Author You Go Girl Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 Yes, you both had your parts to play, and you played them, but those parts are not static, but entwined within the circumstances. Anger, yeah probably, but did you have a right to be, With an alcoholic husband? Of course you did. One never knows what the future may hold YGG but even though it hurts now at the very least it seems you both are moving towards bettering yourselves and that alone is a victory in my book. Big hugs to you YGG. TOJAZ Thanks Tojaz! But I want to correct the above. I have called him an alcoholic. It is not my place to do so. Did he misuse alcohol, or drink too much too often? I think so, and I think he would agree. However, I've learned that labeling someone as an alcoholic is wrong. It is up to the drinker, and only the drinker, to decide this. He did not suffer DT's when he abstained. He didn't miss work, drive and drink, nor be financially irresponsible. But, to be fair, is there a meeting he can go to? "For men whose women won't manage their finances" ? Or "for those who have someone in their life who procrastinates"? I'm just saying...life's a lesson in humility. As for me, I'm done with the finger pointing, forever. Hugs right back atcha!
trippi1432 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 Thanks Tojaz! But I want to correct the above. I have called him an alcoholic. It is not my place to do so. Did he misuse alcohol, or drink too much too often? I think so, and I think he would agree. However, I've learned that labeling someone as an alcoholic is wrong. It is up to the drinker, and only the drinker, to decide this. He did not suffer DT's when he abstained. He didn't miss work, drive and drink, nor be financially irresponsible. But, to be fair, is there a meeting he can go to? "For men whose women won't manage their finances" ? Or "for those who have someone in their life who procrastinates"? I'm just saying...life's a lesson in humility. As for me, I'm done with the finger pointing, forever. Hugs right back atcha! Well YGG - perhaps your ex is different from everyone else....Mine didn't do a lot of those things either..but then again...my ex was a narcissistic alcoholic (umm, that means ego driven). I think that each of our situations are different...but none of it is be over-romanticized. I do not believe that it is up to the drinker to define when they have a problem....not to the detriment of their family, their marriage or other loved ones. I could sit around and blame myself for every time I didn't participate in a child's birthday party....a family cookout....because at the end of the night I didn't want to deal with the fact that is was drier to sleep on the couch or explain to our son why his dad pee'd on the wall in front of him in the middle of the night. I could, and did, give my ex space to partake of his alcohol and pot in the garage every night for hours before coming upstairs and ignoring his family...yes, I know...that's not your ex...but if soberecovery and Al-Anon are teaching you that it is a form of acceptance...I can only wonder what message you have received, because if accepting him as he was without acceptance of myself in return was the answer to a peaceful marriage...then I wouldn't be divorced today......I would have just gone along to get along. Life lessons is humility...as one of my friends told me about her mother...the day she died at 51 years old...her husband was no where to be found, but at least her children were there. Where was he...at the bar...at least he showed up at her funeral...with a good excuse to drink. What made her a wonderful lady, and maybe a martyr as it was pointed out at the funeral, was that she left behind five beautiful daughters even if she never knew that she was loved for her own inner beauty. Her husband never remarried..but delved deeper in the bottle over his own lack of self-control, remorse and guilt until he died 10 years later...alone. Actually...there are a lot of stories like that out there. If I am leaning hard...you may correct me...but is LS a good place to lay this out...no, probably not....but it is a place where people come for advice on the exact topic you are referring to. Some much worse off actually and victims of physical abuse...to say that it is up to their abuser to determine that they have a problem...that is what they will see and think that THEY are the problem, just as an abuser would want them to. Did your ex have issues that drove you to where you are now...yes...did you behave appropriately...maybe not or not as he would have wished you did. Is that all your fault...no, it takes two people not communicating, not caring any more to break it. There are more underlying issues that AA and Al-Anon may not answer for you because, as you have pointed out..he was not an alcoholic. That is what needs to be addressed..not how you manage your finances, not if you or he procrastinates...but what the two of you need from each other to be happy. For all people looking for advice on alcoholism and how it affects your family and you...please seek help via Al-Anon support groups. Not that YGG's ex was abusive, but if someone you love is an abusive alcoholic, it is not up to them to label themselves before you seek help...all situations are different.
Author You Go Girl Posted November 7, 2010 Author Posted November 7, 2010 Well YGG - perhaps your ex is different from everyone else....Mine didn't do a lot of those things either..but then again...my ex was a narcissistic alcoholic (umm, that means ego driven). I think that each of our situations are different...but none of it is be over-romanticized. I do not believe that it is up to the drinker to define when they have a problem....not to the detriment of their family, their marriage or other loved ones. I do believe he abused alcohol. Frequently. I think he would agree with this. But yes, I am unwilling to label him. It is solely up to him to decide when his drinking is unhealthy, and when it is not. It is solely up to him to decide whether he can drink in some capacity socially and without being destructive, or if he must abstain entirely. This is why I refuse to label him. It is his life, his drinking, and he will decide if he needs to abstain entirely or not. There are dynamics here that I no longer am comfortable discussing his behaviors on LS. We are at an extremely fragile point in having a relationship with each other at all. So I will focus on my behaviors, just as all 12 step programs suggest. To vent my frustrations with his behaviors is no longer an acceptable method for me. It never worked anyway! I doubt it ever works. It may bring sympathy, but that too is not a method to change ANYTHING. There are people who surely need sympathy. I have gathered enough sympathy. I need to examine myself. People start out in al-anon and other programs looking for sympathy. Later, as they work the steps, they move onto examining themselves and their behavior. The 12 steps are exactly the same for those who drink, and those who are in a relationship with a drinker. There is good reason for this. I could sit around and blame myself for every time I didn't participate in a child's birthday party....a family cookout....because at the end of the night I didn't want to deal with the fact that is was drier to sleep on the couch or explain to our son why his dad pee'd on the wall in front of him in the middle of the night. I could, and did, give my ex space to partake of his alcohol and pot in the garage every night for hours before coming upstairs and ignoring his family...yes, I know...that's not your ex...but if soberecovery and Al-Anon are teaching you that it is a form of acceptance...I can only wonder what message you have received, because if accepting him as he was without acceptance of myself in return was the answer to a peaceful marriage...then I wouldn't be divorced today......I would have just gone along to get along. You're onto something there. He did accept me as I was, and wanted me to accept him as he was. I was the one who pushed for him to change without changing myself. If I am leaning hard...you may correct me...but is LS a good place to lay this out...no, probably not....but it is a place where people come for advice on the exact topic you are referring to. Some much worse off actually and victims of physical abuse...to say that it is up to their abuser to determine that they have a problem...that is what they will see and think that THEY are the problem, just as an abuser would want them to. LS is not a good place to lay this out, you are correct, another reason why I am not going to delve deeper into it on LS. People who come here to read or write with this type of problem need to go to the professionals who deal specifically with alcohol. I am not suggesting that people redirect alcohol related issues back on themselves. Still, it does hold true, that each drinker must decide for themselves that they have a problem in order for any change to come of it. Others labeling them doesn't solve anything. Do you get where I am going with that? Did your ex have issues that drove you to where you are now...yes...did you behave appropriately...maybe not or not as he would have wished you did. Is that all your fault...no, it takes two people not communicating, not caring any more to break it. There are more underlying issues that AA and Al-Anon may not answer for you because, as you have pointed out..he was not an alcoholic. That is what needs to be addressed..not how you manage your finances, not if you or he procrastinates...but what the two of you need from each other to be happy. There are underlying issues in any relationship, even if alcohol is a part of the picture. AA/Al-anon do work beyond just the issue of alcohol. That's the point of the program. Because underneath every drink, is something else. I am not saying he isn't alcoholic. I am not saying he is alcoholic either. I am leaving it up to him whether he is or not. He didn't lose his job, fail to pay his bills, or ever drink and drive. That doesn't mean he isn't alcoholic, either. I won't paint a picture of his destructive behaviors on LS for several reasons, one being that I won't air all my dirty laundry that I own either on LS. It is too personal for both of us. LS is good for general discussions. The nitty gritty, no. It doesn't belong here. For all people looking for advice on alcoholism and how it affects your family and you...please seek help via Al-Anon support groups. Not that YGG's ex was abusive, but if someone you love is an abusive alcoholic, it is not up to them to label themselves before you seek help...all situations are different. I agree with this last statement, trippi. I believe it is a fact that he drank too much. I believe that we were abusive to each other in different ways. However I am not willing to say he was an abusive alcoholic. That is just going too far, because our situation is so very fragile. I think for any drinker, they hurt themselves as much, if not more than they hurt others. Now if someone is physically abused by a drinker, that is an entirely different animal. People who are codependent, may choose to abuse mentally, just as drinkers do. That was my role, I own it, and I have made a conscious choice to never in frustration hurt another person as a method of trying to be heard for the rest of my life. It is the wrong choice every time. It took an entire week of self-examination, walled up in my cave, to really take a hard look at myself and face the truth to what I own in my destructive behaviors. It was humbling, to say the least. No one ever makes a real change in themselves without very sobering self-examination. It is the reason that people don't usually really change, but only change superficially, and then go right back to who they were before. Simply put, the pain of self-examination is usually too much for people to bear. I have made a committment to myself to change for real, in a big way. I have had 3 wake up calls in the last few weeks. All of them traumatic and life changing events.
trippi1432 Posted November 7, 2010 Posted November 7, 2010 " I am not suggesting that people redirect alcohol related issues back on themselves. Still, it does hold true, that each drinker must decide for themselves that they have a problem in order for any change to come of it. Others labeling them doesn't solve anything. Do you get where I am going with that?" I agree with this last statement, trippi. I believe it is a fact that he drank too much. I believe that we were abusive to each other in different ways. However I am not willing to say he was an abusive alcoholic. That is just going too far, because our situation is so very fragile. I think for any drinker, they hurt themselves as much, if not more than they hurt others. Now if someone is physically abused by a drinker, that is an entirely different animal. People who are codependent, may choose to abuse mentally, just as drinkers do. That was my role, I own it, and I have made a conscious choice to never in frustration hurt another person as a method of trying to be heard for the rest of my life. It is the wrong choice every time. It took an entire week of self-examination, walled up in my cave, to really take a hard look at myself and face the truth to what I own in my destructive behaviors. It was humbling, to say the least. No one ever makes a real change in themselves without very sobering self-examination. It is the reason that people don't usually really change, but only change superficially, and then go right back to who they were before. Simply put, the pain of self-examination is usually too much for people to bear. I have made a committment to myself to change for real, in a big way. I have had 3 wake up calls in the last few weeks. All of them traumatic and life changing events. No, YGG...I do agree with much of what you state...it's the one's that won't work on it for themselves....the one's that don't see it. As you stated, they change superficially and nothing gets resolved. That was my ex....the way we all affected each other and where our son is now in the brunt of it with his behavioral problems...it wasn't just my ex's problem...it was all our problem. It does help a lot when one person realizes the issue and takes the step you have to go to Al-Anon and do some self-evaluation. It means even more if he is willing to go along to learn more about himself as well...whether the issue is alcohol or just general communication issues, you will both learn something. For those that are severely affected by it, like my family was, deeper intervention was needed since my ex never had a problem with alcohol by his own admission. Each situation is different, but I think you and your exH are on a better path than most. None of us are without faults...much of what I referred to when my ex stopped drinking and became a better person with his GF...he did something for her he couldn't do for me and his son. I had to do that same self-examination that you are going through...and yes, it can be very humbling. I wish you both the best of luck on this journey of rediscovering yourselves....however, it winds up...it will help you both.
Too Much Posted November 10, 2010 Posted November 10, 2010 Hi YGG, Wondering if you and ex had your dinner, if so, how did it go? Also, would like to know if you are feeling better?
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