What is the source of all the bitterness here?

[Woggle]

Then by your own definition, Woggle, YOU are not commitment-minded. Period. That's just all there is to say about that.

 

I am commitment minded but at the same I had just gotten out of a horrible marriage and I had been abused by women my entire life. I admit fully it was about power and partly getting back at women.

 

If a woman can look at herself and admit that her sexually free phase was about power and getting back at men and take the proper steps to change it then yes I will consider them to be worthy of love. So many women become like this after a horrible relationship or a horrible marriage or they have daddy issues but will never admit to it and wear it like a badge of honor. I am here fully admitting that my one experience with a FWB relationship was about power. I wish more women were that honest.

[Taramere]

I can kind of agree that we have a near unachievable vision of manliness.... but your last paragraph is just ridiculous.

 

The idea that the "bad boy" type is marginalized by society is heinously wrong. You have this picture of James Dean in your head. Yeah... that was 60 years ago, but as you yourself pointed out to me in more than one thread... attraction is biological.

 

There seem to be quite a few guys on this thread in training as mind readers. Please don't hold Hollywood's notion of a "rebel" up to me as a depiction of what I find attractive in a man.

[Untouchable_Fire]

There seem to be quite a few guys on this thread in training as mind readers. Please don't hold Hollywood's notion of a "rebel" up to me as a depiction of what I find attractive in a man.

 

I'm not trying to point out what you in particular find attractive... I'm putting a face to the description of a marginalized bad boy you have in your post.

 

Your mind is far too mysterious and contrary for me to read.

[LiveWell]

Umm... A crack whore?

 

Yes at least he might get laid.

[Taramere]

I'm not trying to point out what you in particular find attractive... I'm putting a face to the description of a marginalized bad boy you have in your post.

 

Well, he wasn't really a bad boy. As I recall from the film, he was the victim of bullies, who didn't have the kind of support from his parents that might have helped him to steer him down a path away from victimhood. There seemed to be a message in that film that he didn't have a strong role model in his father...and that peculiarly American crisis of manliness seems to have played a central role.

 

You described in your previous post the strong, good hunter alphamale type. A man like that can easily fit in if he wants to. All he need to is go along with those who want to exploit his strengths. If he rebels against them, they'll marginalise him....but he will have chosen that. It's the difference between the victim who is marginalised because society considers him to be useless, and the man who is marginalised because he claims ownership over his own strengths, and doesn't give others free rein to exploit them. Who would prefer to be marginalised than give in to them.

 

I do believe that men who have to fight to assert ownership over themselves and their strengths, against other people who try to exploit them for their own ends, have that bit better an understanding of what women face from others who feel some sense of entitlement towards them.

[hydorclops]

Taramere,

 

I too like your first two paragraphs (envy of reproduction, women as primary care giver, etc.), but don't get your final paragraph about "bad boys". Marginalized bad boys? I don't get that.

 

To me bad boys, even felonious outlaws, simply represent strength. A different style, but the same basic type as the wealthy business man.

 

What do you mean by marginalized bad boy?

[dreamingoftigers]

Seriously, your avatar (I mean dreaming of tigers NOT untouchable fire = no homo) has a very attractive woman in it (assuming it's a picture of yourself of course), when I read some of your posts sometimes I get the sense that you are just trying to take a position as an advocate for someone else, it's hard for me to connect the picture to the person writing the posts because, just looking at your pic, it would never occur to me that not being physically attractive would even be an issue for you.

 

I guess I'm naive or something.

 

But, just because a woman is heavier does not mean she isn't attractive. There are skinny/average sized people who have faces one can barely stand to look at. Dreamingoftigers is attractive in my opinion.

 

It sounds like maybe I should meet some folks via loveshack LOL

:love:

[Star Gazer]

I don't think men's envy/jealousy of women is a big secret.

 

If you only knew how jealous many women are of men! We're in the same boat!

 

Been dating pretty much solid since my divorce. I'm very much an equal-opportunity dater in that I've taken out the stunningly attractive as well as the average as well as the bigger girls... I have yet to meet a woman who didn't have something special that I could find enjoyable, regardless of their level of attractiveness.

 

I'm very much the average guy in the looks department and just standing or in pics... I don't inspire second looks or even first looks from women in most cases. I don't have the head of hair I used to, nor am I physically cut... only hwp. I do workout thrice a week, I smell good, and i try to dress well. But I would say.. I get some play from most any woman I want to get to know.

 

Guys... try to imagine being in prison; further consider that you are physically smaller than 80% of the men that share your space. How could you NOT live in fear that all these larger, more powerful physical specimens want to violate you? Your whole world would become about protecting yourself by any means at your disposal! Most women go through their entire lives living with this knowledge. Granted, for women in the real world the threat is not nearly so amplified, but it is there.

 

In my experience... (limited as it is)... guys; women are seeking safety from the constant pressure of giving up the sex to men who only want sex from them. Yes, they want someone who is attractive to them. Whether it's a fwb deal, or dating, or a full-blown relationship... they want a safe place to land.

 

If they know on a visceral level that you wouldn't intentionally harm them (nice guy), have the ability to protect them from the crazy drunk guy who invariably makes advances at the bar (strong guy), have the means to provide fun and interesting on a date (self-sufficient guy), and they enjoy being in your presence (fun guy); then you have it made.

 

Ladies; if I could make an appeal... decide what traits are most important to you and select your dates accordingly. Yes... you get to choose... take a chance once in a while on those guys who you're not 100% sure are a match. You may find something very special. (This goes for guys too). You risk very little by joining a new prospect for a drink or a coffee; 99.99% of us would never even consider anything sinister where women are concerned.

 

Yes, we want to have sex with you; if we didn't, we wouldn't have come over to talk to you or written you that clever note online. This is not a bad thing. Sex is good. Seriously, are you gonna waste your time on a man who doesn't want to have sex with you?

 

My last point... and this is my experience only; dating in my late thirties and early forties.... yeah, we've all been played, used, hurt, abused in one way or another. Yet, we survived it all, and here we are.. we're out there... seeking a mate. It's totally okay to protect yourself emotionally, and you should... but when someone comes along that you could be crazy about... allow yourself to feel it, put it out there. If you live your life so scared and afraid of being hurt, nobody gets to experience real joy either; that is the real shame in a world where everyone thinks everyone else is out to get something more than they will give.

 

-Dazed

 

Brilliant!!!!

 

Girls are so awesome... truly they are!

 

So are men!!!

[brainygirl]

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like men say they want average when they mean they want top physical form. They say they want smart when they really want "into the things I am into at all times".

 

I don't have a laundry list of demands in a man. I don't know many women who do. I just feel like the overwhelming message I've gotten (a lot of it here) is that I am worthless because of things I cannot change. It makes me sad and I honestly don't understand how people who seem to want love in their lives can be so mean all the time.

 

I'm not super fat, I'm not ugly, I don't treat people badly or use them for money, status and material possession. Why can't I just be loved?

[dreamingoftigers]

I never said women have it easy! But women don't have to wrestle with conflicting definitions of manhood. I phrased my statement that way because this thread seemed to be a discussion between men.

 

Women have to deal with conflicting definitions of femininity, which I'm sure is difficult, but I can't offer any perspective on it.

 

I find that the pressure is on us more then ever! We are supposed to be successful, ambitious and career-oriented, or we are losers. We are supposed to be the perfect mothers (Dr. Phil et al.), we are supposed to be the perfect homemakers (Martha Stewart, all of the cooking shows, decorating shows etc etc etc keeping a clean house etc.). We are supposed to be the perfect and attractive mate indulgent in her man's wishes (porn, fashion, surgery, Cosmopolitan, you name it). It is constant media about where we are not measuring up. CONSTANT. "Have hair like Jennifer Aniston" "Get J-lo's body" "make love like a porn star" "What he really thinks of you." They say that we are more tired than ever because we go to work and then take care of the traditional household responsibilities.

 

It isn't just discussed, it is literally rammed down our throats daily. You cannot go into a public space without being surrounded by it, you cannot turn on the tv or radio without hearing it blasted. They say consumer demand drives it, but the demand is artificial. A lot of major corporations study what are insecurities are and then use "disturb" messages to promote them. They know that when someone feels disturbed or insecure that they are 30 times more likely to purchase something, and there are so many options for women to fail at, now more then ever.

[LisaLee]

I find that the pressure is on us more then ever! We are supposed to be successful, ambitious and career-oriented, or we are losers. We are supposed to be the perfect mothers (Dr. Phil et al.), we are supposed to be the perfect homemakers (Martha Stewart, all of the cooking shows, decorating shows etc etc etc keeping a clean house etc.). We are supposed to be the perfect and attractive mate indulgent in her man's wishes (porn, fashion, surgery, Cosmopolitan, you name it). It is constant media about where we are not measuring up. CONSTANT. "Have hair like Jennifer Aniston" "Get J-lo's body" "make love like a porn star"...

 

Don't forget we are also suppose to be back down to our pre-pregnancy weight in just a couple of days after giving birth. Women have no pressure from the media whatsoever!!

[Woggle]

Women have pressure too. I think gender relations can improve a lot if both sides start understanding and empathizing more with what each other deal with but it has to come from both sides.

[dreamingoftigers]

I am commitment minded but at the same I had just gotten out of a horrible marriage and I had been abused by women my entire life. I admit fully it was about power and partly getting back at women.

 

If a woman can look at herself and admit that her sexually free phase was about power and getting back at men and take the proper steps to change it then yes I will consider them to be worthy of love. So many women become like this after a horrible relationship or a horrible marriage or they have daddy issues but will never admit to it and wear it like a badge of honor. I am here fully admitting that my one experience with a FWB relationship was about power. I wish more women were that honest.

 

So weird, I was just going to say that I thought fwb and sleeping around for women was quite often linked to an attachment pain. Being scared or not wanting to attach because of being hurt before in some way, yet trying to have some of that feeling, if even just for a little bit, without as much risk.

[Woggle]

For players of both genders it is very much about gaining power and the upper hand in relationships. A few of my friends have become players and while I love them like brothers they all hate women and look at sex as a power play. Female sexual empowerment is simply a female version of this. I don't want to be involved with a woman that thinks like this and part of me regrets the one FWB relationship I had because it messed both of us up even more.

[brainygirl]

For players of both genders it is very much about gaining power and the upper hand in relationships. A few of my friends have become players and while I love them like brothers they all hate women and look at sex as a power play. Female sexual empowerment is simply a female version of this. I don't want to be involved with a woman that thinks like this and part of me regrets the one FWB relationship I had because it messed both of us up even more.

 

I think there are as many motives for casual sexual relationships as there are people who do them. Some may be about power, but it could also be wanting sex without working on building a relationship.

 

I think anyone can decide its not for them. But I don't like the idea of blanket statements such as "all . . . "

[skydiveaddict]

 

• Men have to work harder than women to find a date.
  
• Women have it easier when it comes to getting their sexual needs met (big one)
  
• A woman who had casual sex in the past is an issue
  
• Men have to go through many rejections, while the woman can be passive, therefore reserving her pride.
  
• A man has to supposedly be drop gorgeous to attract a woman, but a woman just has to look 'ok'.
  

 

 

All good points. (And true) i don't think there is any bitterness involved.

[dreamingoftigers]

• Men have to work harder than women to find a date.
  
• Women have it easier when it comes to getting their sexual needs met (big one)
  
• A woman who had casual sex in the past is an issue
  
• Men have to go through many rejections, while the woman can be passive, therefore reserving her pride.
  
• A man has to supposedly be drop gorgeous to attract a woman, but a woman just has to look 'ok'.
  

1. I often find that men who say this are the type that spend a lot of time on the couch hoping for a woman to fall from the sky.

 

2. HA! All of my friends and me have a bitch of a time getting getting the sex we want, there is lots of sex out there, but not a whole lot of it is good. (I personally don't even like vibrators).

 

3. I don't know what to say about this one.

 

4. Lots of girls simply wait and wait and wait and wail about being not asked out.

 

5. Men don't need to have a looks requirement AT ALL. Often I find myself attracted to men who do not look attractive by societal standards, weight varies etc. Often I find those men who are attractive by societal standards to be unattractive to me. If fact, more often than not I find them unattractive to me. Emotional attachment makes someone far more attractive to me, when I develop a bond with someone by sharing stories etc. all of a sudden those blue eyes seem bluer and those paw-hands are more touchable and I want to hold those hands. Even bald is cute. Positive feelings make men so much more attractive to me.

[dreamingoftigers]

C'mon guys, if survival of the human race depended on the looks of men, the human race would have died out long ago.

[Anela]

For players of both genders it is very much about gaining power and the upper hand in relationships. A few of my friends have become players and while I love them like brothers they all hate women and look at sex as a power play. Female sexual empowerment is simply a female version of this. I don't want to be involved with a woman that thinks like this and part of me regrets the one FWB relationship I had because it messed both of us up even more.

 

I don't think they're using it to gain power over another person, they just aren't giving their power away when it comes to the other person, via their emotions (not that that happens in monogamous relationships - although the PUA's act as though "one-itis" is men giving their power away to the woman they love). You can retain your own power, whilst not taking it away from others...

[Anela]

I find that the pressure is on us more then ever! We are supposed to be successful, ambitious and career-oriented, or we are losers. We are supposed to be the perfect mothers (Dr. Phil et al.), we are supposed to be the perfect homemakers (Martha Stewart, all of the cooking shows, decorating shows etc etc etc keeping a clean house etc.). We are supposed to be the perfect and attractive mate indulgent in her man's wishes (porn, fashion, surgery, Cosmopolitan, you name it). It is constant media about where we are not measuring up. CONSTANT. "Have hair like Jennifer Aniston" "Get J-lo's body" "make love like a porn star" "What he really thinks of you." They say that we are more tired than ever because we go to work and then take care of the traditional household responsibilities.

 

It isn't just discussed, it is literally rammed down our throats daily. You cannot go into a public space without being surrounded by it, you cannot turn on the tv or radio without hearing it blasted. They say consumer demand drives it, but the demand is artificial. A lot of major corporations study what are insecurities are and then use "disturb" messages to promote them. They know that when someone feels disturbed or insecure that they are 30 times more likely to purchase something, and there are so many options for women to fail at, now more then ever.

 

Don't forget we are also suppose to be back down to our pre-pregnancy weight in just a couple of days after giving birth. Women have no pressure from the media whatsoever!!

 

I put a thumbs-up in the subject line, for both of you.

 

I just read a quote from Scarlett Johansson, on the pressure of working in Hollywood. This gorgeous girl is only 25, and is already using anti-aging products on her skin.

[Anela]

 

5. Men don't need to have a looks requirement AT ALL. Often I find myself attracted to men who do not look attractive by societal standards, weight varies etc. Often I find those men who are attractive by societal standards to be unattractive to me. If fact, more often than not I find them unattractive to me. Emotional attachment makes someone far more attractive to me, when I develop a bond with someone by sharing stories etc. all of a sudden those blue eyes seem bluer and those paw-hands are more touchable and I want to hold those hands. Even bald is cute. Positive feelings make men so much more attractive to me.

 

Same here...

[Taramere]

Taramere,

 

I too like your first two paragraphs (envy of reproduction, women as primary care giver, etc.), but don't get your final paragraph about "bad boys". Marginalized bad boys? I don't get that.

 

To me bad boys, even felonious outlaws, simply represent strength. A different style, but the same basic type as the wealthy business man.

 

What do you mean by marginalized bad boy?

 

I used to work with children who had problems. A lot of them would go on to a life of offending. In some cases, their problems stemmed from them being intelligent and sensitive, in an environment where these things are a handicap rather than being strengths. I can think back to numerous conversations I had with some of those young people...and I can assure you that often they are highly tuned into other people.

 

I was being harassed (sexually) by a male member of staff in that place for the first few months I was there. I wasn't sure how to deal with it, and hadn't reported it. I felt that he was being so blatant about it, and that I was reacting with such obvious discomfort, that surely everyone could see what was going on. Nothing was said, until one of the boys shoved him against the wall one day for suggesting that as it was a hot day, I should take my top off.

 

If a boy in that environment reacts so violently and angrily when female member of staff being creeped on by a male member of staff, you can be pretty sure he's not driven by politically correct motives. You could argue that it's a male dominance thing....but this was a strongly emotional reaction. My guess is that he'd witnessed a lot in the way of human beings exploiting and abusing eachother, and had the associated trauma of witnessing sexual and/or physical abuse. It's generally accepted that abuse in childhood is one of the pre-determining factors in an individual going on to offend. If a guy from that environment has the physical alphamale qualities people talk so much about, he's going to be of particular interest to people who want to groom him into a criminal lifestyle. Just because they're physically strong doesn't mean that they're not emotionally in a place where they're very easy for others to exploit. There's a big difference between someone in that situation, and someone carefully cultivating an aura of psychopathy in the hope that it will result in them getting laid more frequently.

 

Edit - sorry, you don't explicitly talk about carefully cultivated psychopathy, but that's what I think of when I read postings on the Internet from Nice Guys who want to cultivate a bad boy image. If you think people who drop into a deviant lifestyle because they can't see anything better for themselves aren't marginalised by society, it could be that you're relying too much on Hollywood and the Internet for your information..

Edited October 27, 2010 by Taramere

[LiveWell]

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like men say they want average when they mean they want top physical form. They say they want smart when they really want "into the things I am into at all times".

 

No men just want someone who will love them and take care of them, like MOM + sex.

 

I don't have a laundry list of demands in a man. I don't know many women who do.

 

You may tell yourself that but most women do have a lot of demands of men, some realistic, but many unrealistic. Men may tell their friends they want a "10" but in reality most aren't really all that demanding.

 

 

I just feel like the overwhelming message I've gotten (a lot of it here) is that I am worthless because of things I cannot change.

 

Except that I'll bet if you actually look through your posting history and the responses to your posts, you won't be able to find even a single post from anyone accusing you of being "worthless," whether because of things you can change, or things you can't change.

 

If you feel "worthless" that's a personal self esteem issue which you should get counseling for. No one should criticize you because you feel that way. However if you falsely accuse other people--and in this case, you're basically accusing the entire world--of telling you you're worthless, then you're in the wrong. Your lack of self-esteem does not give you the right to make false accusations against anyone else. That's simply a form of blame shifting to avoid personal responsibility for trying to address your lack of self esteem in a constructive manner.

 

 

It makes me sad and I honestly don't understand how people who seem to want love in their lives can be so mean all the time.

 

Your problem here, frankly, is that now you're being dishonest. People, at least people at loveshack, aren't being mean to you. That's simply a false accusation. It's not right, and it doesn't matter that you lack self esteem. That doesn't give you the right to make false accusations against other people.

 

I'm not super fat, I'm not ugly, I don't treat people badly or use them for money, status and material possession. Why can't I just be loved?

 

Do you want a frank and honest answer?

 

It's obviously NOT because of your physical appearance, and even you are forced to admit that. Yet, you keep falsely attributing your lack of success in love to people supposedly not liking your physical appearance, even while you simultaneous admit that you KNOW it can't be that.

 

It's because there are aspects of your personality that are cr*ppy. It's as simple as that. No one is going to want to be with someone with an unpleasant personality.

 

As evidenced by your postings at love shack, at least that I've seen, you lack self esteem and you make false accusations against other people rather than do something constructive about your lack of self esteem such as get effective counseling for yourself.

 

You're extremely argumentative about certain issues and IMO you frequently refuse to even entertain any one else's opinion as possibly being valid, even for them, if you happen to disagree with it. Yet you don't perceive yourself as being excessively argumentative.

 

It's not so much that you have particular undesirable personality traits, it's that there's an inadequate connection between the way you present yourself, the way you think you are perceived by others, and the way you actually ARE perceived by others.

 

You act b*tchy as perceived by others/men but you don't perceive yourself as doing so. Therefore you can't change your behaviors and hence how you are being perceived by others.

 

No man is going to want to stick around very long with a woman who always has to be right, is always complaining, and is always feeling sorry for herself. (And I imagine the exact same would be true if the genders are switched, so this is not intended as a sexist comment at all.)

 

Look, I can be very argumentative and confrontational but I will be the first to admit that. Argumentative and confrontational people can have real problems in establishing and maintaining relationships. It's a fact, it applies to me, it applies to you, it's generally applicable.

 

You are very confrontational too, certainly IMO based on your posting, but the difference between me and you is you don't want to acknowledge it and you don't want to attribute any of your relationship problems to this aspect of your personality.

 

Yes you have the right to your opinions and you have the right to express them pretty much any way you want to. That doesn't change the fact that people who tend to treat every interaction with another person as a battle often have less social success than handling things a little bit less confrontationally.

 

In your case, you need to scale the "attitude" WAY back.

[Tim The Enchanter]

No men just want someone who will love them and take care of them, like MOM + sex.

 

Physical attraction is the number one priority for the vast majority of men. It's not rocket science. Pretty girls who are in shape get more dates than plain, fat girls.

[Woggle]

I used to be one of those troubled kids and I defended women in a similiar way until I realized that a good deal of them will turn on a man in a heartbeat if it suits her needs. I will never become a manipulator or abuser because that is just not me but I don't stick my neck out for people anymore only to have them try to chop it off