Can you love and still cheat?

[Silly_Girl]

Silly Girl, Perhaps you missed that it has been 12 years since my affair. My marriage is definitely recovered. The affair is just a far back blip now.

 

I didn't miss that it has been twelve years. Hence my comments in another thread that you were asking for tips on how to show gratitude to your wife for deigning to take you back after your misdemeanour. I would have expected (not having been in that position myself) 12 years to be sufficient time for healing, and was surprised you were posting in that vein. I felt concern for you (both).

[Silly_Girl]

when you love someone, you won't do anything to hurt them...they are the only person you want to be with.

 

when you f### someone else, it shows that the above isn't true. and I don't think anyone can say with a straight face to the person the "claim" to "love"...."I love you honey, but I just like boning other people....hope ya understand babe"

 

Yes. I like this.

[thomasb]

Thomasb....fBS here....and this is such a hard concept to wrap my head around....

 

My FWS also claims he never stopped loving me, yet nothing has hurt me more than his affair.

 

And during his affair....he treated us like crap. I, and the children, chalked it up to job stress....but I think that hurt more than the affair itself.

 

Did you do this also?

 

Or were you one of the rare ones where the affair enhanced the marital relationship?

 

I realized intuitively that his affair had nothing to do with me or us. We were the same supportive and loving family we had always been. My son, 18 at the time of DDAY, reiterated that point to me and I took comfort in that.

 

But my emotions?????????

 

A nightmare rollercoaster that has taken the better part of 2.5 years to overcome.

 

I am sorry he was selfish and felt sorry for himself and felt entitled to it in his immaturity. And he is a better man today. Remorseful, caring, apologetic.

 

But I almost did not make it, the pain was that great.

 

So I do not think love of any kind is suppose to hurt like this did.

 

And I still wrestle with the resentment I sometimes feel that I even had to go through this at all. I and my children.

 

We did not deserve this.

 

 

No Spark, you most cetainly did not deserve this and neither did my wife or any other BS. No one ever deserves to be lied too and deceived.

I don't think I was emotionally abusive such as that during. But I do remember being angry alot. I hope I didn't ever direct it unfairly at my family... but I probably did. I believe most of my anger was inward though. I guess I'll have to ask my wife. I feel so badly for the pain I see in your post. All I can tell you is that time dulls the pain on both sides, and you can regain your trust in your husband. I was ecstatic when I realized my wife no longer felt the need to check and make sure I was being honest and trustworthy in my actions.

[Steadfast]

Interesting discussion, but I'm no closer to a conclusion. I'll answer the question with another; what is truth and what is personal experience?

 

I've grown an intolerance towards the 'all people are different' line. While it's true that everyone has unique traits, personalities, talents and strengths, the human condition remains. Our behavior, in relation to how we react to fear, loneliness, stress and conflict might differ person to person, but we can all relate to those through personal experience. Yet when it comes to love? That's different. We feel, judge, react and consider it's effects differently. Personally, I think that's a cop out. Lies are lies. No amount of sugarcoating can justify betrayal and selfishness.

 

My wife cheated, cheated some more and when I came to the conclusion she wasn't going to change, I filed. She didn't like that, but has never really come out and said why. I was supposed to wait around? Allow her to get through whatever she was going through? Now, she misses me.

 

Where I'm at on the subject is based largely on something my ex said once while 'opening up'. Reacting to a (perceived) act of kindness I heard her say "I love that you love me". What's the opposite of romantic... pathetic? The cheater may 'love' certain things about their spouse; their caring, faithfulness, etc. But love? Real man and woman love? That's not in the equation. Like love, cheating is a decision and that's hard to swallow.

 

All that said, I'd still be married if my ex had wanted me. But she didn't. That's my reality. I've come to the realization that I might have bigger problems now if she had, but that's only conjecture. I only know this for certain; if they loved you...really loved you, they'd be there.

[on a learning curve]

Interesting discussion, but I'm no closer to a conclusion. I'll answer the question with another; what is truth and what is personal experience?

 

I've grown an intolerance towards the 'all people are different' line. While it's true that everyone has unique traits, personalities, talents and strengths, the human condition remains. Our behavior, in relation to how we react to fear, loneliness, stress and conflict might differ person to person, but we can all relate to those through personal experience. Yet when it comes to love? That's different. We feel, judge, react and consider it's effects differently. Personally, I think that's a cop out. Lies are lies. No amount of sugarcoating can justify betrayal and selfishness.

 

My wife cheated, cheated some more and when I came to the conclusion she wasn't going to change, I filed. She didn't like that, but has never really come out and said why. I was supposed to wait around? Allow her to get through whatever she was going through? Now, she misses me.

 

Where I'm at on the subject is based largely on something my ex said once while 'opening up'. Reacting to a (perceived) act of kindness I heard her say "I love that you love me". What's the opposite of romantic... pathetic? The cheater may 'love' certain things about their spouse; their caring, faithfulness, etc. But love? Real man and woman love? That's not in the equation. Like love, cheating is a decision and that's hard to swallow.

 

All that said, I'd still be married if my ex had wanted me. But she didn't. That's my reality. I've come to the realization that I might have bigger problems now if she had, but that's only conjecture. I only know this for certain; if they loved you...really loved you, they'd be there.

 

I think this is a fascinating post. I'd like to hear you elaborate on the bolded if you feel up to it.

[JustJoe]

Can you love your SO and still cheat on them? Of course you can, but it is the "love", for a well broken-in pair of shoes , your favorite comfort food, or familiar music, not the love of a man for a woman. And it is totally without respect.

[aerogurl87]

I've heard several people on this site state that you cannot love your spouse and cheat on them.

I most emphatically state every time that you can. I did. The people who believe that, IMHO are forming their beliefs on the basis that something must be wrong with the marriage, or the BS. When in fact the deficiency is within the cheater. It is a selfish thing. thoughts?

 

You can love someone and cheat on them. It's just that your love for yourself outweighs your love for the other person. I know that was the case with my ex when I cheated on him. I felt bad about it, but I was a narcissistic b*tch who could've cared less about him at the end of the day. It was all about me, and no that's not something I'm proud of, which is why I changed my behaviour and my thinking.

[blizzard]

I have to join the minority... I don't believe that you can cheat and love your spouse. You may love them in a way that you "care" for them deeply but it is not the love of all love... which is commitment. Love is commitment. A selfless act. Love is saying forever...and sticking to it because you are NOT selfish.

 

When a WS can go to OW/OM and tell them that he loves them...while being sexually intimate... you can't tell me that WS still loves their spouse.

When WS spends every piece of free time with OW/OM when they could be with their own spouse...this is not love.

When WS badmouths their spouse (and they do) and lies about their alcoholism, control habits etc...that is not love.

When WS spouse makes promises to OW/OM about spending forever with them...WS cannot still their spouse.

 

I could go on with examples.

 

And I am not too sure about the "beauty" of love because you stayed in a marriage after an affair.

IMHO.

[blizzard]

Can you love your SO and still cheat on them? Of course you can, but it is the "love", for a well broken-in pair of shoes , your favorite comfort food, or familiar music, not the love of a man for a woman. And it is totally without respect.

 

Bingo. My thoughts exactly.

[kevinm1019]

I just want to point out that I do not believe that cheating is an indication of an unhappy marriage or lack of love. I do not believe cheating is an automatic deal breaker. I do believe that a marriage that reconciles and recovers from a crisis such as infidelity...is a beautiful thing.

Hi all... I have read all of your posts and have a few different perspectives. If you don't mind... I would like to play both sides of the fence. I have been part of LS for a short period of time and have found myself not only inspired by some of the feedback but have also truly put things in perspective when it comes to being unfaithful and deciding to have a secret relationship with someone. Firstly, it is people such as "Owl" and "2sure" I tend to read and give thought to. On one side... how is the decision to (1) keep secrets from, (2) share any level of intimacy with another person or (3) deciding not to communicate your desires or needs with your significant but instead with your affair partner or interest a representation of love for your signficant other? I have been down this road with my significant other and through all of the challenges we have had with affairs in the past... there is an understanding of the hurt and pain you have caused a person if he or she chooses to forgive you. Unfortunately, many WS think that forgiveness is a sign of his or her significant other's weakness when it is truly a demonstration of love and willingness to work through the unfaithfulness and issues which led to the decision. With all that being said, if the WS demonstrates any actions or levels of characteristics which is likely to cause pain or the issues leading to the unfaithfulness to resurface... that person is only interested in his or her needs and personal gain... or what he or she believes is personal gain. If people continue to have the mentality that an affair can be considered a "casual mistake" or not as harmful as it seems... people will further devalue to significance of love and the principles of marriage. If cheating was acceptable and did not hurt people... why couldn't a man or a woman walk up to his or her partner whether it be a wife/husband... boyfriend/girlfriend and say... "Honey... I am not happy in this relationship and would like to go out a seek intimacy and affection from another person. We may get to know each other and decide to be intimate. What I'm going to do is tell this person all the things that are making me uncomfortable or unhappy whether they are selfish and self serving or not... and if that person validates me, my feelings and what "I" value... I'm going to reward him or her by letting him or her have me intimately any way he or she wants. It may lead to wild, animalistic sex or it may be passionate lovemaking... but I want you to know I still love you. Oh by the way... I'm not sure why I'm going to do this because I do not mean to hurt you... I'm not sure what I will be thinking at the time... please don't tell people who are important to me and his or her respect mean something to me... and in time... we will get over it together..." Doesn't that sound ridiculous?!!!!!!! Every person knows the difference between what is right... what is wrong... and what he or she would be willing to tolerate if he or she were placed in the same situation. The bottom line is if you are deceiving your mate... or telling the affair partner you are willing to participate in the affair whether or not you or he is involved or not... as the WS... you are fully aware of your actions, your decisions, methods of deception, pursuit of deception to participate in the affair and fully understand the consequences if you are discovered and/or discover your partner is having an affair. God intended marriage and love to not be hurtful and cause pain on this level to either partner. Unfortunately in today's world, society has glorified infidelity... made infidelity seem normal... and has defined sexual experimentation as a need and a right for anyone whether he or she is in a relationship or not. What would you say to God if he asked you why you went against his commandment and chose to not love your mate the way he has loved you? Or chose to continue your infidelity when he was willing to forgive you? Just some food for thought...

[aerogurl87]

Hi all... I have read all of your posts and have a few different perspectives. If you don't mind... I would like to play both sides of the fence. I have been part of LS for a short period of time and have found myself not only inspired by some of the feedback but have also truly put things in perspective when it comes to being unfaithful and deciding to have a secret relationship with someone. Firstly, it is people such as "Owl" and "2sure" I tend to read and give thought to. On one side... how is the decision to (1) keep secrets from, (2) share any level of intimacy with another person or (3) deciding not to communicate your desires or needs with your significant but instead with your affair partner or interest a representation of love for your signficant other? I have been down this road with my significant other and through all of the challenges we have had with affairs in the past... there is an understanding of the hurt and pain you have caused a person if he or she chooses to forgive you. Unfortunately, many WS think that forgiveness is a sign of his or her significant other's weakness when it is truly a demonstration of love and willingness to work through the unfaithfulness and issues which led to the decision. With all that being said, if the WS demonstrates any actions or levels of characteristics which is likely to cause pain or the issues leading to the unfaithfulness to resurface... that person is only interested in his or her needs and personal gain... or what he or she believes is personal gain. If people continue to have the mentality that an affair can be considered a "casual mistake" or not as harmful as it seems... people will further devalue to significance of love and the principles of marriage. If cheating was acceptable and did not hurt people... why couldn't a man or a woman walk up to his or her partner whether it be a wife/husband... boyfriend/girlfriend and say... "Honey... I am not happy in this relationship and would like to go out a seek intimacy and affection from another person. We may get to know each other and decide to be intimate. What I'm going to do is tell this person all the things that are making me uncomfortable or unhappy whether they are selfish and self serving or not... and if that person validates me, my feelings and what "I" value... I'm going to reward him or her by letting him or her have me intimately any way he or she wants. It may lead to wild, animalistic sex or it may be passionate lovemaking... but I want you to know I still love you. Oh by the way... I'm not sure why I'm going to do this because I do not mean to hurt you... I'm not sure what I will be thinking at the time... please don't tell people who are important to me and his or her respect mean something to me... and in time... we will get over it together..." Doesn't that sound ridiculous?!!!!!!! Every person knows the difference between what is right... what is wrong... and what he or she would be willing to tolerate if he or she were placed in the same situation. The bottom line is if you are deceiving your mate... or telling the affair partner you are willing to participate in the affair whether or not you or he is involved or not... as the WS... you are fully aware of your actions, your decisions, methods of deception, pursuit of deception to participate in the affair and fully understand the consequences if you are discovered and/or discover your partner is having an affair. God intended marriage and love to not be hurtful and cause pain on this level to either partner. Unfortunately in today's world, society has glorified infidelity... made infidelity seem normal... and has defined sexual experimentation as a need and a right for anyone whether he or she is in a relationship or not. What would you say to God if he asked you why you went against his commandment and chose to not love your mate the way he has loved you? Or chose to continue your infidelity when he was willing to forgive you? Just some food for thought...

 

I find the bolded part to be funny in a bittersweet way, as that is exactly what my ex boyfriend told me before he left me, although he was cheating before then. I guess telling me eased his conscience and made him feel like he wasn't really doing anything wrong.

[FructoseGrande]

I think it is easier for men to do this than women, simply because oftentimes to a cheating man, the OW is simply a side piece or a fling, whereas for a cheating wife, she needs to fall in love with the AP in order to go through with the cheating in the first place, and in doing so, falls out of love with her husband.

[anne1707]

I think it is easier for men to do this than women, simply because oftentimes to a cheating man, the OW is simply a side piece or a fling, whereas for a cheating wife, she needs to fall in love with the AP in order to go through with the cheating in the first place, and in doing so, falls out of love with her husband.

 

No this is not neccessarily the case. As I posted earlier, I never stopped loving my H. There was something missing in me in how I dealt with the problems in our marriage (which really were not that bad) so I did something cruel and selfish by having the affair but I know I have always loved my H. As it is, we are over 2 years post Dday and doing good - we would not be together if there was no love after all we have been through.

[seren]

Interesting post, my own take is that had H been toward me, the man he was toward OW, I would not have loved him, could not have loved him. The H that I knew, who temporarily left the buidling, so to speak, I loved and love.

H, at the time of the A, didn't love himself, he hated who he thought he had become (due to lots of things, mainly Iraq), saw himself as a bad person and felt that he was no good to anyone. He changed, became selfish, moody, lacked self esteem, felt not good enough for me, our son, our marriage. But, good enough for the OW, the A was not what I would call a relationship or love - OW saw it as such, for her own reasons and feelings of lack of esteem. The man my H portrayed to her, was nothing like the H I knew.

 

So, did he love me, absolutely, too much perhaps, was I to blame for any of it, well not the A, but the not recognising that what I thought was him being stressed from work and not a man on the edge, yes. My, love for him also took a back seat, yet I loved him absolutely, the in love bit, not so much so, but I loved the man I knew, same as he loved the woman he knew, we just both forgot.

 

Had we not been in love, we couldn't recover from the devastating effects of an A, we couldn't have remembered what it is to be in love.

So, I reckon yes you can be in love with your partner and have an A, for those who's A's are based on love, then no, you cannot be in love with your partner, then you leave. I think those who stay married, continue to lead double lives for years without making a decision are very different A's from the leaving and wanting to be with the person they are in love with.

I think that the continued double lives become everyday and do not understand how either the A or the M can be based on love.

[JustJoe]

Anne, marriages are always in a state of flux, so my point is that AT THE TIME OF THE AFFAIR, you probably didn't love your H as much as you may think, but rather, told yourself that you still did, to assuage your guilt. That you re-connected is more a tribute to your and his fundamental appreciation of each other, and possibly your realization that the affair wasn't going anywhere, so you learned to love again. Does this make any sense?

[Woggle]

You can love yourself and still cheat.

[pureinheart]

I've heard several people on this site state that you cannot love your spouse and cheat on them.

I most emphatically state every time that you can. I did. The people who believe that, IMHO are forming their beliefs on the basis that something must be wrong with the marriage, or the BS. When in fact the deficiency is within the cheater. It is a selfish thing. thoughts?

 

I think anything is possible....Thomas, I know you are sincere, and really feel bad for your issue years back, and maybe you were selfish and the problem did lie with only you...there are sooooo many senarios. I have personally experienced and seen abuse on all sides of this triangle, no two situations are exactly alike.

 

IMO, I would say by what I have experienced and seen, when there is an EMA, the love is gone...now there still is this "familiar love", although mostly I think the romantic, can't live without you love, is history....please keep in mind, I said mostly and from what "I" have seen, this is just my opinion:)

[jennie-jennie]

I am sorry he was selfish and felt sorry for himself and felt entitled to it in his immaturity. And he is a better man today. Remorseful, caring, apologetic.

 

After 2.5 years?!!! The bolded would be red flags to me.

[jennie-jennie]

Anne, marriages are always in a state of flux, so my point is that AT THE TIME OF THE AFFAIR, you probably didn't love your H as much as you may think, but rather, told yourself that you still did, to assuage your guilt. That you re-connected is more a tribute to your and his fundamental appreciation of each other, and possibly your realization that the affair wasn't going anywhere, so you learned to love again. Does this make any sense?

 

I don't know if it makes sense to Anne, but it does to me, it fits everything I have read of her story.

[Fieldsofgold]

Thomasb....fBS here....and this is such a hard concept to wrap my head around....

 

My FWS also claims he never stopped loving me, yet nothing has hurt me more than his affair.

 

And during his affair....he treated us like crap. I, and the children, chalked it up to job stress....but I think that hurt more than the affair itself.

 

Did you do this also?

 

Or were you one of the rare ones where the affair enhanced the marital relationship?

 

I realized intuitively that his affair had nothing to do with me or us. We were the same supportive and loving family we had always been. My son, 18 at the time of DDAY, reiterated that point to me and I took comfort in that.

 

But my emotions?????????

 

A nightmare rollercoaster that has taken the better part of 2.5 years to overcome.

 

I am sorry he was selfish and felt sorry for himself and felt entitled to it in his immaturity. And he is a better man today. Remorseful, caring, apologetic.

 

But I almost did not make it, the pain was that great.

 

So I do not think love of any kind is suppose to hurt like this did.

 

And I still wrestle with the resentment I sometimes feel that I even had to go through this at all. I and my children.

 

We did not deserve this.

 

No Spark, you most cetainly did not deserve this and neither did my wife or any other BS. No one ever deserves to be lied too and deceived.

I don't think I was emotionally abusive such as that during. But I do remember being angry alot. I hope I didn't ever direct it unfairly at my family... but I probably did. I believe most of my anger was inward though. I guess I'll have to ask my wife. I feel so badly for the pain I see in your post. All I can tell you is that time dulls the pain on both sides, and you can regain your trust in your husband. I was ecstatic when I realized my wife no longer felt the need to check and make sure I was being honest and trustworthy in my actions.

 

The bolded - I know it is what we all want to believe, but I'm not so sure.

 

When I read Spark's post, or others like it, the pain in my heart is like a searing knife, and I still cry bitterly. 30+ years later.

 

Yes, I spent plenty of time in counseling. I spent plenty of time praying, asking for help, strength, guidance, compassion, and the ability to forgive. I forgave everyone involved. I actually have no bad feelings toward the OW at all. And I fully forgave my H.

 

But the pain is still there.

[Fieldsofgold]

Interesting discussion, but I'm no closer to a conclusion. I'll answer the question with another; what is truth and what is personal experience?

 

I've grown an intolerance towards the 'all people are different' line. While it's true that everyone has unique traits, personalities, talents and strengths, the human condition remains. Our behavior, in relation to how we react to fear, loneliness, stress and conflict might differ person to person, but we can all relate to those through personal experience. Yet when it comes to love? That's different. We feel, judge, react and consider it's effects differently. Personally, I think that's a cop out. Lies are lies. No amount of sugarcoating can justify betrayal and selfishness.

 

My wife cheated, cheated some more and when I came to the conclusion she wasn't going to change, I filed. She didn't like that, but has never really come out and said why. I was supposed to wait around? Allow her to get through whatever she was going through? Now, she misses me.

 

Where I'm at on the subject is based largely on something my ex said once while 'opening up'. Reacting to a (perceived) act of kindness I heard her say "I love that you love me". What's the opposite of romantic... pathetic? The cheater may 'love' certain things about their spouse; their caring, faithfulness, etc. But love? Real man and woman love? That's not in the equation. Like love, cheating is a decision and that's hard to swallow.

 

All that said, I'd still be married if my ex had wanted me. But she didn't. That's my reality. I've come to the realization that I might have bigger problems now if she had, but that's only conjecture. I only know this for certain; if they loved you...really loved you, they'd be there.

 

the bolded, I understand that perfectly!

[seren]

After 2.5 years?!!! The bolded would be red flags to me.

 

What would the red flags be for? That someone still feels remorseful or apologetic for having an A, hurting their family, after 2.5.years?

My H hates what he has done, hates himself sometimes, for being the man he was during the A - personally I wish he wouldn't and didn't, but he does. I support him with these feelings, but his feeling of self loathing about what he did remains.

 

Perhaps I read your comment wrong, or perhaps I am missing something.

[cuore_depresso]

I was going to say that cheaters have a different definition of LOVE, but this quote says it.

 

TB, you are one of my favorite posters here. I can say that maybe you felt you loved your wife when you cheated, but it was your "version" of love. IMO, it wasn't the kind of love that has compassion for others, and seeks to protect, not hurt them. So sure, you might have loved her, but it wasn't a "pure" love, so to speak.

 

Same for those WS's who claim to "love" their AP.

 

How's that for armchair psychoanalysis?

 

Well said. Sorry but LOVE is about the other person, not yourself.

 

To say you can cheat and love your spouse at the same time? No way Jose.

[anne1707]

Anne, marriages are always in a state of flux, so my point is that AT THE TIME OF THE AFFAIR, you probably didn't love your H as much as you may think, but rather, told yourself that you still did, to assuage your guilt. That you re-connected is more a tribute to your and his fundamental appreciation of each other, and possibly your realization that the affair wasn't going anywhere, so you learned to love again. Does this make any sense?

 

I understand what your argument. i think its more that I lost sight of how much I loved my H. I was in such a state of confusion and denial (i.e. fog) that for too long I could not see what really mattered. The affair could have gone somewhere if I wanted (the ex-OM wanted to me to leave my H and marry him) but I fought against that because ultimately my H was who I loved and wanted most. When I could see how much I backed away from the ex-OM at stages during the affair, I could see that I loved my H far more than the ex-OM. Just wish I had come to my full senses far sooner.

 

I don't know if it makes sense to Anne, but it does to me, it fits everything I have read of her story.

 

No it doesn't. That's just an incorrect assumption based on your opinion of me and my choice to stay in my marriage. I wouldn't make assumptions about you how feel JJ and you would also quite rightly object if I did.

[anne1707]

What would the red flags be for? That someone still feels remorseful or apologetic for having an A, hurting their family, after 2.5.years?

My H hates what he has done, hates himself sometimes, for being the man he was during the A - personally I wish he wouldn't and didn't, but he does. I support him with these feelings, but his feeling of self loathing about what he did remains.

 

Perhaps I read your comment wrong, or perhaps I am missing something.

 

I too feel remorse about what I did. I hurt someone I love very much and I will not forget that. Not feeling this way would be like dismissing the pain that I caused.

 

I should add that I don't let it hang over me like a cloud or feel overwhelmed by guilt and my husband does nothing to make me feel that way either. He knows that I have recognised and taken responsibility for what I did to him and that is enough for him.