more often than not young and therefore mentally and/or emotionally immature yet. However, I have known women in their 40's and 50's who are still quite immature mentally and emotionally. That's it, it is as simple as that. In most cases though the damn woman just wasn't physically attracted. Unless there has been some emotional or mental disturbance no woman wants to date someone who is going to bring more pain and stress into her life than he is good feelings and security. C'mon!!
dreamingoftigers Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 I agree with this and see why some of the more 'firey' posters didn't respond.
Surrealist Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 It's kinda funny, given that it is often described in the context of gender, but the exact reverse happens very often as well. For me personally, I haven't been with anyone intimately for years, but there's no way I would lower my standards to some hideously overweight, unkept, poor hygienic woman.
catgotyourtongue Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Hmmm Not sure what my response to this is or what the actual point is? I am not being mean, believe me, I simply just did not quite understand the points. I am not sure I agree but I don't know the meanings here, so it's hard to have a voice. By nature, I am more gray than putting people into just three categories. They are "bad boys" per se, that are bad to date to some, and fun for others who like bad boys. I am NOT into bad boys, I am too old to f* with that and it's not my bag. There are good guys who do bonehead things and can be a**holes at times. Does that turn them into a bad guy; not sure. May or may not. Some people have "bad actions" that lead to people think these people are BAD people. Sometimes that is true, and sometimes it is not. I am a good person who has done some bad, or ugly, or unfavorable things, I am still a good person. I feel BAD and like a BAD person when I do them, and punish myself accordingly, lol, ponder, learn and grow and try to not do those things again, sometimes with success. I think there are more types and varieties of men than just these listed. I just ended a relationship with a basically "good guy" with some major bonehead freak outs, issues and poor behavior, scary. I still "believe" and know in my heart, he is a good guy...in spite of also being an a** at times. His behavior was astonishgly poor at times, yet his heart is kind and is a nice guy, jaded as hell from past abusive relationships and STUFF. I think that there are many "bad guys" that can turn into "good guys" because the "bad guy" MIGHT stem from being young (20), naive, thinking it's cool to be bad, or a f* up home etc. and he has yet to grow into his own skin. Certainly if that "bad boy" is 35 or 40 then he probably is what he is, and may not change. I like to think that most people are inherintly good -(but have been so bruised and twisted from life they got jaded) or they are unwilling to look at self, stop hurting others and get out of their own way. I dont know too many TRULY BAD people, TRULY bad. I know some freaks, and people I think are selfish and arrogant or mean, (several) but I don't know if I feel that makes them BAD. I just think the labels as bad, good or doormat are too narrow, that's all. I thought I would just make a chart explaining the difference since there are repeated wrong descriptions of both. So, there actually three main personality types of guys (or women, for that matter). They are : "Good guy", "Bad Guy", and "Doormat" Good guy : Integrity, sincerity, empathy, compassion, Bad guy : often non genuine, constantly manipulative, often but not always dishonest, little empathy, self serving. Note: A man or woman who tries to control their partner is abusive, which is something entirely different than being a scum bag in general. Doormat: non genuine, potentially manipulative though mostly unintentionally, empathy, compassion, often will try to "buy" affection with gifts, constant agreement, etc , unsure of personal identity Now, I hope we have cleared that up and we all know what a nice guy and what a nice guy is not. Nice guys? Awesome. Doormat? Puke Bad Guy? You're not mating with me sunshine.
zengirl Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Also, if someone else breaking your heart can make you "not nice" anymore, you were never "nice" to begin with. Not truly. Truly good people are people who've decided to be good, nice, and act with integrity despite the pain in the world.
Yer_Blues Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Also, if someone else breaking your heart can make you "not nice" anymore, you were never "nice" to begin with. Not truly. Truly good people are people who've decided to be good, nice, and act with integrity despite the pain in the world. This is one of the concepts I'm learning and starting to live now. It's really powerful when you don't let external circumstances define your behavior. It's really tragic when a person feels entitled to their negative emotions and act however they want simply with those negative emotions as justification. I have caused a lot of suffering for myself and others by allowing my emotions to rule over me, and I don't think that someone who is really wise or loving feels justified when this happens.
denise_xo Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Also, if someone else breaking your heart can make you "not nice" anymore, you were never "nice" to begin with. Not truly. Truly good people are people who've decided to be good, nice, and act with integrity despite the pain in the world. This is one of the concepts I'm learning and starting to live now. It's really powerful when you don't let external circumstances define your behavior. It's really tragic when a person feels entitled to their negative emotions and act however they want simply with those negative emotions as justification. I have caused a lot of suffering for myself and others by allowing my emotions to rule over me, and I don't think that someone who is really wise or loving feels justified when this happens. These posts are spot on. I identify with the bit in bold.
catgotyourtongue Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 I COULD not AGREE with this more. BIG TIME! I completely came to this same realization about myself a long time ago, but very much so the last few years. I do this, and others do this. That is a big goal of mine, to work on that behavior/emotions, and it is also my biggest struggle, one of them, in relationships as other people are doing this as well too often to me, and others, etc. This is one of the concepts I'm learning and starting to live now. It's really powerful when you don't let external circumstances define your behavior. It's really tragic when a person feels entitled to their negative emotions and act however they want simply with those negative emotions as justification. I have caused a lot of suffering for myself and others by allowing my emotions to rule over me, and I don't think that someone who is really wise or loving feels justified when this happens.
GoodOnPaper Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Also, if someone else breaking your heart can make you "not nice" anymore, you were never "nice" to begin with. Not truly. Truly good people are people who've decided to be good, nice, and act with integrity despite the pain in the world. Except that this isn't about who you are and how you act -- it's about how well you attract and hold on to attraction. It's very frustrating when there seems to be a complete disconnect between doing the "right" things that lead to success in most areas of life and what you have to be in order to attract women.
hydorclops Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Except that this isn't about who you are and how you act -- it's about how well you attract and hold on to attraction. It's very frustrating when there seems to be a complete disconnect between doing the "right" things that lead to success in most areas of life and what you have to be in order to attract women. Having integrity is its own reward. Finding love is unrelated. People do both all the time.
carhill Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 In most cases though the damn woman just wasn't physically attracted. Acceptance of this one parameter is primary. Likely the whole dynamic could be boiled down to this one sentence and its corollary, that none of the 'nice guy/bad guy' stuff matters if she *is* physically attracted. Simple life lesson. Painfully simple IME.
Keridan Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Now, I hope we have cleared that up and we all know what a nice guy and what a nice guy is not. Nice guys? Awesome. Doormat? Puke Bad Guy? You're not mating with me sunshine. Off topic: Donna rocks
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Also, if someone else breaking your heart can make you "not nice" anymore, you were never "nice" to begin with. Not truly. Truly good people are people who've decided to be good, nice, and act with integrity despite the pain in the world. Technically I agree with you, but only because nobody can physically reach into your brain and alter it this way. I believe in context you are way off though. It would be like me trying to argue that being raped doesn't cause mental trauma. Fact is that how others treat us greatly impacts not only how we feel about ourselves, but also how we react in similar situations down the road.
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Good guy : Integrity, sincerity, empathy, compassion, That's it? Bad guy : often non genuine, constantly manipulative, often but not always dishonest, little empathy, self serving. Note: A man or woman who tries to control their partner is abusive, which is something entirely different than being a scum bag in general. There are varying degrees of controlling. Highly controlling people tend to be abusers. Abusive guys are just 1 category of bad boy. Doormat: non genuine, potentially manipulative though mostly unintentionally, empathy, compassion, often will try to "buy" affection with gifts, constant agreement, etc , unsure of personal identity I know some guys who are just really laid back that fit most of this description. Does that make them doormats? Let me say this very clearly. If there is a lady in your life that you are into, and you have been a nice guy as defined, and she gets with a "bad boy" as defined, then there are one of two things that took place 1.) She does not know how to function in healthy relationships and therefore as a fairly well adjusted person you are a turn off or 2.) She isn't attracted to you physically, n not young and therefore mentally and/or emotionally immature yet.and well if she actually gets with a bad boy, she is more often tha However, I have known women in their 40's and 50's who are still quite immature mentally and emotionally. The best thing about this pickup artist trend is that it has been teaching traditionally nice guys to be Aholes to women like this. I'm consistently shocked at how effective it can be in some situations.
zengirl Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Except that this isn't about who you are and how you act -- it's about how well you attract and hold on to attraction. It's very frustrating when there seems to be a complete disconnect between doing the "right" things that lead to success in most areas of life and what you have to be in order to attract women. Being a jerk doesn't attract good women. Nor does being kind repel them. Nor does "success" matter more than integrity to someone who is truly kind and interested in being good. But those are two very different points, and the latter one is more interesting to me than the first one, which was the OP's main point, and she stated it much more in depth. Technically I agree with you, but only because nobody can physically reach into your brain and alter it this way. I believe in context you are way off though. It would be like me trying to argue that being raped doesn't cause mental trauma. Fact is that how others treat us greatly impacts not only how we feel about ourselves, but also how we react in similar situations down the road. Of course, being raped causes mental trauma. But it doesn't cause you to be a jerk to other people. If a woman becomes a serial killer because she was raped, she's not a good person. She might be too mentally ill to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, depending on the case, but she's not "good" and who would say she was? There are so many cases and stories of people being victimized and learning to not only live good lives but forgive their aggressors (to be clear, this is not the same as saying the aggression was okay, or letting anyone get away with illegal acts, like rape, etc). And having your heart broken is nothing akin to being raped. Especially in most cases. Being cheated on and being raped. . . they cannot really be compared. Though I can agree that the wounds from a relationship are traumatic in some cases. In most cases, they're normal trauma that the human brain should be able to cope with more readily than say, rape or your family being brutally murdered in front of you, or anything of an extreme nature. Now, when there is physical or sexual abuse, especially in a relationship, I think more extreme measures (like counseling, etc) are needed to get yourself "well" again, and no one would disagree. That doesn't mean the solution is to treat any other human being like crap. No so-called "good" person would think so.
Woggle Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Technically I agree with you, but only because nobody can physically reach into your brain and alter it this way. I believe in context you are way off though. It would be like me trying to argue that being raped doesn't cause mental trauma. Fact is that how others treat us greatly impacts not only how we feel about ourselves, but also how we react in similar situations down the road. This is true. People tend to do what works and what produces the best results especially men. We tend to be results oriented people who want to get from point A to point B and do the things that will get us there. When we see how being a jerk gets you so much more success with women and gets you much less heartbreak can you blame men for going down that road? I saw you mention in another post that nice guys who turn into jerks tend to do better with women almost overnight and I have noticed that as well.
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Of course, being raped causes mental trauma. But it doesn't cause you to be a jerk to other people. If a woman becomes a serial killer because she was raped, she's not a good person. She might be too mentally ill to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, depending on the case, but she's not "good" and who would say she was? There are so many cases and stories of people being victimized and learning to not only live good lives but forgive their aggressors (to be clear, this is not the same as saying the aggression was okay, or letting anyone get away with illegal acts, like rape, etc). And having your heart broken is nothing akin to being raped. Especially in most cases. Being cheated on and being raped. . . they cannot really be compared. Though I can agree that the wounds from a relationship are traumatic in some cases. In most cases, they're normal trauma that the human brain should be able to cope with more readily than say, rape or your family being brutally murdered in front of you, or anything of an extreme nature. Now, when there is physical or sexual abuse, especially in a relationship, I think more extreme measures (like counseling, etc) are needed to get yourself "well" again, and no one would disagree. That doesn't mean the solution is to treat any other human being like crap. No so-called "good" person would think so. No, we learn from our experiences. It's natural and difficult to control. We do mostly learn to treat others from how others treat us. Not learning from bad experiences is a sign of stupidity... not that of being a good person. I know you have a specific scenario in your head... but that is someone with overall good experiences who has one or two bad ones, and is able to healthily take minor lessons from it and move on. I don't think that is common.
dreamingoftigers Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Technically I agree with you, but only because nobody can physically reach into your brain and alter it this way. I believe in context you are way off though. It would be like me trying to argue that being raped doesn't cause mental trauma. Fact is that how others treat us greatly impacts not only how we feel about ourselves, but also how we react in similar situations down the road. Trauma that occurs in adulthood shouldn't be able to change us from being kind or nice people into uncaring, vicious people if we are centered. Trauma in adulthood can be looked at in context, as in: it has been caused by someone else's baggage.
Woggle Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 It's not just trauma. If we find that being nice just gets us heartbreak and grief are we so wrong if we start doing what works?
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 Trauma that occurs in adulthood shouldn't be able to change us from being kind or nice people into uncaring, vicious people if we are centered. Trauma in adulthood can be looked at in context, as in: it has been caused by someone else's baggage. That depends on the amount of trauma, and your pre-existing ability to deal with it. I'm sorry but the premise that if a guy is cynical, and acts like a jerk... that he is somehow just born to be that way is ridiculous. It's not just trauma. If we find that being nice just gets us heartbreak and grief are we so wrong if we start doing what works? Yes! I remember learning this vividly during highschool. When you are a young guy the whole thing is just a mystery. When you see one thing that works for other guys you copy it. It takes time and effort to unlearn those bad behaviors and replace them with healthy ones that work. I don't think it's worth the effort for many guys, because many poor behaviors will actually serve them well long term.
dispatch3d Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 I guess this post is for women or something? It's not in any way helpful to me in "getting" a girl. Any guy who doesn't describe himself as the "nice guy" you defined is kind of loony. There are definitely different ways to kill a cat, I just don't feel like anythings outlined here. Anyways, I guess this is me hating on you. Sorry about that.
dispatch3d Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 UF, on one hand I agree with zengirl. Being a happy+positive person HAS TO be completely independant of all events that you experience. Otherwise the particular person will ride a see-saw dependant on where they are happiness and success-wise. A person would have to become very successful to be very happy if they didn't break free of the pattern. /buddhism On the other hand, talking about rape and negative experiences and then equating "rape" to relationship turmoil things is a giant logical leap.
Yer_Blues Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 The idea that you can separate approaches into ones that "work" and "don't work" is simplistic and useless to consider. The idea that being a self centered ******* is a logical response to the world is a way to justify being self centered and cynical. I can be cynical too, I'm real good at it. I've been treated like **** most of my life, and I've not learned to treat others this way. Reinforcement is not the only determinant of behavior. We are not lab rats.
zengirl Posted January 3, 2011 Posted January 3, 2011 No, we learn from our experiences. It's natural and difficult to control. We do mostly learn to treat others from how others treat us. Not learning from bad experiences is a sign of stupidity... not that of being a good person. I know you have a specific scenario in your head... but that is someone with overall good experiences who has one or two bad ones, and is able to healthily take minor lessons from it and move on. I don't think that is common. I don't disagree with learning from experience. I do disagree with using bad actions to feel better or get "better" results. Really, bad deeds cannot bring truly good results. And those who insist they can will always be fundamentally unhappy in some way. Honestly, being good IS its own reward, just like being happy is its own reward. I'm not saying anyone should lack self-respect or let others mistreat them. Sure, turn the other cheek occasionally, but most of the time, just learn to stay away from toxic people. A surefire way to keep yourself near toxic people and toxic situations is to do bad and toxic things yourself. Just because conditioning 'happens' doesn't make it the good or right thing to do. We are capable of being creatures of integrity and worth, or capable of heeding our baser instincts, or vast wealths in between. But nobody can call themselves "Good" and then knowingly do bad, and no bad experiences --- whether they're as piddly as rejection or as massive as rape and torture --- turn someone into a person who will knowingly inflict pain upon others or be careless with others. It's a choice. Now, some people have an easier time -- an easier life, and it's easy for them to be happy. I get that. But that doesn't mean that everyone doesn't have the power to choose to take the high road.
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