What is the source of all the bitterness here?

[Art_Critic]

But women don't have to wrestle with conflicting definitions of manhood.

 

Since when do men have to deal with definitions of manhood as a problem in life ?

 

I certainly know what and how to act to be a man and it has never been a problem in my life to have to be redefined.

[LiveWell]

I know that my words won't change anything. I am just venting my frustration while trying to explain to people why I am shouting.

 

Venting to a certain extent can be cathartic. However, past a certain point--and I think you are clearly well past that point--it's no longer cathartic, but rather, becomes a continual self-reinforcement of negative emotions.

 

 

No I am not handicapped. But I am clinically depressed.

 

Clinical depression can be counted as an emotional "handicap" and can be every bit as impairing as losing the use of a limb. Depressed people tend to see every aspect of their lives through the clouded lens of their depression. I'm sure you know that already on an intellectual basis but you have not internalized that concept on an emotional basis.

 

The trick for you is to be able to modify your behaviors in ways that you intellectually know will be helpful without regard to your subjective/emotional feelings, because as long as you are in a depressed state, your subjective emotional feelings will mislead you. You need to feel your feelings, but then you have to ignore them, somehow, and act based on objective criteria of problem-solving in the real world.

 

One of the behaviors you need to modify, and I think Nate is driving at this, is the urge to complain. As noted above you are well beyond "catharsis" and each and every act of complaining or whining is self-reinforcing of your clinical depression. It is imperative that you engage in "positive" behaviors even if your subjective internal state is telling you that the "positive" behaviors are useless or futile. Positive behaviors include mental behaviors such as trying your best to cut off any negative ruminating, be it about women or any other issue in your life. If you feel negative thoughts overcoming you, you have to distract your mind somehow. Physical activity of some kind is good for this.

 

 

I have low self-esteem and confidence and have below average social skills. I am "managing" my way though life but it's not fun. I never had a relationship.

 

This is actually too broad of a statement. Unless you have lived as a literal hermit you have had numerous "relationships" with other people, men and women. Maybe not deeply emotional, romantic, nor sexual. But you have had human interaction and therefore social interactions with other people, even if only family members, fellow students, co-workers, etc.

 

Many people have "below average" social skills, even well below average. But since they are "skills" they can be subject to improvement.

 

You improve your social skills by NOT trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

 

 

 

I work out several times a week. It's not a quick process and I am seeing results.

 

Good. This is positive action and you are starting to see positive results. This is something that you need to try to remember--your RESULTS are causally related, in the real world, to your EFFORTS, i.e. your BEHAVIORS. It does not matter how you feel about your results because you are depressed and therefore your subjective judgments about your own life are not objectively valid, for the most part. That is the nature of depression.

 

 

Whether having a totally fit body will completely change how women see, will have to be seen at a later date. I'm at least a year away from reaching my goal and I don't want to have to wait that long to get a girl into me.

 

I will take you literally at your word. If your objective is to start a relationship with "a girl" then you can easily do that in far less than a year. And that should be your objective since you have never had that kind of relationship with a girl. Any girl. "A girl" does not mean a particular girl or a particularly hot girl. Just an average, ordinary plain vanilla regular girl. There are plenty of them and they will talk to you if you simply talk to them. They are certainly not beneath you and you are not too good for them, so talk to them, and try to get a date with one or more of them. Part of your negativity of depression is looking at others negatively, more negatively than they deserve. You are looking for flaws in others, rather than positives, just as you do in yourself, because of your depression. It is a function of your disease.

 

Believe me I can be a pretty cynical b*stard but in reality I consider myself a realist. That's what you need to start trying to be: a realist. You are in no position to be an "idealist" by striving for a "10" or some hypothetically super attractive woman, because even if somehow you got one, you wouldn't know what to do with her.

 

The only "standard" you should have at this point, for a potential girlfriend, is someone who is willing to talk to you and perhaps consider you in the same light. Appearance does not matter, intelligence does not matter, social status does not matter, agreeability does not matter, integrity and values do not matter.

 

Don't worry--since the broad swath of people in the world are going to be more or less acceptable even chosen at random for your purposes, it's very unlikely you will select an evil serial killer woman just by sheer random luck, there just aren't that many of them out there.

 

The only caveat would be to try to avoid anyone with a similar serious personality disorder such as clinical depression because these things can be self-reinforcing if two people sharing the same problem get together. On the other hand if both of you are getting the proper treatment for it maybe it could work out.

 

Frankly are you even getting treatment for your depression? It doesn't really sound like you're getting adequate meds or therapy based on the way you express yourself. Check with your psychiatrist about this.

 

 

I haven't been just sitting on my ass and complaining. I am actively trying to meet girls. I join clubs, I regularly talk to girl, I ask them out, I get rejected. I get bitter and depressed.

 

I don't believe you simply because even for shy guys who are non-depressed, what typically happens is they will get their eye on maybe one or two women at a given venue or in a given situation, spend hours getting the courage to talk to the one or two girls, and then maybe never get around to it, or if shot down, stop trying.

 

By sheer numbers if you asked out say 25 girls at random at least one or two would give you a phone number or have coffee with you. How many girls have you actually asked out in the past 30 days? I mean a specific number of women that you specifically asked out on a real date.

[Taramere]

Wow! Thank you Taramere, that was a eye opener!

 

Thank you (and Flying, too). I know that I tend to prefer men who have a rebellious or subversive element...and I often used to wonder what the source of that attraction was. I'd read posts here berating women for preferring "bad boys" and wonder if I had some masochistic leaning.

 

The truth is that I just relate to them better. I think we all have a combination of masculine and feminine qualities, in differing balances. What I often get from this board is a sense of horror that this should be the case. "Modern men have been emasculated by women".

 

You wonder....well, when did this start exactly? What day of what year, of which century? Because from what the history books tell me, Adam has been feeling castrated by Eve since the moment stories about humanity began to be told. A few hundred years ago, there were stories of witches keeping men's penises in boxes. More recently, feminists have been the culprits. At what point does Adam look in the mirror and ask "am I being castrated by my own psyche?" Which Gorilla Theater covered pretty well a few posts back.

 

If being a man, or being a person for that matter, means anything, it's the ability to sift through those influences, pick a path, and walk it with integrity, self-respect, and respect for others. Ultimately, those who are emasculated are emasculated because they choose to be be. Don't like it? Choose otherwise.

[DazednConfused]

Just a couple of things that might help the OP, and Somedude, and anyone else struggling to get attention from women... once again, my own experience talking... but it works for me.

 

Physical attractiveness is subjective, body language is not.. you broadcast your frustration and desperation and don't even know it. I was right there too some time ago... in your own mind (dear god, don't claim to be, or even imply), but walk into and carry yourself as if you own the venue. "pffft, i own this joint; nothing that happens here can intimidate me!" Of course, common courtesy to the staff, etc, is a must. But this one simple thing will square your shoulders, raise your eyes, and send a much stronger message.

 

Fear of approach is very real, and rejection is likely. Yup. That's how it is. An excersize I use... I walk up to women I have absolutely NO intention of hitting on, etc... and offer a harmless compliment and go on my way, without even expecting or waiting for a reply. "I just wanted to tell you... you have the most stunning green eyes" - gone. "That hairstyle really works on you" - gone. Just do this walking down the street, at work, whatever... you will notice enough positive reaction that it builds confidence. Most people cultivate their highlights and it means the world to simply be told it's working.

 

Put both together... and approach the girl you want to get to know without fear. Leave your search for a "girlfriend" at the door, stop trying to get laid, just pay attention... find common ground and talk with her for a bit. If she shoots you down, no worries, you own the joint... if she looks great but speaks like a bubble-head, no worries, you own the joint... if the conversation flows, ask her out!

 

Girls are so awesome... truly they are!

 

-Dazed

[MrNate]

It just hurts sometimes feeling the opposite gender is not attracted to you and you feel like your a real good person with allot of love to live but because you dont fit some ideals your left out in the cold..

 

Your also told how women are just looking for love and personality and confidence is what counts but you find out theyre just as shallow and petty as Men when looking for a mate..

 

So this all boils up to sometimes saying some hurtful things that you may not mean but you hit a boiling point and you explode and say things out of character..

 

Plus it seems women on here are more coddled when they have this issue..

 

Example: Women says Men arent attracted to her people respond its theyre loss shes a beautiful person and one day a guy wll fidn out how amazing she is

 

Man says the same thing hes told to man up show some balls stop whining,work out and get a six pack or make allot of money so women will be attracted to you

 

PJ let's be honest here. How many women here do you really see ragging on a male poster when he's feeling down?

 

My view is they don't rag on him because he's feeling down, but the get upset because more often than not, he's unfairly labeled the female gender in some way.

[EasyHeart]

Thank you (and Flying, too). I know that I tend to prefer men who have a rebellious or subversive element...and I often used to wonder what the source of that attraction was. I'd read posts here berating women for preferring "bad boys" and wonder if I had some masochistic leaning.

 

The truth is that I just relate to them better. I think we all have a combination of masculine and feminine qualities, in differing balances. What I often get from this board is a sense of horror that this should be the case. "Modern men have been emasculated by women".

Wait. So you are attracted to emotionally unavailable men because your ancestors were oppressed by the white male patriarchy?

[tincanman99]

All these guys are bitter because they over analyze it instead of doing something about it. Sure its not equal but what is equal in life - NOTHING. Do the best you can, ignore it and move on.

 

The way I look at it, its no different than looking for a job. If you have the skills and rap you get the job, if you dont, you dont get the job. End of story.

 

As for your personal life that means the following:

 

-If you are fat, join a gym, hire a trainer, lose weight and get fit.

-If you have no conversational skills - read and learn to be well rounded in a lot of things not just video games and football.

-If you dress like a slob, than go get some more fashionable clothes that fit.

-If you have no self confidence than work on having self confidence - there are tons of books out there.

-If you are shy, well you need to break it. There are lots of ways to do it including some that are not politically acceptable to say .

 

But I bet if you change these things you will have a lot more opportunities than you do now.

 

Now after you do all these things and you still have issues, I dont know what to tell you.

 

Its better to be pro-active and do something about than sitting around complaining about how great women have it.

[Anela]

Once again, the old stereotype that all men want is sex, and all women want is love.

 

Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised by the men who want to fall in love with one woman (I'm replying as one who also agreed with that comment). There are so many men of varying ages, who go on and on about wanting sex, wanting to sleep with different girls, have multiple relationships, etc.. that I was wondering how many men out there are looking for the same thing that I am.

 

I don't have much experience when it comes to romantic relationships, because of my previous fears with men - generated in my childhood, thanks to my experiences with violence and a sociopath (despite my experiences with sweet, good, attractive boys who were my friends, and interested in more with me) -and thanks to this whole PUA thing that has exploded.

[GoodOnPaper]

Actually, I've been pleasantly surprised by the men who want to fall in love with one woman.

 

You shouldn't be surprised at all. Unfortunately, the temperament and qualities that make a guy well-suited for falling in love with one woman can make him very ill-suited for the initial attraction phase.

[Anela]

You shouldn't be surprised at all. Unfortunately, the temperament and qualities that make a guy well-suited for falling in love with one woman can make him very ill-suited for the initial attraction phase.

 

I've had those feelings build as I get to know someone. The only times I've had feelings of instant lust, were the times in which I'd met someone that I would click with - it was an intuitive thing.

 

It would be nice to not have to be surprised - who knows how many great guys I've missed out on, as friends or otherwise, due to my own fears, and their projecting an image that's unattractive to me (that made me feel unsafe - my issues are definitely wrapped up in it, I'm not solely blaming them).

[Woggle]

Woggle. These are your words from that very thread:

 

 

 

Do not minimize these. Even you buy into it, and finding someone to love you and not judge you for your past is a big deal. "Merely scrutiny and people talking about her?" Or merely saying that she's not worthy of a loving relationship and is fundamentally flawed? I mean, really.

 

Obviously, you know this yourself. Let's all be honest here.

 

Those are my words and I stand by them. She is still not legally punished for sleeping around. It might be harder to find a commited mate but if a woman doesn't value long term commitment anyway why would she care? Yes men use certain criteria in looking for a mate but so do women.

[Taramere]

Wait. So you are attracted to emotionally unavailable men because your ancestors were oppressed by the white male patriarchy?

 

I prefer to think of them as selective about who they make themselves emotionally available to. DifficultHearts, if you will.

[flying]

Those are my words and I stand by them. She is still not legally punished for sleeping around. It might be harder to find a commited mate but if a woman doesn't value long term commitment anyway why would she care? Yes men use certain criteria in looking for a mate but so do women.

 

Because you are making an unfounded assumption that someone who is willing to have a FWB is someone who doesn't care about long-term commitment in general.

 

And please with the legal argument, Woggle. Just upthread there was a discussion about men having to deal with issues of what's expected from a man nowadays - an issue that I'm quite aware is near and dear to your own heart. So that is what I was initially responding to - the concept that men have a harder time philosophically than women, dealing with expectations and demands from society and the opposite sex - it's ridiculous, and refuted every single day on these boards.

 

Don't be disingenuous. I could go back and find other arguments you've made in other threads over the years on this topic that are unrelated to legalities, but why bother? I trust in your own self-honesty on this one. I'm sure you get my point.

Edited October 26, 2010 by flying

[Woggle]

Yes men have to deal with our own issues but the worst are the legal ones. You never see me complaining about misandrist commercials or any of that because my view is that men should just fight fire with fire. There is a bunch of misogynistic music out there that the same people who laugh at these commercials want to ban.

 

All women face for sleeping around is social dissaproval. They have to deal with people's opinions but in the end it doesn't really hurt them.

 

If women don't care about commitment or any of that why do they care if men don't want to commit to them anyway? If wife or girlfriend is not a position they seek then why get emotional over men's criteria. I don't have what it takes to be an astronaut but I don't want to be one anyway so I don't care. Is approval on every level really that important to women?

[flying]

 

All women face for sleeping around is social dissaproval. They have to deal with people's opinions but in the end it doesn't really hurt them.

 

This is nonsense. And as I keep saying, if societal opinion doesn't matter, then why should it matter what's expected of or said to men?? And yet...you're not one to let those things go. You are being disingenuous.

 

If women don't care about commitment or any of that why do they care if men don't want to commit to them anyway? If wife or girlfriend is not a position they seek then why get emotional over men's criteria. I don't have what it takes to be an astronaut but I don't want to be one anyway so I don't care. Is approval on every level really that important to women?

And again. This is not about approval on every level - that is a strawman argument. But being told that if you have casual sex then you are labeling yourself as undatable has a very real consequence.

 

And AGAIN. Being willing to have a FWB does NOT equate to not caring about commitment. This is ANOTHER strawman argument.

 

Did it equate to that for you?? What about the other men in the world? Plenty of dudes posting on these very threads have had sex without intention of commitment, yet claim they want it/have it with that special person. Including YOURSELF.

 

When does this hypocrisy end??

Edited October 26, 2010 by flying

[Woggle]

Not being able to find a boyfriend or a husband is not a real consequence. If women do not care about these things why do they care of commitment minded men look elsewhere?

 

I encourage men all the time to stop caring about what society thinks and do them. The difference is that men who color outside of what is expected of men and even many who do still get cheated on and still have their wives want to walk because of some dumb reason and they still have their wives use the court system to make their lives hell. The whole divorce court system is set up to reward these women. This goes way beyond social dissapproval. If all men had to worry about was the opinion of a woman they are not interested in having a relationship with anyway I would say we would have it pretty damn good.

[flying]

Not being able to find a boyfriend or a husband is not a real consequence. If women do not care about these things why do they care of commitment minded men look elsewhere?

 

I encourage men all the time to stop caring about what society thinks and do them. The difference is that men who color outside of what is expected of men and even many who do still get cheated on and still have their wives want to walk because of some dumb reason and they still have their wives use the court system to make their lives hell. The whole divorce court system is set up to reward these women. This goes way beyond social dissapproval. If all men had to worry about was the opinion of a woman they are not interested in having a relationship with anyway I would say we would have it pretty damn good.

 

You are not listening to what I'm saying. Ah well.

[Woggle]

You are not listening to what I'm saying. Ah well.

 

Yes I am listening. Many of these women who do FWB type of arrangements say they do not want a relationship so why get mad when a man looks elsewhere? They want they want and commitment minded men want something different so live and let live.

[Hi.P.O'Crit]

The only "standard" you should have at this point, for a potential girlfriend, is someone who is willing to talk to you and perhaps consider you in the same light. Appearance does not matter, intelligence does not matter, social status does not matter, agreeability does not matter, integrity and values do not matter.

 

Umm... A crack whore?

[flying]

Yes I am listening. Many of these women who do FWB type of arrangements say they do not want a relationship so why get mad when a man looks elsewhere? They want they want and commitment minded men want something different so live and let live.

 

Dude. You JUST POSTED about a FWB you had that you didn't care about. Does that make you unsuitable for your current relationship?

 

Dear God.

[Woggle]

Dude. You JUST POSTED about a FWB you had that you didn't care about. Does that make you unsuitable for your current relationship?

 

Dear God.

 

My wife knows about it and still chose me. This kind of thing does not seem to turn off women like it does men.

[flying]

My wife knows about it and still chose me. This kind of thing does not seem to turn off women like it does men.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that; I suspect that women are simply more accustomed to accept it.

 

Regardless. The point was about commitment-minded people, not their partners. People who have FWB = commitment-minded? Or not? You just can't have it both ways.

[Untouchable_Fire]

A while back, a poster on this board (dobler33) recommended a book called "The Wimp Factor" to me. It's an examination of the American preoccupation with this Hollywood macho brand of manliness, and the extent to which femininity is disparaged. I often read comments here about American men feeling emasculated because they don't feel that they're "allowed" to be men.

 

It's odd, because what I perceive from across the Atlantic is that far from not being allowed to be men, American men are under a great deal of pressure to conform to unrealistic standards of manliness. Ducat, like you, believes that jealousy of the feminine is a big factor in machismo...and reading his book, I found parts of his argument very convincing. In his view, though, the jealousy is a biological thing. Envy of the ability to reproduce. Resentment of early dependency on the mother. Confusion about what it means to be a man, given that the very young child's primary care-giver is female - and that a young child will model much of their behaviour on the primary care-giver. Social factors that may inspire envy might just be salt in that wound. In Ducat's view, predominantly male institutions of power were set up partly to even the score. To try to invoke in women those feeling of resentment and jealousy. A retaliatory gesture to punish women for being mothers, or potential mothers.

 

A lot of the hostile-towards-women commentary I read on this board give substance to his views. The female tendency to be attracted to subversive men or "bad boys" is one of the bones of contention here. I think what men often miss is that for hundreds of years women were marginalised by these social constructs of power that were devised by men. The rebels women were often magnetically attracted to were similarly marginalised...or they consciously decided to reject the establishment. From a perspective of a typically marginalised woman, those subversive men would seem closer to being kindred spirits. Perhaps they're also less inclined to experience envy and resentment of women, because they haven't fallen prey to that social pressure to drive all that's feminine out of themselves.

 

I can kind of agree that we have a near unachievable vision of manliness.... but your last paragraph is just ridiculous.

 

The idea that the "bad boy" type is marginalized by society is heinously wrong. You have this picture of James Dean in your head. Yeah... that was 60 years ago, but as you yourself pointed out to me in more than one thread... attraction is biological.

 

Attraction to "bad boy" types goes back over 120,000 years of evolution... and I assure you... those traits were not marginalized back then. Those traits were the marks of strong hunters and warriors. We have lived in a "modern" society for how long? 20 generations? How does that compare to the 10,000 generations before that.

[Woggle]

I don't necessarily agree with that; I suspect that women are simply more accustomed to accept it.

 

Regardless. The point was about commitment-minded people, not their partners. People who have FWB = commitment-minded? Or not? You just can't have it both ways.

 

Many women actually prefer it. My former FWB chewed up the sensitive men and spit them but wanted to settle down when she found a man who gave her a taste of her own medicine. Sensitive gentlemenfor the most part get nowhere with women.

 

FWB is the exact opposite of commitment minded so why do women get mad when commitment minded men look elsewhere?

[flying]

Many women actually prefer it. My former FWB chewed up the sensitive men and spit them but wanted to settle down when she found a man who gave her a taste of her own medicine. Sensitive gentlemenfor the most part get nowhere with women.

 

FWB is the exact opposite of commitment minded so why do women get mad when commitment minded men look elsewhere?

 

Then by your own definition, Woggle, YOU are not commitment-minded. Period. That's just all there is to say about that.