What is the source of all the bitterness here?

[Taramere]

Your theory is that marginalization creates a bond of understanding between bad boy type men and women?

 

I Asian men are marginalized by our society... and women treat them like they are radioactive in the dating arena. Nerds are marginalized in highschool, yet that also fails to create widespread attraction.

 

I really don't think what makes this so common is mutual marginalization. In fact... I think most males who are marginalized generally get ignored by women. Which makes sense... they have low success rates.

 

I really think that what makes the "bad boy" archetype attractive is the perception of strength, confidence, individuality, and need.

 

What do you perceive as society? American society, Western society or the world at large?

 

I started a Prom Royalty thread to try to understand some of this a bit better. Years ago when I visited the US, I was talking about High School life with this American girl, and trying to get a sense of it. She was fairly smug and said she'd had a great time in High School. I said I'd have probably hated it. She told me I'd have been fine, but my accent might have let me down and I'd have had to work on toning it down in order to fit in, unless the right people deemed it "cute". Which was interesting to me, because in my childhood I spent a year abroad (NZ) and although the other kids obviously noticed my accent, they were absolutely fine with it. I didn't have to tone a thing down. There was never any question of me being alienated because I didn't talk like everyone else.

 

Surely there's not just one Asian in every school? Not just one nerd? Not just one non-American? Surely there would be an abundance of people who weren't permitted to hang out with this small core of self-appointed "cool" people, or wouldn't want to hang out with them - or liked some of the people in the in-crowd, but weren't prepared to whore themselves out to be part of that crowd? In a situation like that I would not have been interested in guys who were part of that crowd, because going out with someone like that would have meant hanging out with a bunch of people who most probably wouldn't be my cup of tea. So in terms of finding a boyfriend, I would have been looking for a guy who felt similarly to me, and I'd have been looking for him in amongst that vast crowd of marginalised people.

 

I've been trying to fathom why men in America seem embittered about and hostile to women to an extent which I really haven't seen reflected anywhere else. Where this obsession with putting American women down and talking about them as though every American woman out there is a bitchy, self important, former High School Prom Queen. I wonder if there are a lot of men out there who, well into their adult lives, struggle with the concept that most women they encounter were probably on the fringes of High School (whether by choice or because they didn't fit the in crowd's criteria). I wonder if why it would be such a struggle to accept the possibility that those women wouldn't regard dating a man who was marginalised in High School as "settling".

Edited October 28, 2010 by Taramere

[Tim The Enchanter]

 

Now in the present, men and women are equals and women can get what they want. Which leads to many men becoming frustrated. This is a very new phenomenon because in the past, a man could just take a woman. Which often occurred.

 

Whether this leads to the death of the human race will have to be seen.

 

The only thing it will lead to is better looking, more capable men, because all the ugly, incompetent guys will have failed to pass on their genes.

 

Also, women are certainly empowered in the developed world, but they still remain as second class citizens in the majority of countries. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc.

[Els]

75% of divorces are initiated by women and in an overwhelming number of cases custody goes to the mother.

 

I'm not denying anything about the kids. I do agree that if and when a divorce happens, women typically get the upper hand.

 

However, 'who initiated divorce' says nothing about who was 'good and faithful' and got kicked out. For all you know, plenty of women initiated divorce because despite being good and faithful wives, their husbands blatantly and perpetually cheated on them.

[Untouchable_Fire]

What do you perceive as society? American society, Western society or the world at large?

 

I was referencing American Society in particular... but the general idea should hold true in most places.

 

I started a Prom Royalty thread to try to understand some of this a bit better. Years ago when I visited the US, I was talking about High School life with this American girl, and trying to get a sense of it. She was fairly smug and said she'd had a great time in High School. I said I'd have probably hated it. She told me I'd have been fine, but my accent might have let me down and I'd have had to work on toning it down in order to fit in, unless the right people deemed it "cute". Which was interesting to me, because in my childhood I spent a year abroad (NZ) and although the other kids obviously noticed my accent, they were absolutely fine with it. I didn't have to tone a thing down. There was never any question of me being alienated because I didn't talk like everyone else.

 

Interesting. It's unfortunate, but in the U.S. education often takes a backseat to socialization in public schools.

 

I actually attended private school from k-8th, and the majority of my Highschool career felt like a review course. The teachers spent more time trying to indoctrinate me into believing in their social agenda than teaching me about the subjects. Most public school students are so used to it that they are unaware. Liberal arts college professors are similar, though much better at teaching.

 

The point is that I think our school system fails to challenge many students, so they occupy themselves by creating social hierarchies.

 

I've never seen anyone alienated due to accent. Your prom thread is interesting.

 

Surely there's not just one Asian in every school? Not just one nerd? Not just one non-American? Surely there would be an abundance of people who weren't permitted to hang out with this small core of self-appointed "cool" people, or wouldn't want to hang out with them - or liked some of the people in the in-crowd, but weren't prepared to whore themselves out to be part of that crowd? In a situation like that I would not have been interested in guys who were part of that crowd, because going out with someone like that would have meant hanging out with a bunch of people who most probably wouldn't be my cup of tea. So in terms of finding a boyfriend, I would have been looking for a guy who felt similarly to me, and I'd have been looking for him in amongst that vast crowd of marginalised people.

 

In my experience it's not like the movies where you have 4 people who are so popular they run the school. In reality the schools generate multiple intertwining clicks that each have their own set of "cool" people. Often this includes a good chunk of the student body leaving only smaller subset groups as outcasts.

 

Also there are many people like me that fit into multiple clicks, but never really developed a close affiliation with a particular one. At the time that left me feeling as an outsider... though others considered me to be popular.. .

 

I've been trying to fathom why men in America seem embittered about and hostile to women to an extent which I really haven't seen reflected anywhere else. Where this obsession with putting American women down and talking about them as though every American woman out there is a bitchy, self important, former High School Prom Queen. I wonder if there are a lot of men out there who, well into their adult lives, struggle with the concept that most women they encounter were probably on the fringes of High School (whether by choice or because they didn't fit the in crowd's criteria). I wonder if why it would be such a struggle to accept the possibility that those women wouldn't regard dating a man who was marginalised in High School as "settling".

 

There are some really dejected guys on this forum... but in real life it's just not that way.

 

I guess I somewhat fit the parameters of your question. If you consider distrusting the same as embittered... then that would fit my feelings on the subject. I didn't have much interest in the Prom Queen back in highschool and I dont now either. I realized very soon after graduating that my views and attitudes about myself in highschool were somewhat delusional. I had it much better than I had assumed. I believe for whatever reason many people are like this and they don't understand that others had the same issues.

 

Now to the meat of your question. Why put American Women down? Well... There is a HUGE negative stereotype perpetuated against men who date foreign women... unless those women are western european. My thought is why not talk about why it's worth it to suffer the stereotype. A large part of that is due to a lack of quality women here. While this is denigrating as a whole it should be recognized that it's not an absolute statement. There are many fantastic women here... it's just they don't outnumber the poor quality ones. So... oddly enough the denigration is both an unintended consequence, and also a deliberate statement. (I know.... it's contradictory)

[Woggle]

I'm not denying anything about the kids. I do agree that if and when a divorce happens, women typically get the upper hand.

 

However, 'who initiated divorce' says nothing about who was 'good and faithful' and got kicked out. For all you know, plenty of women initiated divorce because despite being good and faithful wives, their husbands blatantly and perpetually cheated on them.

 

Women cheat just as much as men do and in many cases it because a woman was bored or wanted to find herself despite the fact that her husband is a good and faithful man. I know people make cheating out to be a male thing but women are just as bad. Look at this board.

[Woggle]

High school has nothing to do with why some men are so bitter. It comes from what men to deal with when they become adults and get out there in the dating world. They see that everything they were taught was a big lie and it makes them very jaded. Also I admit that some men who marry mail order brides want a submissive and docile woman but after dealing with a few hellish relationships and maybe even a marriage were they treated like garbage can you blame a man for wanting that? Can you blame a man for wanting to be respected and valued instead of being put down and treated like scum?

[Els]

Women cheat just as much as men do and in many cases it because a woman was bored or wanted to find herself despite the fact that her husband is a good and faithful man. I know people make cheating out to be a male thing but women are just as bad. Look at this board.

 

Yes, Woggle, we know. It works both ways. So that is disadvantageous to men how, again?

[Woggle]

Yes, Woggle, we know. It works both ways. So that is disadvantageous to men how, again?

 

Men still get blamed whether we are the cheater or the cheated on.

[flying]

Men still get blamed whether we are the cheater or the cheated on.

 

And then men throw around that statistic about how more women file for divorce...whether they filed because they were the cheater or the cheated on.

 

Works both ways.

 

Point being, men, as a group, are not victims any more than women are.

 

Seriously - you just CANNOT have it both ways.

[Els]

Men still get blamed whether we are the cheater or the cheated on.

 

And women don't get blamed?

 

For the love of God, Woggle, I know men in some relationships get screwed over, but there is no proof or even general consensus that they get screwed over more than women in other relationships do. If you can't provide any logical arguments beyond 'Men get cheated on', 'Men get blamed', etc, I really don't think there's any point to this. :/

[Pyro]

And then men throw around that statistic about how more women file for divorce...whether they filed because they were the cheater or the cheated on.

 

Works both ways.

 

Point being, men, as a group, are not victims any more than women are.

 

Seriously - you just CANNOT have it both ways.

 

Bravo!

 

No one has it better or worse overall than the other.

 

FTR when my mom and Dad split my Dad was awarded custody of us kids.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Yes, Woggle, we know. It works both ways. So that is disadvantageous to men how, again?

 

In my oh so humble opinion... the scale is tipped in divorce. If you look at the system as a whole, women gain and men lose.

 

That is the reason for the imbalance in who files for divorce. If not for that fact it would be much closer to even. Actually if that imbalance were corrected many marriages would not end in divorce, the couple may actually put effort into the marriage.

[flying]

 

That is the reason for the imbalance in who files for divorce.

 

No. It isn't.

[Els]

In my oh so humble opinion... the scale is tipped in divorce. If you look at the system as a whole, women gain and men lose.

 

That is the reason for the imbalance in who files for divorce. If not for that fact it would be much closer to even. Actually if that imbalance were corrected many marriages would not end in divorce, the couple may actually put effort into the marriage.

 

I have mentioned that I agree the scale is tipped in divorce. Unfortunately, divorce is something I believe most women hope they won't have to go through anyway, advantage or no advantage.

[Disillusioned]

"What is the source of all the bitterness here?"

 

If you have to ask, you'll never know.

[flying]

I'm going to elaborate on my earlier answer.

 

UF, you and Woggle like to bring in your personal experiences and those of your friends to support your assertions, which include stating that American women tend to be more this and that, or women like to screw men, or promiscuous women don't make good committed partners.

 

So, fine. I'll bring in my personal experiences and those of my friends to support some assertions. Starting with this nonsense about who files, which is just so freaking ridiculous. In my opinion, of course.

 

EVERY ONE, and I mean EVERY ONE, of my female friends who has filed for divorce did so because her husband cheated on her.

 

This includes myself.

 

They did not try to "get something" out of the divorce, they just wanted the marriage to be over because the guy had ****ed them over. I didn't make a dime off of him, I just wanted out.

 

Period.

 

That is not to say women wouldn't ever file to make some cash money. But as people are so fond of doing on these boards, I'm going to say it sure hasn't happened IN MY EXPERIENCE.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I have mentioned that I agree the scale is tipped in divorce. Unfortunately, divorce is something I believe most women hope they won't have to go through anyway, advantage or no advantage.

 

That's true... very few women get married with the expectation of divorce down the road.

 

However each time you say something like that you should qualify it by ending the sentence with.... right now.

 

She isn't thinking of divorce... right now.

 

But that changes... it always changes. Just thinking back to how things went for me. Over time all the things that were a husbands fault just piled up... I didn't make enough money, worked too late, didn't clean house enough, I didn't force the sun to shine on her properly... ect.

[dreamingoftigers]

Women cheat just as much as men do and in many cases it because a woman was bored or wanted to find herself despite the fact that her husband is a good and faithful man. I know people make cheating out to be a male thing but women are just as bad. Look at this board.

 

The stats I have seen show men cheating about double what women do.

[Untouchable_Fire]

The stats I have seen show men cheating about double what women do.

 

Only in Iran.

 

Most numbers are fairly inaccurate, because they are based on polls. It is an assumption by many who interpret the data that even in anonymous polls women don't tend to admit to cheating... which fits issues found with other sexual related polls.

 

Marriage counselors show that when a couple hits counseling and there is cheating involved 60% of the time it is the wife cheating and 40% the husband. However it might be that men are just more likely to try to work it out.

 

All in all... I was unable to find what I consider reliable data. The only thing we can say for certain is that in the U.S. there is a dramatic increase in female cheating... from what % to what % is unknown.

[Mme. Chaucer]

i just Googled "men vs. women infidelity." The entire first page of results claim that men cheat more than women in marriage.

 

I'm NOT claiming that these stats are accurate or that they're not. Seems like it is pretty easy to find stats regarding this issue to support whatever stance an individual has taken.

[TwilightSky]

LS does seem to be filled with bitterness, also supreme (and, most likely, unfounded) arrogance on the part of some members. It's not really a healthy place for people to come and heal from past relationship issues, or whatever. This is just my perspective, disregard if necessary.

[Surrealist]

LS does seem to be filled with bitterness, also supreme (and, most likely, unfounded) arrogance on the part of some members. It's not really a healthy place for people to come and heal from past relationship issues, or whatever. This is just my perspective, disregard if necessary.

 

Disregard? Probably one of the best comments on this thread.

[Woggle]

The majority of married women I know are cheating, despise their husbands, hate being married or are at least bored and look at him as more of a brother than a lover. I see this over and over again and these are mostly good men.

[Pyro]

The majority of married women I know are cheating, despise their husbands, hate being married or are at least bored and look at him as more of a brother than a lover. I see this over and over again and these are mostly good men.

 

and the majority of married guys I know are cheating, despise their wives, hate being married or are at least bored and look at her as more of a sister than a lover. I see this over and over again and these are mostly good women.

 

See how that works?

[Els]

I really don't think it's any point debating with Woggle over gender issues until he manages to realize that what he sees isn't a valid substitute for facts and statistics. It really is starting to sound like this to me:

 

A: The world is round, Woggle, not flat

Woggle: Well, the ground I live on is flat, so the world is flat.