Being the ow multiple times.

[pureinheart]

Chris that really was an amazing post. Thank you.

 

Sometimes I think the bs that becomes the ow has the attitude of hey I lived through it so can his wife and I deserve happiness too after all I've been through.

 

For me this wasn't the case. Early on I learned the hard way not to let another person be your whole reason for existing. People will let you down, a lot.

 

I've seen a lot here and in RL who have placed their identitiy in another person and then when they are let down, in the case of an EMA, which IMO is a very big let down, the individual is devastated. Their whole life falls apart in some cases, or at least that's the way it's made to sound. Then the hate, anger, bitterness etc. surfaces and then the games begin.

 

I can understand the hurt, anger all of it, but it seems to eventually shape reasoning in a negative way.

 

I think it was you GG that said it hurt you to see the younger girls with way older MM, and in how you felt they were allowing the A to destroy their futures. I feel the same way with those who allow their identity to hang in the balance under the control of another person.

 

I don't get it, and don't want to.

[anne1707]

Sometimes I think the bs that becomes the ow has the attitude of hey I lived through it so can his wife and I deserve happiness too after all I've been through.

 

As somebody who was a BS before becoming a WS, this definitely was not the case as far as I was concerned. There was no feeling of retribution as a motivating factor for me.

 

However after my affair when we were in MC, my H's earlier affair was discussed and it did become very clear that I had not "dealt with it" as fully as I thought and there was still a lot of pain there. My H as good as gave me the opportunity to use his affair as at least a partial excuse for mine (out of his guilt for causing me pain) but I refused to do this. I still had control over and responsibility for my actions.

[pureinheart]

As somebody who was a BS before becoming a WS, this definitely was not the case as far as I was concerned. There was no feeling of retribution as a motivating factor for me.

 

However after my affair when we were in MC, my H's earlier affair was discussed and it did become very clear that I had not "dealt with it" as fully as I thought and there was still a lot of pain there. My H as good as gave me the opportunity to use his affair as at least a partial excuse for mine (out of his guilt for causing me pain) but I refused to do this. I still had control over and responsibility for my actions.

 

This is something to consider, it was a thought while reading your post as the same thing happened to me...I used to think I had a revenge A, but like you, had not dealt with it...so thank you for the insight ...valuable gold in this post!

 

For the the thing to consider...with both of you having EMA's, you can certainly understand each other...not that it was intended this way, although there is nothing that can be thrown in the others face (not that it would)...if it was it would be even.

 

Every once in awhile I wish I had stuck one of them out, but there was just too much that had happened. I'm glad you guys could work it out.

[bentnotbroken]

I didn't say I took it as an insult. It's just that I find it hard to swallow that another woman would be that cruel, of course you are probably going to argue that it is that cruel to the BS but yet I don't think most OW think about that when IT is happening. Yes later..........I get it, but I didn't then, well not the full impact of it.

 

I can't answer for anyone else, I can only give you my thoughts and opinions but yet it's hard to see another woman intentionally inflicted pain on someone she doesn't know.

 

 

BB, I think women like yourself who recognize some things are only about half(if that) of ow. I have seen the competition thing myself. I would love to see a study on the the attributes of some of those women. Are they narcissist, are they dealing with unexpressed hurt( I do believe hurting people hurt others), are they just that cruel in intention and deed. I see your situation as an ideal if there can be such a thing in these situations. I think you own every part of your actions and are dealing with the aftermath quite well.

[OWoman]

I recall another OW saying that she preferred MM because they suited her lifestyle better. I never could understand why a single guy looking for NSA wouldn't fit that bill, but that's just me...

 

Since I'm on record having said that, I'll assume this was directed at me, and will attempt to answer it again.

 

I have yet to meet a "single guy looking for NSA" who meets even my minimum criteria. The only "single guys looking for NSA" that I've met, throughout my life (I'm talking about in all contexts - not just men I met on the prowl; I'd include family, friends, colleagues, professional acquaintances and random others in that) have been either too young / immature; too narcissistic; too one dimensional; too superficial; not hot enough; deficient on the personality front; deficient on the passion front; deficient on the IQ front; deficient on the "now this I could fancy a bit of!" front; deficient on the personal hygiene front; rampantly Asperger's; too work-obsessed; too damaged from previous failed Rs; possibly a serial killer; or a combination of more than one of the above.

 

For some people, sex might just be sex, but for me - if it's not going to be crash-hot mind-melting hormone-frazzling sex, I'm not going to bother wasting my body fluids. A potential lover has to measure up to my standards - I don't do mercy sex. I can get more satisfaction out of masturbation, thanks all the same. I'm not that desperate that I have to compromise my standards just to get laid - I'd rather find someone who meets them and enjoy the experience, than settle for some sub-optimal guy just because he's single and it keeps other people's social mores happy.

 

Luckily now I have all that, and more, in my H :love:

[OWoman]

I just read of another poster who has been the ow more than once. I just have to ask why would you ever put yourself through that pain again. Did you believe this time it would end differently?What makes you want to do that again?

 

In my case:

 

* there was no pain, just gain.

* I would not have wanted a different ending, in each case. In all but one of them, I ended it on my terms when I wanted to end it, and the other case had a "different ending" in that it didn't end, but transformed into something else which is ongoing. :bunny:

* If I was to look for another R, I would choose the type of R that suited where I was and what I wanted at the time. If that was another A, then I'd choose that.

[Dexter Morgan]

What does this mean? It seems that you enjoy taking cheap shots at the expense of others. You haven't made a mistake?

 

sure, i've left the toilet seat up, accidentally burned steaks on the grill, made an mistake in writing the wrong entry in my checkbook.

 

problem is, cheating and sleeping with someone's spouse (unless spouse lied to OM/OW) is not a mistake. it was a conscious decision.

 

and no, I have NEVER done anything like that to anyone, and never will.

 

 

Sometimes we over step our boundaries...that's life.

 

not talking about overstepping boundaries, talking about someone's boundary being that they WILL mess around with other people. The person to whom I responded is just such a person evidenced by her own admission.

 

 

You seem to have a tendency to paint everyone with the same brush and how is that compatible with learning...growing?

 

again, I was replying to someone that messing around with other people's spouses are WITHIN her boundary, again, as evidenced by her own words.

[20Seconds]

curious do you think it's possible you also subconsciously wanted to hurt their wives.

 

I didn't give her a second thought to begin with but after 15 months she began to figure quite a lot in my thoughts, I found. Especially after the "I really want to be with you and I'll do whatever I can to come back to you" speech.

 

All of a sudden, instead of being pretty irrelevant, she became a challenge, and I didn't like the way I felt about it, not at all.

 

Another reason why it was best for me to walk away.

[Dexter Morgan]

What does this mean?.

 

oh, and what it means is that one person's boundaries are really far reaching to the extent that you could say there is no boundary.

[silverplanets]

Wow, Chris, amazing post.

Just amazing.

 

GG, I am confused about this as well, and my biggest confusion is the BS that becomes an OW... I don't get that at all, but a subject for another thread.

 

I recall another OW saying that she preferred MM because they suited her lifestyle better. I never could understand why a single guy looking for NSA wouldn't fit that bill, but that's just me...

 

Sorry, no answers, just joining you in the confusion.

 

Chris that really was an amazing post. Thank you.

 

Sometimes I think the bs that becomes the ow has the attitude of hey I lived through it so can his wife and I deserve happiness too after all I've been through.

 

Chris...this is highly evolved and shows amazing growth and introspection!

 

Hats of to you!

 

Yes, this is exactly how many in the mental health profession view affairs.

 

A symptom, not a cause or a cure for whatever is being avoided internally.

 

When people go on to multiple affairs, it is becomes a greater symptom of internal conflicts that are just being avoided with the hope that this next person will complete you and make you happy. Or, you may be seeking empowerment because life has left you feeling so powerless.

 

We can only make ourselves feel happy and loved first, before we can love and make happy another, IMHO.

 

Thanks guys ... I was just posting how I feel about the whole thing looking back now ... and the words were as they came out.

 

I really do feel that way about it all though ...

 

If I hadn't embroiled myself in the A drama then I could have reached where I am now 10 years ago ...

 

Still better now than 10 years later I suppose :-)

 

be well

Chris

[ladydesigner]

I don't think for me at least going from bs to ow that I ever wanted to hurt anyone, but maybe subconsciously after my ex h chose to stay with his ow I wanted to see if another man could ever or would ever choose me. I felt like my m and kids and history were so easily discarded, would I be worth the same to someone else who professed to love me. Not a viewpoint I ever considered up to now..but interesting and thought provoking as to my psyche all the same. Sucks I just ended up discarded twice though.

 

I can identify with this post. Even though my H did not leave for OW I still felt much this way going from BS to WS. I set myself up for the double rejection as well, as my XAP ended with me to stay with his significant other. Talk about Karma:laugh:

[GreenEyedLady]

What a thread.

 

BB, I'm with you. I don't know anyone who would be with a MM for the SOLE purpose of destroying her life.

 

When I was the OW, I didn't think about the BS, she wasn't part of our R.

 

As for people who find themselves dating MP as a rule, I think it probably comes down to several factors:

 

What type of man are they attracted to and how old are they?

 

Because let's face it, the older you get, the smaller the single pool. If you have kids and the person you're dating doesn't, a lot of incompatibility issues.

 

And the most attractive, successful men who do want to be married, are already married. The single/never been married ones have ISSUES and there's a reason they haven't married.

 

So it kind of sucks. And so humans fall in love with people they are attracted to and have proximity to. So while I would never advocate dating a MP, I get it. And considering that I've BTDT, I don't judge. Just be careful and guard your heart. And never settle.

 

GEL

[NoIDidn't]

GG did say "subconsciously", as in, not intentionally.

 

Many people realize that they were reacting to things from their subconscious later in life. Doesn't mean that they set out to intentionally hurt the wife, just that a part of them they weren't aware of wanted her hurt.

 

I've been the OW multiple times. The guys might not have been married, but it all felt the same to me, and likely the women they betrayed.

 

I had many subconscious demons haunting me. Among them, feeling like I never got what I wanted so why should "she". I didn't intend to be cruel, but the betrayed probably felt that I was.

 

Whether or not people admit to having issues, acknowledging that they have issues, or brush off their issues as having some sort of alternative morality beliefs doesn't change the fact that what drove and drives them to such behavior is dysfunction.

[jennie-jennie]

GG did say "subconsciously", as in, not intentionally.

 

Many people realize that they were reacting to things from their subconscious later in life. Doesn't mean that they set out to intentionally hurt the wife, just that a part of them they weren't aware of wanted her hurt.

 

I've been the OW multiple times. The guys might not have been married, but it all felt the same to me, and likely the women they betrayed.

 

I had many subconscious demons haunting me. Among them, feeling like I never got what I wanted so why should "she". I didn't intend to be cruel, but the betrayed probably felt that I was.

Whether or not people admit to having issues, acknowledging that they have issues, or brush off their issues as having some sort of alternative morality beliefs doesn't change the fact that what drove and drives them to such behavior is dysfunction.

 

The bolded above is not a fact, but indeed your opinion. People have different morals, and act accordingly. That is a fact.

 

You might personally believe that there is only one valid standard of morals. That is your opinion, but it doesn't make it so.

[OWoman]

Whether or not people admit to having issues' date=' acknowledging that they have issues, or brush off their issues as having some sort of alternative morality beliefs doesn't change the fact that what drove and drives them to such behavior is dysfunction.[/quote']

 

OTOH, uncritically accepting and following social mores indicates a far deeper level of dysfunction - a fear of standing out as "different", a fear of taking risks, an inability to think for oneself and form one's own judgments on matters, and generally being out of touch with one's own needs, desires and preferred modus operandi. Some societies favour - and "breed", through their education systems, etc - sheep, and others favour rebels. It seems that those of us who come from "rebel" societies are looked down as "dysfunctional" by those who come from "sheep" societies, but I can assure you that the reverse holds equally!

[OWoman]

ah wonderful just wonderful. you trample over whoevers relationship you want (not an insult you have admitted this many times) to get what you want for your benefit until you are done and ready to discard and that is a salute to independence? I don't consider needing multiple affairs with other womens husbands just for your pleasure as being independent.

 

I've never said I needed such - just that that suited me best. I have yet to need a R with anyone. That doesn't stop me enjoying them - but at the same time I know I can survive perfectly well without them.

 

If you want to attempt to pathologise my behaviour, at least aim for accuracy.

[2sure]

Its not a stretch, or a moral conundrum, or even a cultural thing to know that taking something from someone else is wrong, that to participate in hurting someone else anonymously is terrible, that if your activity must be hidden it shames you, or that doing something we know is wrong but justifying it to make ourselves okay with it...is not a good way treat others or yourself.

 

When a woman does these things, she hurts herself most.

If she cant see that, the only course of action is for her to think she is control of it and empowered by it. Its part of the culture of being vulnerable and/or being a victim .

[joey66]

I just read of another poster who has been the ow more than once. I just have to ask why would you ever put yourself through that pain again. Did you believe this time it would end differently?What makes you want to do that again?

 

Coming in late here. Is it okay if I go back to the original question?

 

If the first A didn't end badly, and some don't, then I totally get how someone could be the OW a second time. Once that line has been crossed initially, crossing it the second time has to be less difficult. Doesn't it?

[OWoman]

We were talking about the basic rights and wrongs of life - not law breaking.

 

My point was that whether or not Ted Bundy felt he was entitled to behave as he did because it was consistent with his own values is irrelevant because his behaviour was against the law, which he knew. It wasn't simply a choice of giving up his seat or not for a little old lady on the bus. He made a conscious choice to break the law - for which there are direct, and severe, consequences.

 

OTOH, choosing not to marry, choosing to have an open M, choosing not to have kids or choosing to have Rs with MMs are lifestyle choices based on one's personal values and circumstances. They are well within the law, whether or not they are condoned by all in society.

 

It's also not against the law to drive like an a55hole, even if in doing so you aren't violating any driving rules. An a55hole behind the wheel, law breaker or no, is still an a55hole.

 

Had one pull out in front of me this morning on purpose and made me slam on my breaks.

 

"Driving like an *******" would certainly be against the law (or at least, the law in my country - I'm not familiar with the laws in yours to make the claim that it applies there too) by my understanding of what driving like an ******* involves. But others might consider "*******-ish" that I consider perfectly acceptable (and which is perfectly legal) - like, say, slowing down at a yield sign and checking for oncoming traffic rather than coming to a complete halt. That's probably completely relative to one's own peculiar mix of driving habits...

 

But yes, inconsiderate behaviour is inconsiderate, by virtue of not taking some one else / anyone else into consideration. That doesn't make it universally wrong. Speaking very loudly in enclosed spaces where others are present is considered inconsiderate by many people, but it's the norm in African societies, where whispering or speaking quietly is considered inconsiderate (since it excludes others, and raises questions about whether what you are discussing is "above board" or not since you dare not speak it openly). Not everybody shares the same culture, value system or morality.

[donnamaybe]

But yes, inconsiderate behaviour is inconsiderate, by virtue of not taking some one else / anyone else into consideration. That doesn't make it universally wrong. Speaking very loudly in enclosed spaces where others are present is considered inconsiderate by many people, but it's the norm in African societies, where whispering or speaking quietly is considered inconsiderate (since it excludes others, and raises questions about whether what you are discussing is "above board" or not since you dare not speak it openly). Not everybody shares the same culture, value system or morality.

But I think we can ALL agree that when someone KNOWS they are doing something that could potentially hurt someone else but they just don't care, they are behaving in a manner that people just plain don't find - well, nice.

 

Not knowing cultural differences and inadvertantly behaving in an culturally insensitive manner doesn't apply. Now if someone pointed out said cultural differences and the person who has inserted themselves INTO said area where those differences are observed as a rule were to say something along the lines of "Well, where I come from we do it THIS way, so I don't give a shyte how you feel about it!" well, they would also be considered an a**hole.

[OWoman]

Its not a stretch, or a moral conundrum, or even a cultural thing to know that taking something from someone else is wrong

 

Just on this - this is only a problem in cultures that recognise private property. Not all cultures do. In some, all property is communal, and anyone who needs something is free to take it where it is not immediately / currently being used.

 

that if your activity must be hidden it shames you,

 

Not all As are hidden. Nor is everything that "must be hidden" necessarily a source of shame - we recently organised a surprise party for my in-laws wedding anniversary, and there was absolutely no shame involved in that!

 

or that doing something we know is wrong but justifying it to make ourselves okay with it...is not a good way treat others or yourself.

 

That's only so if you know, and accept, that it's wrong. For those of us who do not worship at the altar of the sanctity of the institution of Marriage, and those of us who consider that it, together with other forms of privatisation, are the root of social evil, EMAs are not only not wrong, they are liberating.

[OWoman]

Now if someone pointed out said cultural differences and the person who has inserted themselves INTO said area where those differences are observed as a rule were to say something along the lines of "Well, where I come from we do it THIS way, so I don't give a shyte how you feel about it!" well, they would also be considered an a**hole.

 

Perhaps. It sure happens a lot on here...

[donnamaybe]

Perhaps. It sure happens a lot on here...

Don't we though.

[donnamaybe]

But I think we can ALL agree that when someone KNOWS they are doing something that could potentially hurt someone else but they just don't care, they are behaving in a manner that people just plain don't find - well, nice.

How come you didn't quote this part? Too true?

[2sure]

Not all As are hidden. Nor is everything that "must be hidden" necessarily a source of shame - we recently organised a surprise party for my in-laws wedding anniversary, and there was absolutely no shame involved in that!

Then it isnt an affair its an open marriage

 

 

For those of us who do not worship at the altar of the sanctity of the institution of Marriage, and those of us who consider that it, together with other forms of privatisation, are the root of social evil, EMAs are not only not wrong, they are liberating.

 

Unless you are a participating 3rd party in an open marriage , we are not talking about "the altar of the sanctity of the institution of Marriage"

at all. We are talking about invading someone elses privacy and life anonymously.

 

See, a lot of times...what a person does is not as important to them as the person it is being done to.