donnamaybe Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 In hindsight instead of going more general I should have been more specific and excluded women in the middle of the country and a good chunk in the south, as those dating cultures seem much different.Geographical location - not just nationality - DOES have a lot to do with an attitude of entitlement. And yes... some women in other countries suck just as bad. However, the numbers are fewer... and I often see them held accountable. Whereas here women are glorified for poor behavior.But only on reality TV.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted November 9, 2010 Author Posted November 9, 2010 I think the point here is that MANY men and women alike see being called womanly as an insult. You see? So all men have to do to insult women is say they're being "such a girl." Whether or not it sucks that being called a "girl" is an insult to so many people is a topic for another dissertation. But this is about the intent to insult, and the fact is, it's not a matter of whether you call someone womanly or manly - it's whether you're implying they're weak. And to too many people, feminine = weak. Get it? WHOAH... No way! If I say a woman is being feminine... 99 times in 100 I'm saying she is attractive. Girly is the same as Boyish, as it implies immaturity. You should note that when I make a post I do not use the words Girl and woman interchangeably. I often use girl when talking about immature behavior. It's only insulting to call a guy feminine.... not a woman.
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I think the point here is that MANY ... women ... see being called womanly as an insult. Well there's your problem. See, it's different AND it's not even an insult. It's some sort of mental imbalance at best. Seriously, you would be insulted by being called womanly? Wow.
flying Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Well there's your problem. See, it's different AND it's not even an insult. It's some sort of mental imbalance at best. Seriously, you would be insulted by being called womanly? Wow. I think you are wilfully misunderstanding me. As I recall, there was another recently departed poster who had this M.O. Deja vu.
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I think you are wilfully misunderstanding me. As I recall, there was another recently departed poster who had this M.O. Deja vu. Well I'm not willfully misunderstanding you, I understand you, and agree with you up to the point were you say apples and oranges are the same. Apples exist and are fruit, oranges exist and are fruit. Apples are not oranges. The rest of your comment I don't fully get.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 OK fine, but they didn't say "a real woman wouldn't be too irrational and emotional to have a logical conversation with", which is what this is supposed to be about. They might have commented based on gender stereotypes, but not implied the person was somehow less a woman. I guess the issue I have with that particular train of thought is that to me while there is some difference between telling someone that they are a lesser woman and that they are lesser because they are a woman, they are both comments that target someone's sex as a means of producing an insult.
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I guess the issue I have with that particular train of thought is that to me while there is some difference between telling someone that they are a lesser woman and that they are lesser because they are a woman, they are both comments that target someone's sex as a means of producing an insult. That I mostly completely agree with, but that's not what the OP was posting about. They are both insults that have something to do with gender, but only one implies the target is less a member of their gender. EDIT: strikeout above and ... The second case doesn't TARGET so much as USE.
Woggle Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I just don't understand why women who embody none of the traits these men find repulsive get so upset about it. If none of it applies to you then move on because men are not talking about you. Why do they take it so personally?
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I just don't understand why women who embody none of the traits these men find repulsive get so upset about it. If none of it applies to you then move on because men are not talking about you. Why do they take it so personally? Indeed. "well that's not me OR ANY of my MANY MANY friends, and you're a pig for not liking .... erm, those OTHER sort of women!!!1!"
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I just don't understand why women who embody none of the traits these men find repulsive get so upset about it. If none of it applies to you then move on because men are not talking about you. Why do they take it so personally? For the same reason you let the Cheating Twins bother you when you're not married to them is my guess. You find the attitudes behind their words and actions disgusting despite how little it affects you and your life.
Woggle Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 For the same reason you let the Cheating Twins bother you when you're not married to them is my guess. You find the attitudes behind their words and actions disgusting despite how little it affects you and your life. I find their actions disgusting just like you should find cheating men disgusting. Women who simply vent and have never actually wronged a man really don't bother me much. I can tell the difference between real misandry and venting but some women can't seem to tell the difference between real misogyny and venting.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted November 9, 2010 Author Posted November 9, 2010 Geographical location - not just nationality - DOES have a lot to do with an attitude of entitlement. But only on reality TV. Even in the regular news media. Kate Moss is constantly glorified, same as Paris, and Naomi Campbell. The idea is that if your pretty enough you can treat people however you like and it's Ok... you will still get tons of attention. But that's not really my point in this thread. Here I'm pointing out that there is some serious hypocrisy in how we apply gender stereotypes. Especially regarding how insults are formed. These insults CLEARLY are intended to reinforce rigid gender roles in men. In fact... I think this hurts gay men in particular, because women bash "unmanly" men... it creates the idea among other men that guys who act femininely are a lower class of men.
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 I find their actions disgusting just like you should find cheating men disgusting. Women who simply vent and have never actually wronged a man really don't bother me much. I can tell the difference between real misandry and venting but some women can't seem to tell the difference between real misogyny and venting. I find cheating ANYONE disgusting. I also find someone distinguishing between genders just to gauge how disgusting an action is, further disgusting. The reason why I found the "low-grade" thread insulting was that many of the guys posting in the thread only found the behavior being discussed disgusting if a women did it. They had either the opposite opinion about men doing it or claimed they had zero opinion about it "because they don't date men". Add to that the fact that a few even went further to target me and ascribe completely false assumptions of my behavior and actions and I fail to see how I would have not felt insulted.
Woggle Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Men are just sticking together and sticking up for our gender like women do. If women have each other's backs why can't men? Plenty of women will condemn things in a man while high five a woman that does it.
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Men are just sticking together and sticking up for our gender like women do. If women have each other's backs why can't men? Plenty of women will condemn things in a man while high five a woman that does it. Yeah Woggle, that's why they even insulted my husband and male friend's integrity. And I don't have someone's back simply because I have the same plumbing they do. We're all humans and I'd like to see us all treated with some basic dignity. Poo flinging just makes us all smell like ****.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted November 9, 2010 Author Posted November 9, 2010 Men are just sticking together and sticking up for our gender like women do. If women have each other's backs why can't men? Plenty of women will condemn things in a man while high five a woman that does it. I'd say the top 3 categories for this are 1. Cheating, 2. Divorce, and 3. Sleeping around. Not in any particular order. The attitude is less High 5 in reality and more... "it's all the man's fault". GF or wife cheats on you? It's because you did something wrong!
112233 Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Men are just sticking together and sticking up for our gender like women do. If women have each other's backs why can't men? Plenty of women will condemn things in a man while high five a woman that does it. My personal favorite was a movie that should have been called "How to go be a Sex Tourist", but they retitled it "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" or some such nonsense. If that had been a guy in Bangkok I don't think it would have been as widely loved by women. Or anyone, really.
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 My personal favorite was a movie that should have been called "How to go be a Sex Tourist", but they retitled it "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" or some such nonsense. If that had been a guy in Bangkok I don't think it would have been as widely loved by women. Or anyone, really. Touche on that one.
Woggle Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Yeah Woggle, that's why they even insulted my husband and male friend's integrity. And I don't have someone's back simply because I have the same plumbing they do. We're all humans and I'd like to see us all treated with some basic dignity. Poo flinging just makes us all smell like ****. Your world is the one I wish for but in the world we live in gender matters. If women have strength in numbers so should men. I never insulted your husband or your male friends. I don't know them but many women have insulted my wife. Not on here but some women I know consider her a stepford wife. She is an educated, successful woman who dumped a man on the spot because he cheated but she is a doormat because she is faithful and treats me well but somehow my ex who has no education and can't keep a job more than a couple weeks is a feminist hero to them. Does this make sense to you?
Woggle Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 My personal favorite was a movie that should have been called "How to go be a Sex Tourist", but they retitled it "How Stella Got Her Groove Back" or some such nonsense. If that had been a guy in Bangkok I don't think it would have been as widely loved by women. Or anyone, really. That is from the same woman who made that black male bash fest called Waiting to Exhale. It's karma that her husband turned out to be gay.
sally4sara Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Your world is the one I wish for but in the world we live in gender matters. If women have strength in numbers so should men. I never insulted your husband or your male friends. I don't know them but many women have insulted my wife. Not on here but some women I know consider her a stepford wife. She is an educated, successful woman who dumped a man on the spot because he cheated but she is a doormat because she is faithful and treats me well but somehow my ex who has no education and can't keep a job more than a couple weeks is a feminist hero to them. Does this make sense to you? No it doesn't Woggle, if those are in fact their reasoning. I have seen a few posters (including myself) wonder what kind of woman would gravitate to a man who claims to be so outspoken against women who idealize equality. It took me a while to figure out when you say feminist, you are not talking about real feminists so I use to wonder about your wife. Can't recall insulting her though. But you have insulted me directly before. Pretty sure I dished it back to you cuz that's what I do when I'm insulted.
Stung Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 True... but I'm really just trying to say that they should not have been insulted. If a woman says she doesn't date men with blue eyes because they are blue eyed devils... I don't get insulted. I wish her the best and move on. Maybe I think she is kinda nuts later, but I definitely don't get insulted at her opinion. So... why should those women get insulted when a guy says he won't date highly promiscuous women because they are crazy? Most of the women who seemed insulted were not what most would consider promiscuous. So... what the heck? UF, if you will look back, you did not say that women who had FWB were not your type, you said that women who had FWB were trashbags. Do you not see the difference? Women have been treated like objects/commodities throughout history, and most modern women still feel it in their daily lives; using dehumanizing speech about women is going to offend a lot of women even if it didn't target them specifically. In addition, promiscuous is highly subjective. I am monogamous and married and never had a FWB, but I did date a lot before I ever met my husband and by some people's definitions on this board I'm a promiscuous woman. Why would I take kindly to being obliquely referred to as a crazy trashbag, when I can assure you I am in fact neither? Sometimes you are far more thoughtful and reasoned than the majority of the angry posters here, and other times you say things like 'American women are bad mothers' and then act surprised that such a hurtful statement hurts the feelings of dozens of American women who are now or hope to be mothers and whose sisters and friends and mothers are American mothers. It's honestly hard for me to understand.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted November 9, 2010 Author Posted November 9, 2010 No it doesn't Woggle, if those are in fact their reasoning. I have seen a few posters (including myself) wonder what kind of woman would gravitate to a man who claims to be so outspoken against women who idealize equality. It took me a while to figure out when you say feminist, you are not talking about real feminists so I use to wonder about your wife. Can't recall insulting her though. But you have insulted me directly before. Pretty sure I dished it back to you cuz that's what I do when I'm insulted. There is like 1 guy with 45 profiles and unlimited time. Don't take that guy as representative of anything but craziness.
that girl Posted November 9, 2010 Posted November 9, 2010 Untouchable Fire, you seem to have this odd notion that it is no big deal to insult half the population but a huge deal to insult an individual. If someone said I was a B****, I can see myself reacting a few ways: 1) genuine concern that I might have intentionally offended them 2) rolling my eyes because I am just returning their bad behavior It really depends on what happened right before that. But if someone starts saying most men or women are bad, I lose total respect for the person. There is some leeway if the person is obviously dealing with a recent traumatic break-up. With those folks, as soon as you say "Bob/Tammy is obviously a horrible person, but you know most men/women out there aren't like that. You just have to give yourself some time to heal and then you'll meet someone great" they agree with you. They might talk about how hard it is to trust, but they were clearly just being hyperbolic. Calling a man a sorry excuse for a man isn't a nice thing to say, but it isn't 1/100th as messed up as saying all men/women are cheaters, dead beats, irrational, etc. Some men are sorry excuses for men.
Author Untouchable_Fire Posted November 9, 2010 Author Posted November 9, 2010 UF, if you will look back, you did not say that women who had FWB were not your type, you said that women who had FWB were trashbags. Do you not see the difference? Women have been treated like objects/commodities throughout history, and most modern women still feel it in their daily lives; using dehumanizing speech about women is going to offend a lot of women even if it didn't target them specifically. In addition, promiscuous is highly subjective. I am monogamous and married and never had a FWB, but I did date a lot before I ever met my husband and by some people's definitions on this board I'm a promiscuous woman. Why would I take kindly to being obliquely referred to as a crazy trashbag, when I can assure you I am in fact neither? Sometimes you are far more thoughtful and reasoned than the majority of the angry posters here, and other times you say things like 'American women are bad mothers' and then act surprised that such a hurtful statement hurts the feelings of dozens of American women who are now or hope to be mothers and whose sisters and friends and mothers are American mothers. It's honestly hard for me to understand. Not my most thoughtful phrase... in fact it's quoted enough that I regret using it. I was attempting to say that it's my opinion that they are indeed low quality and thus not my type. Trashbag was an unfortunately strong term. You've pointed that out to me before. Sometimes I am very measured and thoughtful... and sometimes I'm grumpy and mean. Since you first mentioned that trend I've noticed that when talking to people about their specific problems... I don't have the same feeling as when I talking about things in general. Which is a weird dichotomy. I think it's because on an individual basis I can look at a person and empathize with their situation. However when I'm not looking at a person in particular... I don't feel that empathy. I look around and see bad mothers everywhere around me. I see some good ones too, but overall the ones I see are bad by my standards.
Recommended Posts