jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 IMO it is very easy to say you have no regrets if you never actually have to face the devastation of your BS when an affair is discovered. After all, the illusions your spouse and family have about you and your character are still firmly intact. No consequences = no regrets. Very cowardly and self indulgent to boot. But the BS will be devastated even if the affair is revealed voluntarily by the WS. Having caused this devastation is easy to regret. But how true is it that you regret having an extramarital relationship that ran over years? You certainly didn't regret it while you were having it. What you are regretting is the consequences it has now that it is out in the open.
aerogurl87 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I do believe you can love someone and cheat on them. For all the naysayers: Ask yourself: Have you loved someone and be disrespecful towards them? (them to encompass all genders) Have you ever loved someone and was mean to them at the same time? Been inconsiderate? Agitated? Aggressive? Angry? Spoiled? I once told a partner I cared deeply about that he was a controlling jac***s to his face and then dumped pickle relish all over him but that doesn't mean that I didn't love him during the time that I was being mean, inconsiderate and feisty. Some people are saying the WS can't have loved their BS because the love isn't "pure love": love to protect/shield. Love that isn't selfish. They forget: pure, (perfect) love is extremely difficult to be manufactured by imperfect humans. How can an imperfect being manifest perfect love towards another imperfection? It doesn't work. At some point, the love will become tainted with our sins and imperfections, but that doesn't mean that love didn't exist during the time. I have to agree with this whole statement. I cheated on my ex and then saved his life, was there for him when no one else was even when he was cheating on me and lying to me over and over. Love is perfect, but humans are not and we all do things we aren't proud of. Some just worse than others, but it is possible to hurt the ones you love when your love for yourself becomes more powerful than the love you have for another.
bentnotbroken Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I do believe you can love someone and cheat on them. For all the naysayers: Ask yourself: Have you loved someone and be disrespecful towards them? (them to encompass all genders) Have you ever loved someone and was mean to them at the same time? Been inconsiderate? Agitated? Aggressive? Angry? Spoiled? I once told a partner I cared deeply about that he was a controlling jac***s to his face and then dumped pickle relish all over him but that doesn't mean that I didn't love him during the time that I was being mean, inconsiderate and feisty. Some people are saying the WS can't have loved their BS because the love isn't "pure love": love to protect/shield. Love that isn't selfish. They forget: pure, (perfect) love is extremely difficult to be manufactured by imperfect humans. How can an imperfect being manifest perfect love towards another imperfection? It doesn't work. At some point, the love will become tainted with our sins and imperfections, but that doesn't mean that love didn't exist during the time. I can ask myself all those things and can say yes to most. Still I stood before him and God and promised him fidelity. My life, my love, my body, my emotions belonged only to him. I wouldn't share those things with anyone but him, in good times and bad. All those things mentioned above I shared with him openly and honestly at the time. I didn't rant and rave to a third party about him. My issues were with him and I loved him enough to keep those issues between me and him. In my happiness and sadness those things were shared with him because I loved him. So he shared his body and emotions with someone else because he loved me...bullcrap. There is no love for a spouse that allows you to share intimate anything with another. I have never believed love is pure. But I do believe it is respectful and honest. Neither are demonstrated during an affair.
PhoenixRise Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 But the BS will be devastated even if the affair is revealed voluntarily by the WS. Having caused this devastation is easy to regret. But how true is it that you regret having an extramarital relationship that ran over years? You certainly didn't regret it while you were having it. What you are regretting is the consequences it has now that it is out in the open. Of course the BS will be devastated regardless of if the affair is confessed or discovered. It is possible that a WS could see the devastation they caused to the BS and not regret the affair. I say again that if WS can look at the pain his/her ACTIONS caused and not regret having taken those actions they shouldn't even try to stay married. However, it is also possible that a person when actually faced with the complete devastation of the spouse (especially in cases where the BS is not abusive, and loves the WS) and the ensuing turmoil of the family all because of actions by the WS the WS could in fact regret having taken those actions. AND there are many situations where a person looks back with the benefit of hindsight and feels regret over their actions, even when they didn't feel that way initially. It is easy to say there are no regrets when there has been no reality.
pureinheart Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Wow, I just read through this thread and observed a lot of gloom and doom. It was just a trip seeing the hatred either for the self, the OW or WS or all of the above...what a bumber to hold on to such negativity... At least the BS is constantly validated, that is at least one plus. Come on guys/gals it's time to heal:) and hopefully let it go and have a happy whatever....
wheelwright Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 (edited) WW, I will bite. You lost all faith in your relationship pre-affair. But did you communicate this to your spouse? Because to not do so is disrespectful. Agree with bolded Spark. Now I have hindsight. I did bring up my doubts about the M, but H chose to sweep them under the carpet rather than discuss. I told him I was not happy in the M. I didn't start to be more outspoken with him re specifics until after I had developed feelings for xMOM. I come from a broken home, and tbh, the thought of splitting my family made me quake. I agree all this was cowardly. I didn't understand how I felt, and H showed a lot of disrespect to me over the years. I am sad about all the hurt I have caused him, and I care about him. But I do feel he has some responsibilty. It was he who first had feelings for another and didn't tell me although I confronted him. It is he who first lied (about this and his porn habits). An atmosphere of mistrust and secrecy was begun in the M - by him. It is he who went out 4-6 nights a week while I was trying to maintain a stable family home. And then I flipped. And fell in love too. I am not especially judgemental. Cause and effect and blame are in the eye of the beholder. But in the case of my M, while I agree I made bad choices, I do not think H is without responsibility. Edited October 21, 2010 by wheelwright
wheelwright Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Sorry, not clear what it is you think BS need to recognize and why. I would be grateful for an explanation. Simply put, what I meant is that losing respect for a M comes before the behaviour that disrespects the BS. At least in my case this was so. And this is as much the responsibilty of the BS as the WS. I am not condoning As for this reason - experience has shown me it is not a solution. But it irks me sometimes when BSs are so focused on the disrespect they were shown, and not so focused on how the M got so lost. EMAs to my mind are just one way of expressing this loss of faith in the M. This is what they are made of. I would agree that they are a selfish and sometimes cowardly way. The disrespect shown to the BS is a kind of unfortunate side-effect. It isn't part of the motive/reason for the behaviour, and so doesn't help us understand it. The WS chooses the medicine they think best, and to hell with the side-effects (which rebound just as nastily on they themselves as the BSs). Both MPs suffer after DDay. Both MPs got their M in the state it was in. I do see that this disrespect is hurtful, but I don't think sitting around questioning how all us WSs could be such selfish, disrespectful, odious creatures from hell is getting us any nearer understanding infidelity.
Spark1111 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Of course the BS will be devastated regardless of if the affair is confessed or discovered. It is possible that a WS could see the devastation they caused to the BS and not regret the affair. I say again that if WS can look at the pain his/her ACTIONS caused and not regret having taken those actions they shouldn't even try to stay married. However, it is also possible that a person when actually faced with the complete devastation of the spouse (especially in cases where the BS is not abusive, and loves the WS) and the ensuing turmoil of the family all because of actions by the WS the WS could in fact regret having taken those actions. AND there are many situations where a person looks back with the benefit of hindsight and feels regret over their actions, even when they didn't feel that way initially. It is easy to say there are no regrets when there has been no reality. So true! Now reality hits. And I still loved him enough to tell him to go be with her. I was hurt he developed feelings for another; I was devastated he kept it secret from me, and lied to me and my children to act on those feelings. That is where I lost respect, which I have since regained. His kids too. He has not regained respect for himself and those actions. And look, this was a workplace affair that was not too far a distance from our home and community. It affected every aspect of our lives; children, friends, family, siblings, his workplace! This is now a man who looks back with self-loathing that this will always and forever be a part of his legacy. Split-self? Okay, I'll bite. He had to be talked down off a ledge. How is that for remorse?
Spark1111 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Agree with bolded Spark. Now I have hindsight. I did bring up my doubts about the M, but H chose to sweep them under the carpet rather than discuss. I told him I was not happy in the M. I didn't start to be more outspoken with him re specifics until after I had developed feelings for xMOM. I come from a broken home, and tbh, the thought of splitting my family made me quake. I agree all this was cowardly. I didn't understand how I felt, and H showed a lot of disrespect to me over the years. I am sad about all the hurt I have caused him, and I care about him. But I do feel he has some responsibilty. It was he who first had feelings for another and didn't tell me although I confronted him. It is he who first lied (about this and his porn habits). An atmosphere of mistrust and secrecy was begun in the M - by him. It is he who went out 4-6 nights a week while I was trying to maintain a stable family home. And then I flipped. And fell in love too. I am not especially judgemental. Cause and effect and blame are in the eye of the beholder. But in the case of my M, while I agree I made bad choices, I do not think H is without responsibility. This is very honest, WW. Thank you. Both are responsible for the state of the marriage. Both are responsible for emotionally connecting to one another., for making each other a priority.
Spark1111 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I am not sure, but I believe you didn't understand that the expression "a better man" that I used was borrowed from Spark's post, where she stated her husband was a better man post the affair. It had nothing to do with your post or your husband. I was just trying to explain what I meant with the red flags. Jennie, my husband is a better man because he feels he is and says so. He lives his life with honesty and integrity, and that is important to him. He says he has gained confidence and clarity and feels anchored and once again accepted and loved in a family he adores. He has made ammends to many, many people, not just me, because they, too, were hurt by the fallout of our DDAY. Like Seren said, it blew holes in the hearts of many, many people. He no longer has to apologize to me or his children. But he does and has to others who distanced themselves from us because of this mess. He is working so hard to regain all that he almost lost. We admire him for his efforts and once again feel loved, cherished and appreciated by him. It's all good.
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Wow, I just read through this thread and observed a lot of gloom and doom. It was just a trip seeing the hatred either for the self, the OW or WS or all of the above...what a bumber to hold on to such negativity... At least the BS is constantly validated, that is at least one plus. Come on guys/gals it's time to heal:) and hopefully let it go and have a happy whatever.... My point exactly.
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 It is easy to say there are no regrets when there has been no reality. There has been reality many times in my life. I have been the BS. I did not desire a remorseful and apologetic WS, especially not in the long run. I prefered a WS who honestly admitted to have loved someone else, but now realized it was with me he wanted to stay.
anne1707 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 There has been reality many times in my life. I have been the BS. I did not desire a remorseful and apologetic WS, especially not in the long run. I prefered a WS who honestly admitted to have loved someone else, but now realized it was with me he wanted to stay. Do you think you can only be remorseful if you did not love the OW/OM?
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Jennie, my husband is a better man because he feels he is and says so. He lives his life with honesty and integrity, and that is important to him. He says he has gained confidence and clarity and feels anchored and once again accepted and loved in a family he adores. He has made ammends to many, many people, not just me, because they, too, were hurt by the fallout of our DDAY. Like Seren said, it blew holes in the hearts of many, many people. He no longer has to apologize to me or his children. But he does and has to others who distanced themselves from us because of this mess. He is working so hard to regain all that he almost lost. We admire him for his efforts and once again feel loved, cherished and appreciated by him. It's all good. I am happy to hear that. Perhaps I read more into your words than reality actually is.
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Do you think you can only be remorseful if you did not love the OW/OM? Remorseful for hurting someone is natural. Remorseful in hindsight for having a long term affair seems pretty convenient to me. I guess the WS in that case did not own his actions while in the affair, and therefore can not own them afterwards either. You know, you can blame the fog and such.
anne1707 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I know some would prefer to belittle the feelings a WS had for the OW/OM (or belittle the WS) if they choose to reconcile with the BS. But believe it or not, the BS often has a lot more going for them than the OW/OM. There is nothing "convenient" about the aftermath of an affair. And remorse actually means you do own your action
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I know some would prefer to belittle the feelings a WS had for the OW/OM (or belittle the WS) if they choose to reconcile with the BS. But believe it or not, the BS often has a lot more going for them than the OW/OM. There is nothing "convenient" about the aftermath of an affair. And remorse actually means you do own your action Not in my world. Remorse is paying for your action, regretting you did it because you now have to pay. It is a no-brainer the BS will be hurt by an affair. If that didn't matter during the affair...
anne1707 Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Not in my world. Remorse is paying for your action, regretting you did it because you now have to pay. It is a no-brainer the BS will be hurt by an affair. If that didn't matter during the affair... I guess it comes down to "moral relativism" again. Some of us have the ability to show remorse because they care about others, others don't
carhill Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Can someone feel remorse without having been 'caught' or having to 'pay'? Can remorse be a impetus to proactive disclosure? Do feelings result from actions or impel actions or both? Many potentials. Can I love someone and still cheat? Technically, I think one could answer 'yes'; I 'loved' my ex enough to perhaps pull her from in front of speeding car but nowhere near how or with the depth which caused me to propose marriage to her. So, 'technically', if I were to examine the dynamic in minute detail, I could reverse my prior opinion and say there was love. Of course, I could have denied the affair too. Many potentials
greengoddess Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I guess it comes down to "moral relativism" again. Some of us have the ability to show remorse because they care about others, others don't Omg exactly. Wow that was an eye opener to believe someone would not have remorse when they see the hurt of another. Wow. What is it called when a person has no empathy? Sociopath, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, aspergers.
wheelwright Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Remorseful for hurting someone is natural. Remorseful in hindsight for having a long term affair seems pretty convenient to me. I guess the WS in that case did not own his actions while in the affair, and therefore can not own them afterwards either. You know, you can blame the fog and such. At the beginning after DDay, I felt I was supposed to feel remorseful, and found this conflicted hugely with the love I had felt for MM. This was its own head****. I never believed in the 'convenient' fog. I did feel terrible about H's hurt. I had to look up remorse in the OED: 'deep regret for a wrong committed' I think it is very hard to regret feelings of love. It is easy to regret the fact that this had a terrible impact on another whom you care about. I think anne's question was a good one. Perhaps during the A, we prioritise the love feelings over the hurtful consequences, and once confronted with the hurt (whether through shakier M or DDay) this shapes our priorities, so it becomes possible to feel a partial remorse? Like 'I did love you, but I can see now my M is far more important to me'. Is it possible to say you feel remorse if what you have done is simply re-arrange your priorities? And at the same time feel a whole lot of responsibilty and compassion for your BS's pain?
wheelwright Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I guess it comes down to "moral relativism" again. Some of us have the ability to show remorse because they care about others, others don't Compassion and responsibility do not necessarily require remorse, but they are part of caring about our actions and how others feel. Philosophically, remorse and the containing idea of regret seem to me rather difficult. 'I am sorry I hurt you' is fine and of course natural in a healthy mindset. 'I wish I hadn't done that' (i.e. regret) begs a whole lot of questions about selfhood, identity, being in fact unable to change our past actions. It's almost nonsensical. I think I'm leaning towards being sorry about the present hurt, feeling resposible for causing it, and making a mental resolution not to do it again.
xxoo Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 I had to look up remorse in the OED: 'deep regret for a wrong committed' I think it is very hard to regret feelings of love. It is easy to regret the fact that this had a terrible impact on another whom you care about. Feeling love is not committing a wrong. Breaking a promise, betraying, deceiving, gaslighting--those are committing wrongs. I imagine it is possible to feel that the love and the relationship with the AP was a positive thing in the scope of your life, but deeply regret the way the relationship was pursued--and not just because of the consequences, but because they truly wish they had gone about things a different way.
wheelwright Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Feeling love is not committing a wrong. Breaking a promise, betraying, deceiving, gaslighting--those are committing wrongs. I imagine it is possible to feel that the love and the relationship with the AP was a positive thing in the scope of your life, but deeply regret the way the relationship was pursued--and not just because of the consequences, but because they truly wish they had gone about things a different way. I really like the way you put this. In some ways this is true, because I know I wouldn't behave like this again. I can also pinpoint where I made choices I now feel were misguided.
jennie-jennie Posted October 21, 2010 Posted October 21, 2010 Can someone feel remorse without having been 'caught' or having to 'pay'? Can remorse be a impetus to proactive disclosure? Do feelings result from actions or impel actions or both? Many potentials. I like these questions. They are something to ponder on. I was once the WS. I regretted it pretty immediately and still do. My motives for being with that OM were not pure.
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