What is the source of all the bitterness here?

[hydorclops]

...If you think people who drop into a deviant lifestyle because they can't see anything better for themselves aren't marginalised by society, it could be that you're relying too much on Hollywood and the Internet for your information..

Ok, Yes the deviant lifestyle of an outlaw type leads to being marginalized, and it's a type of bad boy.

 

Some of these men will have the attitude towards women you describe, for the reasons you give, but certainly not most. Doesn't this group also include rapists and serial killers? You did use the word psychopath.

 

But you can be an outsider without being a violent psychopath or even a "bad boy". And outsiders also can identify and sympathize with the political reality of being a woman, just as you say.

[Taramere]

I used to be one of those troubled kids and I defended women in a similiar way until I realized that a good deal of them will turn on a man in a heartbeat if it suits her needs. I will never become a manipulator or abuser because that is just not me but I don't stick my neck out for people anymore only to have them try to chop it off

 

I think your childhood experiences mean that from your perspective, women will always be the abusers. The guilty party in any drama. Logically you might be able to see that that's not necessarily a fair perspective nor an accurate one....but I think on an emotional level it's probably how you will function for the rest of your life. Something you'll always struggle with.

 

Your triggers might be very different from those of a man whose childhood contained endless incidents involving his father coming home drunk and beating up his mother. What you might regard as sticking your neck out for a woman who doesn't deserve it might, for that other guy, involve having a kneejerk response to a situation that has triggered unpleasant memories from his childhood.

[Taramere]

Ok, Yes the deviant lifestyle of an outlaw type leads to being marginalized, and it's a type of bad boy.

 

Some of these men will have the attitude towards women you describe, for the reasons you give, but certainly not most. Doesn't this group also include rapists and serial killers? You did use the word psychopath.

 

The majority of prisoners aren't psychopaths, but psychopaths are certainly more generously represented amongst the prison population. In the work I did years ago, I very rarely encountered a young person who gave me that chilling "this is a psychopath" feeling. One of the few I did encounter who gave me that chilling feeling was a girl.

 

But you can be an outsider without being a violent psychopath or even a "bad boy". And outsiders also can identify and sympathize with the political reality of being a woman, just as you say.

 

Yes. I think anybody who has ever felt marginalised from the mainstream can, if they have a reasonable amount of empathy, feel for others who find themselves in that situation.

[Els]

Firstly, let me just say that I agree with the spirit of the opening post. No point whining about one thing or another, when it evidently can't be changed.

 

But in the spirit of the other posts... Seriously, can't you guys even see all the benefits of being male? No? I'll list them for you then.

 

1. Women admittedly have a slight advantage during the early courting phase, it's true. The onus to approach typically lies with the men. Plus, most men at least offer to pay for the first date or so.

 

BUT. How about the attraction phase, before courtship begins? Women are generally more attracted to intelligence, success, ambition, financial security than men, and men more attracted to appearance than women (those of you who believe that all women are as attracted to appearance as men, go start your own thread. this is the generally accepted consensus - just look at this board as an example).

 

Now, success, ambition, and financial security are things that everyone should aim for, for themselves. Achieving one's dream career and making a nice comfortable living out of it is something that everyone, male and female, would benefit from immensely. It's just that for men, it serves the secondary purpose of gaining a mate as well.

 

Women, on the other hand, have to put in boatloads of extra time and effort (and make no mistake, it takes a LOT of time and effort AND cash to look really attractive. Don't believe me, ask around) into their appearance to get a mate easily, in addition to achieving success and financial security for themselves.

 

How does looking hot benefit a person, other than through receiving additional attention from prospective mates? Whatever small benefits it may provide to self are certainly less than the benefits from a blooming career and lots of money.

 

2. Women are typically more disadvantaged in marriage and building a family. We typically need to choose between a career and a family more so than a man would. Besides the fact that women are the ones undergoing pregnancy, labour, and all the postpartum effects, society generally expects women to be the primary childcarers. Not only that, but in many parts of the world women are the main household keepers as well, in addition to working in order to keep the family above the poverty line.

 

3. Plenty of other advantages in life as well. Less risk of crime and violence committed against you. Greater physical strength. NO PERIODS AND FLUCTUATING HORMONES. No menopause. Less risk of sexual-organ related cancers. Do I need to go on?

 

To be perfectly honest, I have found very few advantages to being a woman. In fact, I can only name three off the top of my head right now: having a great guy who pampers and takes care of me in ways that I believe few women would for their men, having the option to freelance as long as I make enough to take care of myself because society doesn't expect me to be the main breadwinner, and more erogenous zones/better orgasms.

Edited October 27, 2010 by Elswyth

[Tim The Enchanter]

 

3. Plenty of other advantages in life as well. Less risk of crime and violence committed against you.

 

That isn't actually true. Men, especially those aged between 16 - 24, are much more likely to be victims of violent crime. That's true in the UK, and I don't see why it should be much different in any other developed nation.

 

http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1109chap3.pdf

[Els]

Let me clarify. 'Victim of unprovoked, random crime by strangers'. Meaning you can walk down a dark alley at night and you'd have less chance of getting mugged or raped. I suspect that your demographic of young men are really those involved in gangfights, which, although sad, is not a 'male' disadvantage per se because you can prevent them without staying home unless escorted and using a spiked female condom.

[Tim The Enchanter]

Let me clarify. 'Victim of unprovoked, random crime by strangers'. Meaning you can walk down a dark alley at night and you'd have less chance of getting mugged or raped. I suspect that your demographic of young men are really those involved in gangfights, which, although sad, is not a 'male' disadvantage per se because you can prevent them without staying home unless escorted and using a spiked female condom.

 

Nope. Still random, still unprovoked. As a man, you can get attacked at any time if you go out for a drink. You can get attacked for supposedly looking at someone's girlfriend. You can get attacked for accidentally spilling someone's drink.

 

Granted, rape is an awful thing, but it also happens to men in some cases.

[Els]

Granted, rape is an awful thing, but it also happens to men in some cases.

 

How often, compared to women?

[Tim The Enchanter]

How often, compared to women?

 

You're missing the point. You said "Less risk of crime and violence committed against you". You didn't say "less chance of being raped", in which case I wouldn't have argued with you. My point is that women are less likely to be victims of Violent Crime, and I mean that in the broadest sense as used by the British Crime Survey.

[flying]

You're missing the point. You said "Less risk of crime and violence committed against you". You didn't say "less chance of being raped", in which case I wouldn't have argued with you. My point is that women are less likely to be victims of Violent Crime, and I mean that in the broadest sense as used by the British Crime Survey.

 

I take your point, but I do think one could fairly say that there's less chance of violent crime being committed against men because they're men, than against women because they're women.

[Els]

I agree that I worded it poorly. Flying got my point.

[Tim The Enchanter]

I take your point, but I do think one could fairly say that there's less chance of violent crime being committed against men because they're men, than against women because they're women.

 

Absolutely. Domestic abuse is much more likely to be man abusing the woman, and has been since time immemorial.

[EasyHeart]

I think one of the big reasons there is so much hostility (I'd actually prefer the word "conflict") around here is that we all make generalized statements about men and women, but men and women have different definitions of "men" and "women".

 

To put things in high school terms:

 

* When a woman refers to "men" she means the captain of the football team whose daddy owned a Porsche dealership.

* When a woman refers to "women" she means the chubby girl who plays flute in the marching band and didn't get asked to prom.

 

* When a man refers to "women" he means the head cheerleader and Homecoming queen.

* When a man refers to "men" he means the skinny kid in the back row whose name nobody can ever remember.

 

When you look at things in that context, all the ridiculous generalizations that each gender makes about the other are pretty much true!

[Els]

I think one of the big reasons there is so much hostility (I'd actually prefer the word "conflict") around here is that we all make generalized statements about men and women, but men and women have different definitions of "men" and "women".

 

To put things in high school terms:

 

* When a woman refers to "men" she means the captain of the football team whose daddy owned a Porsche dealership.

* When a woman refers to "women" she means the chubby girl who plays flute in the marching band and didn't get asked to prom.

 

* When a man refers to "women" he means the head cheerleader and Homecoming queen.

* When a man refers to "men" he means the skinny kid in the back row whose name nobody can ever remember.

 

When you look at things in that context, all the ridiculous generalizations that each gender makes about the other are pretty much true!

 

Rofl! I think this is a pretty interesting post.

[flying]

I think one of the big reasons there is so much hostility (I'd actually prefer the word "conflict") around here is that we all make generalized statements about men and women, but men and women have different definitions of "men" and "women".

 

To put things in high school terms:

 

* When a woman refers to "men" she means the captain of the football team whose daddy owned a Porsche dealership.

* When a woman refers to "women" she means the chubby girl who plays flute in the marching band and didn't get asked to prom.

 

* When a man refers to "women" he means the head cheerleader and Homecoming queen.

* When a man refers to "men" he means the skinny kid in the back row whose name nobody can ever remember.

 

When you look at things in that context, all the ridiculous generalizations that each gender makes about the other are pretty much true!

 

Haha, I agree with this. Very true.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, he wasn't really a bad boy. As I recall from the film, he was the victim of bullies, who didn't have the kind of support from his parents that might have helped him to steer him down a path away from victimhood. There seemed to be a message in that film that he didn't have a strong role model in his father...and that peculiarly American crisis of manliness seems to have played a central role.

You described in your previous post the strong, good hunter alphamale type. A man like that can easily fit in if he wants to. All he need to is go along with those who want to exploit his strengths. If he rebels against them, they'll marginalise him....but he will have chosen that. It's the difference between the victim who is marginalised because society considers him to be useless, and the man who is marginalised because he claims ownership over his own strengths, and doesn't give others free rein to exploit them. Who would prefer to be marginalised than give in to them.

I do believe that men who have to fight to assert ownership over themselves and their strengths, against other people who try to exploit them for their own ends, have that bit better an understanding of what women face from others who feel some sense of entitlement towards them.

 

Your theory is that marginalization creates a bond of understanding between bad boy type men and women?

 

I Asian men are marginalized by our society... and women treat them like they are radioactive in the dating arena. Nerds are marginalized in highschool, yet that also fails to create widespread attraction.

 

I really don't think what makes this so common is mutual marginalization. In fact... I think most males who are marginalized generally get ignored by women. Which makes sense... they have low success rates.

 

I really think that what makes the "bad boy" archetype attractive is the perception of strength, confidence, individuality, and need.

[Els]

That's untrue. I love the confident, mature variety of nerd, and I know quite a few women who do too.

[Woggle]

I sympathize that women have to deal with those things but we don't you try and see it from our point of view. Do you know how scary it is for a man that even the most devoted and faithful husband and father can be thrown out of his family as easily as counting to ten?

[Els]

That's not a gender point, Woggle. Plenty of devoted and faithful wives and mothers can be thrown out of their families easily as well. It isn't limited to just men as you think.

[Woggle]

That's not a gender point, Woggle. Plenty of devoted and faithful wives and mothers can be thrown out of their families easily as well. It isn't limited to just men as you think.

 

It doesn't happen nearly as much and these women do not often lose their kids. I know so many divorced who have to fight tooth and nail to have a relationship with their kids when their only crime was being boring to their wives.

[Els]

It doesn't happen nearly as much

 

Show me the statistics.

[Woggle]

Show me the statistics.

 

75% of divorces are initiated by women and in an overwhelming number of cases custody goes to the mother.

[Woggle]

I just thought of something. What Taramere says about women feeling a kindred spirit with a bad boy might be true. What initially attracted my ex and was the fact that we were both outcasts against the world. It was only when my best friend was murdered and I took a long hard look at my life and decided to make something of myself that her and I started going in opposite directions. I bought a house and started to build and she stayed a trouble soul but turned the dysfunction up all the way. When I got my act together she stopped relating to me.

[dreamingoftigers]

75% of divorces are initiated by women and in an overwhelming number of cases custody goes to the mother.

 

But what are the standard circumstances for initiating divorce and how many guys simply lay the kids on the mom

[somedude81]

C'mon guys, if survival of the human race depended on the looks of men, the human race would have died out long ago.

Ah, but you forgot one thing.

 

Up until very recently, women were literally property and their wants and desires didn't matter.

 

I'm betting that women always cared about the looks of the man, but it didn't matter at all. They simply didn't have a choice.

 

Now in the present, men and women are equals and women can get what they want. Which leads to many men becoming frustrated. This is a very new phenomenon because in the past, a man could just take a woman. Which often occurred.

 

Whether this leads to the death of the human race will have to be seen.