Do you think about leagues when your hitting on somebody?

[LittleTiger]

With physical attractiveness comes trouble -and heartache. *

 

*Not always, but some of the time.

 

I don't know where you got that idea from. Everybody has trouble and heartache - physically attractive people don't have it any worse than anyone else.

 

I am actually stunned at how hung up on looks everybody seems to be.

[SteveC80]

I kinda feel sorry for unattractive dudes these days even women on their level ingnroe them becasue they have inflated egos because of all the sexual advances they get.

 

Though i guess Men are to blame for inflating the egos.

[Knittress]

I don't think women spend as much time thinking about leagues and whatall as men do, though I certainly could be wrong. In fact, I don't even have any idea what 'league' I'm in (the world CAN'T be starkly divided along the lines of 'size zero' vs. 'everything else', right?). What I mostly notice is whether the men around me are groomed and kind-looking.

[sweetjasmine]

Your view of life is very sad and disillusioned.

 

And that's very unattractive, IMO, and more of a turn off than "average" physical appearance ever could be.

[LittleTiger]

And that's very unattractive, IMO, and more of a turn off than "average" physical appearance ever could be.

 

Yes, exactly. What a shame some guys really believe it's their looks that are frightening women away, when in fact it's their attitude to life that's the turn off. So sad.

[Stung]

You're missing the point. Physical attraction is NOT just about looks.

 

If it was, the of the whole human race would look like film stars by now. We'd all be Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie lookalikes because any of the 'lesser mortals' wouldn't be getting any sex!

 

 

 

Give it up, Little Tiger. All of the young guys who have trouble getting dates know WAY more about what women like than YOU ever will, silly cub.

[LittleTiger]

Give it up, Little Tiger. All of the young guys who have trouble getting dates know WAY more about what women like than YOU ever will, silly cub.

 

:laugh:

[Stung]

More seriously, I think both positions are somewhat right. I mean, there is a certain threshold of physical attractiveness that has to be reached--while there are women in the world who will find love with the morbidly obese funnyman, they are not in the majority. That being said, the physical-attractiveness-threshold is not as high as some of the guys on this board seem to think, and once it is reached or overshot, women tend to find a plethora of different men attractive, chubby, hairy, skinny, bald, dark, fair, even (gasp) kinda short--as long as they exhibit other persuasive traits, such as charisma, humor, intelligence, skill, passion/ambition--ideally, all of the above. There are studies on dating behaviors which have found that most women's attraction ranges are actually much more wide-ranging than most men's--I don't have the studies at my fingertips at the moment, but I'd imagine they're Googleable just like everything else.

 

If the men on this board are below the threshold, they're going to have trouble meeting women. There might be things they can do to give themselves a boost, however: lose weight, clear up their acne, maybe just a better haircut/wardrobe--maybe they need to work on their posture, their eye contact, their voice projection, their smile. A lot of men underestimate the attention that women pay, even subliminally, to style, and to presence.

If they are above the threshold and still not getting dates, they should turn their attention to their other attributes. I know plenty of women who have been suckers for the husky short guy with the wicked grin, great sense of humor, and personal charisma, or the guy with the thinning hair and crappy day job who was passionate about his art and a fascinating conversationalist. They might need to work on their skills, including their interpersonal skills.

 

The other obstacle of course is simply that dating, meeting the right person, and having successful relationships are hard for EVERYONE.

[GoodOnPaper]

I was always all too conscious of leagues. As soon as I found a woman that I was attracted enough to to pursue, I'd realize that tons of other guys would think so too, and that would hold me back. As you can imagine, finding a woman that you can be crazy about while at the same time thinking that no one else would is a very difficult task -- one I wasn't successful at.

[LittleTiger]

More seriously, I think both positions are somewhat right.

 

I couldn't agree more, Stung. Your post is spot on.

 

The best chance any guy has for success with dating is to make the most of what he's got, which is what I tried to say in my first post before I got shot down by a barrage of bullets.

 

Some guys clearly have less obvious advantages than others but most, if not all, have something that will attract someone and the more fixated a guy is with his 'lack of good looks' the less attractive he will be.

 

Just the word 'dating' makes me think 'needle in a haystack' but worrying about whether you're hitting on people in the right 'league' as well turns it into a very small needle. Finding Mr or Ms Right isn't easy for anyone, good looking or not, and keeping them once you have found them can be even harder.

 

You can look like Brad Pitt, Hugh Jackman, Johnny Depp (or whoever the young girls go for these days), if you're a jerk she's not going to hang around for long.

[EasyHeart]

Looks are subjective, too. I have friends whose wives/girlfriends I don't think are all that pretty, but my friends sure do. And I've dated women who I thought were knockouts and my friends thought were "meh". So you might see a "10" and think, "Why bother? She'd never go for me," while she is thinking, "I wish that cute guy would talk to me, but he's way out of my league."

[somedude81]

Yes, exactly. What a shame some guys really believe it's their looks that are frightening women away, when in fact it's their attitude to life that's the turn off. So sad.

Oh give me a break.

 

When I'm around girls, I'm happy, I joke and flirt. I'm not negative at all.

 

Are women attracted to me? No!

 

The only reason I can come up with is that me being 5'6 while not being very good looking instantly means that I'm undateable to women. I also don't have a very active social life which is another huge negative.

 

So yes leagues are a very real concept for me. More so with the fact that the hotter the girl is, the better the guys will be who are going after her. If I can't keep up with the competition, then there really is no point in me even trying.

[LittleTiger]

Oh give me a break.

 

I didn't realise I was talking to you personally . I said 'some guys' so not sure why you're leaping on my post.

 

So yes leagues are a very real concept for me. More so with the fact that the hotter the girl is, the better the guys will be who are going after her. If I can't keep up with the competition, then there really is no point in me even trying.

 

So why do you? Keep trying I mean? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just curious what motivates you - other than sex of course.

 

From what I remember, the flirting and joking you're talking about is with girls who are ten years or so younger than you - which is a bit like looking for your own needle in somebody else's haystack.

[somedude81]

I didn't realise I was talking to you personally . I said 'some guys' so not sure why you're leaping on my post.

Even though you said 'some guys' it's obvious that you are talking all the guys who think that their looks are the reason why they are having trouble with women. It seems that you're saying that the guys who think that looks are the issue are wrong and that it's all about their attitude and looks don't matter at all.

So why do you? Keep trying I mean? I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just curious what motivates you - other than sex of course.

Other than sex; the desire for intimacy, companionship, not being alone. The same reasons why anybody, man or woman wants to have a partner.

From what I remember, the flirting and joking you're talking about is with girls who are ten years or so younger than you - which is a bit like looking for your own needle in somebody else's haystack.

Just because I'm 10 years older than the girls I'm into, doesn't mean I have always been. Once upon a time I also was 18-22 and I actually did worse with women that I'm doing now. Girls also don't know that I'm 10 years older than them. Also I don't have a chance at all with women my own age. I don't know where to find them, and we'd have completely different lifestyles and expectations.

[Stung]

Oh give me a break.

 

When I'm around girls, I'm happy, I joke and flirt. I'm not negative at all.

 

Are women attracted to me? No!

 

The only reason I can come up with is that me being 5'6 while not being very good looking instantly means that I'm undateable to women. I also don't have a very active social life which is another huge negative.

 

So yes leagues are a very real concept for me. More so with the fact that the hotter the girl is, the better the guys will be who are going after her. If I can't keep up with the competition, then there really is no point in me even trying.

 

This is in no way meant to be mean or critical, somedude81, but your posting history, in my subjective opinion, illustrates someone who is socially awkward. I think I recall seeing a picture of you and thinking you looked fine, above-average if you are who I think you are. While your height is admittedly not a huge benefit to you, I have known men of your stature who had much more successful relationship histories than you seem to.

 

Perhaps you should consider looking into ways to improve your interpersonal skills and social/emotional intelligence, as a starter.

 

There is such a thing as leagues, IMO, if you are factoring in things besides just looks.

 

If a somewhat above-average-looking to average-looking guy who is socially awkward and has low charisma levels is fixated on really attractive and bright women with good social skills, he is not even going to register on her radar--but honestly, he's going to have a harder time with women in general unless he adjusts his sights to focus on women who are similarly socially awkward and have trouble relating to people fluidly. A somewhat above-average to average-looking guy who is charismatic, interesting, and has fluid, above-average social skills is going to register on most women's radars.

[Cracker Jack]

I see where you're coming from, Stung.

 

That's why having SA is so annoying. Sometimes I think my looks aren't the problem, then there are other times when I do believe they are. What's even more annoying is being in a social setting, trying your best to fit in, but realizing not long after that you're far too lacking in social skills and can't keep up. Almost every day I try to ask myself what it is I can do to fix this, and I really, really can't come up with anything. Sometimes I feel like I can't improve.

 

It's gotten to the point where even if I see a beautiful woman staring at me, I only glance for a second and then forget she's there, since I know I sure as hell would have no chance with her, even if she's continuing to stare at me. I don't know why I'm like this.

[sanskrit]

I never said that looks don't matter. What I said was they are not as important as you guys seem to think.

 

Looks are much more important to women than men are taught growing up by well-intentioned but misguided women, who incidentally have never dated women themselves.

 

You posted earlier that physical attraction isn't all about looks, true, it's only 90-95% about looks.

[somedude81]

This is in no way meant to be mean or critical, somedude81, but your posting history, in my subjective opinion, illustrates someone who is socially awkward. I think I recall seeing a picture of you and thinking you looked fine, above-average if you are who I think you are. While your height is admittedly not a huge benefit to you, I have known men of your stature who had much more successful relationship histories than you seem to.

Above-average? Now I'm sure your thinking of somebody else. I posted some pics in this post. How kind of you to say that my height is "not a huge benefit" to me. Don't worry, I know what you really mean.

 

illustrates someone who is socially awkward.

 

Perhaps you should consider looking into ways to improve your interpersonal skills and social/emotional intelligence, as a starter.

Yeah, I know that there is something socially not quite right with me. I have absolutely zero friends, so I know something is wrong. Though I do have several buddies, girls actually, that I regularly talk to in class and in the Japanese club meetings I go to.

 

How would I "improve my interpersonal skills and social/emotional intelligence?"

There is such a thing as leagues, IMO, if you are factoring in things besides just looks.

 

If a somewhat above-average-looking to average-looking guy who is socially awkward and has low charisma levels is fixated on really attractive and bright women with good social skills, he is not even going to register on her radar--but honestly, he's going to have a harder time with women in general unless he adjusts his sights to focus on women who are similarly socially awkward and have trouble relating to people fluidly. A somewhat above-average to average-looking guy who is charismatic, interesting, and has fluid, above-average social skills is going to register on most women's radars.

I'm aware that leagues are more than just looks. Even though I didn't mention it, I tend to avoid women with very active social lives. They're usually too busy to hang out and they expect a lot from the guys they're spending time with. Attractive girls who have really good social skills, I don't even bother with them. Out of my league.

 

I focus on girls who are average but still cute, which most girls are. Also Japanese classes seem to be a haven for girls who don't have the best social skills. So in my eyes, we're very compatible.

 

But despite me being able to be friends with them, I don't register on their radar as a potential date. I wonder what kind of guys these girls want, and if those guys are actually out of the those girls leagues? Of course an average girl can easily get sex from the most desired guys if they wanted to, so those girls tend to ignore normal to slightly below-normal guys. Hence my frustration.

[Stung]

Btw, having social intelligence is not the same thing as having a lot of friends, and having low social intelligence is not an inescapable doom. It's something that CAN be changed. Social skills come really naturally only to a minority, IMO, most people have to work on improving and maintaining their skills to some degree, and then some people have to practice and work on them a lot. No shame in it, just different kinds of intelligence.

 

I went through a period where I did a lot of critical observing and worked specifically on my social skills; it was easier and more interesting for me personally than, say, higher math, but harder than languages. There were people who cruised through labs more effortlessly than I did because maths came more easily to them, but I was still in the top tier of my biology courses.

[LittleTiger]

Even though you said 'some guys' it's obvious that you are talking all the guys who think that their looks are the reason why they are having trouble with women. It seems that you're saying that the guys who think that looks are the issue are wrong and that it's all about their attitude and looks don't matter at all.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If you follow my line of thinking from my previous posts you'll see that I was talking about something very specific and I have never said that looks don't matter at all. I said that they play less of a role than most guys think. The fact that you read so much into a few words and took it so personally suggests to me that you have serious confidence issues, which, like it or not, WILL make a difference when you approach women. You can laugh, smile and flirt all you want - if you don't appear relaxed and confident, women will see through right through you.

 

Other than sex; the desire for intimacy, companionship, not being alone. The same reasons why anybody, man or woman wants to have a partner.

 

I asked this question because other posts of yours have led me to believe that sex is really all you're after. Isn't there a thread of yours about a girl who wants to be single and you don't understand why she'd rather be single than have sex with you (even if she isn't attracted to you)? It doesn't work that way and your apparent confusion about this does suggest some gaps in your understanding about relationships.

 

Just because I'm 10 years older than the girls I'm into, doesn't mean I have always been. Once upon a time I also was 18-22 and I actually did worse with women that I'm doing now. Girls also don't know that I'm 10 years older than them. Also I don't have a chance at all with women my own age. I don't know where to find them, and we'd have completely different lifestyles and expectations.

 

I think it's unlikely that an 18 year old girl will not realise that you are older than her unless you have a very, very young face AND attractive, confident 18 year old girls are likely to be the most looks-conscious of all the women you will come across.

[Stung]

Tried to edit above post to add:

 

I don't know what work you've done on this already, somedude. If you Google improving social skills, literally hundreds of sites and book recommendations and articles pop up. If you have no success on your own, through critical observation and introspection or through reading articles/books and then experimenting, there are people who are actually professionals at this. Sometimes they call themselves consultants, sometimes coaches. I'd imagine the problem with that, other than expense, is obviously that it's not a very regulated field, and you'd have to make sure the coach/consultant person was legit and actually good at their job--but if you're willing to put in some research, it might be a good option.

[somedude81]

Thanks for the info Stung. I need to do some research. BTW you still haven't said if I was the guy you were thinking about.

The fact that you read so much into a few words and took it so personally suggests to me that you have serious confidence issues, which, like it or not, WILL make a difference when you approach women. You can laugh, smile and flirt all you want - if you don't appear relaxed and confident, women will see through right through you.

Yeah, low confidence and I've been extra bitter this week, sorry.

 

I do wonder if women are seeing through me. That may be a reason why I'm not attracting them.

I asked this question because other posts of yours have led me to believe that sex is really all you're after. Isn't there a thread of yours about a girl who wants to be single and you don't understand why she'd rather be single than have sex with you (even if she isn't attracted to you)? It doesn't work that way and your apparent confusion about this does suggest some gaps in your understanding about relationships.

I wasn't so concerned about her not wanting to have sex with me; just actually letting me date her and see how things go. We get along great together but for some reason she seems afraid to be with me off-campus. I could have lunch with her tomorrow if I wanted and then walk all over campus for an hour, but she refuses to do any date like activity.

 

The fact that she isn't seeing anybody now makes it so frustrating to me because it makes me feel that I'm worse than nothing. Does she think that she's so far above me, (despite her not even being that cute) that she possibly can't settle for me?

 

I think it's unlikely that an 18 year old girl will not realise that you are older than her unless you have a very, very young face AND attractive, confident 18 year old girls are likely to be the most looks-conscious of all the women you will come across.

LOL, of course I know that girls won't think that I'm the same age as them. I know girls are into older guys and there shouldn't be any issue with a girl going out with somebody she thinks is 3 or 4 years older than herself. Look at my pictures I linked to, do I look 29? Edited October 19, 2010 by somedude81

[porter218]

Terrible advice. Women are very much attracted to looks, even more so then men IMO. Average men are not famous or rich or have a hilarious sense of humor. All the above advice is useless for the average joe. Confidence is overrated.

 

Well that advice works fine with women like me. I am good looking ..I used to model full-time and I still do part-time but looks aren't as important to me as charisma and humor. I don't want an ugly guy but a 5 or 6 is fine as long as he has confidence and truly believes I should go for him. I love good humor, I can't do without that..but I can do just fine without a hot man.

[Stung]

I see where you're coming from, Stung.

 

That's why having SA is so annoying. Sometimes I think my looks aren't the problem, then there are other times when I do believe they are. What's even more annoying is being in a social setting, trying your best to fit in, but realizing not long after that you're far too lacking in social skills and can't keep up. Almost every day I try to ask myself what it is I can do to fix this, and I really, really can't come up with anything. Sometimes I feel like I can't improve.

 

It's gotten to the point where even if I see a beautiful woman staring at me, I only glance for a second and then forget she's there, since I know I sure as hell would have no chance with her, even if she's continuing to stare at me. I don't know why I'm like this.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for the genuinely socially awkward, it is totally different and much more of a handicap than simply being a little shy or not knowing what to do with your hands or whatever some people think it is. I'm not trying to blow sunshine up anyone's ass, it's definitely hard work to improve on one's natural social skillset, to go against ingrained thought patterns, to learn new ways of processing information and to fill in gaps of perception. Sometimes even small improvements can be like miracles to your life, though.

 

In your case, SA = social anxiety? Have you ever tried any of the medications for that, or seen a therapist who specializes in it?

[LittleTiger]

Yeah, low confidence and I've been extra bitter this week, sorry.

 

I do wonder if women are seeing through me. That may be a reason why I'm not attracting them.

 

I think Stung's suggestion is a good one. Psychological coaching is a great way to develop yourself personally in all sorts of ways. You can work on confidence (in all sorts of situations), assertiveness, relaxation, whatever areas you want to work on. Look for NLP or Life Coaching and get recommendations if you can because coaches aren't regulated. Also don't be afraid to try somebody different if you're not comfortable with the first person you see.

 

I wasn't so concerned about her not wanting to have sex with me; just actually letting me date her and see how things go. We get along great together but for some reason she seems afraid to be with me off-campus. I could have lunch with her tomorrow if I wanted and then walk all over campus for an hour, but she refuses to do any date like activity.

 

This may be brutal but that's because she isn't attracted to you, other than as her platonic friend and she doesn't want to lead you on or give you the wrong idea. You come across as a little 'desperate' to me and I only know you from a few posts on LS. Maybe she senses that you are desperate and doesn't want to put herself in an awkward situation.