Understanding Gender Insults

[sweetjasmine]

Have you ever considered what things are like for men?

 

Yes, I have, and I've seen the BS men have to deal with firsthand.

 

Which is why I have very little tolerance for all this gender war crap and for all the ridiculous expectations people place on others and themselves based solely on gender.

 

I don't like expecting men to be the flawless superhero providers of a never-ending stream money any more than I like expecting women to treat college as finishing school because they need to marry a successful man and stay at home knitting sweaters for all 6 kids.

 

I've actually had to make sacrifices, and be accountable to my failures.

 

Same here, which is why I have no clue why you would even suggest that women don't like their traditional gender role because they don't want to be accountable for their actions. FFS, do you really think that women like me dislike a lot of gender expectations because we don't want to be accountable for our failures or actions? Because we don't want to make sacrifices?

 

In my life, I've made sacrifices, admitted my mistakes, and faced my failures. I really don't understand what any of that has to do with gender roles or how women or men view them.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Yes, I have, and I've seen the BS men have to deal with firsthand.

Which is why I have very little tolerance for all this gender war crap and for all the ridiculous expectations people place on others and themselves based solely on gender.

I don't like expecting men to be the flawless superhero providers of a never-ending stream money any more than I like expecting women to treat college as finishing school because they need to marry a successful man and stay at home knitting sweaters for all 6 kids.

Same here, which is why I have no clue why you would even suggest that women don't like their traditional gender role because they don't want to be accountable for their actions. FFS, do you really think that women like me dislike a lot of gender expectations because we don't want to be accountable for our failures or actions? Because we don't want to make sacrifices?

In my life, I've made sacrifices, admitted my mistakes, and faced my failures. I really don't understand what any of that has to do with gender roles or how women or men view them.

 

The difference as I see it is this. I don't try to change my role. I accept it as is and deal with it stoically. I don't have "masculinists" or political organizations dedicated to making things better for me. Nobody really cares. I either perform as expected or be tossed onto the refuse heap with no hope of social assistance. I might not like it from time to time, but I accept the responsibility society places on me.

 

I don't like the extremes of gender roles either. However I see all the time that women have near parity in most aspects, and enjoy the ability to break out of that gender mold if desired. I don't see that same ability for men. If a guy makes less... he is often looked down upon. I mean it goes all the way down to whether a woman has an orgasm or not is the responsibility of the man she is with... not her.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Untouchable_Fire

[Titania22]

I either perform as expected or be tossed onto the refuse heap with no hope of social assistance.

 

I sense you live in America.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I sense you live in America.

 

Yes. I used to work in food kitchens feeding the homeless. Men outnumbered the women probably 10 to 1 or more. The number of mens shelters is so small it barely covers half the men who are homeless at any given time.... they are all run by church groups. The women's shelters are state funded... and mostly empty.

 

I remember I made friends with a middle aged guy who had just lost everything when the tech bubble burst. His stock evaporated, he lost his job, and then his wife divorced him leaving him bankrupt and alone. I tried to find him shelter for 3 weeks making calls between college classes. The rules were insanely strict to the point where it often hampers them in a job search. I was never able to help him find a place. I watched him hospitalized for pneumonia twice in a month. Never saw him again after that. I always hoped he found a way to get back on track... most don't.

 

It doesn't have to be like that. It wouldn't take a huge government program or bajillions of dollars. It would just take people to care. To see guys who are broken down as still being worthwhile.

[Titania22]

It doesn't have to be like that. It wouldn't take a huge government program or bajillions of dollars. It would just take people to care. To see guys who are broken down as still being worthwhile.

 

It's all a big shocker. When I was a kid my dad filled my head with how great America was. Even as a teenager he would say things like 'if we lived in america you would be a cheerleader', he said it with that tone that lets you know, in his mind, that was the ultimate wish he could have had for me.

 

He filled me with that high esteem, that i wished i had grown up there. but now it seems like it's all gone wrong over there. it's really sad. now i feel really lucky to be in australia.

[theBrokenMuse]

It doesn't have to be like that. It wouldn't take a huge government program or bajillions of dollars. It would just take people to care. To see guys who are broken down as still being worthwhile.

The thing is UF, that it SHOULD be given decent government funding but it is not pushed for because of the social stigma of the homeless and it makes me embarrassed for our entire race that we can be so unempathetic as to write off the people that are really down on their luck and hurting as lazy leeches just looking for handouts. I guess it's done because it makes the general populace feel more secure that they will never turn out that way... ugh what ignorant bullcrap.

[Woggle]

I am not denying that women have it tough in many aspects but men get crap in many areas as well. As a man if I marry and have a family no matter how good a husband and father I am I can be thrown out of the home in a heartbeat if a woman snaps her fingers and says she is not happy. I will still have to pay the bills though. She can cheat on me, abuse me physically, verbally and emotionally and treat me any way she wants yet I will still be blamed.

[theBrokenMuse]

OK fair enough.

 

But what you and many of the other women here and elsewhere don't seem to realize is that a modified, more palatable kind of fanaticism is at the root of all of the current "feminist" concepts that you claim to believe/have been indoctrinated with by the media, your education, government, and older female relatives. The agitprop that is being mouthed today is a direct descendant of what you now characterize as "fanaticism."

I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make with this so I'd like to get clarification if that's okay. Were you trying to say that an ideology that has been modified and tempered over time or that has been brought about by dubious sources should be treated with skepticism or that it deems it invalid all together?

[sweetjasmine]

I don't try to change my role. I accept it as is and deal with it stoically.

 

So I should give up on my career and find a job filing papers and answering phones until I manage to find a rich man to pay for everything for me? Should I stop reading about medicine, science, history, and politics because those aren't feminine subjects? Should I start subscribing to Cosmo and Better Homes & Gardens? Should I stoically accept being groped by strange men because that's what happens to women? Should I stoically accept being thought of as less intellectually capable because of my plumbing?

 

What's the benefit in "dealing with it stoically" if it's not what you want out of life? I'm not going to stoically stay "in my place" and flush my ambitions and aspirations down the f-ing toilet because it's traditionally not feminine to pursue a rigorous career. I refuse to sacrifice my happiness, and it makes me sad that people do that.

 

I either perform as expected or be tossed onto the refuse heap with no hope of social assistance. I might not like it from time to time, but I accept the responsibility society places on me.

 

You're talking about working. Guess what, buddy, I have to work to support myself, too, but the difference is that if I'm too ambitious about it, I get looked at funny, like I'm a psycho ball-busting man-hating career woman (Hi, Woggle!), regardless of who I actually am.

 

If you had gotten into medical school, do you think you would have had adcoms, professors, and fellow students judging you differently because of your gender? Do you think your gender would've caused you any problems? Would anyone have given you crap for your career choice? Would anyone have bugged you about how you should stay home and raise children instead?

 

However I see all the time that women have near parity in most aspects, and enjoy the ability to break out of that gender mold if desired. I don't see that same ability for men. If a guy makes less... he is often looked down upon.

 

If a woman makes more, she is often looked down upon or looked at suspiciously or looked at as less feminine, less of a woman. It's not any easier for one person to break out of a traditional gender role than it is for another.

 

I mean it goes all the way down to whether a woman has an orgasm or not is the responsibility of the man she is with... not her.

 

Hey, if you want to talk about sex, we can talk about how promiscuous women are viewed as trashbags whereas men don't get nearly as much harsh judgment in that area. As a female, I've been told that I need to accept the fact that men are going to go to strip clubs and get lap dances and that if I have a problem with it, I'm a controlling prude, but if I wanted to work in a strip club, I would be a trashbag.

 

Men are told they're worthless if they can't get sex from multiple women. Women are told that they need to keep their legs closed but put out for boyfriends but they shouldn't put out too much because then they're not wife material but they should totally do everything that their partner asks.

 

I don't even know why you're arguing all this with me. I've said that traditional gender roles create problems for everyone.

 

And I still have absolutely no clue where your "wanting no standards or accountability" comment came from. It's absurd.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Men are told they're worthless if they can't get sex from multiple women. Women are told that they need to keep their legs closed but put out for boyfriends but they shouldn't put out too much because then they're not wife material but they should totally do everything that their partner asks.

I don't even know why you're arguing all this with me. I've said that traditional gender roles create problems for everyone.

And I still have absolutely no clue where your "wanting no standards or accountability" comment came from. It's absurd.

 

If you go back to the very start of the thread. It's partly about women using insults to reinforce male gender stereotypes.

 

I don't think it's right for so many to complain, complain, complain about the negative gender roles put on women... then turn around and actively reinforce those stereotypes on men.

 

If you want to have a career... great! Stop expecting your man to make more than you. It also doesn't mean you have the right to expect him to take on new roles.... like live in maid. Don't expect that he will clean things when you think they should be cleaned... ect.

 

Bottom line. Don't tell men what they should and should not be.

[donnamaybe]

If you want to have a career... great! Stop expecting your man to make more than you. It also doesn't mean you have the right to expect him to take on new roles.... like live in maid. Don't expect that he will clean things when you think they should be cleaned... ect.

 

Bottom line. Don't tell men what they should and should not be.

See, here you go. You ASSUME she "expects her man to make more than she does." Another unwarrant insult against the female gender.

 

AND - if she is in a relationship and they BOTH contribute financially to the well being of the household (thereby BOTH enjoying the financial benefit of EACH OTHER'S income), why should a man NOT help around the house? WTF is he? Some kind of Leave it to Beaver throwback? Or perhaps a spoiled little boy-child who is incapable of lifting a finger and who needs his mommmmeeeeeeee to take care of him - make him a sammich and wash his underwear?

 

I doubt she'd pick a loser like that anyway.

Edited November 10, 2010 by donnamaybe

[112233]

See, here you go. You ASSUME she "expects her man to make more than she does." Another unwarrant insult against the female gender.

 

Most women are loathe to marry a man who earns less than she does, it's just a fact of life. Some women pair off with low earners but it's somewhat uncommon and I don't know many women who wouldn't prefer a higher earner.

 

Contrast that to men. We really (usually) don't care what you earn. We have other, equally or more shallow things to consider.

[donnamaybe]

I can't - and choose not to - view it, but let me guess. "Blah, blah, blah (women suck) blah, blah, yadda yadda yadda, blah."

 

Was I close?

[112233]

I can't - and choose not to - view it, but let me guess. "Blah, blah, blah (women suck) blah, blah, yadda yadda yadda, blah."

 

Was I close?

 

LOL.

 

OK, what a fun game. Nope, it was more, "women want things that seem shallow and so do men, it's just life", but your preconceived notions of my reply seem a lot more fun, carry on!

[sally4sara]

Most women are loathe to marry a man who earns less than she does, it's just a fact of life. Some women pair off with low earners but it's somewhat uncommon and I don't know many women who wouldn't prefer a higher earner.

 

Contrast that to men. We really (usually) don't care what you earn. We have other, equally or more shallow things to consider.

 

Would it be fair of me to assert that women who find discomfort over a man earning less than her is due to men leading with their wallet in trying to impress women?

 

After all it is the standard we have evolved from; not the other way around.

 

*and yes, it is a tricky sexist question because it implies those women would be lacking original thought*

[112233]

Would it be fair of me to assert that women who find discomfort over a man earning less than her is due to men leading with their wallet in trying to impress women?

 

After all it is the standard we have evolved from;

 

I would say it's fair, you can, but the assertion doesn't hold water. Men do this because it works, in my opinion. Just like lipstick and all the other things women do. Women are attracted to prowess and one easy way to measure prowess by proxy in todays society is by wallet thickness.

[sweetjasmine]

I don't think it's right for so many to complain, complain, complain about the negative gender roles put on women... then turn around and actively reinforce those stereotypes on men.

 

You mean how some men on here also complain about things like alimony/divorce, paying on the first date or most dates, etc. and then turn around and call women trashbags for having different sexual standards/desires/experiences?

 

I don't see how you can leap from behavior like that to "women hate their gender role because they don't want any standards or accountability."

 

If you want to have a career... great! Stop expecting your man to make more than you.

 

Uh, wtf? What gives you the impression that I expect my SO to make more than me? After my training, I stand to make at least 3 times more than he does, and neither of us has a problem with it. Why on earth would we have a problem with it? It means more financial security and a better quality of life for the both of us. To be honest, it's just baffling to me that people would be upset with a partner of one gender earning more or less than the other based on gender expectations. Is that really more important than the fact that they're contributing what they can to the household? Do people really get their ego so bruised that they can't handle more money coming into the household, whether it's from the partner who makes more or the partner who makes less?

 

It also doesn't mean you have the right to expect him to take on new roles.... like live in maid. Don't expect that he will clean things when you think they should be cleaned... ect.

 

I expect him to clean up after himself like a functional adult and to chip in when it comes to household chores. Why is that wrong? Why is it my job to scrub his underwear, do his laundry, clean every room, and wash every dish? If I'm busier than he is, he needs to step up to the plate and help out around the house. If he's busier than I am, I need to step up and help around the house. Completing household tasks to maintain a nice home is a joint responsibility.

 

And it's not a new role for someone who has lived on their own as an adult, unless they've had mom come in every weekend to clean and do laundry for them. Just as working a paying job is a "role" I have to take up as an independent adult, so is taking care of yourself and your living environment.

 

When I read things like this, it's like crossing over into bizarro world where people don't seem to understand the concept of a partnership. For all the complaining you do about those trashy selfish American women, you seem to have a similar mindset in expecting one person to do one set of tasks and excusing yourself of responsibility for doing them.

 

Bottom line. Don't tell men what they should and should not be.

 

Don't tell PEOPLE what they should and should not be.

[112233]

What gives you the impression that I expect my SO to make more than me? After my training, I stand to make at least 3 times more than he does ...

 

What's with the SO stuff? Why not just say husband?

[Untouchable_Fire]

See, here you go. You ASSUME she "expects her man to make more than she does." Another unwarrant insult against the female gender.

AND - if she is in a relationship and they BOTH contribute financially to the well being of the household (thereby BOTH enjoying the financial benefit of EACH OTHER'S income), why should a man NOT help around the house? WTF is he? Some kind of Leave it to Beaver throwback? Or perhaps a spoiled little boy-child who is incapable of lifting a finger and who needs his mommmmeeeeeeee to take care of him - make him a sammich and wash his underwear?

I doubt she'd pick a loser like that anyway.

 

The statement she responded to actually had nothing to do with her. Especially since I've never read her apply overly strong gender roles to anyone. However... she did choose to respond.

 

Why should a guy conform to a woman's idea of neat and tidy if they both work? He should clean what he wants when he feels it needs cleaning. That's what I do. If Miss OCD doesn't like the way I keep things she can clean it herself.

 

You mean how some men on here also complain about things like alimony/divorce, paying on the first date or most dates, etc. and then turn around and call women trashbags for having different sexual standards/desires/experiences?

I don't see how you can leap from behavior like that to "women hate their gender role because they don't want any standards or accountability."

 

I can't speak for everyone but I have yet to see a guy hold women to a sexual standard to which they don't also hold themselves.

 

Uh, wtf? What gives you the impression that I expect my SO to make more than me? After my training, I stand to make at least 3 times more than he does, and neither of us has a problem with it. Why on earth would we have a problem with it? It means more financial security and a better quality of life for the both of us. To be honest, it's just baffling to me that people would be upset with a partner of one gender earning more or less than the other based on gender expectations. Is that really more important than the fact that they're contributing what they can to the household? Do people really get their ego so bruised that they can't handle more money coming into the household, whether it's from the partner who makes more or the partner who makes less?

 

Clearly this is a touchy subject for you. On a personal level... don't worry about it until you start getting the paychecks. If you begin struggling with your attraction levels afterwards, there may be some things that can help you.

 

I don't care who makes what. All I can say for sure is that when I was just barely scraping by... the 3 relationships I had in that time period... and my failed marriage before that actually... all had money as the #1 issue. To varying degrees each one of those women had an issue with me making less.

 

My xW actually told me one time that her libido was tied directly to my level of ambition.

 

I expect him to clean up after himself like a functional adult and to chip in when it comes to household chores. Why is that wrong? Why is it my job to scrub his underwear, do his laundry, clean every room, and wash every dish? If I'm busier than he is, he needs to step up to the plate and help out around the house. If he's busier than I am, I need to step up and help around the house. Completing household tasks to maintain a nice home is a joint responsibility.

 

It's not your job. It's his job. However, it's also not your job to tell him how or when to do his job.

 

The level of maintenance should be mutually agreed upon.

 

And it's not a new role for someone who has lived on their own as an adult, unless they've had mom come in every weekend to clean and do laundry for them. Just as working a paying job is a "role" I have to take up as an independent adult, so is taking care of yourself and your living environment.

When I read things like this, it's like crossing over into bizarro world where people don't seem to understand the concept of a partnership. For all the complaining you do about those trashy selfish American women, you seem to have a similar mindset in expecting one person to do one set of tasks and excusing yourself of responsibility for doing them.

Don't tell PEOPLE what they should and should not be.

 

Not quite. I am very adept at taking care of myself. I've been doing it for 12 years... and for many of those years I took care of others as well.

 

What I object to... is being told how and when to do these tasks. If I let dishes pile up until Wednesday, because I'm busy.... that's my choice.

[112233]

Why should a guy conform to a woman's idea of neat and tidy if they both work? He should clean what he wants when he feels it needs cleaning. That's what I do. If Miss OCD doesn't like the way I keep things she can clean it herself.

 

 

I wondered and kept silent. It was clear to me you were saying the above but I *knew* some chick was going to go all "SHE NOT YER MAID LUSER" on you. Sure enough. Boom.

 

It's the same thought process that leads to the toilet seat battle.

[Surrealist]

AND - if she is in a relationship and they BOTH contribute financially to the well being of the household (thereby BOTH enjoying the financial benefit of EACH OTHER'S income), why should a man NOT help around the house? WTF is he? Some kind of Leave it to Beaver throwback? Or perhaps a spoiled little boy-child who is incapable of lifting a finger and who needs his mommmmeeeeeeee to take care of him - make him a sammich and wash his underwear?

 

 

Bahahahahhahaha! Oh that was good. Props sister!

[Titania22]

Why should a guy conform to a woman's idea of neat and tidy if they both work? He should clean what he wants when he feels it needs cleaning. That's what I do. If Miss OCD doesn't like the way I keep things she can clean it herself.

 

 

 

This isn't actually a gender thing, it is more about peoples tolerance to mess. Because I am extremely tolerant with mess, most men can't handle it. I like things clean and tidy too, but I hate housework, and screw actually picking up after someone else, picking up after myself is an acchievement. The beauty of this is that occasionally a time can be picked where everyone in the house has to clean for 30mins or an hour and then we go back to the endless funn. I must admit, i usually only do these cleaning group activities on school holidays as i totally agree with the whole you've been at work or school all day, the last thing you want to do is clean. Of course i try much harder when every thing i do is appreciated and i don't feel pressured or obligated. In that respect i am a bit like a man in a womans body.

[sweetjasmine]

Why should a guy conform to a woman's idea of neat and tidy if they both work?

 

You're right. Why should a man who likes a neat house conform to a woman being a slob if they both work?

 

If Miss OCD doesn't like the way I keep things she can clean it herself.

 

It's funny to me that you're assuming the female is going to be OCD and the male isn't.

 

The biggest slob I have ever seen in my life was a female subletter I lived with for several weeks. She literally did no cleaning except washing dishes she used after leaving them in the sink for over a week. She would use the toilet and not flush. She would leave crap all over the stove. Her room was absolutely disgusting. It looked like a bomb went off, and there were crumbs all over the floor. The trash can was overflowing.

 

Clearly this is a touchy subject for you. On a personal level... don't worry about it until you start getting the paychecks. If you begin struggling with your attraction levels afterwards, there may be some things that can help you.

 

It's a "touchy subject" because my partner holds himself to those stupid standards, and I wish he wouldn't think less of himself for not making 6 figures and driving a BMW.

 

The level of maintenance should be mutually agreed upon.

 

Yes, and that has nothing to do with gender.

 

But what about right now? Who is making more money right now?

 

Is he putting you through school, or at least providing you with any sort of financial support?

 

He is making more money, but he has no savings. I've put more money into the apartment than he has, using my savings. I've regularly been lending him money here and there despite the fact that he's pulling in a paycheck. If it weren't for my savings, he wouldn't have been able to move and pay the security deposit, since his new company didn't offer any relocation pay.

 

The only way he's putting me through school is through emotional support and encouragement.

 

You've made a point of asserting that women have the right to be just as selfish and ruthless as men. O.K. point taken.

 

No, you haven't understood a single thing I wrote. Not surprised.

 

Maybe you don't need him so much then. Maybe he doesn't seem so attractive then. Maybe you decide you don't want to support him.

 

[MrNate]

Why can't we all just live and let live? Why insult anyone?

 

I see females taking more of a beating than males on here. I really can't blame them for lasing out. Even then, when they're upset, they respond from a logical standpoint..

 

Why all the tension?

[Ross PK]

What's with the SO stuff? Why not just say husband?

 

Have a think about it, I'm sure you'll get it. Or maybe not...