let me play a violin for the cheater

[YellowShark]

You're right it is a threadjack. My apologies to the OP.

 

I was just so disgusted by the story you posted. At least you have planted the seed of doubt in the BW's mind. There is no way she can't at least wonder what is the real reason why you and your xW are no longer together.

 

You were disgusted? HA! Just teasing! Ya, it was pretty sick all around. Still is, considering they are all close good friends who to-this-day act like nothing ever happened... so I guess after 7 years I just went nuts.. made up a story... and moved away. Shows you how powerful denial and gaslighting can really be.

 

I disagree with this to a certain extent. My GF didn't intend on cheating , when she met me. There was no pre-meditation.

 

She may not have committed to having an affair initially, but she did eventually. Her husband didn't force her to "trip and fall onto your penis." And I'm sure she kept it a secret from her husband.

 

But BS'S aren't always saints or victims, either. You can't expect loyalty from a person that you misuse or neglect.

 

We definitely agree there. It's never black and white. Sometimes people have really awful marriages/relationships and a BS can push a WS away. But the act of having an affair lays at the feet of the WS, not the BS. The WS's answer to 1+1 is potato, ...instead of "2" which is divorce/separation or counseling.

Edited November 12, 2010 by YellowShark

[YellowShark]

To me, that statement applies to most of us, most of the time. Yes, we "know" at a basic level what we are doing - but usually, there is so much more that we don't realize. We don't see the pain we are creating for ourselves and everyone around us. We don't understand why we should care about other people, even strangers we don't know. We don't see the long-term ramifications of our actions. We don't see the lasting impact of our thoughtless or selfish behavior. We just don't see "the big picture.

 

I agree, too many young people lack empathy these days. In the Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, YouTube world, it's all me...me...me.

 

But I feel by your late 20's early 30's you have to *know* infidelity is one of the best ways to screw up your relationship. It's no state secret. It's universally frowned upon in most societies. So WSs shouldn't expect a ton of sympathy on most message boards outside of OM/OW-themed sections.

 

After all, who would a majority of people sympathise with more? Jesse James or Sandra Bullock? The WS or the BS?

 

IMHO WSs who come to any online message board just have to own it, and take the good with the bad posts. That's the impact of their "thoughtless or selfish behavior."

[U2RockZz]

people cheat cuz they can....there is no logic to it....or probably a logic tht is too complex for normal human brain.....i still don't understand why my fiance cheated on me...instead she could have told me "hey azzh()le i don't love you but i love your money"....it could have saved my time/money....and you wonder why people bash you

[Fieldsofgold]

I agree, too many young people lack empathy these days. In the Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, YouTube world, it's all me...me...me.

 

But I feel by your late 20's early 30's you have to *know* infidelity is one of the best ways to screw up your relationship. It's no state secret. It's universally frowned upon in most societies. So WSs shouldn't expect a ton of sympathy on most message boards outside of OM/OW-themed sections.

 

After all, who would a majority of people sympathise with more? Jesse James or Sandra Bullock? The WS or the BS?

 

IMHO WSs who come to any online message board just have to own it, and take the good with the bad posts. That's the impact of their "thoughtless or selfish behavior."

 

Oh, well, here's the problem - we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about having compassion for (single) OW/OM, while you're talking about WS's. Two completely different things!

 

Yeah, WS's should be shot at sunrise! I'll load the weapons. Heck, why wait til sunrise?

 

Kidding - but of course, as a BS myself, it is harder to have compassion for a current, active, "unapologetic" WS. Still, I would have compassion for anyone who jumped in front of a speeding train, but certainly more compassion for their victims.

 

Yes, I do even have compassion for Jesse James. He wrecked his life, he wrecked others' lives. So, yes, I have enough compassion for him to hope that he learns and grows and becomes a better person.

 

Likewise, I have forgiven my xH, who cheated and physically abused and gaslighted me til I was sure I was crazy, and then married his OW. (eventually, ALL of them!) I have compassion for him. Not a heartwarming tenderness kind of compassion - more of a "gosh, I really hate to see anyone burn in Hell like he's going to. I wish he'd change his ways and become a decent person" kind of compassion.

 

And over the years, I have seen the hell he's created for himself - children who hate him, step-children who hate him, women who hate him, husbands who hate him. I'm told he drives a different way home from work every day because he's afraid someone's gunning for him, and he knows he deserves it. Yeah, I do have a degree of compassion for him.

 

It took me 10 years, and I gradually became able to forgive him and have compassion for him when I realized how bad it was for ME to hold onto unforgiveness. "Unforgiveness is a poison you drink, and wait for the other person to die." (I believe when you truly forgive a person, you will have some level of compassion for them.)

 

I do totally agree that when people come to these boards flaunting what they have done, with pride, they should not be surprised when people tell them how it is - and that might actually be the most helpful thing for them, even though they don't like it.

[YellowShark]

Oh, well, here's the problem - we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about having compassion for (single) OW/OM, while you're talking about WS's. Two completely different things!

 

Yes... I was referring to married OM/OW. Such as in my case. My EX's affair partner was married. Single OM/OW are a bit different, unless they know up front their AP is married.

 

It took me 10 years, and I gradually became able to forgive him and have compassion for him when I realized how bad it was for ME to hold onto unforgiveness. "Unforgiveness is a poison you drink, and wait for the other person to die." (I believe when you truly forgive a person, you will have some level of compassion for them.)

 

I will show compassion on the day when my EX shows remorse or compassion for what she did. I think that is only fair. Otherwise I am just enabling her. I don't let it eat me up inside, it's just a yellow post-it note stuck on my brain - "forgive EX when she finally shows compassion and remorse."

[Dexter Morgan]

This IS an Opinion and Support forum. People have different opinions about what constitutes support. Participation here IS voluntary. When people post, even if it is offensive to ME, it may still be their idea of helpful support. I try to keep that in mind.

 

Sometimes, it in fact IS helpful, even when it might not be what I want to hear.

 

If I think it is not helpful, I have the right to ignore it.

 

It IS interesting to me when someone takes any disagreeing post as a personal attack. Or thinks every post is about them personally. The poster gets reported. Then said reporter goes on throughout that same post, flaming and attacking everyone else to an amazing magnitude. I always find that interesting.

 

How do they justify that? I don't know - I guess it is the same mentality that allows someone to ruin other people's lives IRL with an affair, and then complain when an anonymous person on a public forum is not complimentary.

 

(Hopefully that poster will not think I am talking about them, and report me - again! LOL!)

 

About some of the other posts here - I agree that we don't choose who we are attracted to. BUT I do believe with all my heart that we can choose to control what we do with that attraction, IF we are sufficiently motivated to do so. I really like what an earlier poster said - if we found out our love interest was a serial killer, serial rapist, child abuser, animal abuser, or some other such perverse thing - we'd probably get over them in a hurry. (too bad we don't see 'married' as one of those "off-limits" things.) And if later on, the WS throws the AP under the bus, the AP will have to control their feelings and move on. Even after a full-blown affair. My point being that the AP's can, and most likely will be, gotten over - sooner or later. Why not do it at the beginning, when it is easier, and save everyone a lot of pain.

 

Why not? Because I believe that ethics are learned. We are not just born ethical or unethical. Some people were fortunate to have had good teaching/role models growing up, and learned good ethics at an early age. Those people were able to avoid some of the pitfalls that others did not. Some people learned ethics after they were older - sometimes from hard personal experience - maybe their own, or from observing someone else. For this reason, I DO NOT believe at all that cheaters are "hopeless." Yes, there may or may not be greater risks, but I totally believe people can have life-changing experiences and come out the other side as totally different people. Or they may go through a slow personal learning and growth process. But I know that people can and do completely change and transform. (If I had believed people could not change, I'd have shot myself years ago.)

 

When an OM/OW comes here in pain, usually my heart goes out to them, especially if they are young and less experienced. Doesn't mean I agree with their choices at all, doesn't mean they were not accountable for what happened to them. Doesn't mean that I don't feel equal or greater compassion for the BS and others hurt by them, just means that I do have compassion for the hurt they are going through, and the place they are in, in their life. I believe we all reap what we sow, and I have compassion for the pain they have and will bring on themselves, or will allow others to inflict on them. And I dearly wish I could do something or say something to help them see their way through it. Even the ones who are so frustrating and offensive (and report me) - if at some point they came here broken-hearted and needed support, I would still have compassion. (No, I'm still not talking about you, so don't report me!)

 

One day years ago, I went to the local neighborhood store and found my good friend and neighbor (the clerk) and her 12 y/o daughter, dead on the floor from point-blank shotgun blasts. The first person there after the crime, and needless to say, it was a terrible experience. Everyone, myself included, was up in arms, wanted justice -- the death penalty -- for the killers. Several days after the teenage boys were arrested, I was required to go to the sheriff to give additional information. While I was there, I saw the boys, and the boys' families. Due to circumstances, I sat across the room from them for a lengthy period of time. No one realized I was associated with the crime. I watched them, listened to them talk. I realized their lives were just as destroyed as my friends'. The boys, the killers, whether they got the death penalty or not - their lives were destroyed almost before they'd even begun to live. I realized that no matter the verdict - no one would "win." I thought of the words of Jesus: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

To me, that statement applies to most of us, most of the time. Yes, we "know" at a basic level what we are doing - but usually, there is so much more that we don't realize. We don't see the pain we are creating for ourselves and everyone around us. We don't understand why we should care about other people, even strangers we don't know. We don't see the long-term ramifications of our actions. We don't see the lasting impact of our thoughtless or selfish behavior. We just don't see "the big picture." We don't REALLY "know" what we are doing. And no matter what side we are on, even when we think we have "won," there really are no winners.

 

So while I do sometimes get so very frustrated and aggravated, and sometimes disgusted - I do have compassion and a desire to help, if I can, those who have gotten themselves in a painful place.

 

well said

 

but what does all that have to do with people hurting others, but get all offended when someone calls them on their bs?

 

the question is to people like that, "how can you in good conscience get all offended, when your real life actions are doing real emotional damage and pain to someone in the real world?"

[Fieldsofgold]

well said

 

but what does all that have to do with people hurting others, but get all offended when someone calls them on their bs?

 

the question is to people like that, "how can you in good conscience get all offended, when your real life actions are doing real emotional damage and pain to someone in the real world?"

 

Thank you.

 

I can't begin to answer your question, because I don't do affairs. But I have certainly been reported enough!

 

I think most of the time, particularly in the case of single OM/OW, they don't realize the hurt they are inflicting on the BS, at least not for a while. The BS is not real to them, or the WS paints them to be an ogre who deserves it all and more. (that's what my xH did to me with his OW.) Since the reality of the BS's pain is not real to them, but their pain IS VERY real, they may feel THEY are being doubly hurt - first by the WS, then by posters on LS who confront them, maybe for the first time, with the other side of the affair coin.

 

Some people may get offended because they have a conscience that bothers them, but they don't want to face it or be confronted with the guilt of their actions.

 

I think there are some people who have an inaccurate sense of entitlement; they feel they deserve whatever they want, and don't deserve whatever they don't want.

 

And then there is probably the occasional AP who doesn't want to be bested in a debate, and complains to have the BS's posts removed, or neutralized by the delay of being moderated. Just guessin'

[BB07]

What I love about JustJoe's post is this comment shows this almost unlimited capacity of a person with a "cheater's mentality" to filter reality to an almost mind boggling degree.

 

Obviously everyone doesn't filter reality the same way you do and who are you to say that you know more about JustJoe's situation than he does?

[pureinheart]

Thank you.

 

I can't begin to answer your question, because I don't do affairs. But I have certainly been reported enough!

 

I think most of the time, particularly in the case of single OM/OW, they don't realize the hurt they are inflicting on the BS, at least not for a while. The BS is not real to them, or the WS paints them to be an ogre who deserves it all and more. (that's what my xH did to me with his OW.) Since the reality of the BS's pain is not real to them, but their pain IS VERY real, they may feel THEY are being doubly hurt - first by the WS, then by posters on LS who confront them, maybe for the first time, with the other side of the affair coin.

 

Some people may get offended because they have a conscience that bothers them, but they don't want to face it or be confronted with the guilt of their actions.

 

I think there are some people who have an inaccurate sense of entitlement; they feel they deserve whatever they want, and don't deserve whatever they don't want.

 

And then there is probably the occasional AP who doesn't want to be bested in a debate, and complains to have the BS's posts removed, or neutralized by the delay of being moderated. Just guessin'

 

Hi FOG, in bold are referring to being reported on LS? If you are, I am a bit surprised as I have not known you to say anything uncool...wow, that one is a shocker to me.

[pureinheart]

This IS an Opinion and Support forum. People have different opinions about what constitutes support. Participation here IS voluntary. When people post, even if it is offensive to ME, it may still be their idea of helpful support. I try to keep that in mind.

 

Sometimes, it in fact IS helpful, even when it might not be what I want to hear.

 

If I think it is not helpful, I have the right to ignore it.

 

It IS interesting to me when someone takes any disagreeing post as a personal attack. Or thinks every post is about them personally. The poster gets reported. Then said reporter goes on throughout that same post, flaming and attacking everyone else to an amazing magnitude. I always find that interesting.

 

How do they justify that? I don't know - I guess it is the same mentality that allows someone to ruin other people's lives IRL with an affair, and then complain when an anonymous person on a public forum is not complimentary.

 

(Hopefully that poster will not think I am talking about them, and report me - again! LOL!)

 

About some of the other posts here - I agree that we don't choose who we are attracted to. BUT I do believe with all my heart that we can choose to control what we do with that attraction, IF we are sufficiently motivated to do so. I really like what an earlier poster said - if we found out our love interest was a serial killer, serial rapist, child abuser, animal abuser, or some other such perverse thing - we'd probably get over them in a hurry. (too bad we don't see 'married' as one of those "off-limits" things.) And if later on, the WS throws the AP under the bus, the AP will have to control their feelings and move on. Even after a full-blown affair. My point being that the AP's can, and most likely will be, gotten over - sooner or later. Why not do it at the beginning, when it is easier, and save everyone a lot of pain.

 

Why not? Because I believe that ethics are learned. We are not just born ethical or unethical. Some people were fortunate to have had good teaching/role models growing up, and learned good ethics at an early age. Those people were able to avoid some of the pitfalls that others did not. Some people learned ethics after they were older - sometimes from hard personal experience - maybe their own, or from observing someone else. For this reason, I DO NOT believe at all that cheaters are "hopeless." Yes, there may or may not be greater risks, but I totally believe people can have life-changing experiences and come out the other side as totally different people. Or they may go through a slow personal learning and growth process. But I know that people can and do completely change and transform. (If I had believed people could not change, I'd have shot myself years ago.)

 

When an OM/OW comes here in pain, usually my heart goes out to them, especially if they are young and less experienced. Doesn't mean I agree with their choices at all, doesn't mean they were not accountable for what happened to them. Doesn't mean that I don't feel equal or greater compassion for the BS and others hurt by them, just means that I do have compassion for the hurt they are going through, and the place they are in, in their life. I believe we all reap what we sow, and I have compassion for the pain they have and will bring on themselves, or will allow others to inflict on them. And I dearly wish I could do something or say something to help them see their way through it. Even the ones who are so frustrating and offensive (and report me) - if at some point they came here broken-hearted and needed support, I would still have compassion. (No, I'm still not talking about you, so don't report me!)

 

One day years ago, I went to the local neighborhood store and found my good friend and neighbor (the clerk) and her 12 y/o daughter, dead on the floor from point-blank shotgun blasts. The first person there after the crime, and needless to say, it was a terrible experience. Everyone, myself included, was up in arms, wanted justice -- the death penalty -- for the killers. Several days after the teenage boys were arrested, I was required to go to the sheriff to give additional information. While I was there, I saw the boys, and the boys' families. Due to circumstances, I sat across the room from them for a lengthy period of time. No one realized I was associated with the crime. I watched them, listened to them talk. I realized their lives were just as destroyed as my friends'. The boys, the killers, whether they got the death penalty or not - their lives were destroyed almost before they'd even begun to live. I realized that no matter the verdict - no one would "win." I thought of the words of Jesus: "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

 

To me, that statement applies to most of us, most of the time. Yes, we "know" at a basic level what we are doing - but usually, there is so much more that we don't realize. We don't see the pain we are creating for ourselves and everyone around us. We don't understand why we should care about other people, even strangers we don't know. We don't see the long-term ramifications of our actions. We don't see the lasting impact of our thoughtless or selfish behavior. We just don't see "the big picture." We don't REALLY "know" what we are doing. And no matter what side we are on, even when we think we have "won," there really are no winners.

 

So while I do sometimes get so very frustrated and aggravated, and sometimes disgusted - I do have compassion and a desire to help, if I can, those who have gotten themselves in a painful place.

 

This is way powerful...and I am so sorry for all of you involved in this ....just so sorry...

[JustJoe]

well said

 

but what does all that have to do with people hurting others, but get all offended when someone calls them on their bs?

 

the question is to people like that, "how can you in good conscience get all offended, when your real life actions are doing real emotional damage and pain to someone in the real world?"

But aren't you presupposing that the BS gives a sh*t? My GF'S ex didn't seem to care too much, as long as she was good looking "arm candy", and helped him politically. He actually told her once that he didn't care as long as it was done in secret. You see, not all marriages are made in heaven, some are made on Wall ST. and others at the Statehouse. You and I sometimes disagree, Dex, but I know that you have several valid points , but you have a preconception about marriage that isn't necessarily true in every case.

[JustJoe]

So, enemy, you call me a liar and my GF a manipulating sl*t, and I have the problem? You know neither of us, you know nothing about the relationship, or her marriage , or her husband, or anything at all, yet you feel free to criticize ? You need to get a life, of your very own, and stop thread-jacking somebody else"s. Sorry Dex, but I 'm not going to take this crap.

[JustJoe]

As far as my life being in a "mess", you know this how?

[BB07]

BB07 is just like you only a different gender, JustJoe. A former long term OP, to the best of my knowledge. Obviously a person whose head is in the same place as yours, is going to give you mutual support.

 

Perhaps it would be best if you kept your assumptions to yourself because it's clear you don't know have your facts straight.

About the only thing you excel at is taking personal swipes at people you don't know instead of having a discussion or stating your opinion. This is why I defended JustJoe. Now I'm in your cross-hairs........fire away but I most likely won't bother with replying.

[JustJoe]

theMENemy=troll.

[bentnotbroken]

As the question is directed to OM/OW, I'm willing to give my POV.

 

First of all people don't choose who they fall in love with. I know it sounds silly to get involved with someone who is not available but it happens in a way that you loose control of your judgment and cool reasoning. It always starts with emotional involvement and it goes on physical too. Once you are in, you are blinded with passion and you don't think about the situation.

 

The WS role is crucial in the sense that as long as the WS shows love and attachment, the WS "validates" the actions of both, not to mention the WS who complain or say they don't love their spouses anymore which is another confirmation in OM's mind that he is not breaking a relationship which is already broken.

 

In OM's mind, he deserves this woman as she has emotionally chosen him upon her husband (whether it is true or not). A woman who cheats, has emotionally dumped her H even if she goes on living with him married.

 

All this perspective, VALIDATION (of his actions) and emotional comfort, lead the OM to think that he is not doing something wrong, that he can have this woman in his life and share his life with her (talking about single OMs)

 

I know that for you a "good" OM would tell the WS : "Look, I love you but you are doing something wrong to your H. Go back to him and don't contact me again" but the world we live in is not so perfect. People put their feelings and needs upon someone else's needs, especially if they are comforted in their actions.

 

Bottom-line, not the OM, nor the A would exist unless WS validation.

 

Most of OM/OW who come on the board to get support, is because their pain is real and they have not used the MW/MM for fun but because they were truly in love and had the illusion of a happy ending. If it was for fun, no one would waste his time to get support once the A ended.

 

Personally, I am not looking for the BSs empathy towards my experience but I understand the pain and the resentment of any BS.

 

 

That's bull too. If you don't loose that cool reasoning in every aspect it means you can control your emotions. One just chooses not to.

[bentnotbroken]

I agree, but IF the BS doesn't understand the POV of the cheater or OM/OW, then it is likely to happen again, because we both know that it takes two to make a bad marriage as well as a good one. Dexter solves his problems by blanket condemnation of ALL disloyal partners, everywhere, and doesn't consider the other possibilities, that maybe the BS was an abuser, or alcoholic, or refuses sex to the WS, ETC. Frankly there are as many reasons to cheat as there are reasons to marry , in the first place.

 

 

There are never reasons to cheat. One should never base their bad behavior on the playground mentality of they did it first. If that is the way one goes about living life(and we know a lot of people do, not just cheaters) it says more about the person who used such a poor reaction choice to the initial action.

[JustJoe]

There are never reasons to cheat. One should never base their bad behavior on the playground mentality of they did it first. If that is the way one goes about living life(and we know a lot of people do, not just cheaters) it says more about the person who used such a poor reaction choice to the initial action.

Both I and my GF agree with you, BNB. She realizes that she should have divorced him long ago. Before she even met me. Her mindset was way different back then.

[pureinheart]

Both I and my GF agree with you, BNB. She realizes that she should have divorced him long ago. Before she even met me. Her mindset was way different back then.

 

Sometimes we are in undesireable situations and just don't know what to do...we grow...we learn. That's the beauty of being human:)

[JustJoe]

Sometimes we are in undesireable situations and just don't know what to do...we grow...we learn. That's the beauty of being human:)

You are a sweetheart, I do know that.

[worlybear]

well said

 

but what does all that have to do with people hurting others, but get all offended when someone calls them on their bs?

 

the question is to people like that, "how can you in good conscience get all offended, when your real life actions are doing real emotional damage and pain to someone in the real world?"

Well said Dexter! I whole-heartedly agree with you. My STBXH went through the usual crap of saying- "we didn't mean it, it just happened" and then was very taken aback when I DIDN'T reply with- "that's o.k. I understand." He thought I was very unreasonable!

At the time we all worked in the same small school together- he honestly thought we'd carry on !!!

ONCE A CHEATER- ALWAYS A CHEATER.

Honesty is fundamental to a relationship.

[East7]

As the question is directed to OM/OW, I'm willing to give my POV.

 

First of all people don't choose who they fall in love with. I know it sounds silly to get involved with someone who is not available but it happens in a way that you loose control of your judgment and cool reasoning. It always starts with emotional involvement and it goes on physical too. Once you are in, you are blinded with passion and you don't think about the situation.

That's bull too. If you don't loose that cool reasoning in every aspect it means you can control your emotions. One just chooses not to.

 

Wow BNB, you have the right to think that I'm saying total bull*** but writing it on the post makes you look so cheap and inelegant !

I was only giving an OM's perspective and experience, I was not saying it is right or wrong. It is so easy to judge others when you have not experienced that situation.

[bentnotbroken]

Wow BNB, you have the right to think that I'm saying total bull*** but writing it on the post makes you look so cheap and inelegant !

I was only giving an OM's perspective and experience, I was not saying it is right or wrong. It is so easy to judge others when you have not experienced that situation.

 

 

My post:

That's bull too. If you don't loose that cool reasoning in every aspect it means you can control your emotions. One just chooses not to.

 

 

I did not use the words you attributed to me. Though I have in the past and I am sure I will again As far as me looking cheap..that might be the way that others view you and your partner:rolleyes: and inelegant...I agree 100%. I strive to be me, the best me I can be and if calling bull on something I see as bull, bull will be the term I will use to describe the bull. :lmao:

[YellowShark]

I whole-heartedly agree with you. My STBXH went through the usual crap of saying- "we didn't mean it, it just happened" and then was very taken aback when I DIDN'T reply with- "that's o.k. I understand." He thought I was very unreasonable!

 

Ya. Isn't that a kicker? I mean really "it just happened that I fell into her vagina.. and she gave me head...I tripped and didn't mean it!"

 

ONCE A CHEATER- ALWAYS A CHEATER.

 

I take a different path. You get one strike and if you take ownership and are really repentant then you get another chance. So IMHO once a cheater not always a cheater, twice a cheater, ALWAYS a cheater.

 

Honesty is fundamental to a relationship.

 

Very true. Whether it is business or love trust is the core of any relationship. When it is broken that relationship is not the same relationship you once had. That is why the person who breaks the trust in a relationship has to take 100% ownership for what they did, rather than place the blame elsewhere.

[JustJoe]

Yellowshark, I do believe that the WS is responsible for the affair, but what bothers me is the Blanket forgiveness granted to all BS'S. People say that the WS should end the marriage, instead of cheat.....well, the wife-beater should end the marriage before he uses his wife as a punching bag. It take two people to make a marriage, good or bad. Infidelity is certainly no worse than domestic violence, or pattern neglect. To grant martyr status to all BS's pretty much insures that cheating will continue for the foreseeable future. To repair a broken marriage both parties should be willing to admit culpability for the issues that caused the marriage to go bad, in the first place.