EricaH329 Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 In my personal opinion, I hold the men I date to the same standard I hold myself to. For example: I would be extremely turned off by a guy who shows extreme emotion in an inappropriate place/time. If I were on a date, and he lashes out in anger causing the entire restaurant to turn their heads... massive turn off. Or, if he bursts out in tears, enough to cause a scene, again... massive turn off. I believe there is an appropriate time and place for emotions. That said, in an appropriate time/place, I find vulnerability extremely endearing. It shows that they are human. If I were to date a man without any emotions (or none to my knowledge), well... that just wouldn't happen. I'd begin to think that there may be more psychological issues at play.
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 I apologize about some of the generalizations I made about the opposite sex in this thread. I just think about this stuff and it ticks me off. I feel that loosening gender roles and equality is a two way street.
Surrealist Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I've actually known a couple of men who I personally never witnessed crying or being emotional. They're dead now. They committed suicide. I've also known a couple of men who were hard and had little to no empathy for other peoples problems. One of them is now a basket case wallowing in major clinical depression. Go figure.
Jannah Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I apologize about some of the generalizations I made about the opposite sex in this thread. I just think about this stuff and it ticks me off. I feel that loosening gender roles and equality is a two way street. Every time you make a generalization, think of the source that it comes from.... Your Mother and Your Ex, neither of which were good role models. I know it's hard to differentiate between what you were accustomed to and what you witness in real life, and there is nothing wrong with being ticked off by it. Try to just separate yourself from that mindset, and focus on the "loosening gender roles and equality is a two way street" mantra. I know it's difficult, it's difficult for everyone - male and female.
Stung Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 From what I have seen in life and read on LS recently it is practically a deal breaker for a man to show any sort of emotional weakness during the dating phase of a relationship. Women fall in love with the IMAGE a man puts out not the man himself. Having said that by the time one is married I believe you need to be comfortable enough and trust your partner enough to bring in the human element. Woogle, from what you have said about your wife she sounds like a true companion. Slowly, very slowly show your wife the more vulnerable sides. You may be very surprised at how very supportive she is. There is something to this, IMO. In very early dating stages, it is usually a mistake for a man to exhibit a high degree of insecurity/awkwardness, just as it is a mistake for a woman to come off as overtly jealous or needy. Displays of weakness are magnified by the very nature of the early dating process, which is all about first impressions. Once a relationship has bloomed, a couple should be able to show each other their vulnerabilities and metaphorical 'warts' in an atmosphere of support, or there can be no true partnership. In early dating stages when we still know nothing about each other and the passion switches have not yet been turned on, I think if my date came across as helpless or needy my maternal impulses would get triggered-- not the result most men are looking for in the dating scene. Any woman who would denigrate a man for crying at a funeral is a woman who needs serious therapy.
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 Every time you make a generalization, think of the source that it comes from.... Your Mother and Your Ex, neither of which were good role models. I know it's hard to differentiate between what you were accustomed to and what you witness in real life, and there is nothing wrong with being ticked off by it. Try to just separate yourself from that mindset, and focus on the "loosening gender roles and equality is a two way street" mantra. I know it's difficult, it's difficult for everyone - male and female. This is true. I happened to come across a picture of him while looking through some old albums and it brought back that bitterness. I am starting to come to the realization that I am a very angry person.
Titania22 Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I was just thinking about my parents in relation to vunerability. They are quite old now and my dad had a stroke about 5yrs ago, and since then all his percieved walls of strength started to come down, and over time all these emotions are surfacing, from a lifetime of suppression. It's kind of weird, because he could be crying his eyes out or having a fit of anger and 5minutes later laughing. It's a bit like how small children how just forget what upset them and then let go of the emotion without a second thought. I am sure my mum finds this hard, especially since he rarely cried whilst i was growing up. And they are from an earlier generation.
Surrealist Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I was just thinking about my parents in relation to vunerability. They are quite old now and my dad had a stroke about 5yrs ago, and since then all his percieved walls of strength started to come down, and over time all these emotions are surfacing, from a lifetime of suppression. It's kind of weird, because he could be crying his eyes out or having a fit of anger and 5minutes later laughing. It's a bit like how small children how just forget what upset them and then let go of the emotion without a second thought. I am sure my mum finds this hard, especially since he rarely cried whilst i was growing up. And they are from an earlier generation. The person I spoke about in my earlier post who used to be stone cold and sans empathy or compassion of any kind to anyone, is my ex wife's father. He is now a depressed recluse, and though he has somewhat recoved a bit from his really bad depression some 5 to 6 years ago, he remains wallowing in his pity party. Im a pretty empathetic person myself, but I dont feel an ounce of pity toward this man. I think its a type of karma.
Titania22 Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 The person I spoke about in my earlier post who used to be stone cold and sans empathy or compassion of any kind to anyone, is my ex wife's father. He is now a depressed recluse, and though he has somewhat recoved a bit from his really bad depression some 5 to 6 years ago, he remains wallowing in his pity party. Im a pretty empathetic person myself, but I dont feel an ounce of pity toward this man. I think its a type of karma. It surely is. My dad was taught that to be a man, you just suppress everything and get on with the job, but I don't think he has ever understood that if you go through life like that, you tend to be very judgemental, authoritative and uncompassionate. I know he means well, and does everything out of love, but he is a bully, and he is not the sort of person you could ever have a real conversation with, because he sees the world in black and white 'I'm right, and if you don't agree with me, you are automatically wrong'. It's kind of weird in his case, because i think he is really vunerable and always has been, but he hides behind the wall.
Titania22 Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I think its a type of karma. Oh and Surrealist, I used to really hate my dad. It has taken alot for me to understand why he acts how he acts, what he is behind the act, and accept him for what he is. So I can feel compassion for him, but I don't invite his bad behaviour to me, and I stand my groud when he is out of line. The same way you would a 2yr old, but without being condescending.
Surrealist Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 Yeah I hope I didn't come across in a way that suggest you should feel any kind of animosity toward your dad. It would be hard though surely, because if he has wounded you at all, sometimes those wounds can stick and continued poor parental behaviours can elicit those ill n hurtful feelings again.
Titania22 Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 Yeah I hope I didn't come across in a way that suggest you should feel any kind of animosity toward your dad. It would be hard though surely, because if he has wounded you at all, sometimes those wounds can stick and continued poor parental behaviours can elicit those ill n hurtful feelings again. No you didn't. I used to have animosity (and wounds) towards him, but I dealt with all that a few years ago. I had a major chip, but my whole life he said, 'we never wanted a little girl'. Then my brother was born and he got 'we never wanted a second child'. It's absolutely laughable now. I wouldn't want to have gone through what he went through in his childhood. And I know he never meant to make me feel unloved, NOW.
Mad Max Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 The person I spoke about in my earlier post who used to be stone cold and sans empathy or compassion of any kind to anyone, is my ex wife's father. He is now a depressed recluse, and though he has somewhat recoved a bit from his really bad depression some 5 to 6 years ago, he remains wallowing in his pity party. Im a pretty empathetic person myself, but I dont feel an ounce of pity toward this man. I think its a type of karma. My dad was the exact same way. A sociopath right to a T. Total lack of empathy and compassion. He's been married 4 times and no one wants anything to do with him. I don't feel the least bit sorry for him. For women that are into these types of men, they have just as many issues to be attracted to such a man.
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 My mother is the same way as the fathers being talked about here. I really think that she would be able to kill a man and feel no remorse whatsoever. Men are pretty much lower than stink bugs to her. My father is your classic man who bends over backwards to please women and not be aggressive. From what I hear he got back from Vietnam and all the aggression and fighting spirit in him was just sucked dry. He did everything in his power to please my mother and it never worked. Part of me being the way I am is that I am extremely afraid to end up like him. I never want to be a doormat trying to please a woman who couldn't care less about me. I would rather be dead than be that. He seems to have finally turned a corner in old age and has gotten some of his balls back though.
Mellisa Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 Why is it that a man has to be afraid to show he is a human being in front of a woman? Women complain that they can't be strong without being looked at as manhating nags and that is true but there is also a flipside to that. Every time I see men let down their armor and show some sensitivity it's like he becomes unattractive in an instant to the woman in his life. She slowly starts to despise him. I saw my father get torn to shreds whenever he showed some weakness and my ex wife even lost attraction because I cried at a funeral of a best friend who was murdered. I was not even allowed to show weakness at that moment.Today I am terrifed of being vulnerable in front of my wife. People want to confide in her about my issues but I won't because the same cycle might happen. What do women here think when they see a man being vulnerable? Be honest. Everyone can be vulnerable at times but we deal with it differently.Some show it some dont.I have no problem with man showing it occasionally.It's not bad that a man is in touch with his feelings and emotions as long as he keeps it under control.It's ok to go to those you are close to and trust to vent or cry. Dont go to random people or people you dont know that well though.If you are in an intimate relationship, shouldnt you feel ok to be vulnerable and not worry about how the other might judge you?That's what close friends,partner and families are for.Life can be hard and dont be so hard on people!
Mellisa Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I love it when my boyfriend shows emotion, I don't think he's less of a man, I'm happy he's not bottling things up because of a fear of what anyone might think of him. This doesn't make him a sissy, he is very much a strong man. We recently found an abandoned dog in our garden and kept her for two days whilst we found a home for her.. We got very attached! The night before she was leaving, I walked into the lounge to find her asleep on his lap and he was crying whilst stroking her and I loved comforting him... The next day, I had a little cry as the woman was taking her away, he comforted me, then once we were back inside he started crying again and we cuddled. I would never ever want a man who couldn't show his emotions. That is so sweet:) I definitely dont think him being less of a man in that case!He sounds really sweet,loving and compassionate.I want a man like that:love:
sally4sara Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 My mother is the same way as the fathers being talked about here. I really think that she would be able to kill a man and feel no remorse whatsoever. Men are pretty much lower than stink bugs to her. My father is your classic man who bends over backwards to please women and not be aggressive. From what I hear he got back from Vietnam and all the aggression and fighting spirit in him was just sucked dry. He did everything in his power to please my mother and it never worked. Part of me being the way I am is that I am extremely afraid to end up like him. I never want to be a doormat trying to please a woman who couldn't care less about me. I would rather be dead than be that. He seems to have finally turned a corner in old age and has gotten some of his balls back though. Ever wonder if your own opinion of your father as spineless has him putting on a macho front when you're around? In effect, you are doing the same thing to him you claim women do to men when they show emotion or weakness? Just something to think about. I don't remember you ever saying something positive about your father until just now - and it was about him having his balls back. The concept, to me anyway, that women find men unattractive if they show emotion of weakness is getting blown well out of proportion by both men and women. I've seen time and time again, some father telling his boy to "not be such a sissy" or "acting like such a girl". Guys telling their guy friends something similar. That men doing it, not a woman. A man showing weakness makes other men uncomfortable too sometimes. On to the next. I'm going to cry sometimes. Snot face and blubbering isn't attractive on me either. Right now, I'm just starting to feel a bit more human because I've had the flu this week. Seriously - not attractive to be coughing up goo and my hair is flat. I'm wearing pjs and a sweat jacket for the fever; also not attractive. Husband gets sick too and he isn't a stunner when he is sick either. So I'm seeing him at his most unattractive at that time too. He'll have it out with his dad about something on the job and he will come home looking faded and pissed. He smells different when he is stupid pissed and it isn't pleasant. So its not his most attractive moment either. He might have a weighty decision to make and ask me what he should do - certainly not his most commanding moment in his life. But I'm damn glad he values me enough to ask for my counsel than if he didn't ask me at all. Friend died - he cried. Friend moved - he cried. We watch UP and when the wife died he blubbered right along with me. No he isn't all that attractive when he is all snot face and blubbering either - just like me in that moment. It isn't pretty. But I already know neither he or I are going to always look like the stunning couple we are right now. We're going to get OLD. I'm talking papery wrinkles, gnarly hands and liver spots one day. I doubt he is going to go bald, but that only means he will probably be all cradle cap in the bed next to me at the retirement village that awaits us all. His wang prolly won't work by then and my vagoo will be like the Sahara. That's friggen life. If it makes your partner of any gender run off - they didn't really love you EVER. Laughter is an emotion. Anger is an emotion. No, I don't want those two extremes to be all I ever see out of my husband because I married what I suspected was a real person. Suspicion confirmed and I'm not going anywhere.
sumdude Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 (edited) I never saw my dad cry. Even after mom died and then his sister. I did see his eyes get wet a couple of time... I'm sure he cried in private which is how a lot of men handle it. Thing is he grew up in Eastern Europe during WWII. He saw some pretty rough stuff perpetrated by the Nazi's and others. He never really talked about it but near the end of his life he let me in on a couple incidents. Summary executions in alleys and the like. In life, he was a true gentleman. I did see flashes of temper which seemed to wane as he aged. I was the youngest and born when he was 41. I get the feeling my older brother may have seen more of that side of dad. As far as showing emotion by a man. There's a distinction between showing emotion and showing weakness. Of course it's all in perception and who's looking at it and how. In my marriage I went into a shell after my mom passed away. You know, the psychological man cave. There were also some issues in the relationship but that's too complicated to get into here. So as I retreated from life for a while to deal with grief in my way I think my ex wasn't strong enough to wait it out. She saw it as weakness, she lost attraction, she looked elsewhere and then was gone. Three years later I was cleaning out some old stuff and found a card. Looking back it was obvious but at the time I didn't quite get what she was saying to me. But in the card was written "I get my strength from you." So yeah, many women will lose it if their man is down and weak for a while. Some women are smart and strong enough to be able to hold things together while he gets his ass back together. But the lesson is obvious. You can't be down for very long or the jig is up. Oh yeah, second big lesson. Make sure the woman you commit to has good character and emotional strength as well. You don't want your partner evacuating the foxhole at the first sound of gunfire. Edited November 11, 2010 by sumdude
quankanne Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 What do women here think when they see a man being vulnerable? Be honest. honestly? It depends on the situation. You burying your friend and being visibly upset is understandable, and my first instinct would be to try to offer comfort. Frankly, your ex was a bXtch for her choice of response, because there are certain situations merit kindness and understanding for the person hurting. BUT a man who constantly makes himself the victim and paints himself as vulnerable? Grrr ... annoying as hell. I've met colleagues in the business who whine about women not understanding their need to stay in touch with their "childlike" side, and frankly, it's just plain ugly to see a grown man act like a titty-baby (can I say titty-baby here?). That's not vulnerability, that's being whiny because you can. And grabbing attention where you can. I guess the difference is, men who choose not to show their vulnerable side, but sometimes do because the pain is so great it just comes out are not wussy or whiners, they're honestly in pain. The ones who make a habit of sharing a "sensitive" side because they feel it makes them somehow more appealing are plain annoying.
Ariadne Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 What's unattractive is constant whining, negativity, and deep insecurity, and those things are often accompanied by depression and other psychological problems. That's not the same as crying at a funeral +1 Womens whole existence is being in fear of life theyre surroundings etc Men are the protectors of them from the scary world Sigh... (one can dream)
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 Ever wonder if your own opinion of your father as spineless has him putting on a macho front when you're around? In effect, you are doing the same thing to him you claim women do to men when they show emotion or weakness? Just something to think about. I don't remember you ever saying something positive about your father until just now - and it was about him having his balls back. He will be the first one to tell you how spineless he was back then. He mad every excuse in the book for her. When she degraded him and put him down in private and public she was expressing her strength and he like having a strong and independent wife and when she cheated on him she was just treating him the way men have treated women for years and she was just expressing her sexuality. When she turned her rage on me he told me I should be understanding and let her express her anger because women have a right to do that. Nothing she ever did was wrong and he apologized for merely existing. He was a typical Alan Alda type of feminist man who hated his own gender and somehow thought that being a doormat when win the affection of a woman. He never knew about the sexual abuse until recently but the fact that he sat and watched his son be abused and tried to excuse is just inexcusable. My apologized recently and I can see the genuine sincerity in his eyes and we have built somewhat of a relationship but I will never hand my balls over to a woman like he did. This is different from emotion. When my friends confide in me about their life drama I am always willing to listen.
sally4sara Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 she cheated on him she was just treating him the way men have treated women for years and she was just expressing her sexuality. Yeah sure, if she was some female human/female preying mantis hybrid!
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 Yeah sure, if she was some female human/female preying mantis hybrid! I don't quite get this.
sally4sara Posted November 11, 2010 Posted November 11, 2010 I don't quite get this. I'm saying it would be a normal way to express her sexuality if she was some human/mantis hybrid.
Author Woggle Posted November 11, 2010 Author Posted November 11, 2010 I'm saying it would be a normal way to express her sexuality if she was some human/mantis hybrid. I am not an expert on the insect world but I think I know what you mean.
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