Can there be honesty in an A?

[on a learning curve]

I wanted to start this thread because Mynames' thread has raised some interesting questions for me. So, I am asking to be indulged a bit...

 

I'd like to know how OW feel about the concept of honesty and how it relates to their MM. In other words, do you trust your MM and why?

[GreenEyedLady]

Well, my experience makes me look at this topic a little differently.

 

I really believe that people who are in A's aren't being honest with anyone, including themselves.

 

At first...

 

And quite possibly never...

 

But honesty does happen and I think I've seen it happen a couple of ways.

 

The first of which is that the MM falls in love with the OW and can't continue living the way he's living and keep lying over and over. He wants a change, a chance at happiness and true love no matter the cost.

 

The second type being the one who really has little care of what his OW might think and he goes to cruel lengths to be truthful. And for those who have the FWB label this might fit in with the OW's plan and she doesn't care, therefore happy OW. It's just sex. Those who are hoping for more, not really good for self esteem and does more damage than good.

 

Everyone else seems to fall in half-truth land. The MM.MW desperately wants the OP for whatever reason: love, ego-boost etc. To keep the OP when they are shortchanged so very much they say what they think that OP needs to hear. And I really think it's tailored to the particular OP. And honestly, my H was in this category at the beginning of our R (ok, not exactly he full out lied but he tailored it to me). And sometimes it seems like when I read stories, that the MM probably does love the OP but just doesn't have the balls to say they're an a**hat.

 

And for the question that I always inevitably get, yes I trust my H. Number 1: he gives me no reason not too and Number 2: If I didn't, I wouldn't be with him. I don't believe in being in a R with someone you don't trust.

 

As for why, I think that's the indefineable (un?). I trust him. And for me, that's all that matters.

 

GEL

[on a learning curve]

Thank you, GEL. Great insight.

[Tayla]

From the farthest side ever to reach reality...yes...I think a person in an affair is very honest ...they are Very honestly acting on impulse or on emotions ....That does say alot ..actions speak louder then words...

 

On the flip side...they are being most dishonest with the current spouse....children......etc...

[on a learning curve]

From the farthest side ever to reach reality...yes...I think a person in an affair is very honest ...they are Very honestly acting on impulse or on emotions ....That does say alot ..actions speak louder then words...

 

On the flip side...they are being most dishonest with the current spouse....children......etc...

 

So, you think that the MM is honest with his lover?

 

I appreciate the flip side - I know there is dishonesty there.

[stoploss11]

i dont believe there is much if any honesty.

 

But im jaded at the moment. Mine isn't married but she's living w the baby's father. The baby is 15 months and we started inching into our relationship 9 months ago. Its ended now, but still no reasoning. She went from 100 to zero over night.

 

Now I doubt any and everything and it makes me crazy. I wish I just knew but searching for answers is probably worse.

 

So I don't believe in honesty from others right now.

 

I have a long ugly list of things that were to happen, some that did but on the greater scale I wonder how true it was. I'm still hopeless and believe most of it but hate the situation now and doubt it at the same time, lol...

[2themoon&back]

Well, my experience makes me look at this topic a little differently.

 

I really believe that people who are in A's aren't being honest with anyone, including themselves.

 

At first...

 

And quite possibly never...

 

But honesty does happen and I think I've seen it happen a couple of ways.

 

The first of which is that the MM falls in love with the OW and can't continue living the way he's living and keep lying over and over. He wants a change, a chance at happiness and true love no matter the cost.

 

The second type being the one who really has little care of what his OW might think and he goes to cruel lengths to be truthful. And for those who have the FWB label this might fit in with the OW's plan and she doesn't care, therefore happy OW. It's just sex. Those who are hoping for more, not really good for self esteem and does more damage than good.

 

Everyone else seems to fall in half-truth land. The MM.MW desperately wants the OP for whatever reason: love, ego-boost etc. To keep the OP when they are shortchanged so very much they say what they think that OP needs to hear. And I really think it's tailored to the particular OP. And honestly, my H was in this category at the beginning of our R (ok, not exactly he full out lied but he tailored it to me). And sometimes it seems like when I read stories, that the MM probably does love the OP but just doesn't have the balls to say they're an a**hat.

 

And for the question that I always inevitably get, yes I trust my H. Number 1: he gives me no reason not too and Number 2: If I didn't, I wouldn't be with him. I don't believe in being in a R with someone you don't trust.

 

As for why, I think that's the indefineable (un?). I trust him. And for me, that's all that matters.

 

GEL

 

 

 

i agree with you

 

i believe you are 100% correct here and have great insight!

You cannot improve the perfect answer.

[steelknife]

i love my xmm dearly but no i cant trust him. but i kept on loving him anyway..

he left me after d day with out so much as goodbye. in other words, dumped. and i am still hurting.

 

but the whole time in our 24 mos relationship. i never trusted him.i am always jealous. always suspicios. i wanted to but deep inside me i know he lies. and there is something he is hiding from me. im fine with the lies to cover up for the family and all. but the lies i hate are the ones involving a suspected oow. but i could never tell. if he was sneaky and canny enough to hide me from his BS for 24 mos with out her knowing about my existence and THEY LIVE TOGETHER. then he can damn well hide more from me.

 

there is these person i am very suspicious with and they work together. the suspected oow and i were acquaintances and once in a common party, she was there and i dunno waht i ate, when she forgot her cp in the toilet, i read it and there, in my xmm's number, the night before was a text saying he is sorry for biting her lips they tasted way too good. omygawd. but guess waht i did? i told him and nothing. he said it was nothing..i left it at that.

 

but from then on, i had always been suspicious. till the day we ended, i was always suspicious. the wife has no idea, she didnt read the text message, i did. up to now, i really cant prove if it was jsut one off thing or they were also having affairs aside from affair with me.

 

looking back, there were signs that i had a feeling they were also going out and sneaking the way he sneaks out with me. there are days i know he is free for me, but there are days he says he is with bs but i suspect that he is free to go out, and he goes out with the suspected oow.

 

so, no. there were lies and dishonestly. if he can do it to the bs, he can do it to me.

[KarmasTestDummy]

Maybe a large portion of, but doubtful all of it. There are either lies by omission to avoid hurting ow feelings, or lies by embellishment to mak bs look worse than she is, or just flat out lies to keep a going and not look like the bad guy. Either way they are always lying to bs and frequently very good at it. They may even ask u to lie for them by maintaining the secret or by denying to a in the event of d-day. I used to think exmm was some honesty martyr. That he was so honest with me and had no reason to lie as long as I accepted him no matter what, but I think there was many half truths and certainly some embellishments along the way. I think frequently they even lie to themselves to downplay their role in the destruction of the M. Bottom line is that it always takes two.

[steelknife]

Maybe a large portion of, but doubtful all of it. There are either lies by omission to avoid hurting ow feelings, or lies by embellishment to mak bs look worse than she is, or just flat out lies to keep a going and not look like the bad guy. Either way they are always lying to bs and frequently very good at it. They may even ask u to lie for them by maintaining the secret or by denying to a in the event of d-day. I used to think exmm was some honesty martyr. That he was so honest with me and had no reason to lie as long as I accepted him no matter what, but I think there was many half truths and certainly some embellishments along the way. I think frequently they even lie to themselves to downplay their role in the destruction of the M. Bottom line is that it always takes two.

 

i accepted him for what he was. and he knew that. all his past girls at watever, i knew most of the story. but still i knew he kept on lying to me.

and always, to save his a**.

 

the gut feelings says there is someone but i believe him and when he tells me, i looked in his eyes and he woudl say things like if there is someone else, i wouldnt come back to you after our fight. im a bit convince. but now that we separated. there were so many instances i knew he was lying. and i can never live in a relationship like that again.

[pureinheart]

i agree with you

 

i believe you are 100% correct here and have great insight!

You cannot improve the perfect answer.

 

You are a really cool person BTW...I second that!

 

This doesn't really not answer or answer the OP, it's just my general opinion on lies and truths.

 

Lying-vs-telling the truth...we all lie and tell the truth for many reasons, we all do both...most of the time we are unaware of the truth or the lie.

 

I think some are predisposed to lying, as to telling the truth. I had a boyfriend that you could tell he was lying because his lips were moving...he was also a very fake, controlling person. I used to call him 'plastic man'. I adopt little pet names for my ex's, hahaha guess what exDMs pet name is....

 

ExDM is a manipulator and a game player, although has the ability to be very real...I know that sounds weird but true...there has only been one other person on this earth that I could be my total self with...he did not lie to me that much.

Edited October 20, 2010 by pureinheart

[OWoman]

I'd like to know how OW feel about the concept of honesty and how it relates to their MM. In other words, do you trust your MM and why?

 

There certainly can be honesty IN an A, and in my case there certainly was.

 

Honesty AROUND an A (eg, with the BS) is a different matter, and in most cases there is some measure of dishonesty (by commission or omission).

[jennie-jennie]

There certainly can be honesty IN an A, and in my case there certainly was.

 

Honesty AROUND an A (eg, with the BS) is a different matter, and in most cases there is some measure of dishonesty (by commission or omission).

 

The above is the perfect answer to me.

 

I have never trusted a man like I trust my MM. And he has earned that trust.

 

I was emotionally damaged when we reconnected due to a prior abusive relationship and more importantly due to being bullied because of exposing a fraud situation at my working place. I had severe difficulties of trusting anybody.

 

My MM stood fast. He was always there for me though he told me it was like trying to walk in a minefield. You'd better stand completely still because you had no idea where to put your foot down next.

 

Slowly he rebuilt in me the faith in humanity. He showed me he was a safe haven. We shared our innermost secrets with each other. The intimacy we share is incredible.

 

Once in a while I consider that what he is saying might be more of a fantasy or a vision than what might actually happen. But this is not lies to me, this is daring to dream.

 

I trust my MM 100%. I have never caught him in a lie. And I am good at catching people in lies after having been in a relationship with a compulsive gambler for decades.

 

My MM lies to his wife out of necessity to keep his marriage, but he is honest with me. He states I know him better than his wife because he has dared to show more of himself to me. He has dared to be more honest with me than he ever was with his wife.

[greengoddess]

The above is the perfect answer to me.

 

I have never trusted a man like I trust my MM. And he has earned that trust.

 

I was emotionally damaged when we reconnected due to a prior abusive relationship and more importantly due to being bullied because of exposing a fraud situation at my working place. I had severe difficulties of trusting anybody.

 

My MM stood fast. He was always there for me though he told me it was like trying to walk in a minefield. You'd better stand completely still because you had no idea where to put your foot down next.

 

Slowly he rebuilt in me the faith in humanity. He showed me he was a safe haven. We shared our innermost secrets with each other. The intimacy we share is incredible.

 

Once in a while I consider that what he is saying might be more of a fantasy or a vision than what might actually happen. But this is not lies to me, this is daring to dream.

 

I trust my MM 100%. I have never caught him in a lie. And I am good at catching people in lies after having been in a relationship with a compulsive gambler for decades.

 

My MM lies to his wife out of necessity to keep his marriage, but he is honest with me. He states I know him better than his wife because he has dared to show more of himself to me. He has dared to be more honest with me than he ever was with his wife.

 

This scares me for you. Married man prey on women that are emotionally damaged. They come off as the perfect white knight swooping in on the emotionally injured woman. He hooled you and made you think he helped you. He is emotionally damaging you MORE by staying involved with you while being married. This is not healthy. He hooled you when you needed him. If you were not emotionally damaged you probably never would have gone for a married man. Now you think you need him. ugh. I hate these men.

[TigerCub]

For me, I don't think MM lied about a lot of stuff.

He didn't bad mouth baby momma (which I always liked about him), so he didn't have to make up all these stupid stories about how terrible she was.

 

I think MM was able to be himself more with me, because I didn't judge him, so he could tell me anything personal about HIMSELF.

 

I still didn't fully trust him, just because I over think things. It was always in the back of my mind, that if he could cheat without remorse, and lie to HER, then I'm sure there were things he lied to me about - I never had any real proof of that, but it was a feeling that was always there, I just never could bring myself to fully trust him.

[jennie-jennie]

For me, I don't think MM lied about a lot of stuff.

He didn't bad mouth baby momma (which I always liked about him), so he didn't have to make up all these stupid stories about how terrible she was.

 

This is another aspect of honesty in the EMR. My MM has never badmouthed his wife either. He always speaks well of her.

[Star_Bright]

Anyway on the topic of honesty in the affair. I never caught exMM in any outright lies to me and I'm suspicious by nature and good at detecting lies. I did detect a lot of BS and lies by omission. ExMM would say he's glad I know him well enough to call him on his BS and that it helped him. Honestly I think exMM needed me to help show him what he was supposed to do and why if he really wanted to get divorced and be with me. So sometimes he was a bit too honest with me in that he thought he could say anything and I would just be understanding and helpful. Well I got tired of that quick. I loved exMM and understand that he was in a bad place but honestly I want to be with a guy who knows what he's supposed to do and who doesn't need me to call him on his BS. I think exMM was just so used to BSing. It was like his coping mechanism and so many people let him get away with it, I guess especially his wife, and I just didn't want to be his BS-meter for life.

 

But I do think he was much more honest with me than he was with his wife. He was afraid to hurt his wife's feelings. I would have liked him to be a little more afraid to hurt my feelings but our relationship was so open, which I liked, that he felt free to tell me anything, and he liked when I challenged him or gave him my opinion or called his BS. So in that way it was very open but it was dishonest in that he claimed he wanted to be with me but I could tell by his (in)action that at least a part of him was unsure. I think with my exMM it was more a matter of him not knowing himself and being strong enough to decide what he wanted and less a matter of him being purposefully dishonest to me. My exMM is pretty broken and I felt obliged to fix him but now I don't, he has to do that on his own if at all.

[jennie-jennie]

This is another aspect of honesty in the EMR. My MM has never badmouthed his wife either. He always speaks well of her.

 

It seems I need to clarify this post.

 

Of course my MM sometimes tells me of the small things in daily life that annoys him with his wife. I don't see this as badmouthing his wife.

 

Of course I know what is lacking in my MM's marriage. It is not faults of hers that caused the affair, more the way they together shaped their marriage and then some areas where they never really were compatible.

 

What I was trying to convey was that my MM has never, which is often stated on LS by BSs to be the norm, made his wife look bad, told horror stories of how horrible she is and so on.

[Silly_Girl]

How is that honesty? I'm sure there are things he doesn't like about her or their relationship or why would he be with you? I don't understand your comment about not badmouthing the wife = honesty. So he is honestly saying "there's nothing wrong with her but I just like having both of you"? I would rather him be honest and say "I don't like this and this and this about her so I am with you."

 

The spouse can be essentially a good person, a generally nice person, but someone who does not gel with their own spouse. The spouses may have no chemistry or intimacy. Perhaps they disagree on very fundamental things, but do not dislike each other as individuals.

 

My ex-H drove me crazy!!! But was a really good person, with many fantastic qualities.

[20Seconds]

I am in a slightly unusual position in that I have known two MM - the first I married but have since divorced, the second, I have just finished with.

 

ExH was an open, honest person. He told me absolutely everything that was going on in his M from day 1. Probably too much, but I needed to know. Everything he said he would do, he did. He left his M because his W was having an affair (not the first). I went through his divorce with him. I never had any reason, throughout our relationship, to distrust him. Our M failed for other reasons.

 

MM #2 - totally different kettle of fish. Told me very, very little about his M. Told me things then went back on what he had said. Gave me very vague ideas about what he wanted, blew hot and cold all the time. Did various things that made me trust him less than I did at the beginning.

 

I have ended up walking away, and the biggest reason is because I simply can;t trust him.

 

I have realized that I can;t do a relationship, of any sort, without trust. I am glad I have acknowledged that to myself, and understand more about the things people do that make you feel you can either trust them, or you can;t.

 

If I can remember those things, I think I am in a better place going forward.

[Star_Bright]

It seems I need to clarify this post.

 

Of course my MM sometimes tells me of the small things in daily life that annoys him with his wife. I don't see this as badmouthing his wife.

 

Of course I know what is lacking in my MM's marriage. It is not faults of hers that caused the affair, more the way they together shaped their marriage and then some areas where they never really were compatible.

 

What I was trying to convey was that my MM has never, which is often stated on LS by BSs to be the norm, made his wife look bad, told horror stories of how horrible she is and so on.

 

Okay I get what you meant now (that he wasn't making her out to be some monster, which would be untruthful). Thanks for the explanation.

[Confused4Now]

Well, my experience makes me look at this topic a little differently.

 

I really believe that people who are in A's aren't being honest with anyone, including themselves.

 

At first...

 

And quite possibly never...

 

But honesty does happen and I think I've seen it happen a couple of ways.

 

The first of which is that the MM falls in love with the OW and can't continue living the way he's living and keep lying over and over. He wants a change, a chance at happiness and true love no matter the cost.

 

The second type being the one who really has little care of what his OW might think and he goes to cruel lengths to be truthful. And for those who have the FWB label this might fit in with the OW's plan and she doesn't care, therefore happy OW. It's just sex. Those who are hoping for more, not really good for self esteem and does more damage than good.

 

Everyone else seems to fall in half-truth land. The MM.MW desperately wants the OP for whatever reason: love, ego-boost etc. To keep the OP when they are shortchanged so very much they say what they think that OP needs to hear. And I really think it's tailored to the particular OP. And honestly, my H was in this category at the beginning of our R (ok, not exactly he full out lied but he tailored it to me). And sometimes it seems like when I read stories, that the MM probably does love the OP but just doesn't have the balls to say they're an a**hat.

 

And for the question that I always inevitably get, yes I trust my H. Number 1: he gives me no reason not too and Number 2: If I didn't, I wouldn't be with him. I don't believe in being in a R with someone you don't trust.

 

As for why, I think that's the indefineable (un?). I trust him. And for me, that's all that matters.

 

GEL

Yes in bold....I was the first one. I walked away from everything and so glad I did and even though I didn't get the prize I guess it wasn't a prize after all....I did find my happiness.....

[on a learning curve]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts and experiences. And, if I was smart enough to figure out how to use the multi-quote function, I would respond to individual posts.

 

For me, I know that MM would never intentionaly do anything to hurt me. So, in that respect, I do trust him. I suppose it is just the nature of the relationship that prevents me from fully accepting his word as "truth".

 

Lots of stuff to work through. Thanks again!

[goingstrong]

In my relationship with the MW when I was single, I lied to everyone including her even though it wasn't necessary. It is the nature of the beast of infidelity.

[Owl]

It seems I need to clarify this post.

 

Of course my MM sometimes tells me of the small things in daily life that annoys him with his wife. I don't see this as badmouthing his wife.

 

Of course I know what is lacking in my MM's marriage. It is not faults of hers that caused the affair, more the way they together shaped their marriage and then some areas where they never really were compatible.

 

What I was trying to convey was that my MM has never, which is often stated on LS by BSs to be the norm, made his wife look bad, told horror stories of how horrible she is and so on.

 

He doesn't need to make her look bad, or claim his marriage is horrible. You're willing to be with him regardless of that.

 

But...many times the WS has to tell this kind of lie, because other women often wouldn't consider starting an affair with what they feel is a "happily married man".

 

Or wouldn't consider a relationship with a man that has no intention (reason) to leave his wife. Many OW are looking at the MM as a potential husband in the future.

 

Ergo, he tells them lies to convince them that his marriage is on the rocks or very very unsatisfying/lonely/etc... A lot of times, they begin to believe their own stories too...it helps them mentally justify their actions once the affair has begun.

 

But none of this is required in your case...in fact, if he DID badmouth his wife, it would probably annoy/offend you and present an obstacle to the affair. He knows what he needs to tell you or not tell you in order to keep you engaged...in your case, he doesn't have to convince you that things are bad in order to keep you in the affair, so he doesn't say those things.