When I was young

[wheelwright]

I thought that if my BF wanted another he was within his rights even if it hurt.

 

Because I wanted his love only if it flew in the face of cultural morals.

 

I only wanted his love if it meant everything.

 

Perhaps I was naive?

[wheelwright]

I thought that if my BF wanted another he was within his rights even if it hurt.

 

Because I wanted his love only if it flew in the face of cultural morals.

 

I only wanted his love if it meant everything.

 

Perhaps I was naive?[/QUOTE]

 

Love is naive?

[desertIslandCactus]

It's not naive to feel that the two can/should be of the same mindset .. or of the same accord..

[Owl]

I thought that if my BF wanted another he was within his rights even if it hurt.

 

Because I wanted his love only if it flew in the face of cultural morals.

 

I only wanted his love if it meant everything.

 

Perhaps I was naive?

 

If your BF wanted another, he was within his rights...to end his relationship with you, and then pursue the relationship with another.

 

Today, a married person is within their rights...to end their marriage if they're unhappy in it, freeing themselves and their spouse to pursue another.

 

If you felt that your BF was within his rights to pursue another and lie to you about it to maintain both relationships for some period of time...then you were indeed being naive...IMHO.

[YellowShark]

I thought that if my BF wanted another he was within his rights even if it hurt.

 

He was/is within his rights. But he is not "within his rights" to throw his current partner - (who can be his emotional and financial partner) - under a bus to do so.

 

IMHO that kinda behaviour is simply selfish, cruel, and heartless.

[2sure]

You were young and stupid just like I was when I mistakenly thought banging another woman's H did not involve her.

 

Your bf wanting to have sex with another woman is not something uncommon to accept especially if you are young, open minded, and sexually liberal. And you know about it.

 

But to be comfortable about being lied to or betrayed....thats way more than naive.

[wheelwright]

If your BF wanted another, he was within his rights...to end his relationship with you, and then pursue the relationship with another.

 

Today, a married person is within their rights...to end their marriage if they're unhappy in it, freeing themselves and their spouse to pursue another.

 

If you felt that your BF was within his rights to pursue another and lie to you about it to maintain both relationships for some period of time...then you were indeed being naive...IMHO.

 

Nope. He wanted an open R. I was 17. I didn't know how to deal with it tbh.

 

He didn't lie, though he did later.

 

(Is there anybody out there who doesn't lie? Other than Dex and Bent I mean?)

 

I agree with you that this means the end of the R. I am not sure why though, if it was just sex.

 

I guess what I am trying to get at, is that old chestnut, if you love someone let them go. Is that true? Or is there something important in the possesive impulse?

[wheelwright]

You were young and stupid just like I was when I mistakenly thought banging another woman's H did not involve her.

 

Your bf wanting to have sex with another woman is not something uncommon to accept especially if you are young, open minded, and sexually liberal. And you know about it.

 

But to be comfortable about being lied to or betrayed....thats way more than naive.

 

But some Rs work on the basis that such deception is to be overlooked so both partners can seek what they need/want and still come home to security. My friends are doing this to some success!

 

They want to grow old together.

 

I don't understand it myself. But I know my H's faithfulness only means something so long as he wants to be faithful.

 

Then again, I was caught singing in my sleep the other night (WTF? - not a common occurrence) the lyrics to PIL song (Rise):

 

'I could be wrong. I could be right' - great guitar riff.

[flying]

I guess I would ask...how much of the "possessive impulse" is really just an accurate, self-protective sense that your partner isn't respecting or being thoughtful of you?

 

I think there are people who can have open relationships without respect being an issue...but by and large, that isn't the case. And at 17, I'm quite sure that wasn't the case. It's one thing to enter into an open relationship when both people know what they're getting into and can agree to it maturely, but it's quite another for one partner to impose that on the other person and ignore the pain it causes. That's not love either. And I think you probably sensed that, and that's what causes the "possessive impulse" - a desire to hold tighter, to cling to something out of fear.

 

Cheating, meanwhile, can be a very hostile act, often borne of unexpressed, perhaps even unrecognized, anger at the BS. And I think many BS sense this, too. There's so much more to cheating than just sex or even love, and that's what causes much of the psychodrama.

Edited November 11, 2010 by flying

[Owl]

Nope. He wanted an open R. I was 17. I didn't know how to deal with it tbh.

 

He didn't lie, though he did later.

 

(Is there anybody out there who doesn't lie? Other than Dex and Bent I mean?)

 

I agree with you that this means the end of the R. I am not sure why though, if it was just sex.

 

I guess what I am trying to get at, is that old chestnut, if you love someone let them go. Is that true? Or is there something important in the possesive impulse?

 

I guess I'm looking at it differently. If he doesn't treat you with love and respect...then get away from him.

 

If you want to view your actions in a noble light then you can look at it from that "let him go" viewpoint if you wish.

 

The end result is the same, and the fact remains that he's removed from your life, no longer able to inflict pain on you.

 

I'm struggling with following you on this thread, I freely admit. What is it you're trying to say, or trying to discuss?

[wheelwright]

I guess I would ask...how much of the "possessive impulse" is really just an accurate, self-protective sense that your partner isn't respecting or being thoughtful of you?

 

I think there are people who can have open relationships without respect being an issue...but by and large, that isn't the case. And at 17, I'm quite sure that wasn't the case. It's one thing to enter into an open relationship when both people know what they're getting into and can agree to it maturely, but it's quite another for one partner to impose that on the other person and ignore the pain it causes. That's not love either. And I think you probably sensed that, and that's what causes the "possessive impulse" - a desire to hold tighter, to cling to something out of fear.

 

Cheating, meanwhile, can be a very hostile act, often borne of unexpressed, perhaps even unrecognized, anger at the BS. And I think many BS sense this, too. There's so much more to cheating than just sex or even love, and that's what causes much of the psychodrama.

 

I really liked this response.

 

Yes, my cheating wouldn't have happened if it weren't for this kind of hostility to my BS.

 

You spoke about my earlier example with great clarity. Thanks.

 

I think the 'possessive impulse' is an interesting topic. May bring it up later.

[wheelwright]

I guess I'm looking at it differently. If he doesn't treat you with love and respect...then get away from him.

 

If you want to view your actions in a noble light then you can look at it from that "let him go" viewpoint if you wish.

 

The end result is the same, and the fact remains that he's removed from your life, no longer able to inflict pain on you.

 

I'm struggling with following you on this thread, I freely admit. What is it you're trying to say, or trying to discuss?

 

I think one element of what I'm trying to discuss (and thank you for patience!) is that there is a conflict between cultural morals and loving feelings we want to express. And a relationship between this and naivity that I don't understand. So looking for any pointers.

 

In some ways, it is an alternative version, more confused, less judgemental, to Dexter's.

 

Like, yep, if you want to go/be with another, in some ways this should be allowed - you are free. Therefore I should not really feel angry or hostile if you do this. Even if you test the water first because that would be both emotionally and rationally (even sexually) driven anyway. Even if we decided this wasn't part of what we wanted, you changed. And I have to respect that.

 

And then if you want to leave, I should be reasonable, even if hurts. And if you want to stay, I should consider that from my own angle, with the help of your honesty.

 

But I see this isn't what happens. Hence my naivity hits me in the face.

 

Where is the respect for the WS?

 

I guess I am questioning about the elements of the contract of fidelity which speak to me and are important, and those which do not. I suppose it's a question of values. I have different values which are fighting for supremacy in me. When I say 'why not respect the WS's choices?' it's less devil's advocate, more honest enquiry.

 

It's difficult, because I see so many lives around me, good friends making their choices and feeling morally right. And all different. Most people know what's right for themselves. I am at a stage in life when I am trying to work that out, and appreciate all the voices (well most) here.

Edited November 19, 2010 by wheelwright

[wheelwright]

He was/is within his rights. But he is not "within his rights" to throw his current partner - (who can be his emotional and financial partner) - under a bus to do so.

 

IMHO that kinda behaviour is simply selfish, cruel, and heartless.

 

I agree. Unless that partner doesn't love them. And that is not always easy to ascertain.

[FryFish]

Wow WW... You are ALL KINDS OF MESSED UP! Seriously... Stay out of supposedly monogamous relationships... They arent YOUR thing.

[Owl]

I think one element of what I'm trying to discuss (and thank you for patience!) is that there is a conflict between cultural morals and loving feelings we want to express. And a relationship between this and naivity that I don't understand. So looking for any pointers.

 

In some ways, it is an alternative version, more confused, less judgemental, to Dexter's.

 

The only reason that conflict exists between "loving feelings" and "cultural morals" is when you deliberately, intentionally, willfully engage in activities that are outside of those morals.

 

It's a CHOICE. And that conflict is a consequence of that choice.

 

 

Like, yep, if you want to go/be with another, in some ways this should be allowed - you are free. Therefore I should not really feel angry or hostile if you do this. Even if you test the water first because that would be both emotionally and rationally (even sexually) driven anyway. Even if we decided this wasn't part of what we wanted, you changed. And I have to respect that.

 

I call bullshyte on this. If you want to explore a relationship with another...you end the one you're in FIRST. You don't get to test drive and see how it feels first.

 

Because if you do so, you're nearly always doing so WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT WITH YOUR CURRENT PARTNER FIRST.

 

You're engaging in lying, deceitful behavior which will nearly always emotionally devestate the partner you're currently with.

 

You're trying to glorify and romanticize the idea of trying it out with someone first, while completly ignoring the pain that you're going to cause to someone you made promises and committments to.

 

Don't try to make this pretty with nice words.

 

There is NO expectation that someone should "respect" your choice to cheat on them. Again, BULLSHYTE.

 

YOU are creating an unreasonable expectation there. You're trying to make it sound like someone who's been betrayed and cheated on should accept it, or see it for some kind of 'positive thing'...when it's typically one of the most emotionally devestating experiences they'll go through.

 

Face the facts here, friend. You're trying to justify the actions you've taken by dressing it up pretty. Putting a pig in a dress isn't going to turn it into a runway model.

 

And then if you want to leave, I should be reasonable, even if hurts. And if you want to stay, I should consider that from my own angle, with the help of your honesty.

 

But I see this isn't what happens. Hence my naivity hits me in the face.

 

Where is the respect for the WS?

 

The respect for the WS was completely and totally lost when the WS engaged in actions and activities that led to the destruction of the relation, and the emotional devestation of the person that they claimed to love.

 

You don't earn respect by engaging in selfish, destructive actions that you KNOW will hurt someone else.

 

Sorry...again...this is just some seriously skewed thinking.

 

If you want honesty...give honesty. End the relationship based on why it won't work, THEN explore your other options.

 

Don't go seeking someone else...with the full awareness that you're about to bring another person's life crashing down around their ears.

 

And don't be so self-centered enough to think that they should respect you for it, or in some way feel that what you've done is justified and they should just accept it.

 

I guess I am questioning about the elements of the contract of fidelity which speak to me and are important, and those which do not. I suppose it's a question of values. I have different values which are fighting for supremacy in me. When I say 'why not respect the WS's choices?' it's less devil's advocate, more honest enquiry.

 

It's difficult, because I see so many lives around me, good friends making their choices and feeling morally right. And all different. Most people know what's right for themselves. I am at a stage in life when I am trying to work that out, and appreciate all the voices (well most) here.

 

This entire thread has been about rationalization of your actions.

 

You're trying to paint cheating as a high-brow, deeply thought out, emotionally complex thing.

 

It's not.

 

You were married. Something inside you allowed you to feel that it was ok to be with another man...emotionally, physically, whatever.

 

You...despite the vows you took to your husband, pursued that other opportunity.

 

In doing so, you deceived your husband, lied to him about what was going on, and very likely handed him a heart-load of emotional truama and distress.

 

And you're still seeking ways to make it look like it's something more than that.

 

This is SIMPLE. It's not complex, it's not complicated, nor is it some noble calling. Plain and simple.

 

My honest advice to you is to divorce your husband, ASAP.

 

Seek out whoever you like then.

 

But avoid anymore committed relationships.

[wheelwright]

The only reason that conflict exists between "loving feelings" and "cultural morals" is when you deliberately, intentionally, willfully engage in activities that are outside of those morals.

 

It's a CHOICE. And that conflict is a consequence of that choice.

 

 

 

I call bullshyte on this. If you want to explore a relationship with another...you end the one you're in FIRST. You don't get to test drive and see how it feels first.

 

Because if you do so, you're nearly always doing so WITHOUT DISCUSSING IT WITH YOUR CURRENT PARTNER FIRST.

 

You're engaging in lying, deceitful behavior which will nearly always emotionally devestate the partner you're currently with.

 

You're trying to glorify and romanticize the idea of trying it out with someone first, while completly ignoring the pain that you're going to cause to someone you made promises and committments to.

 

Don't try to make this pretty with nice words.

 

There is NO expectation that someone should "respect" your choice to cheat on them. Again, BULLSHYTE.

 

YOU are creating an unreasonable expectation there. You're trying to make it sound like someone who's been betrayed and cheated on should accept it, or see it for some kind of 'positive thing'...when it's typically one of the most emotionally devestating experiences they'll go through.

 

Face the facts here, friend. You're trying to justify the actions you've taken by dressing it up pretty. Putting a pig in a dress isn't going to turn it into a runway model.

 

 

 

The respect for the WS was completely and totally lost when the WS engaged in actions and activities that led to the destruction of the relation, and the emotional devestation of the person that they claimed to love.

 

You don't earn respect by engaging in selfish, destructive actions that you KNOW will hurt someone else.

 

Sorry...again...this is just some seriously skewed thinking.

 

If you want honesty...give honesty. End the relationship based on why it won't work, THEN explore your other options.

 

Don't go seeking someone else...with the full awareness that you're about to bring another person's life crashing down around their ears.

 

And don't be so self-centered enough to think that they should respect you for it, or in some way feel that what you've done is justified and they should just accept it.

 

 

 

This entire thread has been about rationalization of your actions.

 

You're trying to paint cheating as a high-brow, deeply thought out, emotionally complex thing.

 

It's not.

 

You were married. Something inside you allowed you to feel that it was ok to be with another man...emotionally, physically, whatever.

 

You...despite the vows you took to your husband, pursued that other opportunity.

 

In doing so, you deceived your husband, lied to him about what was going on, and very likely handed him a heart-load of emotional truama and distress.

 

And you're still seeking ways to make it look like it's something more than that.

 

This is SIMPLE. It's not complex, it's not complicated, nor is it some noble calling. Plain and simple.

 

My honest advice to you is to divorce your husband, ASAP.

 

Seek out whoever you like then.

 

But avoid anymore committed relationships.

 

Thanks for replying. It is appreciated despite the the difference in opinion.

 

I did think it a little harsh or angry.

 

I did not state infidelity as a 'noble calling' nor call on similar for emotional effect in my words.

 

I feel that many BSs on LS believe that the WS is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

 

I am a WS who caused pain which I hate to think about.

 

But I do not feel I was wrong. Because I loved him. And there is a whole lot of stuff to deal with now, which I believe is good for my H and me.

 

And if in all honesty my H understood my connection with my xAP, he would not mind. And I would like to feel I could feel the same.

 

But my H doesn't understand. Understandably!

 

It is more than the prosaic. I am the one that sickens BSs who hate the idea of a soul connection.

 

After many months examining whether I may be wrong about that, I feel my experience of a soul connection with my xAP was true.

 

I don't wish to challenge, except where that increases understanding.

 

I used to worry that I was insane.

 

I loved that man, and our circxumstances made that hard.

 

I think I am supposed to say at this point 1 1/2 yrs post DDay that I'm all happy with my H. In truth I still love my xMOM and I don't mind admitting it.

 

And it was a long road. I listened.

[wheelwright]

The only reason that conflict exists between "loving feelings" and "cultural morals" is when you deliberately, intentionally, willfully engage in activities that are outside of those morals.

 

It's a CHOICE. And that conflict is a consequence of that choice.

 

 

Mostly Owl, I find you wise.

 

Above gets me though. I feel like I am communicating with someone who sees that cultural morals are not the things that should guide us.

 

I agree about the choice you talk about, but not your moral weighting.

[U2RockZz]

I thought that if my BF wanted another he was within his rights even if it hurt.

 

Because I wanted his love only if it flew in the face of cultural morals.

 

I only wanted his love if it meant everything.

 

Perhaps I was naive?

 

 

seems to be a imaginary scenario created to fit your situation and to start something out of nothing......so you are saying ,your H should have allowed you to walk all over him if he truly loved you....then why don't you show all your posts to your H....probably you will find an answer

[U2RockZz]

But some Rs work on the basis that such deception is to be overlooked so both partners can seek what they need/want and still come home to security. My friends are doing this to some success!

 

They want to grow old together.

 

I don't understand it myself. But I know my H's faithfulness only means something so long as he wants to be faithful.

 

 

so,you wanted to be in a R just for security....but all you wanted to do is cheat on them until you become no longer desired by others ....

 

 

so why are you denying this to your H....just provide him more money and don't ask for alimony....provide him better access for kids....he will feel really so secured that he doesn't care what you do/don't any longer....