Can you love and still cheat?

[JustJoe]

I understand what your argument. i think its more that I lost sight of how much I loved my H. I was in such a state of confusion and denial (i.e. fog) that for too long I could not see what really mattered. The affair could have gone somewhere if I wanted (the ex-OM wanted to me to leave my H and marry him) but I fought against that because ultimately my H was who I loved and wanted most. When I could see how much I backed away from the ex-OM at stages during the affair, I could see that I loved my H far more than the ex-OM. Just wish I had come to my full senses far sooner.

 

 

 

No it doesn't. That's just an incorrect assumption based on your opinion of me and my choice to stay in my marriage. I wouldn't make assumptions about you how feel JJ and you would also quite rightly object if I did.

I respect your opinion, Anne, but as you mentioned, because of the "fog",you were not able During the affair, to really love your H as you should, right? When you realized that the affair was not what you wanted, the "fog", lifted and it was then that you realized how much you and your H had to lose if it (affair) continued. So I maintain that during an affair there is at least a suspension of love for the SO, or any good person wouldn't have affairs.

[anne1707]

No, not a suspension of love. Far from it. But I do agree that I did not love my H as I should in my actions. I did not show him and our relationship the respect it deserved.

[Owl]

because even if someone forgives a cheater, a scar still remains. It may be that they don't focus on the cheating and were able to push it to the back of their mind....but it is still there, and there will be triggers here and there. She just may choose to keep it to herself and not let it show.

 

I could have forgiven my x-wife for the sake of the kids and I'm sure I'd be able to function on a day to day basis and wouldn't think about the infidelity after a certain period of time and all would seem a-ok in the marriage.

 

But it would always be in the back of my mind, and its something I didn't want.

its still in the back of my mind somewhere....difference now is, because I got rid of her, the thoughts don't hurt because she is no longer significant to me.

 

just in my opinion, people shouldn't settle for a cheater

 

 

 

 

i've said this time and time again....I think alot of people can "recover", but at what cost? I could have recovered, but I'd have settled for a life less lived in my opinion.

 

and i've used this analogy over and over.

 

I can total a car....yes, its fixable, yes it can "appear" to look like new once fixed....but there are still imperfections and its damn expensive.

 

in the end......best just to get a new car.

 

Dex, a question for you.

 

And I'd like to make sure you understand this isn't any kind of insult, my friend. Just an observation, a comparison of where the two of us are at.

 

I understand what you say about a "scar". I tend to agree...having been through the pain of having a cheating spouse...it changes you, changes your perception of things.

 

But (and this is the part I don't mean any offense with)...it seems to me that your scar bothers you more than mine does me?

 

You seem angrier, far less forgiving, still more connected to your pain than I am.

 

I absolutely don't feel that I'd be sitting in a better state at this point if we'd divorced rather than reconciled. I'm curious why it SEEMS that you're still in more pain than I am, given your thoughts on this?

 

Again, no offense intended friend.

[Star_Bright]

when you love someone, you won't do anything to hurt them...they are the only person you want to be with.

 

when you f### someone else, it shows that the above isn't true. and I don't think anyone can say with a straight face to the person the "claim" to "love"...."I love you honey, but I just like boning other people....hope ya understand babe"

 

I agree with this. A spouse cannot truly love, as in real love, their spouse while cheating because real love = a desire to do whatever is in the best interest of the person you love, to make them happy instead of hurting them, and cheating goes totally against that. I do not believe one spouse really loved the other while cheating. I just don't. Maybe they had feelings for them but they were selfish feelings (like, don't find out, don't leave me even though I'm cheating, I need you/ this lifestyle, I like having both of you, I'm afraid of change, whatever), but that's not real love. Real love is not selfish but unselfish.

 

Yes I'm an exOW so what do I know?, ha ha. Not much, but that is just what I think on this subject. If someone cheated on me and then claimed to love me while they were cheating I would be offended. I would say, well that isn't what I call love and if you think it's love then I don't want to be with you. (I can't imagine wanting to be with someone who cheated on me anyway, but, I know that happens and I can't really say what I would do since it hasn't happen to me. So IF I wanted to try to forgive and stay together then they'd better NOT tell me they loved me while they were cheating on me! What kind of "love" is that? Barf! I would send them packing.)

[YellowShark]

Thanks for your input FructoseGrande. You said a lot of interesting things that I shall definitely process.

 

To answer some of your questions;

 

I did love her and she repeatedly claimed she loved me, nearly every day. So I believed her words.

 

I do believe she needs therapy because she did exhibit self-destructive tendencies that weren't apparent to me or obvious until year 3, and continued growing through years 4, 5, and 6.

 

I do follow your logic that she has distinct characteristics of sociopathology, but when I was with her I was obviously blinded by love. And she WAS definitely very charming, thats what attracted me to her, her grace, intelligence, and charm.

 

In therapy I found out that as a child her father left her mother for a year for another woman - (then reconciled.) I think that is the basis for her proclivity to be comfortable to be "the OW." But that was never something that came up until therapy together. Since I am not a therapist I couldn't connect the dots without the dots.

 

You're correct about "the little voice." Her gaslighting tricked me into thinking my "little voice" was pushing her away. Now that I know what gaslighting is, (Thanks to Loveshack!), I shall recognize it in the future. Instead she should have done everything in her power to quell my "little voice" rather than use it as a weapon against me.

 

All in all I have learned a great deal about relationships, gaslighting, narcissism, and waving red-flags from all this. Sure I wish I had known these things sooner but I didn't. That is my silver-lining in this dark cloud. I recommend everyone in a relationship read up on gaslighting, narcissism, codependancy, etc, to give them the tools to see "a natural disaster." I shall definitely see "natural disasters" coming now!

 

Yup, I am still broken-hearted but I know that shall pass, it's only been a few months. We're done, I'm gone forever, it's 100% over. Knowledge is the key and I am definitely 100% wiser now than I was before.

[Star_Bright]

 

Where I'm at on the subject is based largely on something my ex said once while 'opening up'. Reacting to a (perceived) act of kindness I heard her say "I love that you love me". What's the opposite of romantic... pathetic? The cheater may 'love' certain things about their spouse; their caring, faithfulness, etc. But love? Real man and woman love? That's not in the equation. Like love, cheating is a decision and that's hard to swallow.

 

 

Yes, that, that's what I was trying to say. The "feelings" that a cheating spouse has for the other spouse seem to be more along the lines of "please keep loving me even though I'm not really loving you" or "I love that you love me," as you said. They are SELFISH feelings and that is not real love.

 

On a side note Steadfast your post really touched me and I am so sorry that your wife did that to you. I hope you will be okay and it seems to me like you are a good, introspective guy who will find real love elsewhere. Your wife didn't deserve you!

[Star_Bright]

You can love someone and cheat on them. It's just that your love for yourself outweighs your love for the other person. I know that was the case with my ex when I cheated on him. I felt bad about it, but I was a narcissistic b*tch who could've cared less about him at the end of the day. It was all about me, and no that's not something I'm proud of, which is why I changed my behaviour and my thinking.

 

So you didn't really love him, because that's not really love. Love = respect, honesty, putting the other person first, all of the things you just admitted you didn't have for him when you were cheating on him. So you did NOT love him. I'm confused as to what you mean.

[thomasb]

Star Bright, And as the MM in my situation I'm telling you that I loved my wife. The one I did not love was the OW. But I can understand that as the OW you would never wish to believe that. But it is my truth.

[Dexter Morgan]

But (and this is the part I don't mean any offense with)...it seems to me that your scar bothers you more than mine does me?

 

no, just means I'm the type of person that doesn't want to be with someone who gave me that scar.

 

 

You seem angrier, far less forgiving, still more connected to your pain than I am.

 

no pain at all. and even if the past enters my head, it doesn't hurt because she is no longer significant.

 

still doesn't mean that I won't call it like I see it and feel disgusted at people who are doing it to others.

 

 

I absolutely don't feel that I'd be sitting in a better state at this point if we'd divorced rather than reconciled. I'm curious why it SEEMS that you're still in more pain than I am, given your thoughts on this?

 

again, no pain at all.....but I can still be disgusted by the actions of others.

 

Like you said, it changes a person, some differently than others.

 

It simply changed me into the person that won't put up with it and won't be played for a fool again.

[Dexter Morgan]

If someone cheated on me and then claimed to love me while they were cheating I would be offended.

 

the old me would be offended as well.

 

the new me would also be offended, but rather than feeling sorry for myself, I'd be laughing at them while motioning to walk through the door I just opened.

[BB07]

Star Bright, And as the MM in my situation I'm telling you that I loved my wife. The one I did not love was the OW. But I can understand that as the OW you would never wish to believe that. But it is my truth.

 

OK Thomas I gotta call you out on that..........maybe you did love your wife, but you didn't love her purely, truly and in the real sense of the word now did you? True, pure love requires not hurting the person you profess to love. IMO if you had loved her in the way you should have.....you wouldn't have cheated on her. I will concede that it sounds like you've found that good place again with your wife and I'm happy for you.

 

As for your little dig at the OW and at SB, I have a bone to pick with you about that. Thomas I get why you have disdain for OW's and yours turned into somewhat of a bunny boiler but all OW are not in the same category as you've put yours in. The reason I'm pointing this out to you is your disdain for yours leaks out when ever you make a comment about one, yours or otherwise. Maybe I've got it all wrong, but I think you blame the OW in your case more than you blame yourself........do you?

[thomasb]

No I don't blame OW more for the affair at all. And I do hold a lot of disdain and disgust for her behavior to my wife and her children after I ended the affair. It was unconscionable.

And yes I did love my wife purely and absolutely before, during and after. The first time was a drunken mistake. And for the few weeks after that I had in my mind that it was already to late and my wife would leave me no matter what. She did for a few weeks after. But, I never wanted to be with OW rather than my wife. After a few weeks I could no longer live with the ill feeling it was causing me. I actually developed ulcers.

[Owl]

Thanks for the explanation Dex, and sorry to everyone for the short TJ.

[jennie-jennie]

What would the red flags be for? That someone still feels remorseful or apologetic for having an A, hurting their family, after 2.5.years?

My H hates what he has done, hates himself sometimes, for being the man he was during the A - personally I wish he wouldn't and didn't, but he does. I support him with these feelings, but his feeling of self loathing about what he did remains.

 

Perhaps I read your comment wrong, or perhaps I am missing something.

 

"A better man" learns from his mistakes and makes sure not to repeat them, but he doesn't go around being remorseful and apologetic for years. Yuch.

[jthorne]

I'm not sure if it's a continued dig, or something lost in translation, but I'll lend my perspective. Should the BS in my situation learn about the past and contact me today, tomorrow, or 15 years from now, I will respond to her with remorse and apology. Am I past it now and will be 15 years from now? Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that I am sorry for what I did.

 

If I accidentally ran over a person's dog, I would be sorry it happened. If I took the dog to the vet and it survived without incident, that doesn't mean I shouldn't still be sorry it happened in the first place.

[donnamaybe]

"A better man" learns from his mistakes and makes sure not to repeat them

Oh, really.

[donnamaybe]

I'm not sure if it's a continued dig, or something lost in translation, but I'll lend my perspective. Should the BS in my situation learn about the past and contact me today, tomorrow, or 15 years from now, I will respond to her with remorse and apology. Am I past it now and will be 15 years from now? Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that I am sorry for what I did.

 

If I accidentally ran over a person's dog, I would be sorry it happened. If I took the dog to the vet and it survived without incident, that doesn't mean I shouldn't still be sorry it happened in the first place.

JT, it's like certain religions where you can go and confess (or "apologize") for what yo've done and *voila* you are absolved. Now you're free to go do it again, as long as you are freshly "sorry" once more.

[anne1707]

"A better man" learns from his mistakes and makes sure not to repeat them, but he doesn't go around being remorseful and apologetic for years. Yuch.

 

Well thankfully some of us have the ability to recognise the harm we have done to others and regret that. As I posted, I feell remorse at what I did (and always will). I am perfectly happy with having that feeling - I would be a "lesser woman" for not feeling that way. Doesn't mean I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness - it just means I accept responsibility for my actions and their consequences.

[jthorne]

JT, it's like certain religions where you can go and confess (or "apologize") for what yo've done and *voila* you are absolved. Now you're free to go do it again, as long as you are freshly "sorry" once more.

Oh, okay, thanks. I guess I wasn't in Sunday School that day.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I took it to be like there is a time limit on apologies. Like I can be sorry until x happens, and then I don't have to be sorry any more. Or maybe like today I can say "I'm sorry", but tomorrow, I can say "nope, I am NOT sorry" for something I was sorry for yesterday.

[donnamaybe]

Oh, okay, thanks. I guess I wasn't in Sunday School that day.

 

Thanks for clarifying. I took it to be like there is a time limit on apologies. Like I can be sorry until x happens, and then I don't have to be sorry any more. Or maybe like today I can say "I'm sorry", but tomorrow, I can say "nope, I am NOT sorry" for something I was sorry for yesterday.

You have to just try and put yourself in a certain mindset to understand. I know it's foreign to you, but if you try hard enough...

[thomasb]

Jthonne, that is the way I took it also.

[jthorne]

You have to just try and put yourself in a certain mindset to understand. I know it's foreign to you, but if you try hard enough...

It would take far more effort than I am willing to expend. Being dishonest must be exhausting.

[Owl]

"A better man" learns from his mistakes and makes sure not to repeat them, but he doesn't go around being remorseful and apologetic for years. Yuch.

 

Why the "dig" here?

 

You're intentionally making it sound like there's some kind of expectation that the WS has spent several years groveling and begging for forgiveness.

 

Again, the whole "veiled insult" towards BS's who reconcile with their WS...why???

[jennie-jennie]

JT, it's like certain religions where you can go and confess (or "apologize") for what yo've done and *voila* you are absolved. Now you're free to go do it again, as long as you are freshly "sorry" once more.

 

You got it wrong. You are only absolved if you are determined to change your ways and not do it again.

[bentnotbroken]

Oh, really.

 

 

I know right. That must mean that some "men" and I use the term loosely don't learn a damn thing but how not to let the cake icing show on his upper lip.