did I make a mistake?

[Jannah]

Jannah, aside from reading the forums, I read a LOT of relationship books, written by men, as well as talk to a LOT of men offline. Like those I meet for online dating and it's not going to work out, I usually posit my relationship questions to them, and they are all pretty honest and fairly consistent. So I would say I have a bit more insight into where a man is coming from when it comes to relationships and how he views the woman and titles and such.

 

That certainly does not make you any more insightful than anyone else here.

 

I understand what you are saying, but the fact still remains the same. The OP and the man she is referencing, want different things.

 

Yes, men are territorial. But if it takes a female f*cking someone else, in order for him to want her, well I can't help but find that to be off putting.

[atlnay]

That certainly does not make you any more insightful than anyone else here.

 

I understand what you are saying, but the fact still remains the same. The OP and the man she is referencing, want different things.

 

Yes, men are territorial. But if it takes a female f*cking someone else, in order for him to want her, well I can't help but find that to be off putting.

 

I didn't have a chance to go back and edit it to say I have more insight "than before"

 

As for the last part, you are oversimplifying it a bit and honestly the forum/typing isn't going to help me explain it to you any better.

 

But no it's not as simply as a female effing someone else. You found what he posted "hilarious" I was just offering my take. Don't be off putted if you feel otherwise...

[FructoseGrande]

Fructose, I'm a chick and I TOTALLY get what you are saying and do agree.

 

LOL, so what are you doing here? You obviously don't belong, you're too rational.

 

 

What's interesting about this forum to me, is, if you read it long enough, two patterns emerge.

 

Yes, and they're the same as a Jim Carrey movie: "Dumb and Dumber."

 

 

The guy is honest from the beginning, about seeing other women etc, and an OP wants to either change that or is upset about it and people bash the dude...for being HONEST...not seeing that after a month, or less in some cases, what the OP wants and is doing is a bit much.

 

Yup guys can't win.

 

 

Or version two, the guy is deceptive, tells the OP what they want to hear, just to get & keep the sex, then the OP finds out he was cheating and they are just devastated. Whereas had he been honest in the beginning, like the first dude, he'd get bashed.

 

You're an astoundingly intelligent woman, has anyone ever told you that?

 

It's almost like men can't win for losing.

 

Not saying women are to blame and men are blameless but most of these scenarios, after a very short time of dating or even knowing each other have such extreme expectations, that always seems to fall on the man. Eh.

 

 

This is becoming my favorite word lately. An awful lot of people, both male and female, seem to approach relationships with a lot of "expectations" that amount to rather delusional wish-fulfillment.

 

There was a recent thread by a guy named Lakeside Runner who was mulling over whether or not to continue going out with some woman he had dated a few times but apparently didn't find hot enough or something, even though the way he described her made her seem perfectly nice and had her stuff together.

 

Now, this guy has some notion of pulling some super hot "10" jocky triathalon woman or something, so evidently the real live actually-available woman, who has actually expressed a real interest in him, simply isn't good enough. She probably doesn't know she's in competition with an utter fantasy.

 

I put the question to Lakeside and I don't think he liked it: "Dude do you have any other options? Real options?"

 

Of course the answer was "No." This guy doesn't have any other gf's or even any other real prospects.

 

So here you have a guy ready to dump a perfectly nice girl and potentially perfectly good relationship for....NOTHING. He even said "I would be happy being single" to which I called "bs" as if he was happy being single (no one really is), why is he even posting about it here?

 

So what was his justification? He doesn't want to "settle." I wanted to say, but didn't, "Dude: Why do you think it would be you who'd be settling and not the girl in this particular situation?" But I didn't, guess I was trying to be marginally polite.

 

So, that's how a lot of people think. They don't want the practical/possible/real/realistic. In fact they are too often willing to trade what "is" for a complete fantasy.

 

Because I guess a lot of people think they are just too good for what they can actually get a hold of, so they don't want to "settle."

 

The reality is that anyone with the dating chops and being pursued by lots of people of the other sex, or with lots of options, isn't wasting too much time fretting over this stuff and posting thousands of posts at Love Shack (like Ocean Girl) minutely analyzing her date's bowel movements to try to determine whether the guy loved her or not.

 

They're out having non-neurotic, good clean (or dirty) fun.

 

So I say to the OP, Ocean Girl, and all the other critics: You got other options? GO FOR IT.

[Jannah]

I didn't have a chance to go back and edit it to say I have more insight "than before"

 

As for the last part, you are oversimplifying it a bit and honestly the forum/typing isn't going to help me explain it to you any better.

 

But no it's not as simply as a female effing someone else. You found what he posted "hilarious" I was just offering my take. Don't be off putted if you feel otherwise...

 

I'm not...I was merely referring to FG's advice to the OP.

[FructoseGrande]

 

Yes, men are territorial. But if it takes a female f*cking someone else, in order for him to want her, well I can't help but find that to be off putting.

 

Am I reading this correctly Jannah? If a man desires a woman sexually, you find that to be offensive? LOL.

 

So are you saying you've only ever had totally chaste relationships with men?

 

OK whatever. That wouldn't work for me nor dare I say any of the people I actually know in real life.

 

Wow I am indeed learning something new everyday here.

 

Thanks so much for the fresh insights.

[Jannah]

Am I reading this correctly Jannah? If a man desires a woman sexually, you find that to be offensive? LOL.

 

So are you saying you've only ever had totally chaste relationships with men?

 

OK whatever. That wouldn't work for me nor dare I say any of the people I actually know in real life.

 

Wow I am indeed learning something new everyday here.

 

Thanks so much for the fresh insights.

 

Nope. Once again, you are twisting people's words...which is becoming quite a theme for you.

 

And, you're welcome.

[atlnay]

I'm not...I was merely referring to FG's advice to the OP.

 

*sigh* THAT is another example of why tone/context is lost via typing.

 

But yea, I got that.

[atlnay]

Oh and Jannah don't feel as if FG and I are ganging on on you

 

We just happen to be replying back and forth (not saying you were but it tends to happen here that people misinterpret dialogue, especially when it's contrary, to someone being picked on vs. adults just having a discussion with different views)

 

[FructoseGrande]

Nope. Once again, you are twisting people's words...which is becoming quite a theme for you.

 

And, you're welcome.

 

So, you're saying it only works one way? Sexual jealousy is only a "legitimate" emotion if someone like the OP, a female, feels it, and as a result insists on exclusivity? Whereas if a man feels it, it's an "illegitimate" emotion?

 

Nice double standard ya got there.

[Jannah]

Oh and Jannah don't feel as if FG and I are ganging on on you

 

We just happen to be replying back and forth (not saying you were but it tends to happen here that people misinterpret dialogue, especially when it's contrary, to someone being picked on vs. adults just having a discussion with different views)

 

 

I don't think that.

 

My initial concern was for the OP, it just seemed as though FG was trying to steer her in the wrong direction.

 

My apologies, if I am mistaken.

[FructoseGrande]

Oh and Jannah don't feel as if FG and I are ganging on on you

 

We just happen to be replying back and forth (not saying you were but it tends to happen here that people misinterpret dialogue, especially when it's contrary, to someone being picked on vs. adults just having a discussion with different views)

 

 

 

Yes again. A lot of people on the internet, and I guess that includes here obviously, don't perceive a discussion forum as a place to actually discuss anything.

 

Instead it's a place for someone to "vent" emotionally with the purpose of getting affirmation for the "venting" rather than listen to different opinions about the situation.

 

So that's why you have someone responding like jannah is, although she's actually pretty mild about it compared to a lot of others.

 

OP's whole "issue" is that she's sexually jealous of her ex, in fact so jealous that she broke up with him over it. Yet when I made the rather trite and non-novel point that guys often react exactly the same way--that is, if they realize the girl is being pursued by other guys, she becomes a much more highly valued "prize,"--that's for some reason very offensive to jannah.

 

It's ironic because in this thread it's the OP, a woman, jealous of a man, not because he actually had sex with anyone else, but merely at the thought that he might.

 

So rather than acknowledge the trite reality--that people do have these emotions and this is the way they react, exactly as OP has reacted--jannah prefers to pretend that in her world, people don't behave the way they do.

 

The way that OP behaved.

 

But when you fail to acknowledge reality about human behavior, for political or emotional or ideological or whatever reasons jannah has, then you basically render anything you have to contribute to the discussion totally irrelevant. It's just propaganda. It doesn't help anyone to pretend that people don't have feelings of sexual jealousy and that they behave in certain ways in response to those feelings.

 

Does anyone seriously believe that OP would have been so quick to seek exclusivity if she perceived herself as having numerous/other/"better" potential options, and her ex as not being in such an advantageous position?

 

Of course not. She saw him as highly desirable and wanted to lock him down quickly because she perceived him as highly desirable and relatively speaking more highly desirable than herself. That may or may not be a perception that others would share, but nevertheless it exists, and it plausibly explains the situation.

 

Whereas jannah would simply turn up her nose and say "Oh my, people aren't sexually jealous, let's not talk about that, all this happened because OP's ex was a beast."

 

Same type of thinking that would motivate OG to lambaste her ex for getting into a successful committed relationship because it was with someone else, not her. He must be a beast too I guess.

[Jannah]

**sigh** maybe you would get more people to agree with you, over in the OM/OW forum...

[Star Gazer]

What makes it questionable in this particular case, is that he told the OP, that he was not looking to jump into a serious relationship with anyone, only AFTER they slept together and only AFTER she approached him with the "what are we" status.

 

That's actually not really true. She said in another thread that he even had on his profile that what all he was looking for was "casual sex."

 

See? http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3052827&postcount=21

Edited October 22, 2010 by Star Gazer

[Jannah]

That's actually not really true. She said in another thread that he even had on his profile that what all he was looking for was "casual sex."

 

Oh. I did not see that. If that is the case, then I retract my paragraph above that you quoted.

[Star Gazer]

Oh. I did not see that. If that is the case, then I retract my paragraph above that you quoted.

 

She said it in someone else's thread.

 

It's the kinda piece of information that changes the story entirely...right?

[Jannah]

She said it in someone else's thread.

 

It's the kinda piece of information that changes the story entirely...right?

 

That must be why I missed it, I only read the threads she created/posted.

 

Yes, it certainly changes the dynamic.

[souvlaki]

I've been emotionally wringing my hands over this one.

 

I've talked to a number of people the past week, on and off LS, and they have all given me wildly different advice. On LS the consensus (aside from Fructose) seems to be that I should cut him off totally. Off LS, a few people have told me that I was jumping the gun, and should continue to see him without sex and wait a few more weeks to decide since we had just started dating. In fact a couple of friends chided me for breaking things off with him so soon! Sigh.

 

I keep flip flopping.

 

He wants to see me again next week, as friends presumably. I left things up in the air, but reiterated to him again that if we do see each other we won't be having sex, and he said, "I certainly *like* having sex but it's hardly the only attraction, and I imagine we'll still have a good time in non-physical capacities."

 

I've thought a lot about this, and the only thing I can imagine realistically being comfortable with is something between platonic friends and fwbs: in other words, not having sex but still being able to kiss. I think a strictly non physical relationship would only frustrate me, and a sexual relationship would depress me. I've never had a problem refraining from sex, so I'm not worried about a slippery slope. I'm more concerned that I have no clue whether this type of arrangement would even feel alright. It's something I've never tried before.

 

Still, I'm totally on the fence about whether to see him again. I've literally gone back and forth in my head about five times over the course of the day.

 

The good news is I've managed to refrain from impulsively messaging him until I come to a firm decision.

Edited October 22, 2010 by souvlaki

[xpaperxcutx]

If I was friends with a guy, I wouldn't kiss him intimately.

 

I don't know what your definition of a " friend" is, but you don't harbor feelings for them let alone allow anything physical to happen.

[Str8noChaser]

He wants to see me again next week, as friends presumably.

 

 

Doubtful.

 

I left things up in the air,

 

That is where you had the power to dictate what you expected. Leaving it up in the air allows him a LOT of wiggle room.

 

 

the only thing I can imagine realistically being comfortable with is something between platonic friends and fwbs: in other words, not having sex but still being able to kiss.

 

That is fine and reasonable if that's all you feel comfortable with. But I'll let you know this upfront, if he's already had sex with you he will NOT be happy to just kiss you from this point forward.

 

I think a strictly non physical relationship would only frustrate me, and a sexual relationship would depress me.

 

How old are you? Not trying to be funny, but are you out of high school?

[souvlaki]

^^

What I meant by "up in the air" is whether I'd see him next week.

 

I really don't think he's a bad guy, or that he's trying to take advantage of me. Bear in mind, I know him much better than anybody reading this thread does, since we've spent time a fair amount of time together in real life.

 

He knows I don't want to have sex with him anymore and he's told me explicitly that he's fine with that. He's a really smart guy, and he knows better than to try to weasel me into having sex with him again given the boundaries I've clearly drawn.

 

I do think he has *good intentions*. The question is how I'd FEEL if we kept hanging out minus the sex. I have no clue. This is why I'm drawing a ? about whether to see him again.

[souvlaki]

If I was friends with a guy, I wouldn't kiss him intimately.

 

I don't know what your definition of a " friend" is, but you don't harbor feelings for them let alone allow anything physical to happen.

 

Yeah, and I wouldn't call him a friend. *If* -- and I still am 50/50 about whether to proceed with this -- but if we continued to date non-exclusively minus the sex I don't think there would be a clear definition for what we were.

 

Does there always need to be? I think we'd just be two people getting to know each other better who enjoy each other's company and find each other attractive. I agree that definitions are useful and often necessary once some time has passed, but we're just getting to know each other right now.

[Str8noChaser]

I really don't think he's a bad guy, or that he's trying to take advantage of me. Bear in mind, I know him much better than anybody reading this thread does, since we've spent time a fair amount of time together in real life.

 

I made no judgment on your guy. You started the thread asking if you made a mistake.

 

He knows I don't want to have sex with him anymore and he's told me explicitly that he's fine with that. He's a really smart guy, and he knows better than to try to weasel me into having sex with him again given the boundaries I've clearly drawn.

 

I do think he has *good intentions*. The question is how I'd FEEL if we kept hanging out minus the sex. I have no clue. This is why I'm drawing a ? about whether to see him again.

 

Sounds like this is all about you so I will stop asking about him. Why are you drawing a ? about whether to see him again if he is fine with not having sex with you, which is what you want?

[xpaperxcutx]

Yeah, and I wouldn't call him a friend. *If* -- and I still am 50/50 about whether to proceed with this -- but if we continued to date non-exclusively minus the sex I don't think there would be a clear definition for what we were.

 

Does there always need to be? I think we'd just be two people getting to know each other better who enjoy each other's company and find each other attractive. I agree that definitions are useful and often necessary once some time has passed, but we're just getting to know each other right now.

 

But you're selling yourself short. To speak for you, you certainly never wanted to be placed in a position where you're just there for sex. I'm more than certain and, as everyone else has stated, that you want a exclusive relationship with commitment.

 

Why then do you feel like having his " friendship" is worth all the agonizing that you do?

 

Besides I doubt you truly accept wanting to date non- exclusively. If that was the case, sex would be far from the problem.

[souvlaki]

But you're selling yourself short. To speak for you, you certainly never wanted to be placed in a position where you're just there for sex. I'm more than certain and, as everyone else has stated, that you want a exclusive relationship with commitment.

 

Why then do you feel like having his " friendship" is worth all the agonizing that you do?

 

Besides I doubt you truly accept wanting to date non- exclusively. If that was the case, sex would be far from the problem.

 

You're right, I do want a commitment in general, and this arrangement is less than totally satisfying to me.

 

There are a few BUT's, though.

 

-I feel like it might have been unfair for me to expect him to want exclusivity after only a few dates and fairly recently ending a bad relationship.

 

-He did say that he sees potential for us to seriously date down the road, but he's not there at the moment. Isn't that pretty reasonable? If I cut him off totally now, I have a hunch I'm closing that possibility for the future.

 

-I'm just wondering if I should be more patient. A lot of people take time to decide they want to be exclusive with somebody, especially if they're getting over a bad experience. Why not slow things down by cutting out the sex and just get to know each other better in a less physical way? Honestly, I'm not even entirely sure if I'd want him as a boyfriend. It could turn out he's just emotionally unavailable in general, and it's not merely bad timing. My friend who has known him for much longer than I have said he's a great friend but she wouldn't date him (though she didn't elaborate on why).

 

-I wrote him my first message basically to gauge whether he saw any potential for us in the future, knowing he probably didn't want to be exclusive just yet. Then, when I read his response, which affirmed all of the above, I flipped out and told him I couldn't see him at all anymore.

 

-In reflection, I think what bothered me was that we were already sleeping together despite not being exclusive. If we had just been dating without sex, I wouldn't have had the expectation of exclusivity.

 

Again, I'm just playing the devil's advocate here. I can find reasons to support both angles, which is why I'm on the fence.

[stillafool]

That's actually not really true. She said in another thread that he even had on his profile that what all he was looking for was "casual sex."

 

See? http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3052827&postcount=21

 

Souvlaki, if you knew this guy was only looking for "casual sex" and it was listed on his profile, how can you expect to be exclusive? Or a better question would be if you knew you wanted an exclusive relationship why did you chose someone who stated they were only interested in "casual sex"?