this is depressing

[northern_sky]

I'm not relying on the substance of your threads. I'm relying about your own descriptions of your behavior, your own descriptions of your personality, and your own descriptions of what others have said about your personality. This is the first time EVER that you've used the word "feisty" to describe yourself.

 

But I stand by feistiness and confidence being related, as there's a certain level of assertiveness required. So if you think you're feisty, if others think you're feisty, then you're likely more confident than you give yourself credit for.

 

I'm actually very assertive, even with people I don't know well. I've always been that way. I've always been very direct about my opinions and wants with others. In classes, I tend to be a vocal participant.

 

I can be confident, it really depends on how comfortable I feel. If I'm in my element, I tend to be confident. Same with being around people I know well.

[Star Gazer]

I'm actually very assertive, even with people I don't know well. I've always been that way. I've always been very direct about my opinions and wants with others. In classes, I tend to be a vocal participant.

 

I can be confident, it really depends on how comfortable I feel. If I'm in my element, I tend to be confident. Same with being around people I know well.

 

Why do you think this changes around a guy? You don't know all the people in your classes well, right? Is it because you don't feel "in your element" when with a guy? Why do you think that is? Could it be because they're the wrong guy?

 

Food for thought.

[northern_sky]

So he got back to me. More of same old. Apologized for not responding sooner, explained he was away and swamped with emails. Said he is glad I am feeling more comfortable (?) and wants to keep seeing me. Said given that he's not looking for a committed relationship with anyone at the moment, he probably *shouldn't* be dating, but that's not realistic. And he wants to see me again soon. Said he is completely swamped this week and weekend, but next week is more open.

 

Eh...

[Mme. Chaucer]

Oh, boy. Let the cycle resume.

 

Tell me. When do you think you will come to a point in your life where YOU will stop repeating the exact same patterns of behavior and expecting a different outcome?

 

Since I became interested in one of your plights here a few months ago, I read through your past threads. The consistency of the patterns is truly amazing. The outcome of the relationships, even the characterizations of the guys involved could pretty much be interchangeable.

 

Have you read through them yourself lately? I ask because seeing your own repetitive patterns, as written by yourself, might help you do something different sometime. It's all on you. Rereading my own journals did that for me.

[northern_sky]

Oh, boy. Let the cycle resume.

 

Tell me. When do you think you will come to a point in your life where YOU will stop repeating the exact same patterns of behavior and expecting a different outcome?

 

Since I became interested in one of your plights here a few months ago, I read through your past threads. The consistency of the patterns is truly amazing. The outcome of the relationships, even the characterizations of the guys involved could pretty much be interchangeable.

 

Have you read through them yourself lately? I ask because seeing your own repetitive patterns, as written by yourself, might help you do something different sometime. It's all on you. Rereading my own journals did that for me.

 

Hey, hey. I didn't say I was going to see him again!

 

I actually would be interested to hear your take on my patterns and the outcomes of my relationships, including the characterizations of the guys involved.I am aware of some of my self defeating behaviors, but it would be interesting to hear it from an outsider's perspective.

[northern_sky]

I am not satisfied with his response -- although it was highly unlikely that I would have gotten the response I was looking for. I especially don't like what he said about how he shouldn't be dating but he's going to anyway. I also feel like this thing about him being busy all the time is BS that he uses to avoid social interaction. I have seen him make the same excuses to other people. Yes, he's a workaholic, but based on what he's told me about his job, he has more free time than he lets on. My roommate, the one who is girlfriend's with his BFF, even said she would never date him because she thinks he would make a terrible boyfriend.

 

Here's the thing. I want to at least stay on good terms with him, so we can see each other in a group without it being super awkward. The opportunist in me also wants to keep him as a connection as I have no doubt he will be very successful in my industry and we're both moving to NY fairly soon.

 

So I'm not sure how to handle this here forward. I agree that I need to stop seeing him one on one.

[Star Gazer]

Hey, hey. I didn't say I was going to see him again!

 

I actually would be interested to hear your take on my patterns and the outcomes of my relationships, including the characterizations of the guys involved.I am aware of some of my self defeating behaviors, but it would be interesting to hear it from an outsider's perspective.

 

Well, there's one pattern that Kamille already pointed out for you: the way you describe each ex, and each relationship, as being soooooo special and unique as to almost have been born of a heavenly body. You ascribe a sort of "no one knows me/gets me/liked me/accepted me like he did, we had sooo much in common, such a great connection, unlike I've ever had before, and I'll never find it again!" thing to these guys you fall for. I think those feelings are normal, especially when handling a loss - regardless of how significant the relationship was.

 

But if you'd recognize this pattern, you'd realize that there are obviously other guys out there who you can feel that za za zoo for, and who will love and accept you as is.

[xpaperxcutx]

Hey, hey. I didn't say I was going to see him again!

 

I actually would be interested to hear your take on my patterns and the outcomes of my relationships, including the characterizations of the guys involved.I am aware of some of my self defeating behaviors, but it would be interesting to hear it from an outsider's perspective.

 

You tend to fall for men who are EU and when that is not enough, you tend to come on here and rehash little things that makes it seem like they're the " one" when all of it were just your emotions running the

show.

 

I was here when you had the drama with your first ex, and then the ex after that ( the one whom you fell out with due to your pregnancy/abortion issue).

 

All these are a pattern- the relationships you go through are certainly more rollercoaster rides than smooth sailing on a ship. Have you ever gone back to your threads and reread them?

 

 

 

I am not satisfied with his response -- although it was highly unlikely that I would have gotten the response I was looking for. I especially don't like what he said about how he shouldn't be dating but he's going to anyway. I also feel like this thing about him being busy all the time is BS that he uses to avoid social interaction. I have seen him make the same excuses to other people. Yes, he's a workaholic, but based on what he's told me about his job, he has more free time than he lets on. My roommate, the one who is girlfriend's with his BFF, even said she would never date him because she thinks he would make a terrible boyfriend.

 

Here's the thing. I want to at least stay on good terms with him, so we can see each other in a group without it being super awkward. The opportunist in me also wants to keep him as a connection as I have no doubt he will be very successful in my industry and we're both moving to NY fairly soon.

 

So I'm not sure how to handle this here forward. I agree that I need to stop seeing him one on one.

 

There you go again. Your inability to say enough is enough and to break off ties is your own downfall. Wasn't this the same with your ex, that you purposely asked to want to maintain some kind of contact even though he was adamant about not wanting to have anything to do you? This is what you are doing now. You don't see how destructive this is, to constantly " pursue" a guy even after all the emails, all the bad dates, etc.

 

I call BS if you're going to reply to with a I just want to remain friend statement. You cannot be friends with someone when you are clearly " in like " with this guy. Unless you truly think there's no chance the two of you will ever be together, and you have firmly drawn the lines between a friend and a lover ( and we all know a kiss and fooling around crosses that boundary).

 

Of course, his answer is unsatisfactory. You're making him rehash his original statement about not wanting a relationship. Really now, how many times do you expect him to write you until he decided to one day change his stance and say " yes, I want a relationship...'. You're staying with him out of hope, like blind faith, it is blind hope. So while you're secretly pining after him because you think you two share a " connection" you'll always be living a lie and pretending everything is okay, when they are not.

 

You'll always want more, and when you can't get it, you blame it on them for " stringing" you along.

[Untouchable_Fire]

You'll always want more, and when you can't get it, you blame it on them for " stringing" you along.

 

Very good analysis.

 

I would just like to add that part of what drives this behavior is that if she could take an EU man and change that... it would be a HUGE self esteem boost. Like winning the World Cup.

 

But when it doesn't work... not only does she blame them... but it leaves her feeling more worthless inside.

[northern_sky]

You tend to fall for men who are EU and when that is not enough, you tend to come on here and rehash little things that makes it seem like they're the " one" when all of it were just your emotions running the

show.

 

I was here when you had the drama with your first ex, and then the ex after that ( the one whom you fell out with due to your pregnancy/abortion issue).

 

All these are a pattern- the relationships you go through are certainly more rollercoaster rides than smooth sailing on a ship. Have you ever gone back to your threads and reread them?

 

 

 

 

 

There you go again. Your inability to say enough is enough and to break off ties is your own downfall. Wasn't this the same with your ex, that you purposely asked to want to maintain some kind of contact even though he was adamant about not wanting to have anything to do you? This is what you are doing now. You don't see how destructive this is, to constantly " pursue" a guy even after all the emails, all the bad dates, etc.

 

I call BS if you're going to reply to with a I just want to remain friend statement. You cannot be friends with someone when you are clearly " in like " with this guy. Unless you truly think there's no chance the two of you will ever be together, and you have firmly drawn the lines between a friend and a lover ( and we all know a kiss and fooling around crosses that boundary).

 

Of course, his answer is unsatisfactory. You're making him rehash his original statement about not wanting a relationship. Really now, how many times do you expect him to write you until he decided to one day change his stance and say " yes, I want a relationship...'. You're staying with him out of hope, like blind faith, it is blind hope. So while you're secretly pining after him because you think you two share a " connection" you'll always be living a lie and pretending everything is okay, when they are not.

 

You'll always want more, and when you can't get it, you blame it on them for " stringing" you along.

 

My most recent ex was NOT EU. IN fact, our relationship WAS smooth sailing up until the abortion, when things crashed and burned and he dumped me out of blue. If anything, he was far more into me than I was him when we were actually together, from day one. It was only after the relationship ended, that the tables turned.

 

Also, it's not like I'm chasing him down and he doesn't want to see me. This guy has done all the initiating of our two most recent dates/meetups. He suggested them, then confirmed them, then made a plan for what we did.

 

And I do believe he values spending time with me, even though he doesn't want a relationship. He wasn't even trying to be physical with me last time, so he clearly isn't trying to use me. I realize that despite all this he doesn't want a relationship, but I think you're mischaracterizing things by acting as if I'm chasing him down and making him see me.

 

I'd like to keep on good terms with him as an acquaintance, so that we can see each other in groups and things aren't painfully awkward. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[northern_sky]

Very good analysis.

 

I would just like to add that part of what drives this behavior is that if she could take an EU man and change that... it would be a HUGE self esteem boost. Like winning the World Cup.

 

But when it doesn't work... not only does she blame them... but it leaves her feeling more worthless inside.

 

I NEVER blamed him. Where do you get that? There were a couple of things he did that I thought were insensitive, but for the most part I think he's been honest and decent.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

 

I'd like to keep on good terms with him as an acquaintance, so that we can see each other in groups and things aren't painfully awkward. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

It's not unreasonable. It's normal, and probably is already the case, without requiring any discussion, revelation, dates, making out, refusing to make out, sex, refusing to have sex, explanations, apologies, drinking, meth, worry, dread, unprotected sex, sex with condoms, analysis, rehashing, etc. etc. etc.

 

How you keep on good terms as an acquaintance: when you see him, greet him pleasantly. If the situation you find yourselves in leads to a conversation with him, no need to avoid it. Maybe enjoy it!

 

It's simple, really. It just depends upon how you behave. How you CHOOSE to behave.

 

But I think you're being disingenuous and that you really want a lot more from him than "good terms as an acquaintance." You are apt to keep picking at this scab until it bleeds and bleeds again until you find another one, unless you have had a mind blowing epiphany and haven't shared it here.

[Mme. Chaucer]

 

I actually would be interested to hear your take on my patterns and the outcomes of my relationships, including the characterizations of the guys involved.I am aware of some of my self defeating behaviors, but it would be interesting to hear it from an outsider's perspective.

 

I think you will understand my take if you want to do your work, which would include absolute accountability for your own behavior. To be honest - maybe brutally - I think a lot of what's going on with you includes a need for attention and drama that cannot be fulfilled. You USE people and relationships to try to fill it, and you are continually thwarted.

 

Sometimes I feel like an enabler for engaging with you here at all, but I still do it.

 

The truth is that I used to behave somewhat like you do. Now I can acknowledge that I was one of the most emotionally manipulative people I've ever known.

 

Fortunately for me (truly, fortunate) I ended up addicted to drugs and had to face all of my own patterns and self defeating behavior (which was also bad to other people, unbeknownst to me at the time ... I was quite the tragic and flamboyant victim) in order to recover from that. In the process I worked on my own self.

 

I DO NOT wish for you to have to go through anything like that to get right with YOURSELF.

 

A lot is here in black and white. If you want to look honestly at your patterns, take the whole LS history with you to your therapist. If you are bamboozling your therapist, admit it to yourself and get another one; maybe one who works with BPD.

[northern_sky]

I think you will understand my take if you want to do your work, which would include absolute accountability for your own behavior. To be honest - maybe brutally - I think a lot of what's going on with you includes a need for attention and drama that cannot be fulfilled. You USE people and relationships to try to fill it, and you are continually thwarted.

 

Sometimes I feel like an enabler for engaging with you here at all, but I still do it.

 

The truth is that I used to behave somewhat like you do. Now I can acknowledge that I was one of the most emotionally manipulative people I've ever known.

 

Fortunately for me (truly, fortunate) I ended up addicted to drugs and had to face all of my own patterns and self defeating behavior (which was also bad to other people, unbeknownst to me at the time ... I was quite the tragic and flamboyant victim) in order to recover from that. In the process I worked on my own self.

 

I DO NOT wish for you to have to go through anything like that to get right with YOURSELF.

 

A lot is here in black and white. If you want to look honestly at your patterns, take the whole LS history with you to your therapist. If you are bamboozling your therapist, admit it to yourself and get another one; maybe one who works with BPD.

 

Well, I'm glad you're still willing to give me advice despite your frustration.

 

I think there is a lot of insight here. I can be manipulative, according to other people, although a lot of the time I'm not conscious I'm doing it when somebody calls me on it.

 

This is something I need to become more aware of.

 

Believe it or not, I have improved a lot. As a teenager, early twenty-something I was far more selfish and willing to use people. I look back on some of the things I did then and cringe. That's not to say I was all bad. I could be very caring and generous.

 

I do think I used my ex ex, and later he used me. I don't know how much of my thread history you've read, but I think I matured a great deal between that three year relationship and my most recent relationship that ended pretty brutally over the spring.

 

On the other hand, I don't feel that I used my ex. I did generally care about him a great deal, and I feel like I was genuinely loving to him. I probably did take at times more than I should have, but overall I think I treated him well...and he acknowledged that too. Even during and after the breakup he kept saying what a good girlfriend I was and how sweet I was. He just couldn't deal with my anxiety, or so he claims.

 

I guess I don't see the common thread between my relationship with him and my relationship with my ex ex and my more recent fling with J. What do you think all these guys and my interactions with them have in common?

[Ariadne]

What do you think all these guys and my interactions with them have in common?

 

That they were in your line of sight.

 

The moment you don't have any drama in your life you get bored and make drama with anything.

 

Be it dating the roommate's friend, emailing the roommate of the ex, ex teacher reproach, post pictures online, etc.

 

Good assessment Mme. Chaucer.

[Ariadne]

What do you think all these guys and my interactions with them have in common?

 

Oh,

 

And that they were all incredibly smart, creative, deep, reflective, etc.

 

Interactions: slight interest, drama, indifference.

[OceanGirl]

I think you will understand my take if you want to do your work, which would include absolute accountability for your own behavior. To be honest - maybe brutally - I think a lot of what's going on with you includes a need for attention and drama that cannot be fulfilled. You USE people and relationships to try to fill it, and you are continually thwarted.

 

Sometimes I feel like an enabler for engaging with you here at all, but I still do it.

 

The truth is that I used to behave somewhat like you do. Now I can acknowledge that I was one of the most emotionally manipulative people I've ever known.

 

Fortunately for me (truly, fortunate) I ended up addicted to drugs and had to face all of my own patterns and self defeating behavior (which was also bad to other people, unbeknownst to me at the time ... I was quite the tragic and flamboyant victim) in order to recover from that. In the process I worked on my own self.

 

I DO NOT wish for you to have to go through anything like that to get right with YOURSELF.

 

A lot is here in black and white. If you want to look honestly at your patterns, take the whole LS history with you to your therapist. If you are bamboozling your therapist, admit it to yourself and get another one; maybe one who works with BPD.

 

I know that you have followed my threads and as much as it pains me to admit it, you have some good insights. So I am curious: do you think that I am emotionally manipulative as well?

[welikeincrowds]

I know that you have followed my threads and as much as it pains me to admit it, you have some good insights. So I am curious: do you think that I am emotionally manipulative as well?

 

Man, if only LS offered some kind of system where you could speak to someone privately about specific personal matters.

[OceanGirl]

Man, if only LS offered some kind of system where you could speak to someone privately about specific personal matters.

 

 

Ha ha ha. I don't think a simple question like this, related to the topic hurts. I am not going to go past one post exchange and ruin my friend's thread.

 

P.S. you are too smart for your own good

[Kamille]

What do you think all these guys and my interactions with them have in common?

 

I think if you are manipulative it's because you immediately prioritize trying to get the men you like to be madly in love with you, at all cost. What Mme Chaucer describes as emotional manipulation, I think of as a misguided attempt at control. You try to control what these guys think about you. The many times you decide to do something, see it backfires and then send an apology or try to backpedal are examples of this. You especially get in that mode when they pull away. I often get the impression you don't necessarily do things because that's what you want to do, but because you think that's what will land you the man. I think in your desire to be loved, you've lost sight of your core values.

 

The sooner you stop trying to manipulate what people think about you, the easier it will be for you to be genuine with people.

[Ariadne]

So I am curious: do you think that I am emotionally manipulative as well?

 

I'll take a shot at that.

 

No. Shadow does it because she craves the attention and needs it. It's all about me me me.

 

In your case it's more like you want to be popular. If anything you want to draw people away and not bother with them.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I know that you have followed my threads and as much as it pains me to admit it, you have some good insights. So I am curious: do you think that I am emotionally manipulative as well?

 

OG, I do. Truly and sincerely, I am not saying this as any kind of a jab at you. If you read my past contributions to your threads, I've spelled out my perspective on this pretty clearly.

 

When you (and Northern) get close to a guy ... seems that immediately your whole MO becomes "how to hook him." There is no room allowed for who that guy really is, and what potential the two of you might actually have to grow something between you. You both become all about how to maneuver the other person into the position, in relation to you, where you want them to be. You try to corner him, (in many ways, including setting him up to absolutely fail) and if it does not work, he is "bad." It NEVER works.

 

Kamille wrote:

 

I think if you are manipulative it's because you immediately prioritize trying to get the men you like to be madly in love with you, at all cost. What Mme Chaucer describes as emotional manipulation, I think of as a misguided attempt at control. You try to control what these guys think about you.

 

I do agree with Kamille, but I will say this: In my own case, I was CLUELESS that I was being manipulative. My best friend from my early teens (who is still one of my best friends) used to be horrified about my manipulative behavior and call me on it all the time. Absolutely honestly, I could not see it.

 

I wanted my boyfriends to be MADLY in love with me. I NEEDED that, so I did what was necessary to get that. It was wrong, disrespectful, not loving, and 100% self-serving. I never dealt with the other person in my life as a free individual with needs, desires, etc. It was just all about ME. Believe me, I did and "gave" a LOT to the person in question ... to get what I wanted. So they would be completely "hooked." I pretty much required obsessive behavior from them. Was I feeling loved and desired enough? Never. So the button pushing just went on and on. And I had NO CLUE that I was doing it. In retrospect, I believe I thought that was what a relationship was.

 

Just for the record, that childhood bff of mine cut me off completely for more than 2 years, and she was not the only one.

 

When the time in my life came for me to get accountable for myself and for the way MY behavior had molded my life, it was a painful experience to say the least.

 

In my case, it was helpful to own the very negative label of "MANIPULATIVE."

 

I don't think that you two are identical and I know that my youthful self was different from both of you, but the parts I see as similar are worth your attention ... IMO. If you would like to change your patterns.

[northern_sky]

fck, I'm lonely.

[Kamille]

fck, I'm lonely.

 

hmmm... Any band playing in your town? Any café where you could go hang out? Perhaps a movie you want to see?

[northern_sky]

hmmm... Any band playing in your town? Any café where you could go hang out? Perhaps a movie you want to see?

 

Yeah, I should be more proactive, good thinking. Actually, right now I am procrastinating on my work so I need to do that instead. I have like no free time