One an F-buddy always an F-buddy

October 25, 2010

Conversations which do NOT include questions? Watch their actions...a little big brother aren't we? Share what!? Oxygen?

I couldn't think of a more mondane conversation where I was not allowed to ask an opinion, their experiences, what they think, why they think, it's up to me if I don't like what I hear.

Charles Darwin didn't get on the face of money without asking a few questions...

On the other hand, I do understand your point. I agree somewhat. But asking the right questions, in this case, about the past...would saved so much hurt in relationships, my own included. Everyone has standards, whether they like to think they do or don't. We are inquisitive creatures and there will always be questions to why does an apple fall, to why the hell did you bang 45 guys in one month.

I mean that you watch their behavior over time. Do they say they will do something but not do it? Are they evasive about things like what they were up to or where they were?

And looking at what they say, over time, in casual conversation, is more telling than point asking them, because people will, especially early in the relationship, tell you what you want to hear.

And really, how far back does your inquisition go? You wouldn't date anyone who made a mistake a long time ago?

October 25, 2010

I mean that you watch their behavior over time. Do they say they will do something but not do it? Are they evasive about things like what they were up to or where they were?

And looking at what they say, over time, in casual conversation, is more telling than point asking them, because people will, especially early in the relationship, tell you what you want to hear.

And really, how far back does your inquisition go? You wouldn't date anyone who made a mistake a long time ago?

Of course I would. It's not entirely fair to exclude (asuming I knew what the apparent "mistake" was). I wouldn't date however, if those mistakes they were up in my face. Current. If she was still doing them...literally.

October 25, 2010

Oh, I do ask. What I meant is that when I started dating, I had no idea that I would even need to ask.

Back then, I wasn't aware that casual sex, multi-dating, etc. were so common.

Yea... I understand. I didn't know that either when I first started dating at 18. But later on when my career took off and I was living in 3 states at the same time working round the clock I found the time for a bf to be too much. Didn't want to be all the way alone, so a low maintenance FWB made more sense for me. When I finally had the time I left my FWB and started a real R.. and treated him very well I might add.

I was merely wondering why it's apparently okay and maybe even prudent to ask about cheating, but asking about casual sex is different and indicates some insecurity?

I don't understand that. I think both questions are about identifying shared (or conflicting) values.

If you think that someone who has had casual sex is somehow less of a person in your eyes...then by all mean go ahead. However I can;t understand how it is important to know absolutely all the nitty gritty like that...do explain. What do you think it means about that person because they had an fwb? My personal values are strong and firm.

It seems like insecurity because it sounds as if you are worried about things in the past that have no reflection on how you will treat your current R. A person who has cheated may cheat again because at one point they did feel it was ok to do...but someone who has had casual sex when not committed to anyone can't possibly mean anything about how they will treat a relationship. This is retroactive jealousy IMO.

October 25, 2010

This is retroactive jealousy IMO.

Careful...strong words!

October 25, 2010

Careful...strong words!

All I am saying is asking questions is fine...but after a certain point it sounds more like an interrogation. Do you really need to know EVERYTHING? My WHOLE history? Do I need to break out a note pad and list out everyman I have ever been with, when, what were the rules of that relationship, perhaps a timeline, what style of sex each one liked, who was best in bed...?? I mean where is the line?

I am a divorced woman with two kids...so we can all assume I am not a virgin. I have never cheated and can count on two hands how many men I have been with. I have always treated my R more then respectfully, and every X would vouch for that. I don't think too much else has any bearing on a future R.

Edited October 25, 2010 by porter218

October 25, 2010

I would of thought 'retrospective jealousy' would be a more fitting term to describe the reaction?

October 25, 2010

All I am saying is asking questions is fine...but after a certain point it sounds more like an interrogation. Do you really need to know EVERYTHING? My WHOLE history? Do I need to break out a note pad and list out everyman I have ever been with, when, what were the rules of that relationship, perhaps a timeline, what style of sex each one liked, who was best in bed...?? I mean where is the line?

I am a divorced woman with two kids...so we can all assume I am not a virgin. I have never cheated and can count on two hands how many men I have been with. I have always treated my R more then respectfully, and every X would vouch for that. I don't think too much else has any bearing on a future R.

You sound like an angel compared to my exes.

All I asume is that someone is not a virgin and that they've had relationships. That they have not cheated. That's all I need to know...now let's have a good time.

But, in my experience I've had far more...erm, exciting isn't really the word to use here, more f*cked up history stories from exes, from drugs, to mental health issues to best friend ex boyfriends

They all seem to have very "high" magical numbers...

Still one can hope for a mentally stable girl...please...at some point?

October 25, 2010

I would of thought 'retrospective jealousy' would be a more fitting term to describe the reaction?

thats sounds fun to deal with...here lets all read about it.

http://www.sexual-stress.co.uk/retrospective_jealousy.htm

But, in my experience I've had far more...erm, exciting isn't really the word to use here, more f*cked up history stories from exes, from drugs, to mental health issues to best friend ex boyfriends

Yea... I have dealt with the same f**ked history's from a couple of my Xs. Normal people are out there... I swear. But can you not admit that ruling someone out because they have had casual sex may be limiting...you could miss out on a girl like me:cool:

October 25, 2010

thats sounds fun to deal with...here lets all read about it.
http://www.sexual-stress.co.uk/retrospective_jealousy.htm

Hehe well there you go, I didnt even know there was such a thing, I was just playing with words.

What about women who post pics only WITH OTHER WOMEN???!! The guy is left wondering damn nit, which one is her!? You kinda feel rude having to ask, y'know.

October 25, 2010

All I am saying is asking questions is fine...but after a certain point it sounds more like an interrogation. Do you really need to know EVERYTHING? My WHOLE history? Do I need to break out a note pad and list out everyman I have ever been with, when, what were the rules of that relationship, perhaps a timeline, what style of sex each one liked, who was best in bed...?? I mean where is the line?

Is one notepad enough for you?

I mean who are you (and the others advocating a wall of silence on this issue) trying to kid?

The only people who would take issue with divulging their past sexual and relationship histories to a serious partner are those who feel, rightly or wrongly, that it would reflect badly on them.

Such as, formerly promiscuous women who want to portray themselves as having not been formerly promiscuous.

You know--like OP's gf.

I am a divorced woman with two kids...so we can all assume I am not a virgin.

And that you also have at least one failed prior marital relationship. If you don't think that history is relevant to a new partner, that's fine. Conceal your divorce if it suits your fancy.

But others are perfectly well entitled to feel differently about it.

And obviously, it would be reasonable for a new partner to wonder why someone would be reluctant to talk about their past relationship history--what are they ashamed of? What are they hiding?

In your particular case, it might well matter to a new partner why you ended up getting divorced. Your history might reflect poorly on your ability to maintain a future long term committed relationship.

You can rant and rave and scream against this all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that a person's track record is a significant data point. And if you don't think so, then divulge it anyway, because--it doesn't matter, right? People don't conceal things that don't matter, because they don't much care about them one way or the other.

I have never cheated and can count on two hands how many men I have been with.

You just contradicted your entire point. If prior relationship history doesn't matter, then the fact that you never cheated is an irrelevant item of data, isn't it? It has no bearing on your future relationships, right, because track record doesn't matter?

Oh wait a minute--what you're really saying is that you'll happily disclose information that you are proud of, that reflects well on you...THAT'S relevant. But not the stuff you're not so proud of--the FWB's, the promiscuity, the drunken ONS's-- or whatever it is that you take so much offense at disclosing?

You don't get to have it both ways. Your past is either relevant or it's not. By asserting your credibility through stating your past history of never cheating, you've just admitted that your past is relevant to evaluating your character. And that means the bad has to be included, not filtered out so as to include only what you believe casts a positive reflection on your past behavior.

I have always treated my R more then respectfully, and every X would vouch for that. I don't think too much else has any bearing on a future R.

You just did it again. You just explicitly stated that only the positive aspects of your past relationship history is relevant, and you're going to deliberately withhold what you consider to be negatives in your past behavior.

That's hypocritical, deceitful, and self-contradictory.

What are you hiding? What are you so ashamed of that it can't even be mentioned?

That's not something you have to answer here by the way. It is something you need to be able to answer for yourself, though.

October 25, 2010

Yea... I understand. I didn't know that either when I first started dating at 18. But later on when my career took off and I was living in 3 states at the same time working round the clock I found the time for a bf to be too much. Didn't want to be all the way alone, so a low maintenance FWB made more sense for me. When I finally had the time I left my FWB and started a real R.. and treated him very well I might add.

And evidently now you are ashamed of having been in a FWB and therefore have determined to exclude it from future recitations of your relationship history to significant others?

The deception inherent in that posture is probably much more significant than the past sexual conduct, something which you and others who take your position don't seem to "get." How many of the people here taking the position that it's OK to be less than 100% honest about this stuff (with serious partners, not flings) can lay claim to having a generally happy relationship history?

Such folks don't see the connection between honesty and healthy relationships, not at all, do theys?

If you think that someone who has had casual sex is somehow less of a person in your eyes...then by all mean go ahead.

If YOU think it means they are not less of a person--you said it, no one else--then you would have no reluctance to disclose it. It is because YOU are ashamed of what you did that you do not want to disclose it. You think it's some sort of big deep dark secret. You're afraid that whoever it is you are dating won't take you seriously after finding out.

You know what? If you don't trust the person you're dating with the 100% truth about yourself, then you don't trust them, period.

You can manufacture all the rationalizations for deception and misrepresenting yourself that you want, but it doesn't change the simple fact that you did what you did. And your partner, not you, has the right to make his or her own evaluation of what your behavior and past behavior signifies--if anything at all. If you don't think you can trust your partner with those truths, then all that means is that you lack trust in yourself, and in your partner.

However I can;t understand how it is important to know absolutely all the nitty gritty like that...do explain.

It's very easy to explain and you do understand. You realize full well that divulging evidence of what might seem to be past "promiscuity" may reflect badly on your character. That's why you are steadfast in your refusal to disclose it. The real question is "Why don't you want to disclose something that is completely unimportant?" Unimportant things do not warrant concealment. So now you're just being completely disingenous.

What do you think it means about that person because they had an fwb? My personal values are strong and firm.

Obviously YOU don't think your FWB relationship reflects that your personal values are strong, which is precisely why you refuse to disclose that part of your history. What your partner thinks about it is up to him/her. If you can't trust your partner enough to tell him/her about past sexual history that you claim is not significant, then you don't trust your partner. So you're trying to have an intimate relationship with someone in which you're showing a lack of trust; hiding secrets; and feeling shame at things you did in the past; and denying all of the above.

All that "baggage" that you are carrying doesn't make for good, loving, trusting relationships. There is such a thing as clearing the air and it has a value. Keep all the secrets that you want, but make no mistake about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and the damage that it causes to relationships.

It seems like insecurity because it sounds as if you are worried about things in the past that have no reflection on how you will treat your current R.

How can your partner be "insecure" about something that he doesn't know you've done, because you refuse to tell him/her?

It's you who are insecure about what you've done, that's why you don't want to be honest about it with your partner. As to whether or not what you've done in the past may or may not affect or reflect upon the current relationship, by insisting on concealing it, by making a secret of it, it already IS affecting your current relationship, it's creating a brick wall between you and your partner.

[A person who has cheated may cheat again because at one point they did feel it was ok to do...

OK so now you're saying past history DOES matter, only if it's about something that you haven't done? LOL. Only what "other" people have done in the past matters, but not what you've done? Pretty selective now aren't we?

but someone who has had casual sex when not committed to anyone can't possibly mean anything about how they will treat a relationship. This is retroactive jealousy IMO.

Well you've convinced me, what you did in the past, your casual sex, doesn't reflect poorly on you at all. I believe it, which is why I think you have no reason not to tell, and let your current partner make his or her own determination about what it means.

I know what shame is and you're ashamed. That's the bottom line here.

October 25, 2010

LW - there is a difference between private and ashamed. I carry secrets that I will probably take to my grave. They are mine to carry and share with who I choose, and I certainly will not share them with some guy early in the getting to know you phase to satisfy his need to control and pass judgment on me and my life.

October 25, 2010

Is one notepad enough for you?

IDK.. if you need to know every breath and every move and everything ever said and done...well yes. I could write a book.

Come on..you just love to argue. You sound like my brother.. LOL

And that you also have at least one failed prior marital relationship. If you don't think that history is relevant to a new partner, that's fine. Conceal your divorce if it suits your fancy.

Yea... sure. It's my fault my H was a habitual cheater. Of course the fact that I was married is relevant. Any new bf will eventually have to meet my xH. But the failure was in no way my fault. I was a fantastic W and xH would happily confirm this was his doing. He will regret loosing my for the rest of his life(his words).

And obviously, it would be reasonable for a new partner to wonder why someone would be reluctant to talk about their past relationship history--what are they ashamed of? What are they hiding?

I find it just strange if someone feels the need to dissect absolutely everything. I have never done anything I am ashamed of. If interogated about it I would tell everything they asked me....but then would be worried why in the hell does he need to know this:confused:. If it wasn't about cheating or about issues that may reflect on my current behavior then what is it?? Sounds like someone who isn't very fun to be with. Sounds like someone who is looking for something to be jealous about.

In your particular case, it might well matter to a new partner why you ended up getting divorced. Your history might reflect poorly on your ability to maintain a future long term committed relationship.

Well if the new partner doesn't cheat then I have no problem with commitment. My only fault was picking the wrong H and allowing him to rush me into M so I wouldn't have tome to see who he really was. I accept that was my fault...but thats all. Live and learn.

Youjust contradicted your entire point. If prior relationship history doesn't matter, then the fact that you never cheated is an irrelevant item of data, isn't it? It has no bearing on your future relationships, right, because track record doesn't matter?

No contradiction. I said a basic outline of ones history is important but the nitty gritty really isn't. What all do you feel you ned to know? Did you ask your W about EVERYTHING? Which X was best in bed.. What sex positions she did with which x? Where they had sex? How committed was each x to her? I keep asking where is the line...and I am getting the picture there is none. Sounds obsessive.

Oh wait a minute--what you're really saying is that you'll happily disclose information that you are proud of, that reflects well on you...THAT'S relevant. But not the stuff you're not so proud of--the FWB's, the promiscuity, the drunken ONS's-- or whatever it is that you take so much offense at disclosing?

I will disclose whatever is asked. But after such an extreme interrogation I may likely reevaluate that R. I have nothing I am ashamed of. I asked my xH today what he thought about these things and he thought it is over the top to ask all of this. Well I feel the same. In my 13 years of sexual history nobody has interrogated me like that.

You just did it again. You just explicitly stated that only the positive aspects of your past relationship history is relevant, and you're going to deliberately withhold what you consider to be negatives in your past behavior.

I have never deliberately withheld a single thing. Nobody ever felt the need to ask so many questions. They asked a few important questions then went on to enjoy the R and let actions speak louder then words...always the best teller.

What are you hiding? What are you so ashamed of that it can't even be mentioned?

:laugh:

Nothing. I have actually given more of my R history in this thread then to most guys I've been with. If a man I was interested in thought he had to ask every detail of my life up to this current day I would probably be a jackass, after reading this thread, and draw a detailed timeline from birth to that day with every ridiculously small detail of what I have done in my life....then ignore all calls after that point.

anywho...I will attend to my daughter who just woke up. Enjoyed the discussion. Good night

Edited October 25, 2010 by porter218

October 25, 2010

LW - there is a difference between private and ashamed. I carry secrets that I will probably take to my grave. They are mine to carry and share with who I choose, and I certainly will not share them with some guy early in the getting to know you phase to satisfy his need to control and pass judgment on me and my life.

I never said people should share sensitive personal info. with casual relationships. Every thing I've stated is in the context of a serious LTR or something that clearly looks that way.

The problem of course is that often enough it's not really clear as to when a casual relationship will morph into a serious one. There is no clear dividing line or boundary line.

So, no--don't spill one's guts to casual dating partners, of course not. On the other hand, it's always better to err on the side of honesty a little earlier than procrastinate, because procrastination has a way of ending up never getting resolved. The little secret becomes bigger and bigger, and then because it wasn't divulged early on, it has to be kept.

So, what might be some rather meaningless past information if divulged early on, becomes potentially much more significant if it is divulged years later--as in after getting married for some reason. Because the now-spouse or now LTR may believe that they have been deceived, and that the keeping of what may for all intents and purposes have been a rather insignificant fling as a secret for all that time, imbues it with much more emotional significance to the secret-keeper than it actually had. Combine that with the lack of trust that might be created, and you can have a real problem.

In any case if someone chooses not to disclose past info., for any reason, they don't have to, but they need to understand that there might be serious fallout if and when the "secret" is ultimately divulged to a serious LTR or spouse who never knew about it before. If the past fling is truly meaningless and insignificant there's simply no reason to take that kind of a chance.

Also, the people who advocate secrecy in the context of an LTR need to be more honest about their motivation. It's because they think the info. would not reflect well on them. Once that's acknowledged, it becomes much easier to understand the logic of early and complete disclosure.

In relationships, these kinds of secrets are just not helpful.

Let's face it: If I'm regularly being so intimate with someone else, sharing my body with them, penetrating or being penetrated, exchanging bodily fluids as the case may be, I better be able to feel I can trust that person with some perhaps somewhat embarrassing info about my sexual past. If I can't trust them that far, I probably shouldn't trust them enough to let them have sex with me in the first place.

October 25, 2010

I have to say I am a little curious about one thing that isn't clear here. When did she get her D? Or did she get it yet? From your wording it sounds like it she supposedly finalized while she was with you in this past year..?? Have you seen any of this paperwork? If you have access to it you should read it and see who filed...just out of curiosity. It seems like that story about her D is muddled. How involved in her life are you really? Met her daughter?

She's been separated now for ten years. Never filed any paperwork at all. She acts as if she's divorced at that being "officially" divorced doesn't matter.

There's nothing going on with her and her husband... he's in a new relationship, after having a kid with yet another one.

It's funny... I feel in some ways she knows that her relationship history - which is relevant especially because it overlapped with me - keeps her interested in me.

I don't mean to hurt her - but she knows that it was wrong to not tell me about a years long relationship, much, much earlier. And that it was wrong to act like she was someone looking for love on match dot com - when she was using the site to make money on singles parties.

I love her - and I feel as though she loves me - but I have no idea what she was up to from the time she left her husband... until the time she met me, The story constantly changes.

But I've been clear to her - I have serious reservations about her deceit and her relationships since her separation - which have all been sex-only relationships.

So I see to it that I don't become too involved in her daughter's life. That would be unfair... although being involved with a decent guy never seemed to be a high priority for her before.

I think the part she not telling me is that she spent the last decade basically being a party girl.

October 25, 2010

IDK.. if you need to know every breath and every move and everything ever said and done...well yes. I could write a book.

You really haven't provided any explanation whatsoever for why you are so resistant to the notion as a "default position," of full disclosure of your past to a serious LTR partner or potential spouse. You keep saying you're not ashamed of anything you've done. OK fine. Then you have absolutely no reason not to disclose whatever your partner happens to have curiosity about.

If nothing else, that kind of information gives your partner insight into the way you think, feel, and behave in various situations, which will serve you both well in your relationship. If your partner doesn't care about your past, that's fine, but what kind of a person who is in love with another person, isn't intensely curious about them?

Come on..you just love to argue. You sound like my brother.. LOL

Actually the fact that you apparently interact precisely the same way (ie. "argumentatively") with both your brother and someone on the internet whom you don't even know, two completely different people, would suggest otherwise.

Yea... sure. It's my fault my H was a habitual cheater.

Your h's past relationship history does not matter, right? I should not care about it nor hold it against him in evaluating his character. I should not be curious about it. It is not relevant. Why did you bring your h's cheating past into this discussion? It is simply not relevant, and your attempt to attribute the failure of your marriage to your h's cheating is also not relevant. It is all in the past.

Of course the fact that I was married is relevant.

Actually it is not relevant at all if your contention is that a person's past relationship history isn't relevant to their current partner. Which is what I thought you were saying. Did I misunderstand?

Any new bf will eventually have to meet my xH.

LOL the more and more you tell us about your actual relationship history, the more and more relevant it seems to be. Funny how that works, isn't it?

But the failure was in no way my fault.

Of course it wasn't.

I was a fantastic W and xH would happily confirm this was his doing. He will regret loosing my for the rest of his life(his words).

Of course you were; of course he would; and of course he will.

I find it just strange if someone feels the need to dissect absolutely everything. I have never done anything I am ashamed of.

Well you are indeed an unusual person if that is actually true, I congratulate you on your circumspection. However if true then there is nothing about your past that you could possibly have any hesitation in fully disclosing.

If interogated about it I would tell everything they asked me....but then would be worried why in the hell does he need to know this:confused:

It could well be because "he" may be very curious because he may not be so certain that the image of infallibility and faultlessness you are so desperately trying to present to him is completely accurate or objective. Surely you must understand that anyone who claims they have NEVER done ANYTHING that they were ashamed of in their lives is most likely not going to be perceived as being entirely accurate? And while I understand your ex cheated on you and no doubt takes the lion's share of the blame for the failure of your marriage, you were "there" too, weren't you?

The question IMO isn't why in the hell he needs to know...it's why in the hell does he even have to ask ("interrogate"? LOL) in order for you to tell him the full truth about yourself?

"Your way" didn't work out too well in your first marriage, did it? You'll have to admit that, at least, won't you?

If it wasn't about cheating or about issues that may reflect on my current behavior then what is it?? Sounds like someone who isn't very fun to be with. Sounds like someone who is looking for something to be jealous about.

Sounds like someone who thinks she's got something in her past that may make her new bf very jealous.

What could that be? And why doesn't she trust new bf enough to tell him, whatever "it" is?

Well if the new partner doesn't cheat then I have no problem with commitment. My only fault was picking the wrong H and allowing him to rush me into M so I wouldn't have tome to see who he really was. I accept that was my fault...but thats all. Live and learn.

Learn more. Not only should you fully divulge your past to your new bf, if you want to get serious with him...he should do the same for you. In fact IMO you should insist upon it. Better a little bit of mutual embarrassment and maybe a few tears now, up front, to clear the air, then a second divorce down the road....wouldn't you think?

No contradiction. I said a basic outline of ones history is important but the nitty gritty really isn't. What all do you feel you ned to know?

LOL your bf--if you intend to get married to him that is--is the one you have to address this to, not me.

Did you ask your W about EVERYTHING? Which X was best in bed.. What sex positions she did with which x? Where they had sex? How committed was each x to her? I keep asking where is the line...and I am getting the picture there is none. Sounds obsessive.

Careful now. We are not talking about what I (or anyone) "did", we are talking about what people "should" do. As far as I know my wife is not keeping any secrets from me--but you see that's the problem isn't it? How would I know, if she is? How would she know if I am keeping secrets from her?

It's not the silly FWB or one night stand or lesbian fling or threesome or whatever rather trite sexual thing you might have done at one time or another that's very important, but that is apparently so shameful to you in hindsight.

It's that you don't see how destructive it is to keep secrets of this kind from your SO or spouse. Secrets kill relationships.

What killed your first marriage? You spoke of your ex's affairs. Affairs are all about keeping secrets. Maybe had your ex been a little more honest with you before and during your marriage, whatever issues he had which led him to have an affair could have been addressed in a way which might have saved the marriage.

But he kept those things secret from you, instead he shared himself with someone outside the marriage.

Secrets kill marriages.

I will disclose whatever is asked. But after such an extreme interrogation I may likely reevaluate that R.

A resentful disclosure is probably worthless. You are not freely disclosing the info because you feel your SO has a right to know. That's because disclosing your secrets means, at least to you, that you've lost a certain measure of power in the relationship, and it's that which you resent--your perception of the loss of power that disclosure of the secret results in. Keeping your secrets gives you power, at least the way you perceive it. Disclosing the secrets is a loss of power. When you know something that the other person does not know, you have power that they don't have.

Maybe this is all about never allowing yourself to be in a position of total vulnerability again, like with your ex, and then getting totally burned?

I have nothing I am ashamed of.

That's the second time you've said that and repeating it a second time doesn't mean that it's any more true than the first time you said it. Only an infallible person has never done anything to be ashamed of, and you're not infallible. No one is. I've done plenty that I'm ashamed of, the difference between you and I is that I have a good enough grasp on what's up to be able to admit my human frailty.

I asked my xH today what he thought about these things and he thought it is over the top to ask all of this. Well I feel the same. In my 13 years of sexual history nobody has interrogated me like that.

LOL you mean the exH who cheated on you and caused your marriage to self-destruct? Did it ever occur to you that your exH might not be the ideal person from whom to seek relationship advice?

And obviously it's not about "interrogation" since no one is going to water board you, it's about the fact that you are resistant to freely disclose things which you claim to not be ashamed of and which you claim do not feel reflect poorly on your character. The fact of your reluctance to disclose contradicts your statements that you have no reason to fear disclosure. Most likely whatever it is that would be disclosed such as an FWB would be perceived by your new bf as completely trivial, so it is your lack of trust in your bf's ability to digest the trivial information about your past, which may be illusory on your part, which is the real issue here.

I have never deliberately withheld a single thing. Nobody ever felt the need to ask so many questions.

Were I to be considering getting married to someone with kids from a failed first marriage, also knowing that would involve continued interaction with the exH, you better believe I would want to know everything. If she showed any reluctance to fully disclose, without me having to "interrogate," that would be a rather giant red flag. And a caution to you, the only type of guy who will roll with non-disclosure by you, will be a man who has his own skeletons to hide, which may be far worse than an FWB.

So IMO you should not even want to be getting seriously involved with a man who isn't keen for full mutual disclosure, because it suggests he has something to hide. You have kids, you can't afford to mess this up, and you know that. You need to know EVERYTHING about this guy you're getting involved with, and if that means you need to give him full disclosure in exchange, you should be more than happy to do so. Without "interrogation."

They asked a few important questions then went on to enjoy the R and let actions speak louder then words...always the best teller.

Ahem, where are "they" now, having "enjoyed" the "R"?

They're history, right?

I have actually given more of my R history in this thread then to most guys I've been with.

I couldn't care less what you tell or don't to random guys you've dated. They don't matter. They're all gone now. They're history.

This discussion applies to what you should disclose to someone whom you are expecting to get into a serious LTR, living together, marriage or leading up to marriage. You know a "serious" relationship.

If a man I was interested in thought he had to ask every detail of my life up to this current day I would probably be a jackass, after reading this thread, and draw a detailed timeline from birth to that day with every ridiculously small detail of what I have done in my life....then ignore all calls after that point.

Who said "every detail of your life," although frankly, why does even that bother you? If you think drawing up a timeline is necessary, by all means do it. Most of the time this isn't necessary because the natural flow of a healthy courtship over several months or a year or two will involve both parties basically telling the other all about themselves in some asynchronous non chronological way. Only where people are deliberately hiding stuff about themselves from each other would a "timeline" even become necessary. In fact that's the type of thing a betrayed spouse often asks a cheating partner to write up--a time line, precisely because it's the only way to fill in the gaps caused by the history of lies and non-disclosures.

The goal in courtship should be to mutually get to know each other well enough that by the time the relationship gets to the thinking about marriage stage, a timeline shouldn't be necessary.

anywho...I will attend to my daughter who just woke up. Enjoyed the discussion. Good night

Yes good luck with your relationships.

October 25, 2010

I have no idea what she was up to from the time she left her husband... until the time she met me, The story constantly changes.

Well based on what you've written about her OP, putting 2+2 together, the most likely thing is that she probably was some kind of a high-class escort or call girl. Who knows, she might still be hooking for all you know.

As far as her being married, I would seriously doubt that unless you've seen the paperwork. And even if you see it, it could be faked.

Telling johns that they're married but separated is a common tactics for hookers who want to string guys along, get the guys to fall in love and extract their money, but make it impossible for the deluded john to actually try to get serious with the call girl.

These parties she's throwing sound an awful lot like thinly veiled pimping actually.

Edit: Is that what you mean by calling her a "party girl"? Did you mean to imply you realize she is/was a prostitute?

October 25, 2010

I have no idea what she was up to from the time she left her husband... until the time she met me, The story constantly changes.

Edit: Is that what you mean by calling her a "party girl"? Did you mean to imply you realize she is/was a prostitute?

No... you've been on the money so far. But I probably mislead you with the term "party girl." What I meant was someone who was out clubbing a lot - just looking for a good time.

She was clearly married, I've met her hubby, and all that.

Def not a hooker, escort, or anything even close like that.

I think one part of her wanted a normal relationship... the other part of her like getting drunk and having unattached sex.

The real problem lies in that she presented herself as just the opposite for close to a year.

But I guess if she told me, after separating from her husband, she's been involved with a series of f-buddies - I'd have run away... or wanted her for that too.

She just a pretty girl - who for some reason - got involved in these meaningless relationships.

October 25, 2010

But I guess if she told me, after separating from her husband, she's been involved with a series of f-buddies - I'd have run away... or wanted her for that too.

This really sounds hypocritical.... Unless you also feel that you would be degrading yourself to the point of becoming damaged goods that's unworthy of an actual relationship with someone you perceive to be of your 'current caliber' if you were to engage in a **** buddy relationship. Which somehow I doubt.

October 25, 2010

Learn more. Not only should you fully divulge your past to your new bf, if you want to get serious with him...he should do the same for you. In fact IMO you should insist upon it. Better a little bit of mutual embarrassment and maybe a few tears now, up front, to clear the air, then a second divorce down the road....wouldn't you think?

I just want to point out that it is a good idea to do this early on as someone who would would work your sexual history over with a thin-toothed comb in order to crosscheck your past with a checklist of ego driven (as opposed to health or compatibility driven) requirements involving your sexuality needs to be dumped yesterday... From what I have seen, folks with antiquated views of such things (aka have sexual hang ups mixed with control issues) make for horrible long term partners unless equally paired with someone who has similar issues. They are nothing but launch material and the sooner one knows that the better.

October 25, 2010

To be honest, I've never understood why people lose respect for a person because of something they did in the past-having had a sex life isn't a crime. Sorry. Stockalone, I ask you, would you expect a woman you were dating to lose total respect for you after discovering you'd had a casual relationship?

In the end of it all, it boils down to how much respect you had for that person prior to finding out their sexual history. If a guy lost respect for me because of that, I'd know he didn't much to begin with.

What's clear to me is that OP seems to be disillusioned with the concept of relationship v f-buddy. Most women would take a relationship over an f-buddy anyday. Most men would prefer it the other way around. Not all, but most. Relationships offer intimacy, security, trust, affection and an f-buddy offers sex and that's it. If you want that kind of set-up and feel like you are somehow being shortchanged, then you ought to end things with this girl, and let her find someone more mature.

October 25, 2010

LW - there is a difference between private and ashamed. I carry secrets that I will probably take to my grave. They are mine to carry and share with who I choose, and I certainly will not share them with some guy early in the getting to know you phase to satisfy his need to control and pass judgment on me and my life.

Completely agree.

Unless it endangers a partner's health, I shan't be divulging things that to me are private and for me to tell. No one really wants to know the number of sexual partners someone has had, it's just another thing to feel worried about, and fret over, for me, there's no need to know that kind of thing.

I've read so many threads on here about the sharing of that elusive number, and a lot of the male posters have been rather harsh in their judgments on potential/current partners. I fully agree that if you set yourself a standard that you won't sleep around, engage in casual sex, or whatever it is, you should find a partner that lives their life to that same standard.

But ultimately, the numbers game is just that. A number. A person may have had an undesirable amount of sexual partners, or had an f-buddy in the past, it's not a big deal really. Compared to all the other things they could have done.

October 25, 2010

In any case if someone chooses not to disclose past info., for any reason, they don't have to, but they need to understand that there might be serious fallout if and when the "secret" is ultimately divulged to a serious LTR or spouse who never knew about it before. If the past fling is truly meaningless and insignificant there's simply no reason to take that kind of a chance.

Also, the people who advocate secrecy in the context of an LTR need to be more honest about their motivation. It's because they think the info. would not reflect well on them. Once that's acknowledged, it becomes much easier to understand the logic of early and complete disclosure.

In relationships, these kinds of secrets are just not helpful.

Let's face it: If I'm regularly being so intimate with someone else, sharing my body with them, penetrating or being penetrated, exchanging bodily fluids as the case may be, I better be able to feel I can trust that person with some perhaps somewhat embarrassing info about my sexual past. If I can't trust them that far, I probably shouldn't trust them enough to let them have sex with me in the first place.

I think this is right.

In addition, those of you who advocate keeping secrets from your partner seem to have a very strong need to control the other person. You think you should control what facts he knows about you, so that you can control what he thinks of you. I think that keeping secrets from your partner is very disrespectful; it's a way of saying "I don't think of you as an adult capable of making an intelligent decision about what is best for you. You are just a child and I will let you know what you should think is important. I am in charge here."

October 25, 2010

To be honest, I've never understood why people lose respect for a person because of something they did in the past-having had a sex life isn't a crime.

Everyone has a threshold... something that someone did in their past that would bother them or make having a relationship with them impossible.

For example, if your significant other had cheated in every past relationship... isn't that relevant - and wouldn't want to know?

How you behaved in your past relationships could be an indicator of how you'll behave again.

If someone views sex as very "casual..." just for kicks... the kind of act you have with some guy who won't bother to take you to dinner or acknowledge your child...

Don't you think that that kind of person might be likely to view, for example, an extramarital affair as simply sex - and not infidelity?

My gf repeatedly tells me that the 2 to 3 years she spent having sex with her doctor friend was so insignificant... that she didn't think it was worth telling me about - even though she had sex with him after we started dating.

The point is a person like this doesn't take sex seriously.

It doesn't make her a bad person - she's funny, smart, hard working, sexy - but maybe not someone I want to be serious with.

I'm basically trying to take a page from her book, that you can have sex with someone for years, and have it mean little more than just a good time.

I never viewed it like that before.

I understand the thrill of a one night stand... or the appeal of a whirlwind romance where you throw caution to the wind....

But 2-3 years hooking up with someone who's made it clear to them - your not worthy to be my girlfriend... just good enough for sex.

When I found out i said to her - so he saw you as someone good enough to f@#K but not date... but for me - you're supposed to be good enough to date?

October 25, 2010

When I found out i said to her - so he saw you as someone good enough to f@#K but not date... but for me - you're supposed to be good enough to date?

I guarantee you that EVERY SINGLE PERSON you have had a relationship with would be considered ****able but not datable by someone... so that is a really stupid criteria for determining the worth of anyone in the dating pool as you are simply self-selecting yourself out of it. Why do you give two craps if some unknown person doesn't think a person you are dating is datable especially when you don't even have any knowledge of the reason behind that decision? How on Earth can that be any type of measure for what you should think of them?

Edited October 25, 2010 by theBrokenMuse

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