Are we masochists or optimists?

[EricaH329]

Yes, I am going to quote Carrie Bradshaw in Sex and the City. She raises a very good question and i'd like to hear everyones thoughts on this.

 

In love relationships, there is a fine line between pleasure and pain. In fact, it's a common belief that a relationship without pain is a relationship not worth having. To some, pain implies growth. But how do we know when the growing pains stop, and the pain pains take over? Are we masochists or optimists if we continue to walk that fine line? When it comes to relationships, how do you know when enough is enough?

 

The bolded part is the question I find most interesting. What are your thoughts? How much pain will you endure before breaking it off?

[EricaH329]

I think Carrie Bradshaw is a sack of crap and sex in the city has played a large role in soiling all western womankind.

 

So you are saying that she doesn't bring up a relevant question? Because in my opinion, this is a very valid question.

 

I did not mean to make a thread about that show. That's not the point. I was curious as to what peoples answers would be. I've seen so many people (including myself) go through a terrible relationship because we believed we were optimists... but in reality, we were masochists. And everyone was able to see that except for us.

[EricaH329]

The fact that you find any philosphical or intellectual value in anything related to that show is a harsh statement about the decline of our civilization.

 

Oh ok, I see. Your opinion of the show is going to determine the relevance of a very legitimate question that most likely applies (or has applied) to the majority of users on LS.

 

I am very much looking forward to other users opinions on this question.

[LittleTiger]

The fact that you find any philosphical or intellectual value in anything related to that show is a harsh statement about the decline of our civilization.

 

Actually, that show was based on a book by a woman who understands a lot about women and dating - especially 'grown up' women. It's very tongue in cheek and set in a ridiculously elite environment so it can't be taken seriously BUT some of the questions raised are quite pertinent to women dating in their 30s. Perhaps men don't have the right 'mindset' to understand it. It certainly does not suggest anything about the decline of our civilization.

 

Seems to me you're taking the show a little too seriously - that is, if you've ever watched it.

[Pyro]

LOL, why don't you read or enjoy something meaningful for once, cunt.

 

damn dude. Comments like this won't get you any positivee female attention.

 

That is a very good question in the OP.

[Surrealist]

Well if this thread even lives to see the morning with name calling like that above! Totally uncalled for dude!

 

Anyway its a legitimate question in and of itself, though the term 'masochist' may be a little irrelevant, meaning people may tolerate pain in a relationship but work through that pain, argument or fighting or whatever before deriving any further sexual or romantic pleasure.

 

However if the term merely means tolerating pain then I think it ends with abuse and / or cheating. Some of this may be forgiven if the offender is completely repentant and doesn't do it again, but repeated behaviour is out.

[EricaH329]

Well if this thread even lives to see the morning with name calling like that above! Totally uncalled for dude!

 

Anyway its a legitimate question in and of itself, though the term 'masochist' may be a little irrelevant, meaning people may tolerate pain in a relationship but work through that pain, argument or fighting or whatever before deriving any further sexual or romantic pleasure.

 

However if the term merely means tolerating pain then I think it ends with abuse and / or cheating. Some of this may be forgiven if the offender is completely repentant and doesn't do it again, but repeated behaviour is out.

 

That's a really interesting way to look at it. I didn't think about it like that.

 

I was thinking that the term 'masochist' was used to describe a person who remains in a relationship that is progressively getting worse because there is some weird enjoyment out of the pain they are receiving. It's difficult for me to explain.

 

Ok, there are a few threads going around LS that can give the perfect example. You know after you break up with someone, and you go out drinking and while you are drunk you think about your ex non stop and cry or feel sad or long for them? Even though you know that your doing yourself more harm than good, you continue to do it? Personally, I believe that's the perfect example of masochism. We've all been victims of it at some point (I am no one to judge, I hope that's not the way this is coming across).

 

I believe there is a point in a bad relationship where optimism goes out the window, and you are basically continuing the relationship for masochistic reasons.

 

I hope this post made sense, it's hard for me to explain it the way that i'm thinking it.

[Surrealist]

Yeah gluttons for punishment!

 

I see what you mean, people returning to a relationship even when abuse is present. Urgh its pretty sad when all said and done. Some people have some very strong religious views where they remain in those kinds of relationships which is just disgusting some of the things that occur. Also, some people, well probably more than some, are codependent which may partly explain it. Another thing is some people having been reared in an abusive environment tend to stick with what they know and is familiar to them. Being in a relationship sans any kind of abuse or conflict as such would be foreign and quite out of their comfort zone.

[Titania22]

I was thinking that the term 'masochist' was used to describe a person who remains in a relationship that is progressively getting worse because there is some weird enjoyment out of the pain they are receiving. It's difficult for me to explain.

 

Ok, there are a few threads going around LS that can give the perfect example. You know after you break up with someone, and you go out drinking and while you are drunk you think about your ex non stop and cry or feel sad or long for them? Even though you know that your doing yourself more harm than good, you continue to do it? Personally, I believe that's the perfect example of masochism. We've all been victims of it at some point (I am no one to judge, I hope that's not the way this is coming across).

 

I believe there is a point in a bad relationship where optimism goes out the window, and you are basically continuing the relationship for masochistic reasons.

 

I hope this post made sense, it's hard for me to explain it the way that i'm thinking it.

 

I think that the reason people go back isn't the addiction to pain. It is that they have formed an attachment to that person. When we try to break attachments to people we have been to awhile, it upsets the chemical cocktail in our brains, when we are near them again we feel better. The person didn't have to be abusive or anything, it's just attachment. The longer we are with someone the stronger the attachment. That is why when 1 partner dies after a long marriage, many times the other partner will die within 12months. They have been together so long, that their body can't adjust to the change. It has nothing to do with how loving the relationship was either, just individual body chemistry.

[EricaH329]

Yeah gluttons for punishment!

 

I see what you mean, people returning to a relationship even when abuse is present. Urgh its pretty sad when all said and done. Some people have some very strong religious views where they remain in those kinds of relationships which is just disgusting some of the things that occur. Also, some people, well probably more than some, are codependent which may partly explain it. Another thing is some people having been reared in an abusive environment tend to stick with what they know and is familiar to them. Being in a relationship sans any kind of abuse or conflict as such would be foreign and quite out of their comfort zone.

 

Hmmm, good thinking!! I see a consistent pattern in all of the scenarios you've listed. It basically comes down to comfort. Being comfortable with the pain it's bringing, for whatever reason.

 

About to go a bit off topic, but I think this is the perfect example of why a person should re-evaluate themselves after a break up. To figure out what made them stay for as long as they did. Whether they were the dumpee, or the dumper, doesn't matter. If there is comfort in pain, in any way shape or form, maybe that's something that needs to be brought to a persons attention.

 

This question definitely makes you think about a lot of different things.

[EricaH329]

I think that the reason people go back isn't the addiction to pain. It is that they have formed an attachment to that person. When we try to break attachments to people we have been to awhile, it upsets the chemical cocktail in our brains, when we are near them again we feel better. The person didn't have to be abusive or anything, it's just attachment. The longer we are with someone the stronger the attachment. That is why when 1 partner dies after a long marriage, many times the other partner will die within 12months. They have been together so long, that their body can't adjust to the change. It has nothing to do with how loving the relationship was either, just individual body chemistry.

 

Ok, I see what you are saying. But if this particular attachment is causing a person emotional grief (i.e. pain), does that make it alright? Does that mean that it's OK to continue the relationship because you are attached to a person? Also, that brings up the subject of co-dependency. Because you are so attached to this person, enough to where you will withstand any form of emotional pain being thrown at you, does that mean that you are doing it because you are unable to detach from this person? Or because you don't want to detach from this person? Which, inevitably, leads back to masochism. Doing something that's not good for you because you don't want it to stop.

Edited October 17, 2010 by EricaH329
Edit: Added more :)

[Titania22]

Ok, I see what you are saying. But if this particular attachment is causing a person emotional grief (i.e. pain), does that make it alright? Does that mean that it's OK to continue the relationship because you are attached to a person? Also, that brings up the subject of co-dependency. Because you are so attached to this person, enough to where you will withstand any form of emotional pain being thrown at you, does that mean that you are doing it because you are unable to detach from this person?

 

It doesn't make it alright to me. I got away from my pyschopathic husband after over a decade of trying, and went to hell while my brain chemicals were readjusting. During that period, I thought perhaps I had been with him too long and wouldn't survive. In fact I got so bad that I ended up having panic attacks for the first time in my life, and although I am anti drug use and medication, I ended up taking anti depressants for a while. If you knew how strongly I am against drugs, you might have some idea just how destroyed I had to have been to agree to that.

 

In less than 12months the worst of the hell was over, but I was still having panic attacks and still on medication.

 

And yes it was very co dependent.

 

The soppy story is just to illustrate I have experienced what I am talking about first hand. Getting away from him was the best thing I could ever have done, and my life is awesome now.

 

Another factor in al this is self esteem. I personally had to build enough self esteem and inner strength to get away from him. He fought to keep me his prisoner, and until I was capable of doing anything and everything to get away, it wasn't going to happen.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to stay in a bad situation. But I can also understand why some people choose to. For me though I would rather have been dead then stay.

 

I hope this helps your understanding.

[EricaH329]

It doesn't make it alright to me. I got away from my pyschopathic husband after over a decade of trying, and went to hell while my brain chemicals were readjusting. During that period, I thought perhaps I had been with him too long and wouldn't survive. In fact I got so bad that I ended up having panic attacks for the first time in my life, and although I am anti drug use and medication, I ended up taking anti depressants for a while. If you knew how strongly I am against drugs, you might have some idea just how destroyed I had to have been to agree to that.

 

In less than 12months the worst of the hell was over, but I was still having panic attacks and still on medication.

 

And yes it was very co dependent.

 

The soppy story is just to illustrate I have experienced what I am talking about first hand. Getting away from him was the best thing I could ever have done, and my life is awesome now.

 

Another factor in al this is self esteem. I personally had to build enough self esteem and inner strength to get away from him. He fought to keep me his prisoner, and until I was capable of doing anything and everything to get away, it wasn't going to happen.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to stay in a bad situation. But I can also understand why some people choose to. For me though I would rather have been dead then stay.

 

I hope this helps your understanding.

 

I am very sorry you had to go through all of that!! I truly hope you don't think that I was trying to insult you. That's so great to hear that not only were you able to get away, but you came out a better person! That's fantastic!

 

I guess all of those things (co-dependency, masochism, etc.) are all intertwined with eachother in some fashion. I totally get wanting to stay in an unhealthy relationship because you love the other person. Ive definitely been there, done that.

 

I guess the main question is: When does optimism run its course, and masochism takes its place? Is it all subjective? Or is there some universal time period?

[brainygirl]

So . . . to restate . . . Does the fact that there is some "pain" or "discomfort" in most relationships make those who know this and yet continue to pursue relationships masochists?

 

I don't think so. As animals that have evolved to be social, it is much more painful to be physically and emotionally isolated from the rest of humanity. We also face a very real drive to pass along out genetics, which can't be met without help.

 

So, no, pursuing relationships does not make us people who enjoy pain. Staying in bad, co-dependent, unhealthy relationships does not make us anything but mentally ill or trapped by someone who has the illusion of having power over us.

 

(and warloard, you're so lucky I was out all night and couldn't put that crap into my mysogonist quoted thread . . . I love it when people prove my point for me.

 

OP - so sorry you had to read that crap in response to your question, Sex in the City isn't my favorite show by a long shot, but no one should be insulted for what they enjoy)

[hydorclops]

I think the term masochism is confusing things here. The original usage refers to specific sexual practices. To say that it means "enjoying pain" isn't quite right.

 

Some people continue to do things that cause pain. They may even have the insight to recognize the cycle. Yet really they aren't subconsciously trying to create pain for themselves.

 

Some people seem to like living in dramatic chaos. I don't know much about that.

 

The best idea so far in this thread is the idea of attachment. It really is something that happens to people. And it's neutral. It's not inherently good or bad, but can be either.

 

It helps raise babies. And it reinforces friendships. But it also keeps people in bad, damaging relationships, despite the pain.

[EricaH329]

So . . . to restate . . . Does the fact that there is some "pain" or "discomfort" in most relationships make those who know this and yet continue to pursue relationships masochists?

 

I don't think so. As animals that have evolved to be social, it is much more painful to be physically and emotionally isolated from the rest of humanity. We also face a very real drive to pass along out genetics, which can't be met without help.

 

So, no, pursuing relationships does not make us people who enjoy pain. Staying in bad, co-dependent, unhealthy relationships does not make us anything but mentally ill or trapped by someone who has the illusion of having power over us.

 

Interesting!! So you don't believe in masochism in relationships? If you got a chance to read a previous post of mine, I stated an example of drinking while being upset about losing an ex, but continuing to do it even though it hurts you. What would you consider that? I am in no way trying to mock you, i'm genuinely curious to your opinion

 

In my opinion, if you stay with someone long after they've made you unhappy (to the point where you could be happier alone), that would be considered a form of masochism. I fully understand the power of a human beings love towards another, but if you don't love yourself enough to leave a relationship like that, it's sort of like you are punishing yourself. What do you think?

 

(and warloard, you're so lucky I was out all night and couldn't put that crap into my mysogonist quoted thread . . . I love it when people prove my point for me.

 

OP - so sorry you had to read that crap in response to your question, Sex in the City isn't my favorite show by a long shot, but no one should be insulted for what they enjoy)

 

Thank you Brainy That's very kind of you I see, and deal with, ignorance like that all the time at work, I find it humorous and quite sad

[EricaH329]

I think the term masochism is confusing things here. The original usage refers to specific sexual practices. To say that it means "enjoying pain" isn't quite right.

 

Some people continue to do things that cause pain. They may even have the insight to recognize the cycle. Yet really they aren't subconsciously trying to create pain for themselves.

 

Some people seem to like living in dramatic chaos. I don't know much about that.

 

The best idea so far in this thread is the idea of attachment. It really is something that happens to people. And it's neutral. It's not inherently good or bad, but can be either.

 

It helps raise babies. And it reinforces friendships. But it also keeps people in bad, damaging relationships, despite the pain.

 

I didn't even realize that masochism was a word used for sexual please I always thought of it as the second definition when looking it up, 'Pleasure in being abused or dominated: a taste for suffering'.

 

I totally get the attachment concept too. Maybe i'm looking at this from a completely different perspective. The relationship I had with my ex fiance was a terrible one for the last 6 or 7 months of the relationship. It became considerably worse. I stayed with him (through all of the emotional abuse he was putting me through) because I loved him. I was attached to him.

 

But I truly believe there came a point where everyone outside of the relationship was yelling at me to just stop this nonsense already. I had loved him more than myself and was allowing him to treat me in unfair ways. When thinking back on it, I believe I had become so used to the treatment that pain was actually starting to become some sort of comfort. It was the only thing I had to hang on to. And in order to feed that comfort, I had to stay in the terrible relationship. I believe that's a form of masochism.

[Woggle]

I don't think it is a good idea to look to any show for the facts of life but I will answer. Nothing in life is ever perfect and pain free including relationships but people who need frequent drama and pain to feel alive or feel passion are masochists in my view.

[brainygirl]

Interesting!! So you don't believe in masochism in relationships? If you got a chance to read a previous post of mine, I stated an example of drinking while being upset about losing an ex, but continuing to do it even though it hurts you. What would you consider that? I am in no way trying to mock you, i'm genuinely curious to your opinion

 

In my opinion, if you stay with someone long after they've made you unhappy (to the point where you could be happier alone), that would be considered a form of masochism. I fully understand the power of a human beings love towards another, but if you don't love yourself enough to leave a relationship like that, it's sort of like you are punishing yourself. What do you think?

 

 

 

Thank you Brainy That's very kind of you I see, and deal with, ignorance like that all the time at work, I find it humorous and quite sad

 

 

Masochism is taking pleasure in pain. Weather that is strictly sexual or not is open for some debate.

 

I do not believe that people go into relationships looking for the pain that goes along with them. People go into relationships because they feel that teh benefits that come from being in and pursuing relationships outweigh the potential for pain. Simple cost/benefit analysis.

 

I think that when you use the analogy of drinking, what you forget is that human beings are complex creatures. Yes, we know that drinking is bad for our health, but we may also be addicted, or the euphoria of the "high" is relief from the pain of the break up or stress. Some people drink because they are so dependent that they feel physical pain and even have seizures without it.

 

The sex and the city quote, like all things from that god-awful show, is an extreme statement based loosely on reality. In reality people pursue relationships even though they know there is the potential for heartache and pain. This does not mean that they enjoy heartache and pain. Only that they are willing to pay the price.

[hydorclops]

I didn't even realize that masochism was a word used for sexual please I always thought of it as the second definition when looking it up, 'Pleasure in being abused or dominated: a taste for suffering'.

 

I totally get the attachment concept too. Maybe i'm looking at this from a completely different perspective. The relationship I had with my ex fiance was a terrible one for the last 6 or 7 months of the relationship. It became considerably worse. I stayed with him (through all of the emotional abuse he was putting me through) because I loved him. I was attached to him.

 

But I truly believe there came a point where everyone outside of the relationship was yelling at me to just stop this nonsense already. I had loved him more than myself and was allowing him to treat me in unfair ways. When thinking back on it, I believe I had become so used to the treatment that pain was actually starting to become some sort of comfort. It was the only thing I had to hang on to. And in order to feed that comfort, I had to stay in the terrible relationship. I believe that's a form of masochism.

 

I don't think you're masochistic based on what you've written. I think you've argued yourself into tolerating pain. You don't secretly like it nor do you deserve it.

 

My idea is this: You developed an attachment. Perfectly normal. Like the other poster wrote, it's chemical, emotional, and primitive.

 

When you're higher cognitive powers identified the abuse and other bad aspects of your relationship, you entered a conflicted state.

 

Your inchoate emotions fought for continuing the relationship in service of the attachment. When your higher level brain tried to make sense of it, it used language and reason to come up with excuses like, "maybe he'll change. It's not really so bad..." etc.

 

But there is value in defeating an attachment to a bad relationship.

 

It sounds like you did things well in the end. You suffered, but you made good decisions.

 

Really, I don't think there is anything wrong with you. You don't like suffering. You didn't deserve it, and you fought your way clear.

[Star Gazer]

Yes, I am going to quote Carrie Bradshaw in Sex and the City. She raises a very good question and i'd like to hear everyones thoughts on this.

 

 

 

The bolded part is the question I find most interesting. What are your thoughts? How much pain will you endure before breaking it off?

 

Read the part where she says "it's a common belief..." That belief may be common, but doesn't make it RIGHT. It's that belief that leads to unhealthy relationships.

 

So, if you share that same belief, you're a masochist.

[EricaH329]

The sex and the city quote, like all things from that god-awful show, is an extreme statement based loosely on reality. In reality people pursue relationships even though they know there is the potential for heartache and pain. This does not mean that they enjoy heartache and pain. Only that they are willing to pay the price.

 

Read the part where she says "it's a common belief..." That belief may be common, but doesn't make it RIGHT. It's that belief that leads to unhealthy relationships.

 

So, if you share that same belief, you're a masochist.

 

I would like to make it clear that I do not watch that show for life advice. Nor do I apply anything from that show to my life. I watch it because it is entertaining to me. I heard her say this, and I thought it was an interesting (and debate-able) concept. Hence, the thread

 

I know that personally, when I enter into a relationship, being hurt is the farthest thing from my mind. I try to go into every relationship with an open mind. Sure, there will be times that it's hard... but that's life. Everything gets hard at times. But when it gets too hard, too emotionally destructive, if you stay for a long period of time, what does that mean?

 

It seems that the consensus is that you are in love, or too emotionally attached. But when something you find pleasure in (or once found pleasure in) turns into a non-stop pain fest, do you endure it? Or do you leave?

 

What does it mean if you decide to endure it? Are you dragging yourself through the mud? Or are you just looking for the light at the end of the tunnel? If there even is one?

 

I find this topic very interesting for some reason.

[EricaH329]

I don't think you're masochistic based on what you've written. I think you've argued yourself into tolerating pain. You don't secretly like it nor do you deserve it.

 

My idea is this: You developed an attachment. Perfectly normal. Like the other poster wrote, it's chemical, emotional, and primitive.

 

When you're higher cognitive powers identified the abuse and other bad aspects of your relationship, you entered a conflicted state.

 

Your inchoate emotions fought for continuing the relationship in service of the attachment. When your higher level brain tried to make sense of it, it used language and reason to come up with excuses like, "maybe he'll change. It's not really so bad..." etc.

 

But there is value in defeating an attachment to a bad relationship.

 

It sounds like you did things well in the end. You suffered, but you made good decisions.

 

Really, I don't think there is anything wrong with you. You don't like suffering. You didn't deserve it, and you fought your way clear.

 

So basically, there is no putting reason or labels on emotion? That makes sense. When you are attached to a person, your emotional side takes over. There isn't much room left for logic. But once your emotional health begins to deteriorate, logic starts kicking in? Sort of sounds like survival instincts. This is interesting

[tami-chan]

I think most us are OPTIMISTS. Taking "pleasure in pain" (emotional pain) is not "normal", it can mean someone has some psych issues. For the most part when we endure emotional pain in a relationship we do so because we hope that it will get better.