Is She or Isn't She

[karnak]

Be sincere with us and yourself, Redstar.

 

What is your gut telling you?

[strength-abounds]

Dude, I am sorry to say, but you are now plan B.

 

Sorry.

[PegNosePete]

I've got to disagree with you here, my friend. Confronting without proof will ONLY get more lies...not a confession, nor will it end the affair.

Maybe I am the exception to the rule, then. I had some dodgy texts and other red flags but no actual proof, and no idea she was having a PA. I confronted with just a take-no-BS attitude, without revealing any of my info. She denied it of course but I didn't back down and within 5 minutes she confessed all. After that she asked who told me... to this day I never told her how I found out, or that I didn't have any real proof.

 

In my opinion... if you know she's having an affair, even without 100% proof, you don't need a confession. But if you want a reconciliation, then she needs to admit what she's done and accept the consequences. If she can't do that, with or without 100% proof waved in her face, then it won't work.

Edited October 25, 2010 by PegNosePete

[Owl]

Or I'm the exception. My wife (like so many other stories I've read here in my time on LS) wouldn't admit to anything...until she had no choice in the matter.

 

Prior to that she dodged and minimized their relationship everytime I raised a concern. Even some gaslighting.

 

Once confronted, her initial reaction (again like so many I've seen) wasn't to reconcile, but to continue the affair.

 

BUT...once faced with true consequences and enforced boundaries...she realized that her fantasy world view of what she thought things would work out like was a far different cry than what reality was shaping up to be.

 

This was over six years ago...and we're very happily recovered.

 

So you can see why I say "get the proof, and then confront".

 

I've found from the stories here and my own personal experience that it's pretty uncommon for a WS to "fess up" without that proof. And I've seen a decent few marriages recover even though that 'proof' was required.

[PegNosePete]

I think we're both exceptions, then

 

Personally I wouldn't want her back if I had to rub 100% proof in her face until she could deny it no more. If I were to take her back I'd want her to admit it of her own free will. That's just how I feel, glad it worked out for you though

[Owl]

I think we're both exceptions, then

 

Personally I wouldn't want her back if I had to rub 100% proof in her face until she could deny it no more. If I were to take her back I'd want her to admit it of her own free will. That's just how I feel, glad it worked out for you though

 

I can understand that, Pete. For us, prior to that last rotten year leading up to her EA, we'd had 17 years of wonderful marriage to use as a foundation to rebuild from.

 

Things had been too good for too long for me to not to fight to save our marriage. And the issues that led to her affair were treatable.

 

But like I said...I can also see your side. Had things been less good between us, or other circumstances...we wouldn't have reconciled.

[PegNosePete]

Oh yeah I can totally understand after 17 years!

 

For me, 9 months and no kids... divorce time!

[Binster]

Have you checked her car and the house for a spare phone.

Also I would try a voice activated recorder in her car.

And maybe tell her you'll be away for a weekend (Fri night till Sun night) leave a recorder in the house, and come home early Sun morning.

[Redstar]

Hey Guys,

 

We'll it's been a few days since my last reply, herewith the latest:

 

I'm definitely in agreement that I won't confront until I have concrete proof or at least irrefutable proof.

 

So over the last couple of days, as I said before my wife has made massive massive changes in, she is my original wife of 4 months ago. I'm now reasonably convinced her EA has completely ended. She is now leaving her laptop open wherever, forgets it even in certain parts of the house, this includes her cellphone etc.

 

I've double and triple checked that she doesn't have a second or backup phone that she might be hiding somewhere. I've also as stated before upgraded her cellphone monitoring software which included GPS, Surrounding Recording (U can activate her phone without her knowing and listen in to any noise or conversation etc), Call Intercepting, Instant Messaging, Text, Photo's etc

 

I can report that I've honestly not been able to pick up any suspicious activity this even includes her GPS & Call Intercept & Surrounding Recording (Which is just as good as a recorder in her car)

 

More so, I've even started to intercept her work email address as well as her personal email addy (The one I know about) without any results.

 

Hence I believe the moment I started monitoring everything (without her having the faintest of idea that I am doing this) the EA was already over or in it's last minutes of life. Unfortunately this places me in a predicament or cross roads if you will. I'm confident to state now that I don't think I'll find any EA info currently or in the near future. However the fact remains that my gut and the signs as you all have commented clearly indicated infidelity.

 

Question now is:

 

1. Be happy it's over, get on with my life and make sure this never happens again ?

 

2. Confront without proof and take it from there ?

 

3. Keep monitoring her for the next couple of months in case her EA starts up again or they attempt to make contact with one another ?

 

Once again thank you so much to everybody who replied, it's really a exceptional feeling to know I'm not alone and other knowledgeable people have shared their similar experiences.

 

Thanks again

 

The Red

[karnak]

 

Question now is:

 

1. Be happy it's over, get on with my life and make sure this never happens again ?

 

2. Confront without proof and take it from there ?

 

3. Keep monitoring her for the next couple of months in case her EA starts up again or they attempt to make contact with one another ?

 

 

Fortunately, nothing showed up. I hope it was all a temporary crisis in her head, and that there never was an affair to begin with.

 

As for the future, well...

 

It's proven that most divorces/decisions to begin affairs take place at the beginning of the new year. If you check LS during the first 3 months of 2011 you'll see what I mean. It's a psychological thing... the XMas time leads one to think about our lives (past Xmas, where we were then, where we thought we would by year xxxx, etc...) and the approach of a new year leads us to question our present lives and what to do concerning our future.

 

If your wife indeed had something outside of your marriage it's a sign that there's something wrong in your relationship. If that's the case she'll take some decisions and actions in the coming months.

 

I'd probably wait some more months then. If (until June 2011) there are no more "incidents" then you can rest assured that your marriage will probably last for the remainder of your days without any more problems.

 

If you start to notice something odd again, well... you'd better pay special attention.

 

What does everyone else think?

[LiveWell]

If whatever is going on inside your wife that led her to this EA (and/or PA if that's what it was) is not properly addressed, odds are very good the issue will recur. Ignoring the fundamental issue, whatever it is, may be sweeping it under the rug.

 

That's the problem with this sort of thing. It's like being the spouse of an untreated diabtetic who goes into insulin shock. Yes the immediate issue can be addressed by an ambulance call and trip to the E/R. But if the underlying diabetes is never treated, and the behaviors causing it to manifest itself, then when the same set of circumstances which caused the first insulin shock incident happen to recur in the future, it can and most likely will happen again.

[LiveWell]

Redstar,

 

I went back to read your original post.

 

Your wife is a lawyer. That means she's highly intelligent.

 

You have access to the internet; so does she.

 

Things like all that plastic surgery indicate she has some serious self esteem and body image issues which she might believe having an affair plays into (validation of her desirability after the kids, perhaps).

 

It is HIGHLY unusual for someone having even an EA to completely terminate it, cold turkey, from day one after being confronted about their behavior, even if the confrontation was not overtly about the cheating part of it.

 

It is far MORE likely that your wife immediately understood that you suspected her of having an affair and therefore has taken the entire thing, whatever its extent, "underground." That is, secret emails, phones, whatever. Very easy for someone to do. As a lawyer, she knows that you can win the case even if you should rightfully lose by removing the evidence.

 

She already knows all about keyloggers, email hacking, cell phone hacking and what not. All this stuff is pretty easily accessible to learn about on the net. She would have to be pretty careless to leave incriminating stuff accessible to you on a computer that you would have access to to hack into. Lawyers are very sensitive to this stuff anyway because they have to protect client confidentiality so things like computer security are right in her strike zone, even if she's not an expert on the stuff personally.

 

The purchase of lingerie that you don't get to see, to me, is a huge red flag. She's buying it to show to someone, if not you, it HAS to be another guy. That's not an EA, that's a PA.

 

I'd say the next step for you is to actually spend the bucks to hire a Private Investigator to follow her around for a while, that might cost a few grand though. But if she's keeping a clean electronic trail, it will still be difficult for her to keep a clean physical trail. If she's meeting someone somewhere for sex (maybe lunchtime short term hotel room sex--hey it happens, a LOT) a PI might be able to get the goods on her and photos, etc.

 

As far as all this intelligence gathering, the only thing to add is "watch out" because I'm sure your wife is perfectly capable and willing to use "counterintelligence" on YOU. And she MAY HAVE already done that.

[Owl]

Livewell raises another question...has she displayed ANY symptoms of "withdrawl" since the end of the EA?

 

Withdrawl as in sadness, depression, mood swings, more distant, more clingy, etc...?

 

Because if there was an EA...and it ended...then she should have gone through a 'withdrawl' period. Basically, it's grieving the end/loss of a relationship. And it's almost impossible to hide it completely from someone, although it can be played off as happening for some other reason sometimes.

 

If she's not shown any signs of 'withdrawl', then I'd agree that either there was no EA, or it's not ended and just gone deeper underground.

[goingstrong]

Redstar,

 

Without being to callus, here it is. Your finding what you what to find...an EA without the PA. If that situation has gone on for more than a month or two, the OM will end it he doesn't get the physical part. As livewell said, the lingerie is for someone to see, and if it wasn't you, then it was for someone else. Maybe you got lucky and it didn't get to the PA level yet, but if you don't fix what is wrong, it will. Right now she is in damage control mode.

[Mangled]

People who are in affairs are suspicious people. They're likely to suspect that their spouses might be getting around with somebody else. So don't discount the possibility that your wife has already put software on your computer to track your use, whether because of a general suspicion of your own fidelity, or to monitor your behavior and make sure you're not on to her.

 

Have you considered this possibility? She's actually reading the posts you're making here?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Hence I believe the moment I started monitoring everything (without her having the faintest of idea that I am doing this) the EA was already over or in it's last minutes of life. Unfortunately this places me in a predicament or cross roads if you will. I'm confident to state now that I don't think I'll find any EA info currently or in the near future. However the fact remains that my gut and the signs as you all have commented clearly indicated infidelity.

 

That just doesn't seem very likely. High probability that she wasn't cheating, otherwise this guy would be contacting her. OR... it's 100% a work thing... which is also unlikely since you work together.

 

I'd say you should focus your attention on getting her into marriage counseling to improve your communication levels.

[michelangelo]

Redstar,

 

I went back to read your original post.

 

Your wife is a lawyer. That means she's highly intelligent.

 

You have access to the internet; so does she.

 

Things like all that plastic surgery indicate she has some serious self esteem and body image issues which she might believe having an affair plays into (validation of her desirability after the kids, perhaps).

 

It is HIGHLY unusual for someone having even an EA to completely terminate it, cold turkey, from day one after being confronted about their behavior, even if the confrontation was not overtly about the cheating part of it.

 

It is far MORE likely that your wife immediately understood that you suspected her of having an affair and therefore has taken the entire thing, whatever its extent, "underground." That is, secret emails, phones, whatever. Very easy for someone to do. As a lawyer, she knows that you can win the case even if you should rightfully lose by removing the evidence.

 

She already knows all about keyloggers, email hacking, cell phone hacking and what not. All this stuff is pretty easily accessible to learn about on the net. She would have to be pretty careless to leave incriminating stuff accessible to you on a computer that you would have access to to hack into. Lawyers are very sensitive to this stuff anyway because they have to protect client confidentiality so things like computer security are right in her strike zone, even if she's not an expert on the stuff personally.

 

The purchase of lingerie that you don't get to see, to me, is a huge red flag. She's buying it to show to someone, if not you, it HAS to be another guy. That's not an EA, that's a PA.

 

I'd say the next step for you is to actually spend the bucks to hire a Private Investigator to follow her around for a while, that might cost a few grand though. But if she's keeping a clean electronic trail, it will still be difficult for her to keep a clean physical trail. If she's meeting someone somewhere for sex (maybe lunchtime short term hotel room sex--hey it happens, a LOT) a PI might be able to get the goods on her and photos, etc.

 

As far as all this intelligence gathering, the only thing to add is "watch out" because I'm sure your wife is perfectly capable and willing to use "counterintelligence" on YOU. And she MAY HAVE already done that.

 

Nothing to add, very spot on posting.

[YellowShark]

That just doesn't seem very likely. High probability that she wasn't cheating, otherwise this guy would be contacting her. OR... it's 100% a work thing... which is also unlikely since you work together.

 

I'd say you should focus your attention on getting her into marriage counseling to improve your communication levels.

 

I do agree with the "marriage counseling to improve the communication levels" before any divorce papers are even drafted. But I have to disagree with the "100% a work thing" and revisit the OP.

 

Herewith the things that started to change 3-4 months ago:

 

1. She immediately went on a major diet to get to her original weight. (Normal)

 

2. She had her lips & eyes done shortly afterwards.

3. She got hair extensions. (Normal)

4. She had breast augmentation surgery i.e. B-cup to C-cup.

5. She had a complete wardrobe change. (Normal)

6. Brand new lingerie and allot of it (Still haven't seen them)

7. Suddenly changed all her passwords from Laptop, cellphone, FB etc.

8. No sex and I mean No Sex or any form of affection. (I don't beg)

9. We suddenly started fighting over the smallest of things.

 

10. She's had me move from spare bedroom to spare bedroom because the little one is sick and only sleeps better next to mommy.....

 

11. Her cellphone now suddenly is fused to her hip and never leaves her side.

 

12. Her cellphone now suddenly is Pin Protected something she we never do. (We always use to be easy with our phones, mine lays around everywhere

and if it rings she would pick it up or I use to do the same with her phone)

 

13. Her laptop use to be in the house and she would work on it at night, leave it standing open or whatever. These days she locks it in her car.

 

14. Normally she would stay up with me till around 10pm at night so that we could get in quality chat time with each other, she now goes to be at 8pm and 7/10 by the time I get to bed around 10, she's still awake and doing something on her phone.

 

15. The hello & goodbye morning & night kisses stopped and now I only get a cheek if I get anything at all.

 

16. The last time she said she loved me was over 2 weeks ago. Normal was 2 or even 3 times a day with lots of hugs & kisses.

 

17. She would phone or text message me throughout the day, this has also stopped entirely.

 

The Redstar

 

I can see #s 1,2,3,4,5,7,14 as somehow work related. But I can't possibly see #s 6,8,9,10,11,12,13,15,16,17 as work related Untouchable_Fire.

 

Sounds to me like what the other posters are saying. She ended it for now, or has gone deep underground.. (because she is also a lawyer who is educated in subterfuge.) Hell, one simple Google search on "infidelity" and anyone has a laundry list of red flags they can avoid so that they can hide an affair.

[Silly_Girl]

I think she has cheated. She has either put the affair on freeze whilst the dust settles, or ended it. If she's ended it I think there'll be another in the next 6-12 months.

 

Marriage counselling is vital. At least establishing the current status of the relationship will give you a start point from which to move forward.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I do agree with the "marriage counseling to improve the communication levels" before any divorce papers are even drafted. But I have to disagree with the "100% a work thing" and revisit the OP.

I can see #s 1,2,3,4,5,7,14 as somehow work related. But I can't possibly see #s 6,8,9,10,11,12,13,15,16,17 as work related Untouchable_Fire.

Sounds to me like what the other posters are saying. She ended it for now, or has gone deep underground.. (because she is also a lawyer who is educated in subterfuge.) Hell, one simple Google search on "infidelity" and anyone has a laundry list of red flags they can avoid so that they can hide an affair.

 

Sorry... what I meant was that the affair was 100% at work. In other words a co-worker that she had no need to connect with via cell or email.

 

When all those signs pile up it typically means something bad... but he should be able to find evidence. They are married he should have access to her phone records, emails, and credit cards. Comb through and look for anomalies.

 

I caught my GF earlier this year several times over just by doing some basic stuff. She had most of that list going on too. I found double occupancy hotel receipts in her suitcase, with BOTH of their credit card numbers on it. I eventually was able to catch her spending the night at his house even! She was SUPER sneaky too.... so if I can catch a GF based on limited resources... he either isn't digging hard enough or there isn't anything to find.

 

How does he know she bought new lingerie? Where is it? Why have they not used it?

[You Go Girl]

Some of you, with all your technology love, forget that the way to find out things from a woman is to talk to her.

Say, Whew, I was worried there. You seemed distant. I thought maybe you had your eye on someone else. Maybe it was paranoia, but I sure felt inadequate.

Then wait for a response.

She is not your number 1 war enemy, and you're not fighting each other to take over the world, and need to control each other's communication towers.

She's your wife. Talk to her.

[karnak]

Some of you, with all your technology love, forget that the way to find out things from a woman is to talk to her.

Say, (...) Then wait for a response.

 

She's your wife. Talk to her.

 

We all wished it was that simple.

 

Unfortunately (as it happened with me) you can look a woman in the eyes, ask her for the truth, and yet she will lie, lie, lie... all while working to destroy your life behind your back.

 

The only kind of people who will tell you the truth when you ask for it, are the ones who like you and respect you. You can forget about everyone else.

[Zara28]

That's quite obvious even if you read the various threads all over this forum.

 

Most of the women who have had infidelity issues come off as pathological liars. Unfaithful men might have the same trait but they don't seem to start nearly as many threads.

 

In any case cheating women at least here can't seem to string two consistent sentences together.

 

Are you male by any chance!

[Untouchable_Fire]

Some of you, with all your technology love, forget that the way to find out things from a woman is to talk to her.

Say, Whew, I was worried there. You seemed distant. I thought maybe you had your eye on someone else. Maybe it was paranoia, but I sure felt inadequate.

Then wait for a response.

She is not your number 1 war enemy, and you're not fighting each other to take over the world, and need to control each other's communication towers.

She's your wife. Talk to her.

 

Uh... if she is/was cheating then she would lie and say there are no other men. If she is faithful she will tell the truth and say there are no other men.

 

I mean... I agree that he should be talking to her... and it seems he is, because she has changed behaviors. However, if you think that accusing her of cheating will get you somewhere... I think your wrong.

 

Having dealt with 2 cheating GF's over the past few years... I can tell you for sure that they lie.

 

If she is cheating then she won't tell him until she is ready or until pinned down with proof. I'm sorry but that's just the way cheating spouses tend to work.

[You Go Girl]

Uh... if she is/was cheating then she would lie and say there are no other men. If she is faithful she will tell the truth and say there are no other men.

 

I mean... I agree that he should be talking to her... and it seems he is, because she has changed behaviors. However, if you think that accusing her of cheating will get you somewhere... I think your wrong.

 

Having dealt with 2 cheating GF's over the past few years... I can tell you for sure that they lie.

 

If she is cheating then she won't tell him until she is ready or until pinned down with proof. I'm sorry but that's just the way cheating spouses tend to work.

 

Well...if she is cheating, then yes, she will deny it.

However, my point is this: He installed some program on her cell, had all these thoughts about her behaviors in his head, BEFORE he spoke to her about her behavior.

When he did speak to her, she changed and went back to the woman he loved.

Isn't it a little disturbing? He puts survelliance on her BEFORE having an honest open discussion?

And his survelliance caught absolutely nothing. What if this woman was just into herself for awhile...instead of her marriage. What if, she's not cheating!

Now he's gone and violated her privacy, all without a prior conversation about her behavior!

Then the tables would be turned, wouldn't they? He would be the 'bad guy' of this story.

H has bad communication, is paranoid, violates privacy, and W is innocent?

Not saying this is the truth. But at this point, we have no evidence to the contrary.

So I say, if she is guilty of infidelity or not, that he should have had an open frank discussion long before deciding that violating her privacy and connecting all kinds of dots on her behavior was in order.

It was wrong on his part to violate her privacy, or even have suspicious thoughts, without a conversation to clear the air.