Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Does anyone else see a pattern here? So many posters who are currently having affairs, or have had one, have a story of having been cheated on in a past relationship. Or a parent's story. I would think having experienced the devastating pain of that experience would make a person MORE inclined to NOT help enable any MP to do to their spouse what had been done to them, or one of their parents. Yet, over and over again, many OW/OM seem impervious regarding helping to inflict the same pain on an unsuspecting wife or husband. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's about empowerment? Competition? Or more a jaded view as in, "I survived it, so he/she will too? Do you think the failure of a past relationship devastated by infidelity has created, in some, an insecurity that is masked by false bravado? A devil-may-care attitude? Every man/woman for themselves? This is very hard to wrap my head around. Thoughts?
OWoman Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Does anyone else see a pattern here? So many posters who are currently having affairs, or have had one, have a story of having been cheated on in a past relationship. Or a parent's story. I would think having experienced the devastating pain of that experience would make a person MORE inclined to NOT help enable any MP to do to their spouse what had been done to them, or one of their parents. Yet, over and over again, many OW/OM seem impervious regarding helping to inflict the same pain on an unsuspecting wife or husband. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's about empowerment? Competition? Or more a jaded view as in, "I survived it, so he/she will too? Do you think the failure of a past relationship devastated by infidelity has created, in some, an insecurity that is masked by false bravado? A devil-may-care attitude? Every man/woman for themselves? This is very hard to wrap my head around. Thoughts? I've not been betrayed, but I'm guessing here that in some cases it might have to do with an unconscious need to prove oneself desirable or worthy or whatever issue it was that the BW attributed at the time to her failings: "If only I'd been more XYZ, he wouldn't have cheated..." It's not rational, but thinking back to friends who've been BSs, at the time of discovery they all sought reasons within themselves to blame it on, as if somehow by doing things differently / being different, they could have prevented the A. Irrational, but understandable - a need to regain a sense of control. Perhaps by becoming the OW / WS, one is regaining that control - as an OW, by succeeding (in luring away a MM) where as a BS she'd "failed"... I know as the child of a M which featured infidelity in its late stages, I was certainly affected by what I saw. My parents' M had been hell on wheels throughout, but the last while when my father had his A provided (one of them at least) with some happiness and a complete change for the better. it helped temper my cynicism about "love" and Rs and especially Ms, leading me to believe that happiness was sometimes possible in Rs albeit extremely unlikely within the confines of a M.
Silly_Girl Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I see no connection for me at all. The individuals, the places, the circumstances, the background, the history, the ages and personalities of the people involved, the types of behaviour, everything - all different. I never saw my ex-bf's failings as a reflection on me, always FIRMLY a reflection on him. I had plenty of chances to cheat on my ex and never did. Not all people who are cheated on to go on cheat, or be with a cheater. Lots of people never confess to either.
jennie-jennie Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 All my boyfriends, including MM, have been from dysfunctional families of origin, as am I. Had my MM not been from such a family, I am certain he would have gotten a divorce long ago. As I have stated in other posts, the pattern of not feeling in competition to the actual wife, was established in my childhood in relation to my parents' marriage. It doesn't represent a threat to me that my MM is already married. My MM is much gentler and emotionally healthier than my previous boyfriends, so I feel the progress I have made during my life with personal development has paid off. I don't know if I will ever be completely functional (in opposite to dysfunctional) though, considering my family of origin, and thus I expect I will always have boyfriends with some degree of dysfunctionality.
bentnotbroken Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I don't know if it the case for all or even most ow. But in my situation, ow claims her ex. cheated on her...so I guess she was out to pay him back by coming into my life. I think it would be an interesting study...but I don't think we would get accurate results. We as humans like to view ourselves in the most positive light and we use too many rationalizations to explain away behavior that causes dissonance.
carhill Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Does anyone else see a pattern here? Of the MW's I've known personally, in addition to other non-MW's who have shared stuff with me, more have been the 'first' to cheat in their M's than not. All have stated or alluded to dysfunctional family histories and, surprisingly to me, an overwhelming commonality of their mothers cheating on their fathers. I have no clue whether they were ever cheated on in the past, but evidently not in their M's prior to their infidelity. Some have shared their H's had subsequent 'revenge' affairs or cheated for other reasons. I wasn't exposed to any of this during my socialization so was woefully ignorant of how this particular part of the world worked so did get sucked in as an OM a few times. Those are my datapoints.
ladydesigner Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Does anyone else see a pattern here? So many posters who are currently having affairs, or have had one, have a story of having been cheated on in a past relationship. Or a parent's story. I would think having experienced the devastating pain of that experience would make a person MORE inclined to NOT help enable any MP to do to their spouse what had been done to them, or one of their parents. Yet, over and over again, many OW/OM seem impervious regarding helping to inflict the same pain on an unsuspecting wife or husband. Why do you think that is? Do you think it's about empowerment? Competition? Or more a jaded view as in, "I survived it, so he/she will too? Do you think the failure of a past relationship devastated by infidelity has created, in some, an insecurity that is masked by false bravado? A devil-may-care attitude? Every man/woman for themselves? This is very hard to wrap my head around. Thoughts? It is very hard for myself to wrap my head around this too, still can't. I guess it was a feeling of entitlement. I felt entitled to have an A when my H had already had one. An eye for an eye. I did not think of the consequences nor care at the time. I felt like I was ready to leave my M. As far as my XOM's long-term girlfriend. It is sad, but I did not think about her at all. I do now because she does not know her boyfriend cheated on her. I feel the reason I am keeping my A from my H is because he has not given me full truths, so I do not feel I owe him my truth. I guess you can say I have sweeped it all under the rug (and I know this is not a popular view here as far as R). For some reason we seem to be communicating better, more emotionally bonded, and more sex. I do believe my H's A's were a definite reaction to our sex life being in the dumps. I believe my A was about empowerment in the beginning, when my XOM ended with me that empowerment was ripped out from under me. Now I was left to focus on my battered marriage and a rejected heart and ego. Not an easy situation to digest at all. I really would take it all back in a second if I could. I probably would still be hating and resenting my H though. I probably would have left him. I am happy that we are still together though. I take it day by day. Who knows I'm sure one day the truths will come out, but then again maybe not. Oh I should add that I came from a family in which my mother had multiple A's. This also made me think well if she did it so can I. Talk about some screwed up thinking
Silly_Girl Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I don't know if it the case for all or even most ow. But in my situation, ow claims her ex. cheated on her...so I guess she was out to pay him back by coming into my life. I think it would be an interesting study...but I don't think we would get accurate results. We as humans like to view ourselves in the most positive light and we use too many rationalizations to explain away behavior that causes dissonance. I think this MAY be an attempt to dig, but it backfires. I could easily say I have x, y and z reasons to 'explain' or 'justify' my behaviour. I have none. I am in charge of what I do and have yet found nothing (personally, or through my weekly IC) to suggest I am acting in a certain way - in this particular instance - as a result of something in my past. I'm in a relationship with a married man for reasons that only relate to me and that married man, and nothing else.
bentnotbroken Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I think this MAY be an attempt to dig, but it backfires. I could easily say I have x, y and z reasons to 'explain' or 'justify' my behaviour. I have none. I am in charge of what I do and have yet found nothing (personally, or through my weekly IC) to suggest I am acting in a certain way - in this particular instance - as a result of something in my past. I'm in a relationship with a married man for reasons that only relate to me and that married man, and nothing else. Not only was it not a dig:confused: It is the truth. Any actions that we take and it conflicts with something within us there is dissonance. Whether it is eating too many calories, saying something you know will hurt someone or an affair. Different levels of actions....yes. But all have the potential to cause angst. We all do it. (ex. I speed because everyone else is doing it.) it is a form of rationalizing why I never drive the speed limit. Your situation isn't unique enough to me and I would suspect others to warrant a "dig" you aren't the center of my thought process. I commented on "my" situation and then made an observation.
bentnotbroken Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 It is very hard for myself to wrap my head around this too, still can't. I guess it was a feeling of entitlement. I felt entitled to have an A when my H had already had one. An eye for an eye. I did not think of the consequences nor care at the time. I felt like I was ready to leave my M. As far as my XOM's long-term girlfriend. It is sad, but I did not think about her at all. I do now because she does not know her boyfriend cheated on her. I feel the reason I am keeping my A from my H is because he has not given me full truths, so I do not feel I owe him my truth. I guess you can say I have sweeped it all under the rug (and I know this is not a popular view here as far as R). For some reason we seem to be communicating better, more emotionally bonded, and more sex. I do believe my H's A's were a definite reaction to our sex life being in the dumps. I believe my A was about empowerment in the beginning, when my XOM ended with me that empowerment was ripped out from under me. Now I was left to focus on my battered marriage and a rejected heart and ego. Not an easy situation to digest at all. I really would take it all back in a second if I could. I probably would still be hating and resenting my H though. I probably would have left him. I am happy that we are still together though. I take it day by day. Who knows I'm sure one day the truths will come out, but then again maybe not. Oh I should add that I came from a family in which my mother had multiple A's. This also made me think well if she did it so can I. Talk about some screwed up thinking The bolded are also instances of comely used rationalizations. (not pointing you out) just the statements can be used by anyone for any action.
Silly_Girl Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Not only was it not a dig:confused: It is the truth. Any actions that we take and it conflicts with something within us there is dissonance. Whether it is eating too many calories, saying something you know will hurt someone or an affair. Different levels of actions....yes. But all have the potential to cause angst. We all do it. (ex. I speed because everyone else is doing it.) it is a form of rationalizing why I never drive the speed limit. Your situation isn't unique enough to me and I would suspect others to warrant a "dig" you aren't the center of my thought process. I commented on "my" situation and then made an observation. The OP wasn't about over-eating or speeding though. My point was that not everyone makes excuses for their actions.
bentnotbroken Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 The OP wasn't about over-eating or speeding though. My point was that not everyone makes excuses for their actions. Again I spoke of MY situtation. Then added MY opinion based on tested theories. We (maybe not YOU) as a human race rationalize our behavior, good, bad or otherwise. As evidenced by LD post and even yours in attacking me. Sheesh...you are not the center of the universe.
ladydesigner Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 The bolded are also instances of comely used rationalizations. (not pointing you out) just the statements can be used by anyone for any action. Oh I so agree with you on this BNB. I rationalized the hell out my A before and after. I have a lot of work to do on myself and my M, this I do know. I think everyone rationalizes their reasons for having an A.
jthorne Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I'm in a relationship with a married man for reasons that only relate to me and that married man, and nothing else.Isn't this your excuse/rationalization, then?
bentnotbroken Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Oh I so agree with you on this BNB. I rationalized the hell out my A before and after. I have a lot of work to do on myself and my M, this I do know. I think everyone rationalizes their reasons for having an A. Rationalization isn't just confined to an affair though. We all do it. If I knocked the hell out of someone for looking at me the wrong way, I would say they had it coming(definatly not true) or if I drank too much, I had a bad day. It is part of human nature.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 I've not been betrayed, but I'm guessing here that in some cases it might have to do with an unconscious need to prove oneself desirable or worthy or whatever issue it was that the BW attributed at the time to her failings: "If only I'd been more XYZ, he wouldn't have cheated..." It's not rational, but thinking back to friends who've been BSs, at the time of discovery they all sought reasons within themselves to blame it on, as if somehow by doing things differently / being different, they could have prevented the A. Irrational, but understandable - a need to regain a sense of control. Perhaps by becoming the OW / WS, one is regaining that control - as an OW, by succeeding (in luring away a MM) where as a BS she'd "failed"... I know as the child of a M which featured infidelity in its late stages, I was certainly affected by what I saw. My parents' M had been hell on wheels throughout, but the last while when my father had his A provided (one of them at least) with some happiness and a complete change for the better. it helped temper my cynicism about "love" and Rs and especially Ms, leading me to believe that happiness was sometimes possible in Rs albeit extremely unlikely within the confines of a M. Do you know BS CAN go through two psychological phases following DDAY? One is as you stated: If only I had been x,y,z, this wouldn't have happened. Self-blame is a protective mechanism during PTSD; it is an effort to control out of control emotions. What do we seek to initially control? Ourselves. I think you made a very valid point here. The other is blaming the OW. It sheilds us from hating the object of our love and trust, our WS, until we are strong enough to confront them. I am happy your dad found happiness. Not all couples should stay married, IMO.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 I see no connection for me at all. The individuals, the places, the circumstances, the background, the history, the ages and personalities of the people involved, the types of behaviour, everything - all different. I never saw my ex-bf's failings as a reflection on me, always FIRMLY a reflection on him. I had plenty of chances to cheat on my ex and never did. Not all people who are cheated on to go on cheat, or be with a cheater. Lots of people never confess to either. SG, hasn't your MM expressed that his wife has cheated on him? Do you think he feels entitled now to do the same? Did he cheat on her before she cheated on him? I'm just curious as to whether my original assumption was correct.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 All my boyfriends, including MM, have been from dysfunctional families of origin, as am I. Had my MM not been from such a family, I am certain he would have gotten a divorce long ago. As I have stated in other posts, the pattern of not feeling in competition to the actual wife, was established in my childhood in relation to my parents' marriage. It doesn't represent a threat to me that my MM is already married. My MM is much gentler and emotionally healthier than my previous boyfriends, so I feel the progress I have made during my life with personal development has paid off. I don't know if I will ever be completely functional (in opposite to dysfunctional) though, considering my family of origin, and thus I expect I will always have boyfriends with some degree of dysfunctionality. I understand this. We do model our family of origin in relationships and in the choosing of our significant others, unless we make a very introspective choice not to repeat patterns that may be self-destructive. There would be no counselors and mental health professionals if this were not the case.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 I don't know if it the case for all or even most ow. But in my situation, ow claims her ex. cheated on her...so I guess she was out to pay him back by coming into my life. I think it would be an interesting study...but I don't think we would get accurate results. We as humans like to view ourselves in the most positive light and we use too many rationalizations to explain away behavior that causes dissonance. Agreed. It would be too difficult to study. The OW in my triangle was not indifferent to her xH, who she claimed cheated on her continuously throughout the marriage and married his last OW. In fact, she was still so angry and acrimonious towards him, others suspected she still had deep feelings for him, since the opposite of love is NOT hate, but indifference.
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 Of the MW's I've known personally, in addition to other non-MW's who have shared stuff with me, more have been the 'first' to cheat in their M's than not. All have stated or alluded to dysfunctional family histories and, surprisingly to me, an overwhelming commonality of their mothers cheating on their fathers. I have no clue whether they were ever cheated on in the past, but evidently not in their M's prior to their infidelity. Some have shared their H's had subsequent 'revenge' affairs or cheated for other reasons. I wasn't exposed to any of this during my socialization so was woefully ignorant of how this particular part of the world worked so did get sucked in as an OM a few times. Those are my datapoints. And hopefully, they were being truthful with you too! So, do you think their behavior was modeling after their mother's? Marry a man like dear old dad (translation=boring) and then find someone new to spice things up? Now that might be an interesting study too: a Are the children of cheaters more likely to cheat in their primary relationship in adulthood? (I think the answer is yes.)
Author Spark1111 Posted November 4, 2010 Author Posted November 4, 2010 It is very hard for myself to wrap my head around this too, still can't. I guess it was a feeling of entitlement. I felt entitled to have an A when my H had already had one. An eye for an eye. I did not think of the consequences nor care at the time. I felt like I was ready to leave my M. As far as my XOM's long-term girlfriend. It is sad, but I did not think about her at all. I do now because she does not know her boyfriend cheated on her. I feel the reason I am keeping my A from my H is because he has not given me full truths, so I do not feel I owe him my truth. I guess you can say I have sweeped it all under the rug (and I know this is not a popular view here as far as R). For some reason we seem to be communicating better, more emotionally bonded, and more sex. I do believe my H's A's were a definite reaction to our sex life being in the dumps. I believe my A was about empowerment in the beginning, when my XOM ended with me that empowerment was ripped out from under me. Now I was left to focus on my battered marriage and a rejected heart and ego. Not an easy situation to digest at all. I really would take it all back in a second if I could. I probably would still be hating and resenting my H though. I probably would have left him. I am happy that we are still together though. I take it day by day. Who knows I'm sure one day the truths will come out, but then again maybe not. Oh I should add that I came from a family in which my mother had multiple A's. This also made me think well if she did it so can I. Talk about some screwed up thinking Thanks for this honesty, LD. You have written often about the choices you made and why you made them. I can see how one would think a revenge affair could be empowering initially. And thinking Mom did it, so can I, might play into more scenarios than one could imagine. Another dynamic counselors would explore with women is: How did Daddy treat you? Was he there for you? Loving, kind and supportive? Or was he cold, distant, and critical? That becomes the paradigm of a woman's future relationship with men; her expectations of what is and isn't acceptable. ...but that may be another thread!
carhill Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 And hopefully, they were being truthful with you too! Anything is possible, but, generally, people who admit otherwise negative things about themselves, e.g. 'I cheated on my husband (in one recent case, she said it was with a family friend of her H's)' I tend to believe such revelations. What do they have to gain by lying about such actions? My sympathy? I could see it the other way around 'Woe is me, my H cheated on me and I couldn't help myself; I felt so low' (Yes, I've heard those stories too). Additionally, and I again have no way to verify, sexual abuse appears to be a feature of the majority of my anecdotes, generally during the adolescent years. It hasn't been an easy or healthy path being an unpaid therapist or, variously, emotional 'hole', but it has provided some insight into the diversity of experience out there. I'm sure our MC (and other psychiatric professionals) had/has a much clearer picture of the realities than I ever will. His reactions after interviewing my exW and I separately mirror that picture. Obviously, he couldn't share the details. It is what it is.
Silly_Girl Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 Isn't this your excuse/rationalization, then? No. That's suggesting that by articulating something you're rationalising. My point is that I cannot use a previous incident or period in my life to be my excuse for my actions. For some I'm sure there is an aspect of that, probably not deliberately.
Silly_Girl Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 SG, hasn't your MM expressed that his wife has cheated on him? Do you think he feels entitled now to do the same? Did he cheat on her before she cheated on him? I'm just curious as to whether my original assumption was correct. Sorry, I thought your Q was regarding the AP and not the BS. But yes, she cheated, moved out, got dumped, moved back, apparently ended the physical aspect but refused to cease contact with her MOM and has seen him regularly since. I think my bf didn't feel entitled as such, think he felt lonely and to some extent as though he was keeping the peace, and allowing HER to be happy, which he saw as more important than his own. They were very messed-up, in quite a formal British kind of a way...
silktricks Posted November 4, 2010 Posted November 4, 2010 I haven't read the thread yet - am responding to the original post. I - very disgustingly - have to admit that after I was cheated on by my first husband, I went on to have an affair with a married man. I also, in turn, cheated on a long term lover (post 1st marriage). Do I believe the first (being cheated on by my first husband) precipitated the subsequent 2 incidents? Well, it wasn't the sole cause, but it was definitely a contributing factor. I felt undesired/undesirable and came from an extremely messed-up family that also made me feel pretty crappy about myself. So, looking back, I can see that what I was looking for was both validation and power. Of course, neither of those incidents helped at all . I ended up feeling even worse about myself, as then I couldn't even feel that I had stayed true to my self and my own beliefs of right and wrong. After I returned to my own center and refocused my life and priorities I slowly began to realize that validation didn't come from outside and strength didn't have to be exerted negatively to be powerful. I guess I finally grew up .
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