Kismetly Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Last week, in a very low key and understated conversation, my lover of 6 months admitted that he is not formally separated from his wife, but plans to be shortly (after Christmas - not sure what year).Since that conversation I've been doing a lot of thinking and I've reduced contact dramatically. In the typical pursuer/distancer dance, his contact to me has increased in direct correlation. I've been ignoring a lot of texts/calls and replying to every 3 or 4. I haven't actually spoken to him about any of this stuff - I need to get it clear in my head because I do understand everything is pretty OK for him, he's got the mother of his children at home holding down the fort, me for glamorous romps during our respective breaks from weird remote jobs and he lives alone for 90% of the time - so can focus on his work and his passion for what he does. I need to figure out if this arrangement is OK for me - and the jury is still out.I'm at work abroad now and will be for the next 2 weeks and it's hard to contact me in this remote place, but he had a drama at work yesterday/last night and really wanted to talk to me about it. He left several messages and I called him back this morning.He has only ever called his partner "the mother of my children" to me. I occassionally refer to her as his partner (because I've known in my heart for a long time that they weren't really separated) but he's always corrected me, and said "the mother of my children". This morning when we were talking about this work thing and his concerns about a particular issue, he evidenced one thing he was concerned about by using an example the mother of his children had been involved in - and he referred to her as "my partner". I'm surprised by how much it stung.I'm a bit cross that he's been too much of a coward to tell me the truth about his marital situation until I kind of tricked him in to telling me - but now (maybe because I didn't react at the time and haven't said anything to him about it since?) he's comfortable bringing her into conversations as "his partner".I just don't get it. He obviously wants me for emotional support - or he wouldn't have been so diligent in tracking me down last night/this morning. He obviously is sensitive enough to notice that I've reduced contact - hence his increased contact .... but all of a sudden he's comfortable talking about "his partner". Ironically, it's what I've been wanting for a long time - for him to be honest with me and open up a new level of communication that is not so guarded ... but there's nothing to hide behind then is there. I can't stay in denial about screwing another woman's man when he's admitted that she exists - and now talks about her openly.then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this .....
BB07 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Last week, in a very low key and understated conversation, my lover of 6 months admitted that he is not formally separated from his wife, but plans to be shortly (after Christmas - not sure what year).Since that conversation I've been doing a lot of thinking and I've reduced contact dramatically. In the typical pursuer/distancer dance, his contact to me has increased in direct correlation. I've been ignoring a lot of texts/calls and replying to every 3 or 4. I haven't actually spoken to him about any of this stuff - I need to get it clear in my head because I do understand everything is pretty OK for him, he's got the mother of his children at home holding down the fort, me for glamorous romps during our respective breaks from weird remote jobs and he lives alone for 90% of the time - so can focus on his work and his passion for what he does. I need to figure out if this arrangement is OK for me - and the jury is still out.I'm at work abroad now and will be for the next 2 weeks and it's hard to contact me in this remote place, but he had a drama at work yesterday/last night and really wanted to talk to me about it. He left several messages and I called him back this morning.He has only ever called his partner "the mother of my children" to me. I occassionally refer to her as his partner (because I've known in my heart for a long time that they weren't really separated) but he's always corrected me, and said "the mother of my children". This morning when we were talking about this work thing and his concerns about a particular issue, he evidenced one thing he was concerned about by using an example the mother of his children had been involved in - and he referred to her as "my partner". I'm surprised by how much it stung.I'm a bit cross that he's been too much of a coward to tell me the truth about his marital situation until I kind of tricked him in to telling me - but now (maybe because I didn't react at the time and haven't said anything to him about it since?) he's comfortable bringing her into conversations as "his partner".I just don't get it. He obviously wants me for emotional support - or he wouldn't have been so diligent in tracking me down last night/this morning. He obviously is sensitive enough to notice that I've reduced contact - hence his increased contact .... but all of a sudden he's comfortable talking about "his partner". Ironically, it's what I've been wanting for a long time - for him to be honest with me and open up a new level of communication that is not so guarded ... but there's nothing to hide behind then is there. I can't stay in denial about screwing another woman's man when he's admitted that she exists - and now talks about her openly.then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... I'm afraid you are fooling yourself.....thus you are allowing him to fool you because some part of you doesn't want the whole truth. Sometimes the truth is ugly and I think you are afraid you'll mar the romantic vision you have of you and him and him and this "affair". Yes I said it.......it's an "affair". You obviously are a very smart intelligent woman so put your feet back down on the ground and look at this for what it "really" is. Perhaps he is now calling her his partner so you'll on some level understand his standing and also he might be using those words now and a way to get you to lower your expectations. It could be conscious or not conscious on his part. I'm sure he has real feelings for you, but real feelings and even love do not always have a happy ending, especially when it sounds like he has a very complicated life and didn't you say he has 4 children? That alone is mind boggling! I'm sorry to be such a downer but I'm just calling it like I see it...............hugs.
on a learning curve Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 ...then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... Yup. Exactly where I am. Though, I'm beginning to feel that "demands and expectations" aren't necessarily bad things. Sorry you are going through this.
spice4life Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... That is so funny because I have thought that before myself. I've had one of those little "partner" jilts and it ended up not feelin so good. I didn't like it...not at all. Especially after I worked so hard to appease his freaking jealousy. I wasn't sure how to handle that one and it made me stop and want to re-evaluate what the heck I was doing. It came at a time where I was going through some stuff and didn't need the added "shock" treatment. Or maybe I did. I dunno. Interesting post.
MorningCoffee Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Last week, in a very low key and understated conversation, my lover of 6 months admitted that he is not formally separated from his wife, but plans to be shortly (after Christmas - not sure what year).Since that conversation I've been doing a lot of thinking and I've reduced contact dramatically. In the typical pursuer/distancer dance, his contact to me has increased in direct correlation. I've been ignoring a lot of texts/calls and replying to every 3 or 4. I haven't actually spoken to him about any of this stuff - I need to get it clear in my head because I do understand everything is pretty OK for him, he's got the mother of his children at home holding down the fort, me for glamorous romps during our respective breaks from weird remote jobs and he lives alone for 90% of the time - so can focus on his work and his passion for what he does. I need to figure out if this arrangement is OK for me - and the jury is still out.I'm at work abroad now and will be for the next 2 weeks and it's hard to contact me in this remote place, but he had a drama at work yesterday/last night and really wanted to talk to me about it. He left several messages and I called him back this morning.He has only ever called his partner "the mother of my children" to me. I occassionally refer to her as his partner (because I've known in my heart for a long time that they weren't really separated) but he's always corrected me, and said "the mother of my children". This morning when we were talking about this work thing and his concerns about a particular issue, he evidenced one thing he was concerned about by using an example the mother of his children had been involved in - and he referred to her as "my partner". I'm surprised by how much it stung.I'm a bit cross that he's been too much of a coward to tell me the truth about his marital situation until I kind of tricked him in to telling me - but now (maybe because I didn't react at the time and haven't said anything to him about it since?) he's comfortable bringing her into conversations as "his partner".I just don't get it. He obviously wants me for emotional support - or he wouldn't have been so diligent in tracking me down last night/this morning. He obviously is sensitive enough to notice that I've reduced contact - hence his increased contact .... but all of a sudden he's comfortable talking about "his partner". Ironically, it's what I've been wanting for a long time - for him to be honest with me and open up a new level of communication that is not so guarded ... but there's nothing to hide behind then is there. I can't stay in denial about screwing another woman's man when he's admitted that she exists - and now talks about her openly.then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... So sorry for your pain and the dilemma you find yourself in. In your situation there has been a major shift in how you perceive your relationship and its parameters. This came about because of concealment on the part of your lover. Just a guess, but I surmise the concealment occurred because he believed or assumed you had certain understandings and expectations, right? As to exactly what the relationship with 'the mother of his children' was? I just want to comment on that unconditional love thing. The quote I heard that made sense to me was love can be unconditional, but relationships ought never be. I took that to mean that one's own integrity requires there be healthy boundaries as a part of a relationship. If that constitutes demands or expectations, so be it. It is mostly around behavior. If a loved one's behavior unacceptably crosses the boundaries, correction must occur or there is damage to the relationship. Love, which is unconditional, might remain (and probably will, in pain) but the behavior must change or the relationship will suffer. Unconditional love is not a license for the beloved to do (or say) whatever the h*ll and expect there to be no fallout. Unconditional love does not require you to ignore or just blithely absorb this blow. It is something I think you need to deal with with your lover.
spice4life Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Perhaps he is now calling her his partner so you'll on some level understand his standing and also he might be using those words now and a way to get you to lower your expectations. That's a tough truth to face and I would have to think before embarking on that journey. Does it become this "subculture" relationship with a mutual understanding of what it actually is? Are you single Kismet? What happens when you meet someone who doesn't have these restrictions and you want to get to know them? Do you keep seeing MM? Even if you decide to commit to someone else? In a way it's good he mentioned the "partner" thing because now you are forced to look at the future and what it all means for the two of you. Good stuff BB07. Very thought provoking.
BB07 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 . - and now talks about her openly.then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... I wanted to touch on the above......morning coffee reminded me of it in that post, (good post btw). As morning coffee said......real love and real relationships are not unconditional, they can't be......so don't kid yourself. If that were true, you'd allow him or any other man to treat you like dirt and say oh honey, that's OK and I still love you. I know you know......it doesn't work like that. Also....it's dangerous to throw in that stuff about go with the flow, trust God and the universe and all that crap.........you know this too. You are responsible for yourself and your choices and you are responsible for taking care of yourself and that doesn't include letting yourself be in a relationship that is something that makes you want for more and one that causes you more pain that pleasure. As you know, these kind of relationships tend to make you feel less than instead of enough or more than. They can kill your self esteem, do damage that can take years to recover from. I get that you aren't in that terrible place yet, but I'm afraid that you are going there if you don't pull yourself outta this. Romantic images aside, this thing can cause you a lot of damage and you sense that or you wouldn't be here. Take care of you........no one else can and will do it as kindly as you can.
jj33 Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 Excellent post BB. I can't stay in denial about screwing another woman's man when he's admitted that she exists - and now talks about her openly.then all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... Go with the flow doesnt mean letting someone lie to you. It means letting go of your expectation and stepping back from someone who has not been truthful with you. You let go (of him) AND you let go of your expectation that he will actually leave. You trust God and the Universe that things will work out as they are supposed to. You dont keep your hand on a burning flame and trust God and the universe to ensure you hand doesnt get 3rd degree burns. God gave you a brain. You use it and then you let go of your expectations. All that let go and go with the flow stuff is great when you have no control over a situation. You have control. You have the ability to protect your heart.
silverplanets Posted October 25, 2010 Posted October 25, 2010 all the self-help books I read during my divorce kick in and that information tells me that "unconditional love" doesn't make demands or have expectations ... and if I love him (and I'm not sure I know what love is really) I should accept him for what and who he is and any reaction I have to things that he says are about my insecurities. I should let them go, go with the flow and trust God/the Universe whoever that things will work out as they are supposed to .... that old "everything is in divine and perfect order" malarky.I hate this ..... Hi KM, Just my 2c's ... I'm don't see any clash between unconditional love and having your own boundries. I unconditionally love my daughter ... and if need be would lay down my life so that hers could continue ... but that does not mean I accept behaviour from her that is harmful to me. Equally my loving her does not mean that I have the right to fully "protect" her from all of life's learning opportunities (which frequently come disguised as problems !!), she has every right (as I did) to meet those problems head on, to "live them" and to benefit from the deepening of her "self" that comes from all such things. Because I unconditionally love her then I want her to experience everything, be happy, spend as long as possible on this planet, grow from the isolation of just thinking about herself to the shared joy of realising how much one has in common with everyone else on the planet. To realise that we are all the same and yet different and to, hopefully, one day pass away with a smile on her face, content in the beauty, peace and understanding that she found in the world and universe. To get there she will (if my life is anything to go by) have to personally experience "good and bad" on the way ... and the more extreme the experience the more she will have to re-assess her own internal "view" of life and her position in it ... in effect the more of an "affront" the experience is to her views then the more she will need to internally reflect and "grow" to accomodate what occurs. Eventually, and hopefully, she will reach a point where she feels a deep core love, compassion and understanding for everyone and also for herself. So my unconditional love for her means that I want her to live, to breathe, to face life and to do what she needs to do. That's all I ask. If I get to be part of her life at various times during this then I truly count myself as blessed. I accept, though, that she may well need to "go off" and find herself for 10 or more years (I know I did !) and that whilst growing up she will no doubt hate me at times (I know I did my parents) .. and I am ok with this ... it's part of her becoming her. I'm not a door mat however, and love her though I do, I do not accept behaviour which I find unacceptable ... I have my boundaries as to how I am treated and I expect those to be respected. So I unconditionally love her but that doesn't mean I give her complete control of me or my life.... in fact the opposite ... unconditional love makes me want to encourage her to live her life, not mine. I just accept her for being her. Maybe you could just accept this man for being who he is. If he is someone who wants two women in his life then accept him for that. That is who he is. Then look inward and accept yourself for who you are. Are you someone who is happy to be "the other woman". Is this use of your time on this planet one you are happy with? Once you have looked inside then you will know how you feel and then you will know what you want and you can accept him for wanting what he wants. If they are very different then unconditional love would suggest that you need to let him follow the path he needs to (so maybe go and find someone who would be happy with his preferred arrangement) and unconditional love for yourself would suggest that you need to follow your path - and perhaps leave a situation that makes you unhappy and find someone whose path more closely matches yours. So you don't need to stop loving him .. in fact you need to love him enough to accept him as he is ... and that his direction is his direction ... and love him enough to not stand in the way of him following his direction if you are not comfortable with joining him on it. Maybe in many years time, after many affairs, a D, other life things he will change his view of what is important and what he needs ... but if he's not there yet then he needs to go where he needs to go ... Loving him means letting him to that ... loving yourself means letting yourself follow YOUR path .. even if it leads you away from him. Hope that makes some kinds of sense !!! ignore if it doesn't!!!!! be safe Chris
Author Kismetly Posted October 26, 2010 Author Posted October 26, 2010 (edited) Wow. Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. There is certainly a lot there to think about.I'm not at a place where this is impacting on my day to day life yet - but you are all right - if I don't sort myself out now, it has the potential to be disasterous.Your contributions on the unconditional love and appropriate boundaries are really, really insightful and obviously I've got some way to go in my personal development.You know I read posts on LS and even some of these replies (some of them were way more advanced in the emotional maturity stakes than I am - but I aspire to that level of insight!!) and I think to myself I know this stuff... So how did I find myself in this situation? I'm so cross with myself.Thanks again. Edited October 26, 2010 by Kismetly spacing and paragraphs have got me very confused
Fieldsofgold Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Lot of really good, in-depth, very relevant posts here. I have been following along on all your threads. While reading this one, I had one of those "aha" moments. This man is very smart. Previous to your "talk," he probably knew you would want a real relationship, not just an affair. So he told you what you needed to hear to have a romantic R with him. Now you've had "the talk," very low-key, and without you so much as actually saying it, you let it be known you very well might want more from him. And he immediately, very subtly, began pulling back. He is very subtly now still telling you the minimum you need to hear to stay wih him (the Christmas promise) while gradually, subtly, showing you that there is no "more" to be had. (now she is his "partner.") I think now he's subtly grooming you to accept being his long-term affair partner. I think this man very well may be a master manipulator, and this ain't his first rodeo. The way he lives and works, there probably have been other women, and in fact there may currently be other women in other locations. It sounds like he has the perfect set-up for it. Tred very carefully, if being his long-term OW is not what you want.
BB07 Posted October 26, 2010 Posted October 26, 2010 Lot of really good, in-depth, very relevant posts here. I have been following along on all your threads. While reading this one, I had one of those "aha" moments. This man is very smart. Previous to your "talk," he probably knew you would want a real relationship, not just an affair. So he told you what you needed to hear to have a romantic R with him. Now you've had "the talk," very low-key, and without you so much as actually saying it, you let it be known you very well might want more from him. And he immediately, very subtly, began pulling back. He is very subtly now still telling you the minimum you need to hear to stay wih him (the Christmas promise) while gradually, subtly, showing you that there is no "more" to be had. (now she is his "partner.") I think now he's subtly grooming you to accept being his long-term affair partner. I think this man very well may be a master manipulator, and this ain't his first rodeo. The way he lives and works, there probably have been other women, and in fact there may currently be other women in other locations. It sounds like he has the perfect set-up for it. Tred very carefully, if being his long-term OW is not what you want. When I read FOG's post I had a ahhh haaa moment because I believe everything she said is true and it also resonated with me because my xmm was very intelligent also and until I found out the truth, I had no idea how much of that intelligence was used to manipulate me. I'm no dummy but I just couldn't see that he or anyone would do that to that extent. I always knew he was very analytical and I see clearly now how he plotted and planned. His deviousness was evil and this from a man who I never imagined could do that, but he did it to get what he wanted from me. I know you don't want to believe that this man could be evil.......but he really could and he has the smarts to do it. Be wary as FOG said.......
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