did I make a mistake?

[souvlaki]

Souvlaki, if you knew this guy was only looking for "casual sex" and it was listed on his profile, how can you expect to be exclusive? Or a better question would be if you knew you wanted an exclusive relationship why did you chose someone who stated they were only interested in "casual sex"?

 

Good question. Because we didn't meet online. When I saw his profile, I broached the subject of what he was looking for. This was before we had that email exchange. He basically left it ambiguous and said before he met me he had only wanted something casual, but he was open to the possibility of getting serious once we got to know each other better.

[welikeincrowds]

I'm in a very similar situation right now. I've been thinking it through and I have come to some conclusions that have been helpful for me. For that reason I have a thought and some questions I'd like to you consider.

 

This conversation is about structure -- how you imagine your romantic life should unfold -- and not about content -- what your romantic life really is, and in particular, what it is with this person. You can hear it when you say "I do want commitment in general," and when you don't say, "I desire to start a relationship with him."

 

Your reaction is not to a problem now, but to a slightly different vision of the future that may or may not become what really happens. You're soothsaying the (painful?) end of a relationship. (Ironically, your response is to end the relationship now.)

 

And yet, you have your own doubts. This discussion topic is one of them. There are probably others. This is natural: he is still a stranger to you, after all.

 

The reality is that anyone with the dating chops and being pursued by lots of people of the other sex, or with lots of options, isn't wasting too much time fretting over this stuff and posting thousands of posts

This is exactly what you should not listen to. Perhaps they don't post thousands of posts re: bowel movements, but everyone, even the suavest and seemingly most confident people, have moments of doubt in the dating world.

 

With this in mind, there are two questions I have for you. They are meant to cut away at the doubt, and instead help you find comfort in the inevitable call of uncertainty.

 

My first question: What, precisely, are you afraid of?

 

My second question: Do you delight in him?

 

Focus on how you feel when you two are together, and not on anything else. Be clear about what you really have, and really don't have. These answers will help you decide on whether or not you should continue. The second question, especially: in my view, little else matters.

[souvlaki]

I'm in a very similar situation right now. I've been thinking it through and I have come to some conclusions that have been helpful for me. For that reason I have a thought and some questions I'd like to you consider.

 

This conversation is about structure -- how you imagine your romantic life should unfold -- and not about content -- what your romantic life really is, and in particular, what it is with this person. You can hear it when you say "I do want commitment in general," and when you don't say, "I desire to start a relationship with him."

 

Your reaction is not to a problem now, but to a slightly different vision of the future that may or may not become what really happens. You're soothsaying the (painful?) end of a relationship. (Ironically, your response is to end the relationship now.)

 

And yet, you have your own doubts. This discussion topic is one of them. There are probably others. This is natural: he is still a stranger to you, after all.

 

This is exactly what you should not listen to. Perhaps they don't post thousands of posts re: bowel movements, but everyone, even the suavest and seemingly most confident people, have moments of doubt in the dating world.

 

With this in mind, there are two questions I have for you. They are meant to cut away at the doubt, and instead help you find comfort in the inevitable call of uncertainty.

 

My first question: What, precisely, are you afraid of?

 

My second question: Do you delight in him?

 

Focus on how you feel when you two are together, and not on anything else. Be clear about what you really have, and really don't have. These answers will help you decide on whether or not you should continue. The second question, especially: in my view, little else matters.

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

1) My fear is getting emotionally attached to him and discovering down the line he doesn't ever want a relationship with me. But I don't know if that's a fair enough reason to cut things off just yet, because that's a risk whenever you start to date someone. Of course this situation comes with extra heightened risk given the place that he's in.

 

2) Yes, I absolutely do delight in him. I really, really enjoy the time we spend together, and it's exceedingly rare I feel such a strong potential connection with somebody so early on. Hence my fear above, and also my reluctance to give up just yet. I believe that he also really enjoys our time together, with more depth than just a physical connection, but I think we're both aware that my feelings for him at this point are stronger.

 

The main reason I've been second guessing my original stance is that all week I've been thinking to myself, "goddammit, I really miss being around him."

 

In fact one of my friends remarked today that something that sets this guy apart from others I've dated is that I really seem to like spending time with him, where she got the sense I didn't even like most of my exes.

 

Things he has said in our conversation constantly pop up in my brain, because they're so relevant to my own thoughts about the world. I've never had the experience of somebody "infiltrating" my mind so fast, which is a little scary.

Edited October 23, 2010 by souvlaki

[welikeincrowds]

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

1) My fear is getting emotionally attached to him and discovering down the line he doesn't ever want a relationship with me. But I don't know if that's a fair enough reason to cut things off just yet, because that's a risk whenever you start to date someone. Of course this situation comes with extra heightened risk given the place that he's in.

 

2) Yes, I absolutely do delight in him. I really, really enjoy the time we spend together, and it's exceedingly rare I feel such a strong potential connection with somebody so early on. Hence my fear above, and also my reluctance to give up just yet. I believe that he also really enjoys our time together, with more depth than just a physical connection, but I think we're both aware that my feelings for him at this point are stronger.

 

The main reason I've been second guessing my original stance is that all week I've been thinking to myself, "goddammit, I really miss being around him."

 

In fact one of my friends remarked today that something that sets this guy apart from others I've dated is that I really seem to like spending time with him, where she got the sense I didn't even like most of my exes.

 

Things he has said in our conversation constantly pop up in my brain, because they're so relevant to my own thoughts about the world. I've never had the experience of somebody "infiltrating" my mind so fast, which is a little scary.

 

 

:):)

 

Wonderful.

 

See this one to its end. I have the feeling that you will regret much more that you didn't than if you do.

[souvlaki]

:):)

 

Wonderful.

 

See this one to its end. I have the feeling that you will regret much more that you didn't than if you do.

 

Yeah, I tend to agree with you on this one. I'm leaning towards giving it a shot. I just need to protect my heart.

[Star Gazer]

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

 

1) My fear is getting emotionally attached to him and discovering down the line he doesn't ever want a relationship with me. But I don't know if that's a fair enough reason to cut things off just yet, because that's a risk whenever you start to date someone. Of course this situation comes with extra heightened risk given the place that he's in.

 

2) Yes, I absolutely do delight in him. I really, really enjoy the time we spend together, and it's exceedingly rare I feel such a strong potential connection with somebody so early on. Hence my fear above, and also my reluctance to give up just yet. I believe that he also really enjoys our time together, with more depth than just a physical connection, but I think we're both aware that my feelings for him at this point are stronger.

 

The main reason I've been second guessing my original stance is that all week I've been thinking to myself, "goddammit, I really miss being around him."

 

In fact one of my friends remarked today that something that sets this guy apart from others I've dated is that I really seem to like spending time with him, where she got the sense I didn't even like most of my exes.

 

Things he has said in our conversation constantly pop up in my brain, because they're so relevant to my own thoughts about the world. I've never had the experience of somebody "infiltrating" my mind so fast, which is a little scary.

 

Just because someone is an awesome person (albeit with your rose colored, don't-know-him-very-well glasses on), and you enjoy time with him, doesn't mean you're compatible or want the same things. Don't forget that.

 

Not every person you have a superficial connection with is meant to be your partner.

[Star Gazer]

Be clear about what you really have, and really don't have.

 

What she had when she was having sex with him, was a sexual friendship with a guy who said he was looking for casual sex. She needs to remember that, and not get lost in her own fantasy.

[hearttobreak]

I don't think so. I ended mine back in July very similarly. We originally talked, and we both wanted a serious relationship. Four months later, she then says I am not looking for something serious now. Not only that, but she doesn't see moving in with me or the relationship having any chance of marriage. Next day I broke it off with her. I sometimes regret it, and I know she hates me for it, but she put us in that place, not me. Though, she of course now sees it a different way. Where, everything was perfect to her and I was the one who had the problem. She now will not talk to me or even acknowledge me on the street.

 

Trust me, it much better getting it over with early on than dragging it on for months. Rip it off like a band aid. If that is what your gut was telling you, then you made the correct decision.

[Star Gazer]

Good question. Because we didn't meet online. When I saw his profile, I broached the subject of what he was looking for. This was before we had that email exchange. He basically left it ambiguous and said before he met me he had only wanted something casual, but he was open to the possibility of getting serious once we got to know each other better.

 

But before you even slept together, you had an explicit conversation with him:

 

"When I broached the subject initially he left it ambiguous whether or not he was willing to pursue something serious with me."

 

It's all on YOU for continuing seeing him and choosing to sleep with him in light of his purposeful ambiguity. If he wanted to be exclusive with you, if he wanted to make you his, if he wanted a relationship, he would have said so. Instead, he purposefully didn't.

 

He told you everything you needed to hear; you just refused (and continue to refuse) to liste.

[welikeincrowds]

I have to admit, I agree with the warnings Star Gazer is giving you.

 

Granted, I still think you should continue to date him. And I mean what I said, "little else matters." That goes for you, too. It would be unfair of you to place outside expectations, especially given his candor. But I would hope that you keep your wits about you, so that you can enjoy what is in front of you while being mindful of what is not.

[Star Gazer]

Granted, I still think you should continue to date him. And I mean what I said, "little else matters." That goes for you, too. It would be unfair of you to place outside expectations, especially given his candor. But I would hope that you keep your wits about you, so that you can enjoy what is in front of you while being mindful of what is not.

 

Can I ask you why you think she should continue dating him when he specifically told her he couldn't give her what she wanted, and that it was okay if she bailed because of that?

 

Are you suggesting she ignore her own wants and needs, because of...hope?

[welikeincrowds]

Can I ask you why you think she should continue dating him when he specifically told her he couldn't give her what she wanted, and that it was okay if she bailed because of that?

 

Are you suggesting she ignore her own wants and needs, because of...hope?

 

Not at all. I am suggesting that she not act out of considerations of the future, but the present. In fact, I might say that leaving him now would be acting in hope -- abandoning a presently good thing in the hope that someone else "better" is out there.

 

Of course, someone else, and maybe someone else better, is always out there. But it seems someone great is also right here.

 

I only suggest that she continue to date him because I am not convinced that what she has here are really wants, but fears, which will prevent her from genuinely enjoying this. Note that she, too, is not sure if she wants a relationship with him at all. What she actually wanted is to hear what she wants to hear about the future. You might call that "security", and you might say he is not giving that to her. But from what she has told us, nothing about what this guy has said or done has indicated anything but trustworthiness and honesty, and that is the true basis for security.

 

Fortune tellers make a living telling people what they want to hear. "Perfect matches" end a few weeks later, with one person left to wonder what happened. That he is forthcoming in his response to her, and that he is willing to concede that she leave him, is not a red flag to me, but a sign of good will and good moral character. And in all other respects, he seems like a good match for her, for now.

 

I wonder if my position seems to conflict with yours: "Find a good relationship, and from that you will find a good person." I think it goes something like that... anyway. It would seem on the surface that she hasn't found someone who is willing to have the sort of relationship she would like to have. From that you would think: no brainer, leave him! I would agree -- but what I actually see here are signs of a great relationship, so long as it is respected for what it is and isn't, right now.

 

...Of course, if the thought of him seeing other women makes her feel that their relationship is disingenuous, even if it actually isn't -- well, I can't argue with those feelings. They may be irrational, but I concede that they are powerful, having felt them myself, and it's probably not worth the trouble of trying to fight them if she knows it's going to be a war. But again -- he isn't lying to her about this. It's not about him. If she delights in him, then little else should matter.

[Star Gazer]

And in all other respects, he seems like a good match for her, for now.

 

What I actually see here are signs of a great relationship...

 

Can you explain how he's a good match for her, for now, given that he can't give her what she wants, for now?

 

Or what the signs of a great relationship are, when she's expressed her needs and wants, and he's said he can't meet them?

 

Honestly? Can you give me examples of any of that?

 

Because this is how I see it:

 

Jane: "Hi Joe, I'd like a peanut butter sandwich right now, and every time I eat in the future. I am not interested in and do not want a ham sandwich."

 

Joe: "Hi Jane, all I've got is a ham sandwich to share. I don't know if I'll ever have peanut butter available."

 

You: "Oh gee wiz, you're such a great match for each other!!"

 

Really?

 

What am I missing??

[tigressA]

I can really see where welikeincrowds and SG are both coming from, OP. Actually, welike sounds very reminiscent of a dear friend of mine...anyway, while I agree with welike's assertion that the honesty and chemistry, etc, do make a good relationship and you two would be a good match, I have to side with SG. She makes the ultimate point that you would not be getting exactly what you said you wanted/needed from this guy if you continue to see him, and when that happens, there's no possible way to be truly happy or content with how things are.

[Ariadne]

1) My fear is getting emotionally attached to him and discovering down the line he doesn't ever want a relationship with me.

 

No, he doesn't ever want to have a relationship with you and that is clear for him.

 

He is only willing to see you 4 times a month as fwb and wonders why would you even want that.

 

Since you told him you didn't want a guy who has multiple sex partners, he replied that that is not what he meant and asked you again.

 

I don't see any problem here since I don't think there is any chance that you fall in love with this guy for more than two months.

[welikeincrowds]

What am I missing??

 

Well, for one thing, your analogy isn't quite accurate. She does want the ham sandwich; otherwise there wouldn't be a thread here. Also, she's not sure that she wants the peanut butter sandwich right now. She just thinks she might in the future. And he does too, although with less certainty. What she does know is that she happens to like peanut butter.

 

But anyway, you're missing the most important thing: the delight! The whole point! I appreciate and admire your pragmatism but you've gutted the feeling. It does matter.

 

And yes, you can get that feeling with someone else. But she has it right now. Which leads me to my second concern...

 

given that he can't give her what she wants, for now?

...Hold on now, are you certain about this? I agree that he hasn't given her everything she wants -- but I don't think she actually needs everything she wants. From what I see -- and this is why I specifically asked her those two questions, go back and read her answers! -- there are two real wants here.

 

The first: she wants to be with him. She is thinking about him and she enjoys his company. She is attracted to him and has sexual chemistry. And she feels that she has lost something comparatively significant by ending it.

 

The second: she wants to know that she won't get hurt. She'll never know this. Her bet may have been stronger had he said "Yes I'm looking for a serious relationship," but it's still a gamble; and his forthrightness pulls just as much weight.

 

And beyond that, I don't see any other wants. Do you? "Relationship," "boyfriend," etc., in the context of this thread and this person, are just terms that vaguely circle these two real concerns.

 

All relationships involve moments of risk, and I think this is one she should take. I hope that she can reconcile her feelings and value what she has, with a healthy wariness of the future, and not fear. And I think your advice discounts what is positive now by placing too much importance an aspect that isn't yet, and doesn't have to be, relevant. Again, she isn't ready to enter a relationship herself. This is not yet an issue -- she's just afraid that it could become one. I suggest that it doesn't ever have to be. Her pacing is under control, and in fact it still matches his; and she hasn't given me a reason to believe that she can't keep it that way (I don't gather that from her moment of doubt).

 

I guess what it comes down to is, predictably, expectations. We all take for granted that relationships go somewhere. I don't think this one can only go nowhere, but that's not the point; no one takes for granted that the pleasure for this sort of travel isn't in the destination, but in the voyage, do they? Allow me to sound like I just like to hear myself talk by beating this analogy into the ground. The destination is just a metaphor for the bitter end, the same one all things face. Why cancel a voyage you know you'd enjoy because you also fear that it will end? You knew it would already, didn't you? And you never knew when?

 

I'll end by saying I don't think she'd be making a grave mistake if she called it off with him, either. No harm, no foul. And it's just dating, after all.

 

Actually, welike sounds very reminiscent of a dear friend of mine

I'm trying to think... but I don't think anyone I know drinks hpnotiq

[Star Gazer]

Well, for one thing, your analogy isn't quite accurate. She does want the ham sandwich; otherwise there wouldn't be a thread here. Also, she's not sure that she wants the peanut butter sandwich right now. She just thinks she might in the future. And he does too, although with less certainty. What she does know is that she happens to like peanut butter.

 

You realize OP is Shadowplay/coloredinks, right? Do you know her history with guys? You do realize that what she wants, longs for, fantasizes about, is to be in a LTR with someone who loves her...not casual sex, right?

 

Because that's where I'm coming from with my advice.

[welikeincrowds]

you realize op is shadowplay/coloredinks, right?

 

HOLY ****ING LOL.

 

I take everything back.

Edited October 23, 2010 by welikeincrowds
They took away my ****ing all caps.

[Star Gazer]

HOLY ****ING LOL.

 

I take everything back.

 

Thought you might.

 

I'm sure you understand my peanut butter/ham sandwich analogy better now.

[welikeincrowds]

God damn. And here I thought I was really giving appropriate advice. What a sneaky snake.

 

I had to go back and re-read everything. Suddenly a line like this:

 

My fear is getting emotionally attached to him

 

...holds a LOT more weight.

 

I think you made the right choice the first time, SP. This isn't really a fear so much as it is a blatant inevitability for you. I appreciate your clear-headedness in that decision. You really need a better bet if you're going to gamble with your savings.

[OceanGirl]

No, he doesn't ever want to have a relationship with you and that is clear for him.

 

He is only willing to see you 4 times a month as fwb and wonders why would you even want that.

 

Since you told him you didn't want a guy who has multiple sex partners, he replied that that is not what he meant and asked you again.

 

I don't see any problem here since I don't think there is any chance that you fall in love with this guy for more than two months.

 

That's a bit harsh

[Star Gazer]

God damn. And here I thought I was really giving appropriate advice. What a sneaky snake.

 

FWIW, if I ever find myself in an emotional situation and need to be kept grounded, you'll be one of the posters who I hope responds. You're very well reasoned, when you know the truth, anyway.

[welikeincrowds]

FWIW, if I ever find myself in an emotional situation and need to be kept grounded, you'll be one of the posters who I hope responds. You're very well reasoned, when you know the truth, anyway.

 

Do you mind if I put you as a reference on my resume

[Ariadne]

That's a bit harsh

 

How are you doing today OG?

 

Well, that's how I see things here.

 

I also think people are wrongly advising her that she "did the right thing" and cut the guy off when she will not resist to see the guy or to write to him.

 

Eventually things will get worked out.

[stillafool]

That's a bit harsh

 

Maybe, but true.