kkat Posted March 7, 2004 Posted March 7, 2004 I went to a spa resort in Mexico for a week (as those who are following my sad tale know). Lots of beautiful, intelligent, successful, warm, funny women were there. One woman (not me) mentioned how she's been in a five year on and off relationship with a MM, and the floodgates opened. I was amazed and saddened to hear how many women are in situations so similar to mine and those of other posters in this forum. I know we all have different details, and none of us intended to get ourselves into this situation per se, but its also amazing how similar the stories all are. Its also as if there is a book of excuses out there that MM quote from as to why they can't leave their wives...
jenny Posted March 7, 2004 Posted March 7, 2004 you'll forgive me if the image of many women, wealthy enough to take a week spa resort, talking badly of their MMs, does not seem to inspire empathy or interest for them. i do feel bad for the betrayed wives *not* on spa resorts week vacation, however. i like you kkat, don't take this personally. it was the addition of luxury that roused my ire:i hope to g-d every woman there was using her own money, not the money of an insert man, to fund this vacation. but i still think you'd be hard pressed to find people who find this image to be uplifting. really, it's so sad, for everyone involved.
Iamhappy Posted March 7, 2004 Posted March 7, 2004 you'll forgive me if the image of many women, wealthy enough to take a week spa resort, talking badly of their MMs, does not seem to inspire empathy or interest for them. i do feel bad for the betrayed wives *not* on spa resorts week vacation, however. Jenny, my sentiments exactly. Though I'm not quite sure whether to laugh or cry at this statement. Perhaps I'll do a bit of both.
jester Posted March 7, 2004 Posted March 7, 2004 kkat, I'm curious: Were the other women single or married. I assume the ones you met were single women either vacationing alone or with a woman friend. Am I right? How did these other women feel about vacationing alone while their married man vacations with the wife and kids? Was there fatalistic acceptance or a soupcon of resentiment? Had any of these women given ultimatums to their married man and, if so, did they stick to them when their married man stood his ground? Last, for these woman which is greater: regret over wasting precious time with an always unavailable man or guilt over betraying the spouse? I'm curious.
dolphinsunshyn Posted March 7, 2004 Posted March 7, 2004 Yes, There are a lot of OW out there and I think it is truly pathetic. Wait until you become the spouse that has been betrayed! I could never put anyone through that much pain whether I knew them or not. I don't care what kind of line the husband feeds to you. I just wouldn't do it. There are plenty of unmarried men out there who are emotionally available and open to a healthy relationship. Why be a homewrecker?!? If more women had this mentality, it would be hard for guys to cheat, therefore, marriages would last longer, families wouldn't be torn apart, ect. It would be nice if us women would stick together and have loyaty to one another and realize that being on the receiving end of a cheating husband is wrong. The women who are contributing to the husband's affair are only making matters worse for the marriage, giving him an easy way out of confronting his own issues and/or problems, and putting herself in a situation that could be potentialy dangerous (if the wife found out & went crazy). The OW will probably end up alone in the end anyway, so why put one's self in a situation for brief pleasure. Like I said, there are plenty of single available men. Find your own! Sorry....I just had to go off! I have been cheated on. I had no idea that he was unhappy in the marriage becuase the cheating gave him brief moments of pleasure as an escape, instead of having to deal with his own issues of unhappiness. It is cowardly. As a result our marriage ended even though that is not what he wanted. He realized it was the other areas in his life that he was unhappy about not the marriage. But the cheating and OW clouded him from finding out was was truly wrong inside. I had to be put through all of that pain and suffering. It tore my life apart. If there was no OW, we may still be happily married. Who knows. But, I know I wasn't going to stay with someone who was willing to risk our relationship to sort through his own personal problems. I felt I deserved better than that. So I left. I could never be a OW, nor could I ever contribute to that kind of behavior. Why be with someone who can't even deal with his own issues of life? Personally, I would look for someone who has it more together and doesn't have the baggage of a wife and/or kids. Maybe I just want more for myself now. I just have a hard time trying to figure out WHY someone would want a man who had to split his time with a wife and kids? Why wouldn't you want a man who is emotionally available to you and you only? I don't get it.
Author kkat Posted March 7, 2004 Author Posted March 7, 2004 What I was trying to share was simply that I, while on a trip, met several other women who are all in the OW position. I have never claimed that what I'm doing is acceptable, and I'm not saying it's acceptable for these women either. I was trying to share that I find it interesting, troubling, sad, etc. to find that there are so many people - the innocent and otherwise - involved in these relationships. To answer a question posed, most of the women I met who admitted to being current or past OW are single. Two were divorced and had their relationships while they were married. Based on the amount of time we spent talking about work compared to men, married or otherwise, I'd say that every one of us worked our tails off to go on vacation for a week. I am ashamed that I am an OW but I don't think I should be ashamed that I went on a nice vacation. I think someone asked about this - the majority of the women there were single and obviously worked to pay for their own trip; there were also some married women there who don't work so it would appear their husbands paid for them to go. In my case, I paid for it myself, and yes, my MM offered to treat me to the trip after I booked it and told him I was going. But I paid for it myself. And to address another question raised, his wife is on a month long retreat at their luxury home at the beach, 10 days of it with him. I'm confused as to why the thought of OW going on vacation seems to be so infuriating...
jester Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 I'm confused as to why the thought of OW going on vacation seems to be so infuriating... I suspect it's because many here feel, on some cellular level, that the wages of sin is death , not a week long vacation at some Mexican resort.
yes Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 i guess there're just as many OW as there're cheating husbands. no surprise - humans aren't biologically monogamous creatures. such is life, and all the parties have no choice but to deal with it. if they can do it while taking trips to luxurious spas, all the better for 'em! -yes
jenny Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 i was not infuriated. just sad. i'm also not morally horrified; but i would be concerned that the distribution of all disposable resources stays in favour of the legal partner - it's ethics, not morals. you set the scene, and mentioned the problem of the excuse-laden MM. this seems to me a strange displacement of accountability - these women *are* interested in monogamy, and long for it, and place the responsibility to get it on the men who are in other committed relationships? i get hedonism. this is not that. i don't really get the logic of whatever this is, to tell you the truth. this is not a big deal. i'm not sure what response you were looking for; and i do have a lot of sympathy for your particular story - i know you feel things, profoundly, and i admire your recent strength. please don't take this personally. the image of a murder of women lounging aorund in plastic chairs, complaining about the immorality of their MMs, however, seems almost grotesque. it's an aesthetic response, more than anything. anyway, no hard feelings, i hope. good luck to you; i'm glad you had a great vacation and i admire that you paid for it yourself.
dyermaker Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by yes no surprise - humans aren't biologically monogamous creatures. I'm interested in your scientific source on this. Seeing as how humans are more cognitively advanced than other animals, they are able to make rational decisions, especially with regards to time and an awareness of their mortality. Some make the decision to become monogamous, while some don't. Do you have any studies that conclude humans are not monogamous? It's not merely that we're social creatures. Penguins are extremely social creatures, and they're monogamous (even homosexual penguins are monogamous and have the desire to raise children). Other animals mate for life as well--monogamy is not a human invention.
yes Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 At the risk of saying something completely stupid: As far as I know, monogamous species of animals are programmed not to mate with anybody but their partner. I.e. once they have sex with one partner, they stick to him/her, instinctively. Clearly not the case for humans - you prove it yourself by saying that some make a DECISION to be monogamous, and some don't. So, what i meant was - humans aren't biologically programmed to be monogamous. Doesn't mean that they cannot be! -yes
thankful1 Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 The question of finances is an interesting since recently I had a heated argument with a male who insisted that I was 'giving it away" by not taking anything tangible from MM. Said he could not understand how I could feel comfortable being involved with someone who was not providing for me financially. Told him maybe it is because I have met men who because they were giving me so much materially thought that I should be contented dismissing my emotional needs as being of little importance. My view is that whatever MM earns is for the well being of himself and family. I remembering having a conversation with a girlfriend and when I questioned how she was able to afford to go on visits to resorts yet earned far less than I do with more expenses and her response that she was with someone's someone, I could not help but hope that the person's household was not being shortchanged in that aspect too. Maybe I am being hypocritical or just splitting hairs for being disappointed in her for being with him primarily because of the monetary benefit.
Darkangelism Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 even homosexual penguins are monogamous I know you were being serous, and I half agree with your point, but anyway the thought of homosexual penguins having sex was just too funny.
dyermaker Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 Originally posted by yes As far as I know, monogamous species of animals are programmed not to mate with anybody but their partner. I.e. once they have sex with one partner, they stick to him/her, instinctively. Penguins are capable of breeding with more than one partner, they just don't want to. If they are unable to find their partner, they'll grieve, and find someone new. Clearly not the case for humans - you prove it yourself by saying that some make a DECISION to be monogamous, and some don't. Humans are different than animals because they can CHOOSE to deny what they are biologically programmed to do. So I was curious as to what evidence you had to support that humans aren't programmed for monogamy, when it can just as easily be the other way around. Originally posted by Darkangelism I know you were being serous, and I half agree with your point, but anyway the thought of homosexual penguins having sex was just too funny. Hrm, I find the thought of heterosexual penguin sex equally funny, and doubt either of us could tell the difference.
Author kkat Posted March 8, 2004 Author Posted March 8, 2004 No personal offense taken, Jenny. I continue to appreciate your support and opinions - all of them. My point about the excuses of the married men, as discussed by this particular group of lounging women , was not well articulated. I meant to express that the stories and excuses never change, whether you read them on LS or hear them in some random setting. I guess my hope is to express to women who are about to cross the line into the ugly world of OW-doom is that they shouldn't think for a second their MM is the first one, nor will he be the last, to have a long list of reasons why he's not yet left his wife. BTW, the chairs weren't plastic, so visually speaking, it wasn't quite as bad as it could have been Thanks for your ongoing support!
jenny Posted March 8, 2004 Posted March 8, 2004 hey - that was very cool. i see your point - i should have asked for clarification instead of assuming, as well. sorry, and it was gracious of you to explain it further. have revised imagery in head; thank you
Karlise Posted March 14, 2004 Posted March 14, 2004 I just think it's interesting that OW will say 'Oh, I'm not condoning my behavior...' or 'I'm not saying it's acceptable...but...' If it's not acceptable or condonable, why do it? If you are one-half of a cheating couple you have just as much responsibility as the married spouse. Why are you contributing to this? The fact that scores and scores of other women are also 'doing it' does not make it 'righter' and should not make you feel 'better'. It's a sad statement that very few people honor committment or are willing to be honest with their spouses and ask for a divorce. There are scores of MM out there who lie to their mistresses. Their marriages may not, in fact, be all that bad. They may still be having sex with their spouse. They may still be telling their spouse that they love them. There are cases of MM's actually marrying two women and raising two families concurrently! Without either family finding out about the other until the man dies!!! Don't kid yourself. If he lies to his spouse, he will eventually (if not now) be lying to you.
saintfrancis Posted March 14, 2004 Posted March 14, 2004 Karlisle, You are exactly right. I think I've said this before on this forum, but I used to be someone who would NEVER get involved with a married man, nor even with a man who had a girlfriend. NEVER! I had a girlfriend who used to smear herself all over my boyfriends (she did this with 2 of them). She didn't stay my girlfriend after that, because she couldn't respect my relationships. That's just how strongly I felt about the issue. Almost 2 months ago, I ended a relationship that I had been having with a married man. It lasted about 2 years. How did I change? Why did I abandon my beliefs about leaving married people alone? Well, I don't think I can attribute it to any one event. I think it was the result of a string of events in my life, my reaction to which was that I cared less and less about "right and wrong"... and cared less and less about my own value system. I struggle with getting back to the woman I used to be. Now that I have opened the floodgates, I don't know that I can be her again. But, if I changed for the worse, I can certainly change again for the better. That's where I'm at now. I can't speak for the other OW's out there. This is just my perspective. saintfrancis
Skittles Posted March 14, 2004 Posted March 14, 2004 Don't kid yourself. If he lies to his spouse, he will eventually (if not now) be lying to you. ......The cheating mm lies to his wife Friday, lies to his girlfriend Saturday and lies to himself everyday.
Fedup&givingup Posted March 18, 2004 Posted March 18, 2004 Women will take everything you've got because of it.
dyermaker Posted March 18, 2004 Posted March 18, 2004 Fedup, when you talk about infidelity in a way in which you become "Nemesis", you truly lose all nobility.
hopeless Posted March 18, 2004 Posted March 18, 2004 This just supports my basic hypothesis, that women dislike available men and go for big, husky, emotionally unavailable men. Why get involved with a single man? You see my point? Dozens of women all cheating and confessing. Many single men out there. So........am I right or am I right?
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