Can you love and still cheat?

[donnamaybe]

You seem like a strong woman (if I may use a euphenism!)

What does that mean? Not the word euphemism. I know what that means. Just wondering why it's a euphemism to call me a "strong woman."

 

I would like to ask you if you have ever regretted/felt remorseful about your own behaviour? I would like to see what that means for someone who makes no bones about not accepting the lack of remorse in WSs.

 

If I stay with my H, he will understand me and my love for xMOM (warts and all kinda).

 

And I will understand his stuff too.

 

That doesn't make me feel good about my A. But it is true.

I'm sure everyone has felt bad about something they have done after they view it in hindsight, as have I. What does that have to do with what it means for someone who "makes no bones about not accepting the lack of remorse" in a WS?

[blizzard]

fooled once I can't even get through the whole thread because I am infuriated at how a certain poster CONTINUES to come to this forum and take digs at the BS's. This is ridiculous. The same poster whines and cries in the OW/OM forum if a BS dares to post there. ENOUGH OF THE DIGS already *sigh*

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by blizzard

I have to join the minority... I don't believe that you can cheat and love your spouse. You may love them in a way that you "care" for them deeply but it is not the love of all love... which is commitment. Love is commitment. A selfless act. Love is saying forever...and sticking to it because you are NOT selfish.

 

When a WS can go to OW/OM and tell them that he loves them...while being sexually intimate... you can't tell me that WS still loves their spouse.

When WS spends every piece of free time with OW/OM when they could be with their own spouse...this is not love.

When WS badmouths their spouse (and they do) and lies about their alcoholism, control habits etc...that is not love.

When WS spouse makes promises to OW/OM about spending forever with them...WS cannot still their spouse.

 

I could go on with examples.

 

And I am not too sure about the "beauty" of love because you stayed in a marriage after an affair.

IMHO.

 

"Okay good - we know YOU don't believe in loving two people or loving ONE person and hurting them. Got it. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

I do wonder though, since this cheater doesn't love their spouse, are you sure they love the affair partner? Or are they just blowing smoke at that person in order to get sex whenever they want?

 

Each person who has been there are the ones who can accurately relate how THEY were feeling. To say "no, you didn't love your partner" is implying that you know the two married people better than they do; or that you know the person who cheated better than they know themselves. How is that?"

 

 

Fooled once, You began reply with an odd statement about poster exhausting digs at BS's. I hope it wasn't in reference to me because it is far from the truth

I understand the post read Can "WS" love his spouse and still cheat? Really whether WS loves AP or not is relevant. And not to say AP knows WS any better than BS, but WS words or actions in the affair toward AP portray...lack of respect, commitment and love to BS. Love is all of these things. Given all of things I listed that commence in an affair with OW/OM, WS cannot feel true "honest" love for their spouse. They may "think" they love their spouse...but maybe that is why they are where they are...in the midst of an affair.

 

I'm not posting to cause any BS's fur to stand about whether their spouse loved them or not. I am just posting from my experiences...the good and the bad.

[blizzard]

Blizzard, you still are not understanding that an affair can happen in a marriage that is virtually perfect. I wrote this post on another thread I'll just paste it here.

 

'There are needs that have to be met within yourself not the marriage you know. Your spouse can reinforce self confidence for instance, but cannot instill it in you. I cheated because of issues I had. There wasn't thing one wrong with either my marriage or my wife, she couldn't be more perfect to me. The imperfect one was me. Until I discovered that I couldn't function well in ANY relationship.'

 

thomasb

If your needs from within are not being met in your marriage something is wrong in your marriage. Something is wrong when you cannot communicate with your spouse about your needs from within. And I am not saying the BS is at fault... but marriage is a union... and it is up to you to communicate some storm that is happening within you to her.

[carhill]

Self-confidence - the person who *feels* a lack of self-confidence is responsible for reconciling that dynamic within themselves. If married, part of the loving commitment of one's spouse is that they show love, support and understanding about and for that journey. Rinse and repeat for other aspects of self-actualization.

 

If the spouse in need internalizes that need and doesn't communicate it, then the other spouse has no clear understanding of the dynamic or their possible role in mitigating or facilitating it in a positive way. They can't give specific 'love' because they're unaware of its need/desire. They can 'guess' from actions or proactively communicate based on their observations. However, if one spouse is always 'chasing' the other trying to figure it out, then that creates an unhealthy dynamic all its own.

 

marriage is a union... and it is up to you to communicate some storm that is happening within you to her.

Yep, this...

 

Edited to add that I can't personally imagine a dynamic where I had a 'perfect' and loving marriage yet felt incapacitated to share my fears, uncertainties and self-doubts with the person most close to me. My desire to end my M turned upon that dynamic, in that the person whom I was all those things for abandoned me in my time of need, clearly communicated.

Edited October 22, 2010 by carhill

[silktricks]

It is my humble opinion that in order for someone to experience true love, they need to put the other's happiness and needs before their own. Always.

Always??? WOW. Maybe a saint could do that. I know I couldn't, nor could anyone I know, and yet I do know that I "experience true love".

 

I find, that in life, it is prudent for one to never do things for which they are not willing to pay the potential consequences. The hurt in my wife's eyes was something that I was never willing to see.

 

It would not be possible for me to cheat on the woman with whom I am truly in love because adults consider consequences prior to their actions.

Prudent - absolutely - prudent never to do something you haven't thought out the consequences for. Maybe some people actually do live their lives that way. I don't. Nor, frankly, would I ever want to live with anyone who did. Everyone I care to spend time with is much less cerebral. They do not microplan their lives, nor do they always consider consequences to their actions. It would be nice in some ways to be self-aware enough to really know they why's and wherefore's of all of our actions. IME, though, not many people are that aware, nor that planned. It all sounds a little cold blooded to me.

 

I think you have an interesting outlook on life. Not one I'd care to have personally, but interesting.

[JustJoe]

JustJoe, uh, in case you hadn't noticed you are on my thread. If you don't wish me to post to you then I suggest a different thread.

Okay, Thomas, I'll do that. Nothing personal, you understand.

[In Like Flynn]

Whoops wrong thread

Edited October 23, 2010 by In Like Flynn

[wheelwright]

Seren is an amazing woman! She is a total asset to this site!

 

 

again, you are blaming your spouse because YOU chose to cheat. That is bull, IMHO. You could have separated. You could have gone alone to counseling. But you didn't - you chose to cheat instead. Even if "he cheated first" that isn't an excuse for you to have an affair. At least own the choices you made - that they were YOUR choices. But all I see from your post is how HE did this and how HE did that.

 

My ex husband chose to be out 5 out of 7 nights a week, drinking. Even when I was pregnant and even after our son was born. Then the physical abuse started.

 

I chose DIVORCE over cheating. That doesn't make me better than anyone (cause I am waiting for that comment). Cheating is NOT the answer to marital issues, no matter how you spin it, I will never believe "oh, so he watched porn, ya you had a right to cheat". There are ALWAYS other options. You chose the 'easiest' option, IMHO. My point is to OWN your choices, not blame others.

 

As you can clearly see here in this forum, there are many WS's who state clearly that their spouse didn't CAUSE them to cheat NOR did the spouse have an inkling that their mate was cheating. I applaud those former WS's who OWN the choices they made and not try to shift the blame to someone else.

 

Different strokes?

 

I never said my H caused me to cheat.

 

But his behaviour was a factor on my choice.

 

It was my cowardly way - but I wouldn't have taken it had he have been different.

 

Life's like that. You take responsibility for your bit, and don't blame others too much for theirs.

 

I do own my choices. That was part of the feeling in the A. And why I feel remorse but not regret. The feelings in the A were good. Worth it. (Maybe).

 

I have been on LS for a while, and I am swayed by people and their feelings.

 

But I am finding my place. I do not have to feel I do not have remorse because some people interpret my stance as such. I do feel sorry.

 

I do not have to feel it is wrong to have some reverance for the love I felt for my xAP, even though he threw me under, and even though it hurt my H.

 

I do not have to feel bad if I see reasons for my hurtful behaviour stemming from a difficult background.

 

Honestly, I don't like people being judgemental. I like them understanding.

 

That's how I treat myself. And others. My friends like me for it.

[wheelwright]

Something went wrong on the quotes on this thread?

 

I would rather that be cleared up than the thread closed.

[wheelwright]

What does that mean? Not the word euphemism. I know what that means. Just wondering why it's a euphemism to call me a "strong woman."

 

I'm sure everyone has felt bad about something they have done after they view it in hindsight, as have I. What does that have to do with what it means for someone who "makes no bones about not accepting the lack of remorse" in a WS?

 

Take it as a compliment. I meant it as such. Like all compliments, you have to think how to take it once its given.

 

Second part, you seem very one way about the WS.

 

That's what I meant there.

 

Like, you find it difficult to see a WSs point, because of remorse etc. I wondered if you feel remorse yourself?

 

Not sure it would go with the strong persona. Kind of.

[BlackLovely]

Emotions are never black or white. They come in many shades of grey. Cheaters who feel remorse and end the affair decide that love for their spouse is more important than love for sex with someone else.

[wheelwright]

Emotions are never black or white. They come in many shades of grey. Cheaters who feel remorse and end the affair decide that love for their spouse is more important than love for sex with someone else.

 

Or love in a bigger way. Or just that they wanted love. And then they thought their BS might be in the same mindset.

[JAGeezer]

I've heard several people on this site state that you cannot love your spouse and cheat on them.

I most emphatically state every time that you can. I did. The people who believe that, IMHO are forming their beliefs on the basis that something must be wrong with the marriage, or the BS. When in fact the deficiency is within the cheater. It is a selfish thing. thoughts?

 

Define "love". I'm big on love vs "in love". We can all love many different things and different people to varying degrees, from the trivial to the sublime. But being "in love" is another matter. Being in love is a state of mind, not an emotion. A state of mind wherein your happiness is dependent on your love object's happiness. I'll hand you something a shrink once told me. Human beings don't have the emotional capital to be in love with two people at the same time. Being in love requires a sort of single-minded commitment that precludes being involved with anyone else. Who were you in love with during your A? Your W, your AP, or yourself?

 

Did you love your W while you were having an A? Perhaps, only you know that, but I submit that having an A is a damn strange way of showing it. Were you in love with her? If I need to answer that question then you're not as smart as you'd better hope that you are if you want to save your M.

 

JAG

[JAGeezer]

thomasb

If your needs from within are not being met in your marriage something is wrong in your marriage. Something is wrong when you cannot communicate with your spouse about your needs from within. And I am not saying the BS is at fault... but marriage is a union... and it is up to you to communicate some storm that is happening within you to her.

 

I'm always bothered by the whole "unmet needs apparently gives you a hunting license" thing.

 

If I need more money than I have, should I work harder to earn more? Or should I rob a bank, set up a meth lab...or pimp out my daughters for cash?

 

I need better sex than my W is providing, then I should be able to seek it elsewhere and say..."Ooops honey, I had needs." after the fact?

 

A's are seldom about needs. They're about gluttony and appetite that the WS and the AP claim to be needs. Try a little thought experiment, that holds true for anything, not just A's. The next time you start a statement with "I need", stop yourself and swap in words "I want", and see how the statement plays. I started out life wanting a lot of things that I wasn't entitled to have. I grew up and learned the difference between need and want. Most of the WS's and AP's I see posting on these boards are still trying to master that trick.

 

Unmet needs are unregenerate whining by people who need to grow the hell up and realize that this is MARRIAGE, not "Wheel of Fortune" or a romance novel.

 

JAG

[anne1707]

Like, you find it difficult to see a WSs point, because of remorse etc. I wondered if you feel remorse yourself?

 

Not sure it would go with the strong persona. Kind of.

 

 

As a strong woman who does feel remorse, I think the two can go hand in hand. In fact it may be possible to argue that it is a strong person who can feel remorse whilst a weaker one just feels guilt or regret.

[jthorne]

As a strong woman who does feel remorse, I think the two can go hand in hand. In fact it may be possible to argue that it is a strong person who can feel remorse whilst a weaker one just feels guilt or regret.

By weaker, do you also mean unwilling to "own" their responsibility? Just asking because I'm seeing a lot of instances lately of people (not you) who are unwilling to own up to what they've done and accept the consequences. They want to blameshift, make excuses or claim they are/were owed something. Might just be indicative of where they are in their healing process, but it's apparent nonetheless.

[anne1707]

I think a strong person not only has the ability to recognise and admit where they have gone wrong to themself but also to others. In turn they will also try to change/improve/learn based on the past to have a better life in the future.

 

A strong person can see that they got it wrong. A weak person will blame others.

[Fieldsofgold]

I think a strong person not only has the ability to recognise and admit where they have gone wrong to themself but also to others. In turn they will also try to change/improve/learn based on the past to have a better life in the future.

 

A strong person can see that they got it wrong. A weak person will blame others.

 

Absolutely!

[jthorne]

I think a strong person not only has the ability to recognise and admit where they have gone wrong to themself but also to others. In turn they will also try to change/improve/learn based on the past to have a better life in the future.

 

A strong person can see that they got it wrong. A weak person will blame others.

Ah, well, here also is where regret and remorse comes into play? A person can have regret, but it is the person that can admit ownership of their wrongdoing that has remorse.

[blizzard]

To clarify, I was responding to thomasb's statement "There are needs that have to be met within yourself not the marriage "

 

But not sure if agree about not having needs and but only wants though. Love is pretty powerful and can be more than just a want. Of course, all ppl have different wants and needs...even when it comes to affairs. I am not condoning that your needs be met by an affair...one should try communicating to their spouse that their needs aren't being met before jumping into affair.

 

I'm always bothered by the whole "unmet needs apparently gives you a hunting license" thing.

 

If I need more money than I have, should I work harder to earn more? Or should I rob a bank, set up a meth lab...or pimp out my daughters for cash?

 

I need better sex than my W is providing, then I should be able to seek it elsewhere and say..."Ooops honey, I had needs." after the fact?

 

A's are seldom about needs. They're about gluttony and appetite that the WS and the AP claim to be needs. Try a little thought experiment, that holds true for anything, not just A's. The next time you start a statement with "I need", stop yourself and swap in words "I want", and see how the statement plays. I started out life wanting a lot of things that I wasn't entitled to have. I grew up and learned the difference between need and want. Most of the WS's and AP's I see posting on these boards are still trying to master that trick.

 

Unmet needs are unregenerate whining by people who need to grow the hell up and realize that this is MARRIAGE, not "Wheel of Fortune" or a romance novel.

 

JAG

Edited October 25, 2010 by blizzard

[JAGeezer]

To clarify, I was responding to thomasb's statement "There are needs that have to be met within yourself not the marriage "

 

But not sure if agree about not having needs and but only wants though. Love is pretty powerful and can be more than just a want. Of course, all ppl have different wants and needs...even when it comes to affairs. I am not condoning that your needs be met by an affair...one should try communicating to their spouse that their needs aren't being met before jumping into affair.

 

I agree that love is powerful, but unlike a lot of folks here, I believe that it's ALWAYS your choice. It depends on your boundaries and how strong your sense of personal integrity and honor is. The idea that "you just can't help yourself", that it's so overpowering that it's beyond your control is a pile of road apples. The sort of love I see WS's and AP's talking about always seems to be defined by what they want, not by what they actually need. They're ruled by their appetites. Controlled by their gonads.

 

I'll leave you with a couple of old quotes. This one has been attributed the, variously, Lord Acton, Lord Chesterfield, and George Washington Carver and refers to sex. I don't agree with it in that context, and I believe it applies to A's without exception. "The pleasure is fleeting, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable."

 

The other I'm certain belongs to Carver. "Ninety-nine percent of the failures come from people who have the habit of making excuses." One thing about WS's and AP's, for the largest part most of them are all over the blame-shifting and the excuses. Some get past that eventually. Far too many don't.

 

JAG

[Fieldsofgold]

I agree that love is powerful, but unlike a lot of folks here, I believe that it's ALWAYS your choice. It depends on your boundaries and how strong your sense of personal integrity and honor is. The idea that "you just can't help yourself", that it's so overpowering that it's beyond your control is a pile of road apples.

 

I completely agree with this statement. Anyone who is of sound mind can make a choice.

 

Having said that, some people have issues that make it harder for them to make good choices. Some people lack adequate motivation. For some people, there are personal issues about love/rejection/XYZ from childhood (or adulthood) that increases their level of vulnerability. There are people with ADD who have poor impulse control in all areas of their lives. These things still do not override their ability to make choices, not at all. But might make the temptation stronger for them than for some other people. It's easy for me to harshly judge the alcoholic, when that is not my weakness. BUT, it IS still a choice, and alcoholics DO stop drinking every day.

 

I recall a certain president who got a lot of media attention for his affair with a young woman. It amazed me that people made excuses for HIM. In his position, with his power, all he had to do was tell the Secret Sevice, "don't allow that woman near me," and it would have been done.

 

The rest of us don't have those security forces in place, but I'm guessing if we really didn't want to have an affair, all we would have to do is sit down with our spouse and other family members and tell them we are tempted, and ask them to help us resist. In most cases, I think we would get plenty of help.

 

The problem is, people have affairs because, for whatever reason, at that moment, they want to more than they want to remain faithful. It IS always a matter of choice. Maybe a very hard choice, but still a choice.

[Spark1111]

Define "love". I'm big on love vs "in love". We can all love many different things and different people to varying degrees, from the trivial to the sublime. But being "in love" is another matter. Being in love is a state of mind, not an emotion. A state of mind wherein your happiness is dependent on your love object's happiness. I'll hand you something a shrink once told me. Human beings don't have the emotional capital to be in love with two people at the same time. Being in love requires a sort of single-minded commitment that precludes being involved with anyone else. Who were you in love with during your A? Your W, your AP, or yourself?

 

Did you love your W while you were having an A? Perhaps, only you know that, but I submit that having an A is a damn strange way of showing it. Were you in love with her? If I need to answer that question then you're not as smart as you'd better hope that you are if you want to save your M.

 

JAG

 

Being "in love" is a choice to fuel an attraction that leads to those heady-hormonal rushes one experiences in the beginning of ANY relationship.

 

It is a dopamine spiking chemical reaction to an attraction and can last from one to two years.

 

That old cliched line of , "I love you, but I am no longer 'in love' with you" makes most mental health professionals groan as they realize the client has no basis for mature love and is seeking a return to adolescence with sweaty palms, racing heartbeats and back-seat car encounters.

 

If they do not understand how love is supposse to deepen and mature over time they are doomed to seek the "rush" from a new source after it wears off.

 

They generally do not do long-term relationships very well until they either adjust their thinking/and or educate themselves.

[Spark1111]

I think a strong person not only has the ability to recognise and admit where they have gone wrong to themself but also to others. In turn they will also try to change/improve/learn based on the past to have a better life in the future.

 

A strong person can see that they got it wrong. A weak person will blame others.

 

It takes a stronger more courageous person to exhibit true remorse for their actions.

 

And if they cannot find it in their hearts, are they truly in love with their spouse?

 

I think not, IMO.

[Spark1111]

Thank you. Whether or not she deserved me, I loved her and wanted our family to survive. It has, but not intact. The key I believe, it making the best of whatever situation you find yourself in. Lemonade from lemons, and all that. I treated it like an illness...like my wife was no longer with us. The task of getting on became the focus. Not the pain. It wasn't easy.

 

I must of gained something in the process, because I find myself truly happy and glad when I read of marriages that have survived infidelity. For that rare few (it seems) a light goes on and the fight within them awakens. In these cases, IMO, love boldly returns or perhaps takes on its true form...forged by the fear, dread or realization of what could be lost forever. Sure seems like a mixed up way of discovering it though!

 

Could not agree more, Steadfast!

 

How sad that the fence sitters, the chronically negatives, the grass MUST be greener folks do not realize what they are about to lose until the bags are packed and walking out the door!

 

How much happier they could have been and they loved and appreciated what was right under their nose the whole time!