Ruby Slippers Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 The scientific/atheist world view is much bleaker. There is randomness and noise, and you probably cannot make the right decision, as right and wrong aren't even properly defined outside of specific contexts. I see it a little differently. I'm agnostic, which means I know that I can never really know, but I do not believe in an all-powerful creator figure. I see people grasping for religion so they can look forward to a sweet hereafter and delay greatness now. People who know that this is it, if they can bear the burden of this truth, understand that if you're going to do anything great, you have to do it now, while you're alive. And I wrote about my feelings on the subject at hand here. Friends were over tonight, and one of them asked me to do a tarot reading for him. He had a question about a problem at work that has him feeling stuck. The reading basically said that his doubt, self-judgment, and hesitation were the only things holding him back from what he really wants, and that he just needs to be decisive and go for it. I am an empathetic, caring person to whom people often come for non-judgment, acceptance, and advice. The cards just give us a fun and seductive framework in which to talk openly and discuss problems and solutions. It resonated for him, and left him feeling inspired and go-get-'em. This cannot possibly be a bad thing.
sweetjasmine Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 In my philosophy group a few months back, we were discussing reasons why some sort of religious/spiritual belief could be a useful thing to have. And one reason that came up was, that it can be a deterrant for suicide. Think about it, if you are an atheist and therefore believe there is nothing after death, and you didn't like being alive, what would stop you from just taking yourself out. The pain it would cause your loved ones. The knowledge that things can get better if you work at it. But there are times when all people have to look forward to is suffering miserably until the day they die. If they choose to end their suffering by ending their lives, who's to say that's a bad thing?
welikeincrowds Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Think about it, if you are an atheist and therefore believe there is nothing after death, and you didn't like being alive, what would stop you from just taking yourself out. The very same emotion that religion offers: hope. Hope for a better future. Or, maybe a better word would be faith. Your position has circular reasoning. A religious person must have faith to be religious; if he does not have faith, then he is not truly religious. A suicidal person is a person who lacks faith, and therefore a person can never be truly religious and suicidal at the same time. That doesn't at all mean that religion automatically cures one of the possibility of suicide. It just means the two terms are mutually exclusive. One's faith is personal. It cannot be given by God or a religion. Thus a religious person can lose his faith, just as a suicidal atheist can regain (a non-religious) faith.
Titania22 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 To start I was just putting this out there, because it came up in the discussion and hought it would be interesting to throw it in here. The pain it would cause your loved ones. The knowledge that things can get better if you work at it. But there are times when all people have to look forward to is suffering miserably until the day they die. If they choose to end their suffering by ending their lives, who's to say that's a bad thing? Personally I don't think it's a bad thing at all. The very same emotion that religion offers: hope. Hope for a better future. Or, maybe a better word would be faith. Your position has circular reasoning. A religious person must have faith to be religious; if he does not have faith, then he is not truly religious. A suicidal person is a person who lacks faith, and therefore a person can never be truly religious and suicidal at the same time. That doesn't at all mean that religion automatically cures one of the possibility of suicide. It just means the two terms are mutually exclusive. One's faith is personal. It cannot be given by God or a religion. Thus a religious person can lose his faith, just as a suicidal atheist can regain (a non-religious) faith. One thing religion has offered, especially in the past, is fear. The whole suicide is a sin, you'll burn in hell if you do it, is a big deterrent to someone who has been raised in the belief, and has explored anything else. Also spirituality, often contains the idea that you are here for a purpose, and even your suffering has purpose, so a person carrying that belief might be at their wits end, but the belief is what makes them try to hold out just a little bit longer. I am not saying that there are any absolutes. Just that there are probably people out there who would have killed themselves, had they not been believing in something that encouraged them to hold off. Also, just because an atheistic faith will satisfy some people, doesn't mean that all people would find the atheistic viewpoint a compelling reason to live.
Untouchable_Fire Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Seriously, just looking at Facebook and a whole lot of OLD profiles, I'm shocked by how many girls put "Astrology" and "Horoscopes" and "Feng Shui" and "Tarot Cards" and stuff on their "Interests" lists. That stuff is dumb. It's not real! I'm sorry if it sounds snobbish, but I really have difficulty relating to or even respecting someone who believes in that stuff. And looking at guys profiles to compare and contrast, I found no guys who believe in that as well. Whats up with girls and the occult? I'm guessing that it has something to do with the desire to feel like a relationship is just meant to be or not. When the success or failure of such a personal thing is determined by the stars or some other ethereal force... It helps remove the need for guilt or effort.
loverofloveandstuff Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah, see, there's the problem. You're not religious, you're Catholic. Huh??? No I'm not. I went to a Catholic school, doesn't make me Catholic.
welikeincrowds Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Huh??? No I'm not. I went to a Catholic school, doesn't make me Catholic. Spoken like a true Catholic. Yeah, I went too. So that would make me an atheist, naturally. I still have all the guilt though.
loverofloveandstuff Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 In my philosophy group a few months back, we were discussing reasons why some sort of religious/spiritual belief could be a useful thing to have. And one reason that came up was, that it can be a deterrant for suicide. Think about it, if you are an atheist and therefore believe there is nothing after death, and you didn't like being alive, what would stop you from just taking yourself out. Yeah... You would think it would be a deterrant for crime too... but it's not. I read some statistics awhile ago about prisons in Australia and the majority of people there are religious. Ofcourse, you should take into account the majority of people in Australia are religious, but even so. You would also think it would be a deterrant for war but it's often a reason for one. You could also argue that Christians don't have to take responsibility for their actions. They have the 10 commandments and plenty of religious principles based on love and what to do and what not to do (although some things are very ambiguous), but at the end of the day you can just go to Church on Sunday, admit your sins and God will forgive all?? Come on. I'm not saying religion is always a bad thing. Some of the kindest peope I know are very strong Christians and most of my friends come from some sort of religious background.
Tim The Enchanter Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Also, just because an atheistic faith will satisfy some people, doesn't mean that all people would find the atheistic viewpoint a compelling reason to live. Atheism isn't a faith. It's the lack of faith. I do not believe in God or Gods or other supernatural beings because I am not convinced by the evidence.
loverofloveandstuff Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) Think about it, if you are an atheist and therefore believe there is nothing after death, and you didn't like being alive, what would stop you from just taking yourself out. Titania, to me that is like saying... 'If you are not religious, you might as well not do any good in your life because ultimately you will die. If you are not religious you, there is no reason to treat others kindly and be generous in life because a God doesn't exist to praise you for your actions.' These things are simply not true. There are always exceptions but I believe people have a moral conscience and are not automatically bad people because they do not follow a religious code. With exceptions, I also believe people have an innate desire to live that is not related to religion at all. I'm not religious and I certainly don't want to jump off a bridge because there is no god or heaven or hell. There are other things to live for. Edited November 7, 2010 by loverofloveandstuff
Titania22 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah... You would think it would be a deterrant for crime too... but it's not. I read some statistics awhile ago about prisons in Australia and the majority of people there are religious. Ofcourse, you should take into account the majority of people in Australia are religious, but even so. You would also think it would be a deterrant for war but it's often a reason for one. You could also argue that Christians don't have to take responsibility for their actions. They have the 10 commandments and plenty of religious principles based on love and what to do and what not to do (although some things are very ambiguous), but at the end of the day you can just go to Church on Sunday, admit your sins and God will forgive all?? Come on. I'm not saying religion is always a bad thing. Some of the kindest peope I know are very strong Christians and most of my friends come from some sort of religious background. All very good points. I'm not a big fan of organised religion myself, too much dogma, and too many hypocrites. I wonder if most of the people in any religion, merely inhereted the religion from their families (tribe), rather then went on a personal journey that brought them to the religion. This would explain the fracture between someone associating themselves with a set of principles and their actual actions.
loverofloveandstuff Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 All very good points. I'm not a big fan of organised religion myself, too much dogma, and too many hypocrites. I wonder if most of the people in any religion, merely inhereted the religion from their families (tribe), rather then went on a personal journey that brought them to the religion. This would explain the fracture between someone associating themselves with a set of principles and their actual actions. Yeah, I've often wondered this too. Most people I have met have inhereted religion and actually don't know all that much about the religion they follow but have accepted it and not really questioned it. Actually, I would say most atheists know more about religion than the religious people I have met. The people that have been lead on a personal journey that brought them to a particular religion, IME, are a lot more fanatical and often find religion instigated by a bad situation that has happened in their life and their 'God' has helped them to have faith through their circumstances.
Titania22 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah, I've often wondered this too. Most people I have met have inhereted religion and actually don't know all that much about the religion they follow but have accepted it and not really questioned it. Actually, I would say most atheists know more about religion than the religious people I have met. The people that have been lead on a personal journey that brought them to a particular religion, IME, are a lot more fanatical and often find religion instigated by a bad situation that has happened in their life and their 'God' has helped them to have faith through their circumstances. I know what you mean. There are many people who just look for a crutch, to help them when times are tough. I think that's why churchs like HillSong are so popular. There are others though. The few. The brave. Like myself. I am neither atheist nor follow a specific religion (include new age religion). But I have journey. I was drawn to seek, from birth almost. But trapped under my father and then my husband, it wasn't until I was free that I could commit fully to my search. I looked into several religions and even had an atheist phase, and new age and conspiracy, all on my excellent adventure, but never found one group I could commit too, there was always a catch, something I couldn't agree with. So I came to a place where I know what resonates for me, and I don't even try to explain it to anyone else. It works for me, and to me it is brilliant. But probably the best part about it, is that I discovered and chose it for myself. Unfortunately I feel there are still very few people that look for their own answers, rather then just choosing the package deal that is the most convenient fit.
theBrokenMuse Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Does anyone else think of Tim Minchin's whenever this topic comes up?
EasyHeart Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Some people are more open-minded and curious, some people are more narrow-minded and conventional. It's actually a good barometer of whether you're going to be compatible.
Titania22 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Does anyone else think of Tim Minchin's whenever this topic comes up? Thanks for the link, I enjoyed it.
irc333 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah, I have seen 2 women on a dating site, no joke, they named of SIX astrology signs that she said, "If you're these signs, do NOT email me" Even if I beleived in horoscope crap, I'd think she was eliminating HALF the Zodiac , and seriously being unreasonable. LOL Seriously, just looking at Facebook and a whole lot of OLD profiles, I'm shocked by how many girls put "Astrology" and "Horoscopes" and "Feng Shui" and "Tarot Cards" and stuff on their "Interests" lists. That stuff is dumb. It's not real! I'm sorry if it sounds snobbish, but I really have difficulty relating to or even respecting someone who believes in that stuff. And looking at guys profiles to compare and contrast, I found no guys who believe in that as well. Whats up with girls and the occult?
theBrokenMuse Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah, I have seen 2 women on a dating site, no joke, they named of SIX astrology signs that she said, "If you're these signs, do NOT email me" Even if I beleived in horoscope crap, I'd think she was eliminating HALF the Zodiac , and seriously being unreasonable. LOL Eh, weirdos are everywhere. The sooner you get to cross them off the list for their half-baked notions about reality, the better.
Titania22 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Yeah, I have seen 2 women on a dating site, no joke, they named of SIX astrology signs that she said, "If you're these signs, do NOT email me" Even if I beleived in horoscope crap, I'd think she was eliminating HALF the Zodiac , and seriously being unreasonable. LOL That could have more to do with personality typing then astrology.
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