What is the source of all the bitterness here?

[In The Green]

Personally the only advantage I think women clearly have is being able to get laid whenever they want. But, most women care more about finding LOVE..so that doesnt help much.

 

 

This. We're sorry that you're angry that we can get sex easier than you but in all honesty it doesn't help us one bit. What we want is Love and that is 10 times harder to come by. At least you guys can buy sex if all else fails.

[Tim The Enchanter]

This. We're sorry that you're angry that we can get sex easier than you but in all honesty it doesn't help us one bit. What we want is Love and that is 10 times harder to come by. At least you guys can buy sex if all else fails.

 

Once again, the old stereotype that all men want is sex, and all women want is love.

[somedude81]

LOL I have never had a problem getting a new guy, I find it so funny when people blame their dating luck on their looks. I dated a real variety of guys with a range of looks (from the smoking hot guy ....

The above is an example of why men are bitter and jealous of woman.

 

A woman who admits that she's heavier, has no trouble getting a new guy and she's even gotten really hot guys.

 

While an average guy has to struggle super hard to get an average girl. Getting an attractive girl requires a miracle.

 

Somebody else pointed out that the problem is actually other guys who take what they can get, and this artificially raises the value of all women. So if a bigger woman can get just about any guy she wants; who's going to 'settle' for an average guy?

Women have too much power in your life... because you GIVE UP all of yours.

No, I don't.

 

My power is just very limited. All I can do is flirt, try to make her like me, and ask her out. She's the one who decides. There's more to say about power but it would take too long.

Who are you guys to decide who is 'average'?

 

Speaking of over-inflated egos, it seems that a lot of average guys hold out for the hotter girls.

That's a common misconception.

 

The average guys don't take long to learn that getting hotter girls is very difficult, so they lower their standards. The last three girls that I've had crushes on were not 'hot girls', just completely average in looks, and they all rejected me. So no, average guys are not holding out for hotter girls.

[somedude81]

There are some guys out there that would not date you because of your weight... those guys are called shallow.

You have got to be kidding me.

 

Shallow, is not dating women women who aren't D cups or bigger or only dating hot blondes. Not dating women who are heavier is no where near the same thing.

 

There is a difference between having requirements and being shallow. By your definition people who have any standards at all are shallow.

[LiveWell]

somedude,

 

I think the point is that even if your perceptions about the imbalance in the battle of the sexes is accepted as being more or less true, there comes a point where you have to recognize that continually shouting at the sea won't make the tide stop coming up.

 

IOW take your observations about your reality, or reality in general if you think it applies broadly, and modify your behaviors in accordance with the reality that is, not the way you think things should be or would like them to be.

 

I am not trying to disrespect anyone here who is physically handicapped, and I don't know if you are some dude (I don't think you are but you may not have said one way or the other).

 

There are people with some pretty severe physical handicaps who have to "manage" their way through their lives, including employment, school, and yes "relationships" regardless of how unfair it might be that they have an affliction which most other people do not share.

 

It might be perceived as totally unfair by them, but continuing to complain about the unfairness is simply not an effective problem-solving strategy.

 

I can tell you right now, with certainty, that there are a number of things you could be doing to improve your attractiveness to women (all "levels" of women) that you are quite clearly not doing.

 

One of the simplest (not easiest) is that you can do something like work out a lot and get a totally cut physique. I know this can be done because there are others who actually do it, some even posting on this website.

 

But it actually takes hard work to do training like that. You devote a couple hours a day to improving your fitness and physique. In 3 to six months you no longer have to be jealous of the hard body guys because you will be one of them.

 

Your relationships with women, and other people, will completely change. Because no matter how ugly or average you think you are, people, and women, respond very positively to a guy with a very nice physique. It's visceral, it's biological, it's organic, and they can't help it. We are biologically programmed to be attracted to, and want to mate with, persons of the opposite sex who look well adapted and fit for their environments. Our DNA "knows" that it will have the best chances for reproduction in the next generation if we try to mate with highly physical fit specimens.

 

You will also improve your self esteem and self image with all the positive feedback you will be getting.

 

Talking to women becomes very very easy when they are spontaneously walking up to you and wrapping their hands around your biceps or stroking their fingers across the front of your shirt to feel your six pack.

 

Of course you can't be a completely autistic individual even with a physique, but building yourself up physically is one of the simplest plans and it is one of the most effective because it is well known to actually work.

 

But you know what?

 

To get those results, you actually have to DO THE WORK.

 

 

You need to analogize this whole issue of getting dates/relationships/women with something like playing the piano.

 

You might have shorter fingers than someone else but you will never learn to play the piano by complaining that someone else is more naturally gifted than you. YOU have to practice and if you are less gifted it just means you have to put in more effort than someone with natural gifts in that area.

 

 

That is the "reality" that you are missing, and it is not a "reality" limited to dating and relationships, it is the "human condition." The sooner you get up to speed on what this really means, the better off you will be, in all areas of your life, not just w/the ladies.

[somedude81]

I think the point is that even if your perceptions about the imbalance in the battle of the sexes is accepted as being more or less true, there comes a point where you have to recognize that continually shouting at the sea won't make the tide stop coming up.

I know that my words won't change anything. I am just venting my frustration while trying to explain to people why I am shouting.

 

I am not trying to disrespect anyone here who is physically handicapped, and I don't know if you are some dude (I don't think you are but you may not have said one way or the other).

 

There are people with some pretty severe physical handicaps who have to "manage" their way through their lives, including employment, school, and yes "relationships" regardless of how unfair it might be that they have an affliction which most other people do not share.

 

It might be perceived as totally unfair by them, but continuing to complain about the unfairness is simply not an effective problem-solving strategy.

No I am not handicapped. But I am clinically depressed. I have low self-esteem and confidence and have below average social skills. I am "managing" my way though life but it's not fun. I never had a relationship.

One of the simplest (not easiest) is that you can do something like work out a lot and get a totally cut physique.

I work out several times a week. It's not a quick process and I am seeing results. Whether having a totally fit body will completely change how women see, will have to be seen at a later date. I'm at least a year away from reaching my goal and I don't want to have to wait that long to get a girl into me.

 

You need to analogize this whole issue of getting dates/relationships/women with something like playing the piano.

 

You might have shorter fingers than someone else but you will never learn to play the piano by complaining that someone else is more naturally gifted than you. YOU have to practice and if you are less gifted it just means you have to put in more effort than someone with natural gifts in that area.

I haven't been just sitting on my ass and complaining. I am actively trying to meet girls. I join clubs, I regularly talk to girl, I ask them out, I get rejected. I get bitter and depressed.

[Taramere]

I've been giving this some thought lately, and it seems like every single thread for some reason or another turns into a debate. I think I've finally figured out why.

 

I think, deep down, the issue stems from jealousy. Namely, jealousy of women from men. I mean lets think about it. How many times have we heard these phrases:

 

• Men have to work harder than women to find a date.
  
• Women have it easier when it comes to getting their sexual needs met (big one)
  
• A woman who had casual sex in the past is an issue
  
• Men have to go through many rejections, while the woman can be passive, therefore reserving her pride.
  
• A man has to supposedly be drop gorgeous to attract a woman, but a woman just has to look 'ok'.
  

A while back, a poster on this board (dobler33) recommended a book called "The Wimp Factor" to me. It's an examination of the American preoccupation with this Hollywood macho brand of manliness, and the extent to which femininity is disparaged. I often read comments here about American men feeling emasculated because they don't feel that they're "allowed" to be men.

 

It's odd, because what I perceive from across the Atlantic is that far from not being allowed to be men, American men are under a great deal of pressure to conform to unrealistic standards of manliness. Ducat, like you, believes that jealousy of the feminine is a big factor in machismo...and reading his book, I found parts of his argument very convincing. In his view, though, the jealousy is a biological thing. Envy of the ability to reproduce. Resentment of early dependency on the mother. Confusion about what it means to be a man, given that the very young child's primary care-giver is female - and that a young child will model much of their behaviour on the primary care-giver. Social factors that may inspire envy might just be salt in that wound. In Ducat's view, predominantly male institutions of power were set up partly to even the score. To try to invoke in women those feeling of resentment and jealousy. A retaliatory gesture to punish women for being mothers, or potential mothers.

 

A lot of the hostile-towards-women commentary I read on this board give substance to his views. The female tendency to be attracted to subversive men or "bad boys" is one of the bones of contention here. I think what men often miss is that for hundreds of years women were marginalised by these social constructs of power that were devised by men. The rebels women were often magnetically attracted to were similarly marginalised...or they consciously decided to reject the establishment. From a perspective of a typically marginalised woman, those subversive men would seem closer to being kindred spirits. Perhaps they're also less inclined to experience envy and resentment of women, because they haven't fallen prey to that social pressure to drive all that's feminine out of themselves.

[EasyHeart]

It's odd, because what I perceive from across the Atlantic is that far from not being allowed to be men, American men are under a great deal of pressure to conform to unrealistic standards of manliness. Ducat, like you, believes that jealousy of the feminine is a big factor in machismo...and reading his book, I found parts of his argument very convincing. In his view, though, the jealousy is a biological thing. Envy of the ability to reproduce. Resentment of early dependency on the mother. Confusion about what it means to be a man, given that the very young child's primary care-giver is female - and that a young child will model much of their behaviour on the primary care-giver. Social factors that may inspire envy might just be salt in that wound. In Ducat's view, predominantly male institutions of power were set up partly to even the score. To try to invoke in women those feeling of resentment and jealousy. A retaliatory gesture to punish women for being mothers, or potential mothers.

That sounds like a whole lot of over-thinking. Or that someone was trying to get tenure.

 

The problem American men have is that we are under intense pressure to conform to unrealistic and contradictory standards. We are pressured to be more "sensitive", but if we conform to that standard, then we are criticized for not being "manly". Boys are confused about what manhood means, and they often don't get much help from their dads because the dad is confused, or because the dad's message is contradicted by the mom and/or the media.

 

And I think women are just as confused as men as to what "manhood" means. The difference is that we have to try to figure it out; women just get to complain that we're not doing it right!

[stillafool]

Once again, the old stereotype that all men want is sex, and all women want is love.

 

I know. As a woman it makes me wonder why men even marry at all, since they can never love.

[stillafool]

The above is an example of why men are bitter and jealous of woman.

 

A woman who admits that she's heavier, has no trouble getting a new guy and she's even gotten really hot guys.

 

 

But, just because a woman is heavier does not mean she isn't attractive. There are skinny/average sized people who have faces one can barely stand to look at. Dreamingoftigers is attractive in my opinion.

[In The Green]

Once again, the old stereotype that all men want is sex, and all women want is love.

 

 

That is not what I said. At most, I inferred that you value sex more than we do or have a stronger drive for it. I hadn't used absolute language yet you are here. My last line was meant to be light but I can see that it was a failed attempt at humor.

[GorillaTheater]

That sounds like a whole lot of over-thinking. Or that someone was trying to get tenure.

 

The problem American men have is that we are under intense pressure to conform to unrealistic and contradictory standards. We are pressured to be more "sensitive", but if we conform to that standard, then we are criticized for not being "manly". Boys are confused about what manhood means, and they often don't get much help from their dads because the dad is confused, or because the dad's message is contradicted by the mom and/or the media.

 

And I think women are just as confused as men as to what "manhood" means. The difference is that we have to try to figure it out; women just get to complain that we're not doing it right!

 

My perception, right or wrong, is that men are "more emasculated" than they used to be, and no doubt outside influences come into play, whether from the media or elsewhere. But screw the outside influences. If being a man, or being a person for that matter, means anything, it's the ability to sift through those influences, pick a path, and walk it with integrity, self-respect, and respect for others. Ultimately, those who are emasculated are emasculated because they choose to be be. Don't like it? Choose otherwise.

[stillafool]

A while back, a poster on this board (dobler33) recommended a book called "The Wimp Factor" to me. It's an examination of the American preoccupation with this Hollywood macho brand of manliness, and the extent to which femininity is disparaged. I often read comments here about American men feeling emasculated because they don't feel that they're "allowed" to be men.

 

It's odd, because what I perceive from across the Atlantic is that far from not being allowed to be men, American men are under a great deal of pressure to conform to unrealistic standards of manliness. Ducat, like you, believes that jealousy of the feminine is a big factor in machismo...and reading his book, I found parts of his argument very convincing. In his view, though, the jealousy is a biological thing. Envy of the ability to reproduce. Resentment of early dependency on the mother. Confusion about what it means to be a man, given that the very young child's primary care-giver is female - and that a young child will model much of their behaviour on the primary care-giver. Social factors that may inspire envy might just be salt in that wound. In Ducat's view, predominantly male institutions of power were set up partly to even the score. To try to invoke in women those feeling of resentment and jealousy. A retaliatory gesture to punish women for being mothers, or potential mothers.

 

A lot of the hostile-towards-women commentary I read on this board give substance to his views. The female tendency to be attracted to subversive men or "bad boys" is one of the bones of contention here. I think what men often miss is that for hundreds of years women were marginalised by these social constructs of power that were devised by men. The rebels women were often magnetically attracted to were similarly marginalised...or they consciously decided to reject the establishment. From a perspective of a typically marginalised woman, those subversive men would seem closer to being kindred spirits. Perhaps they're also less inclined to experience envy and resentment of women, because they haven't fallen prey to that social pressure to drive all that's feminine out of themselves.

 

Wow! Thank you Taramere, that was a eye opener!

[PJKino]

It just hurts sometimes feeling the opposite gender is not attracted to you and you feel like your a real good person with allot of love to live but because you dont fit some ideals your left out in the cold..

 

Your also told how women are just looking for love and personality and confidence is what counts but you find out theyre just as shallow and petty as Men when looking for a mate..

 

So this all boils up to sometimes saying some hurtful things that you may not mean but you hit a boiling point and you explode and say things out of character..

 

Plus it seems women on here are more coddled when they have this issue..

 

Example: Women says Men arent attracted to her people respond its theyre loss shes a beautiful person and one day a guy wll fidn out how amazing she is

 

Man says the same thing hes told to man up show some balls stop whining,work out and get a six pack or make allot of money so women will be attracted to you

[flying]

 

And I think women are just as confused as men as to what "manhood" means. The difference is that we have to try to figure it out; women just get to complain that we're not doing it right!

 

And I think the bitterness comes from the simple and simply fallacious assumption that the other side has it "easier" somehow. Both sides face difficulties and could have empathy for each other. But I think a lot of men - yes MEN - on these boards assume that women have it so much easier than they do, thanks to feminism or dating rules or whatever whatever whatever. Sure, women make these statements too. But dear lord, the number of "women control the dating sphere" threads is just staggering. Boys, please. Get off your high horses. I respect that you face challenges of identity. So do women. Those challenges would be less painful if there weren't so much finger-pointing about it.

 

Obviously, there are plenty of ways in which women are equally constricted and judged - JUST LIKE MEN.

 

I mean, please, EH, you're posting over there on that utterly ridiculous FWB thread, so you know what it's like. Sucks to be a chick looking for sex, eh? But let's see...one must "accept reality," accept that you become less attractive to a potential husband and just suck it up, I suppose. Figuratively speaking only, of course.

 

Sigh.

 

Both men and women, as I said, face challenges, and expressing anger at the "other" because you're having difficulty is not only lacking in empathy, it's counter-productive.

 

Tara, that was an utterly brilliant post.

Edited October 26, 2010 by flying

[Taramere]

That sounds like a whole lot of over-thinking. Or that someone was trying to get tenure.

 

What's the point at which thinking becomes excessive? Would it be when the thinker's conclusions seem disagreeable?

 

The problem American men have is that we are under intense pressure to conform to unrealistic and contradictory standards. We are pressured to be more "sensitive", but if we conform to that standard, then we are criticized for not being "manly". Boys are confused about what manhood means, and they often don't get much help from their dads because the dad is confused, or because the dad's message is contradicted by the mom and/or the media.

 

And I think women are just as confused as men as to what "manhood" means. The difference is that we have to try to figure it out; women just get to complain that we're not doing it right!

 

Do you think that women get off scot-free? That they live their lives without ever being criticised for being too much of one thing and not enough of another? It's the nature of human beings to criticise, and to object when they find themselves the object of criticism.

[DazednConfused]

Been dating pretty much solid since my divorce. I'm very much an equal-opportunity dater in that I've taken out the stunningly attractive as well as the average as well as the bigger girls... I have yet to meet a woman who didn't have something special that I could find enjoyable, regardless of their level of attractiveness.

 

I'm very much the average guy in the looks department and just standing or in pics... I don't inspire second looks or even first looks from women in most cases. I don't have the head of hair I used to, nor am I physically cut... only hwp. I do workout thrice a week, I smell good, and i try to dress well. But I would say.. I get some play from most any woman I want to get to know.

 

Guys... try to imagine being in prison; further consider that you are physically smaller than 80% of the men that share your space. How could you NOT live in fear that all these larger, more powerful physical specimens want to violate you? Your whole world would become about protecting yourself by any means at your disposal! Most women go through their entire lives living with this knowledge. Granted, for women in the real world the threat is not nearly so amplified, but it is there.

 

In my experience... (limited as it is)... guys; women are seeking safety from the constant pressure of giving up the sex to men who only want sex from them. Yes, they want someone who is attractive to them. Whether it's a fwb deal, or dating, or a full-blown relationship... they want a safe place to land.

 

If they know on a visceral level that you wouldn't intentionally harm them (nice guy), have the ability to protect them from the crazy drunk guy who invariably makes advances at the bar (strong guy), have the means to provide fun and interesting on a date (self-sufficient guy), and they enjoy being in your presence (fun guy); then you have it made.

 

Ladies; if I could make an appeal... decide what traits are most important to you and select your dates accordingly. Yes... you get to choose... take a chance once in a while on those guys who you're not 100% sure are a match. You may find something very special. (This goes for guys too). You risk very little by joining a new prospect for a drink or a coffee; 99.99% of us would never even consider anything sinister where women are concerned.

 

Yes, we want to have sex with you; if we didn't, we wouldn't have come over to talk to you or written you that clever note online. This is not a bad thing. Sex is good. Seriously, are you gonna waste your time on a man who doesn't want to have sex with you?

 

My last point... and this is my experience only; dating in my late thirties and early forties.... yeah, we've all been played, used, hurt, abused in one way or another. Yet, we survived it all, and here we are.. we're out there... seeking a mate. It's totally okay to protect yourself emotionally, and you should... but when someone comes along that you could be crazy about... allow yourself to feel it, put it out there. If you live your life so scared and afraid of being hurt, nobody gets to experience real joy either; that is the real shame in a world where everyone thinks everyone else is out to get something more than they will give.

 

-Dazed

[Woggle]

I think that women can just as bad as men in thinking the other has it so much easier. I don't think most women would want to deal with what men do in family court.

[flying]

I think that women can just as bad as men in thinking the other has it so much easier. I don't think most women would want to deal with what men do in family court.

 

Well, of course they can, Woggle. And most men wouldn't want to deal with the restrictions of how much sex they're allowed to have before they become an undesirable partner.

 

But you agree with me: Men and women are JUST AS BAD at thinking the other has it easier.

 

But more men than women complain of this HERE.

[Woggle]

Well, of course they can, Woggle. And most men wouldn't want to deal with the restrictions of how much sex they're allowed to have before they become an undesirable partner.

 

But you agree with me: Men and women are JUST AS BAD at thinking the other has it easier.

 

But more men than women complain of this HERE.

 

The thing is that these restrictions are not legal. There is no law against women sleeping around. Most men do not view these women as commitment material and with good reason but there is no law. There are laws that can shove a father out of his children's lives the minute a woman snaps her fingers and says she is not happy. He can lose his home, his family and have to pay through the nose for a long time. A woman merely gets scrutiny and people talking about her.

[flying]

The thing is that these restrictions are not legal. There is no law against women sleeping around. Most men do not view these women as commitment material and with good reason but there is no law. There are laws that can shove a father out of his children's lives the minute a woman snaps her fingers and says she is not happy. He can lose his home, his family and have to pay through the nose for a long time. A woman merely gets scrutiny and people talking about her.

 

Woggle. These are your words from that very thread:

 

It is not a numbers game. It is the mentality a woman has towards sex and relationships. I know this is harsh but there is saying that says you can't make a ho a housewife and that is what it means. In most cases you can't take a woman who views sex as a sport and then all of a sudden turn her into a loyal and faithful partner.

 

Do not minimize these. Even you buy into it, and finding someone to love you and not judge you for your past is a big deal. "Merely scrutiny and people talking about her?" Or merely saying that she's not worthy of a loving relationship and is fundamentally flawed? I mean, really.

 

Obviously, you know this yourself. Let's all be honest here.

[donnamaybe]

FANTASTIC post Dazed!!!!! Just WONDERFUL!!!

[DazednConfused]

Why... thank you Donna; just my not-so-humble opinion.

[EasyHeart]

And I think the bitterness comes from the simple and simply fallacious assumption that the other side has it "easier" somehow. Both sides face difficulties and could have empathy for each other. But I think a lot of men - yes MEN - on these boards assume that women have it so much easier than they do, thanks to feminism or dating rules or whatever whatever whatever. Sure, women make these statements too. But dear lord, the number of "women control the dating sphere" threads is just staggering. Boys, please. Get off your high horses. I respect that you face challenges of identity. So do women. Those challenges would be less painful if there weren't so much finger-pointing about it.

 

Obviously, there are plenty of ways in which women are equally constricted and judged - JUST LIKE MEN.

 

I mean, please, EH, you're posting over there on that utterly ridiculous FWB thread, so you know what it's like. Sucks to be a chick looking for sex, eh? But let's see...one must "accept reality," accept that you become less attractive to a potential husband and just suck it up, I suppose. Figuratively speaking only, of course.

 

Sigh.

 

Both men and women, as I said, face challenges, and expressing anger at the "other" because you're having difficulty is not only lacking in empathy, it's counter-productive.

 

Tara, that was an utterly brilliant post.

I never said women have it easy! But women don't have to wrestle with conflicting definitions of manhood. I phrased my statement that way because this thread seemed to be a discussion between men.

 

Women have to deal with conflicting definitions of femininity, which I'm sure is difficult, but I can't offer any perspective on it.

[EasyHeart]

What's the point at which thinking becomes excessive? Would it be when the thinker's conclusions seem disagreeable?

No, it's when (1) they search for a complicated explanation and ignore the simpler; kind of a reverse Occam's razor or (2) when they clearly have a political axe to grind.

 

Do you think that women get off scot-free? That they live their lives without ever being criticised for being too much of one thing and not enough of another? It's the nature of human beings to criticise, and to object when they find themselves the object of criticism.

I never said anything like that. Perhaps some of the hostility on these boards comes from people eagerly searching for an excuse to be offended?