How do I know when I have done all that I can?

October 21, 2010

dreaming, he might meet your minimum expectations/needs. BUT you deserve better. You're not weak. You're taking care of your business AND your baby. You should be proud of yourself. It's time to think about your own happiness. ((hugs))

Thank you, I actually talked to someone today who helped me to realize that I am very conflict avoidant. I have a lot of trouble standing up for myself over the big issues but I'll pick on the garbage not being thrown out. We have discussed the sexual addiction a lot but he hasn't kept his promises and I haven't had the guts to throw him out because I can see having a conversation with my daughter when she is 6 or 7 asking me why she can only see Daddy on weekends (or whatever). Or why Daddy's newest hoochie girlfriend is mean to her. Or at 14 or so screaming at me that I am so mean and that she is going to live with her her Dad because he "let's me have sleepovers with my 19 year old boyfriend."

Or her turning out like my tennant who has no sense of what a relationship looks like at all aside from the fact that she knows she likes to get drunk and bring home a new one each weekend (despite the fact that two guys raped her one time and another time she woke up without her purse and didn't even know the address she was at.) She grew up with a single mom who didn't tie herself down to one guy.

I get scared because I see a lot of children of divorce grow up with added struggles and I know most of the kids that grew up in divorce situations say "it was fine" or that "kids adapt quickly" but really do they know what they missed out on?

My parents stayed together and my father was an absolute nightmare but I am not so sure that them getting divorced would have made anything better at all, I am pretty sure it would have made things worse.

I am scared to pick the greater of two evils so I just sit and wait for one side to become blindingly apparent. I gotta say though, I am really sick of living like this and it has pushed me really far.

I even ask if there is anything I can do to improve our marriage. There isn't much response, apparently he is fine as long as we don't have to talk about our marriage anymore. That really isn't an option at this point.

October 22, 2010

My went for an assessment today and the doctor told him there was no question that he has ADD. We had long suspected this (he did have a childhood diagnosis that was never followed up on) and our therapist recommended that he try a trial run of medication. Our family doctor suggested the same thing. He had also taken one of the long form brain health questionnaires that indicated it might be a trouble spot.

ADD has of course become a trendy diagnoses, so much so that folks think it is not even a real problem. ADD occurs in about 5% of the population and it is caused when not enough blood flow goes into the prefrontal cortex (the area responsible for our higher decision-making).

Today the specialist confirmed it and my husband started taking Dexidrin (sp?). The specialist went through a whole battery of items, including his social life and marriage. The specialist also said the ADD could be taking a major toll on both and said the he would see how much very soon. He told the dr. that he wasn't expecting to find "a miracle in a pill" and the Dr. said to him "Well you are going to get one. Most of my patients wish that they had had this years ago."

It is like living with a completely different husband. He is positive, organizing things, working faster, harder and being nicer all of the way around.

He is telling me he has real hope for our marriage and that he is so happy that he can focus on things. He has only been taking the stuff today!

I guess that we'll see if it lasts and how it will affect us. I hope he is not just all hopped up on some dope.

October 22, 2010

Thank you, I actually talked to someone today who helped me to realize that I am very conflict avoidant. I have a lot of trouble standing up for myself over the big issues but I'll pick on the garbage not being thrown out. We have discussed the sexual addiction a lot but he hasn't kept his promises and I haven't had the guts to throw him out because I can see having a conversation with my daughter when she is 6 or 7 asking me why she can only see Daddy on weekends (or whatever). Or why Daddy's newest hoochie girlfriend is mean to her. Or at 14 or so screaming at me that I am so mean and that she is going to live with her her Dad because he "let's me have sleepovers with my 19 year old boyfriend."

Or her turning out like my tennant who has no sense of what a relationship looks like at all aside from the fact that she knows she likes to get drunk and bring home a new one each weekend (despite the fact that two guys raped her one time and another time she woke up without her purse and didn't even know the address she was at.) She grew up with a single mom who didn't tie herself down to one guy.

I get scared because I see a lot of children of divorce grow up with added struggles ...
My parents stayed together and my father was an absolute nightmare but I am not so sure that them getting divorced would have made anything better at all...
I am scared to pick the greater of two evils

Are you a fortune teller? Can you see the future? IF someone asked you 10 years ago where you would be today, would you have answered "stuck in awful marriage"? How can you predict such negative future events regarding your daughter? There are PLENTY of well-adjusted people whose parents divorced. WHo is to say you won't meet a wonderful, caring, attentive, DECENT man down the road? You are completely cancelling out that possibility. You are saying "this is how it's gonna be" and if you WERE to separate, things would definitely be disasterous. That is negative thinking and totally unrealistic.

October 22, 2010

Are you a fortune teller? Can you see the future? IF someone asked you 10 years ago where you would be today, would you have answered "stuck in awful marriage"? How can you predict such negative future events regarding your daughter? There are PLENTY of well-adjusted people whose parents divorced. WHo is to say you won't meet a wonderful, caring, attentive, DECENT man down the road? You are completely cancelling out that possibility. You are saying "this is how it's gonna be" and if you WERE to separate, things would definitely be disasterous. That is negative thinking and totally unrealistic.

I was erely saying that the fear of such things was holding me back, not that I knew everything for sure. It may be negative thinking, but I do not think the little glimpses I was sharing are by far unrealistic. I also do not want to put my little girl at risk to have those kinds of experiences.

It may come down to it being the lesser of two evils.

October 22, 2010

I also do not want to put my little girl at risk to have those kinds of experiences.

She is EQUALLY at risk if she is raised her whole life under this shell of a marriage. Do you want her to grow up strong, with self-esteem, self-confidence, etc.? Of course you do. Do you want your husband to be her primary male role model??? All I am saying is that the outcome is UNKNOWN if you were to separate - but if things stay the same - and the odds are VERY high that they will - then you can bet there are countless negative risks to your daughter.

October 23, 2010

She is EQUALLY at risk if she is raised her whole life under this shell of a marriage. Do you want her to grow up strong, with self-esteem, self-confidence, etc.? Of course you do. Do you want your husband to be her primary male role model??? All I am saying is that the outcome is UNKNOWN if you were to separate - but if things stay the same - and the odds are VERY high that they will - then you can bet there are countless negative risks to your daughter.

Thank you for your reply and encouragement.

We are going to see how much better/worse things get now that my h is on medication that is helping him focus.

He has been on it for 2 days and he is a lot more positive and we both see a lot more hope for our marriage, his addictive triggering has gone down and he has been far better with our staff and business concerns. I wonder how many people don't even have a chance at full lives because of their neurological structure.

I actually tried one of his Dexidrine today (yes I know, bad) and it dramatically improved my work, focus, follow-through and drive I don't get into my specialist appointment until December though, which really sucks.

October 23, 2010

you poor thing! first of all, you sound like a really lovely person, and any man would be lucky to have you. from what i read, you keep a business and a family going, despite a husband who couldn't have done more to drag you down into a pit of depression.

look, honey (and i don't mean honey in a condescending way, but in a sympathetic way) this man is NO GOOD. it is easy as pie for anyone on the outside to see but hard as hell for you to see from your own blurry, involved vision. no offense. you are seeing a rosy past whilst staring a dim, black hole present in the face. you have been blinded by a hope that is an illusion. this man, your husband, is showing you in every way that he could not care less. he doesn't deserve the title of "husband" let alone "man" really. "ex husband" suits him best. he may be a good dad, but if he really is one, he can do that without dragging you through hell and wasting your years. you need to do what is best for you!

if i were you, i must say i would be so GONE by now. that said, i can't feel through the computer what you feel in your heart that compels you to stay against reason. do not let emotion erode your own happiness.

you have clearly done EVERYTHING you can. and that is exactly when you can leave with a clear conscience. the last thing on your list is to LEAVE. and should that be what wakes him up, so be it. but i will say, that result is unlikely because it sounds as if he does not love you, let alone himself.

i am terribly sorry and i do not mean to hurt you--but to give you the brutal honesty that i myself imagine in your position i would need, if not desire. if you love yourself, you will leave. and if you do not model self love as a parent, how do you expect your daughter to follow suit? do this for her, for you, and for every other possible reason (he has given you every one of them and you know it.) call a lawyer and call a therapist. get on your road to healing. happiness awaits you in the end. misery awaits you if you stay. i do hope you will choose HAPPINESS.

October 23, 2010

I find it it hard to get mad at someone if say they pissed you off 100% and now they only piss you off 80%. It just seems weird to dump them now instead of when they were at their worst. I even have massive trouble letting go of unproductive employees, even when they impact our margins.

this is like a heroin addict saying, "i find it really hard to quit using this drug that will eventually kill me, since i once used so much of it i wound up in the hospital, but now i use a lesser amount of it. it doesn't make sense to quit at this point when i didn't quit when i almost died."

it is still self destructive. just because you should have and didn't doesn't mean you should not now. you are still being hurt, and the cycle is going to repeat itself. this is self destructive rationalization.

October 23, 2010

you poor thing! first of all, you sound like a really lovely person, and any man would be lucky to have you. (Thank you for your compliment) from what i read, you keep a business and a family going, despite a husband who couldn't have done more to drag you down into a pit of depression.
look, honey (and i don't mean honey in a condescending way, but in a sympathetic way) this man is NO GOOD. it is easy as pie for anyone on the outside to see but hard as hell for you to see from your own blurry, involved vision. no offense. you are seeing a rosy past whilst staring a dim, black hole present in the face.
Yes it has often felt in the past year like my husband has died and and that this miserable, bitter man that looks a lot like him is living with me now.

you have been blinded by a hope that is an illusion. this man, your husband, is showing you in every way that he could not care less. Agreed, he would try a little bit and then quit very quickly.
He doesn't deserve the title of "husband" let alone "man" really. "ex husband" suits him best. he may be a good dad, but if he really is one, he can do that without dragging you through hell and wasting your years. you need to do what is best for you!
if i were you, i must say i would be so GONE by now. that said, i can't feel through the computer what you feel in your heart that compels you to stay against reason.
There have been a lot of factors:
1. I caught my father in an affair last year and I never thought that you could really truly recover a relationship after an infidelity but they seemed kind of better after a couple of months. Their relationship is actually better then it ever was.

2. I started searching everywhere for help with this and came across a ton of resources. We started seeing a specialist who said that there was a lot of hope and potential for our marriage. My h did not follow her treatment plan consistently.

3. Sexual Addiction specialists say to wait until a year into recovery to decide whether or not to end the marriage. Our year comes up on November 26th which is why this thread is popping up now.

4. I will do everything that I possibly can short of destroying my life to provide my daughter with a healthy, intact family. I do believe that family is the most important thing, even when it is hard as Hell. I believe that my husband is ill, and that you don't just throw away sick people. But that being said, I have recently discovered that his illness is making me ill and I don't want that for my daughter either.
The way I look at it, by leaving and divorcing I close the door for my daughter's parents to be together, by staying until it completely polarizes one way or the other I can be sure. Things may only improve 5% a month, but that means by next year that things would be 60% better. I am not saying that I will stick by this, but it is what has been keeping me here the last year.

5. I miss who my husband used to be and yesterday and today are the first days that I see the man that I married. He was positive, outgoing, focussed and driven. He was actually nice to be around and talk to. I have not seen that in months.

6. I NEED to be able to look in the mirror and be able to tell myself, "You did all that you could, you should not be ashamed that this relationship failed, you should be proud of yourself that you did everything possible to save it when others would have given up long before you, you exhausted every possibility."
do not let emotion erode your own h.appiness.
you have clearly done EVERYTHING you can.
I have two options and just over a month left. and that is exactly when you can leave with a clear conscience. the last thing on your list is to LEAVE.
That is the last thing on the list, but it is still on the list.and should that be what wakes him up, so be it. That won't be my problem by then.
but i will say, that result is unlikely because it sounds as if he does not love you, let alone himself.
i am terribly sorry and i do not mean to hurt you--but to give you the brutal honesty that i myself imagine in your position i would need, if not desire. I appreciate the honesty more than the sympathy.
if you love yourself, you will leave.
I have decided that I will leave in a dignified way and after I have exhausted every reasonable possibility
and if you do not model self love as a parent, how do you expect your daughter to follow suit? do this for her, for you, and for every other possible reason (he has given you every one of them and you know it.) call a lawyer and call a therapist. get on your road to healing. happiness awaits you in the end. misery awaits you if you stay. i do hope you will choose HAPPINESS. Thank you, I have firmly decided that if I notice my life going into the pit again, I will simply walk away. I will not go through another cheating escapade. It actually pisses me off in the Hope and Freedom for Sexual Addicts book that they shared an example of a man who "relapsed" and spent $50,000 on escorts after going through the recovery process with his wife and then when she filed for divorce that specialist was like "this is quite sad, I encourage spouses not to divorce in circumstances like these when the marriage can still be saved blah blah blah." This woman had ALREADY been through the recovery process and gone through all of that pain and then he slits her throat like that and the specialist expects her to STAY!?!?! I thought "how long does this woman have to be his stand-by therapist and walk him through this?"[/QUOTE]

So let me rephrase the question:

How does anyone know that they have done all that they can?
How far should one go to save a relationship?

October 23, 2010

this is like a heroin addict saying, "i find it really hard to quit using this drug that will eventually kill me, since i once used so much of it i wound up in the hospital, but now i use a lesser amount of it. it doesn't make sense to quit at this point when i didn't quit when i almost died."

it is still self destructive. just because you should have and didn't doesn't mean you should not now. you are still being hurt, and the cycle is going to repeat itself. this is self destructive rationalization.

You are right, thank you for pointing that out, I even allow clients to push me around with my business.

October 23, 2010

you poor thing! first of all, you sound like a really lovely person, and any man would be lucky to have you. (Thank you for your compliment) from what i read, you keep a business and a family going, despite a husband who couldn't have done more to drag you down into a pit of depression.
look, honey (and i don't mean honey in a condescending way, but in a sympathetic way) this man is NO GOOD. it is easy as pie for anyone on the outside to see but hard as hell for you to see from your own blurry, involved vision. no offense. you are seeing a rosy past whilst staring a dim, black hole present in the face.
Yes it has often felt in the past year like my husband has died and and that this miserable, bitter man that looks a lot like him is living with me now.

you have been blinded by a hope that is an illusion. this man, your husband, is showing you in every way that he could not care less. Agreed, he would try a little bit and then quit very quickly.
He doesn't deserve the title of "husband" let alone "man" really. "ex husband" suits him best. he may be a good dad, but if he really is one, he can do that without dragging you through hell and wasting your years. you need to do what is best for you!
if i were you, i must say i would be so GONE by now. that said, i can't feel through the computer what you feel in your heart that compels you to stay against reason.
There have been a lot of factors:
1. I caught my father in an affair last year and I never thought that you could really truly recover a relationship after an infidelity but they seemed kind of better after a couple of months. Their relationship is actually better then it ever was.

2. I started searching everywhere for help with this and came across a ton of resources. We started seeing a specialist who said that there was a lot of hope and potential for our marriage. My h did not follow her treatment plan consistently.

3. Sexual Addiction specialists say to wait until a year into recovery to decide whether or not to end the marriage. Our year comes up on November 26th which is why this thread is popping up now.

4. I will do everything that I possibly can short of destroying my life to provide my daughter with a healthy, intact family. I do believe that family is the most important thing, even when it is hard as Hell. I believe that my husband is ill, and that you don't just throw away sick people. But that being said, I have recently discovered that his illness is making me ill and I don't want that for my daughter either.
The way I look at it, by leaving and divorcing I close the door for my daughter's parents to be together, by staying until it completely polarizes one way or the other I can be sure. Things may only improve 5% a month, but that means by next year that things would be 60% better. I am not saying that I will stick by this, but it is what has been keeping me here the last year.

5. I miss who my husband used to be and yesterday and today are the first days that I see the man that I married. He was positive, outgoing, focussed and driven. He was actually nice to be around and talk to. I have not seen that in months.

6. I NEED to be able to look in the mirror and be able to tell myself, "You did all that you could, you should not be ashamed that this relationship failed, you should be proud of yourself that you did everything possible to save it when others would have given up long before you, you exhausted every possibility."
do not let emotion erode your own h.appiness.
you have clearly done EVERYTHING you can.
I have two options and just over a month left. and that is exactly when you can leave with a clear conscience. the last thing on your list is to LEAVE.
That is the last thing on the list, but it is still on the list.and should that be what wakes him up, so be it. That won't be my problem by then.
but i will say, that result is unlikely because it sounds as if he does not love you, let alone himself.
i am terribly sorry and i do not mean to hurt you--but to give you the brutal honesty that i myself imagine in your position i would need, if not desire. I appreciate the honesty more than the sympathy.
if you love yourself, you will leave.
I have decided that I will leave in a dignified way and after I have exhausted every reasonable possibility
and if you do not model self love as a parent, how do you expect your daughter to follow suit? do this for her, for you, and for every other possible reason (he has given you every one of them and you know it.) call a lawyer and call a therapist. get on your road to healing. happiness awaits you in the end. misery awaits you if you stay. i do hope you will choose HAPPINESS. Thank you, I have firmly decided that if I notice my life going into the pit again, I will simply walk away. I will not go through another cheating escapade. It actually pisses me off in the Hope and Freedom for Sexual Addicts book that they shared an example of a man who "relapsed" and spent $50,000 on escorts after going through the recovery process with his wife and then when she filed for divorce that specialist was like "this is quite sad, I encourage spouses not to divorce in circumstances like these when the marriage can still be saved blah blah blah." This woman had ALREADY been through the recovery process and gone through all of that pain and then he slits her throat like that and the specialist expects her to STAY!?!?! I thought "how long does this woman have to be his stand-by therapist and walk him through this?"[/QUOTE]

So let me rephrase the question:

How does anyone know that they have done all that they can?
How far should one go to save a relationship?

after reading through your response, i can well understand the reasons you have stayed, and it's a good sign that you can lay them out like that. you haven't just stayed without knowing why, or while entirely dismissing reason.
it sounds as if each of your reasons were facts or observations that suggested the potential of success; some were more promising than others; it sounds as if your husband's actions resulted in gradual release of the potential in each case (or most of them.) your therapist said there was hope and gave a course of treatment that would allow that hope to play out in reality. your husband neglected her recommendations. infidelity in your parents marriage brought to light whatever conflicts had consumed their union over time and gave them a motive to resolve their issues and transform themselves as a couple for the better. your husband's infidelity did not result in such transformation, but seemed to spur his halfheartedness and bring your relationship to a point of apparent impassibility. quite understandably you wanted your daughter to enjoy the emotional benefits and stability of an undivided family system, and you felt that simply leaving as a result of your own surmounting frustration without summoning all possible strength to stay and fight would be selfish and unfair to her. so you have mustered every ounce of strength, fortitude, patience, tolerance, and responsibility (all the while magnificently carrying out the regular duties as a mother, wife and business owner) and are just now coming to a place where you are questioning whether or not the fight for a family is in vain, and whether or not it is beginning to sacrifice the mother?
you call to mind the man you fell in love with and cannot make sense of the disintegration of him, and the person who has evidently replaced him. the polarity between one and the other caused you to question whether or not it is/was possible that the former man is/was still potentially there, and could be resuscitated.
you have been told to give it a year before making a final call; it has been just under a year at this point. you want to be certain you have done all you can, so that you can walk away knowing you did your best for your daughter.
the last two are the variables here, and the two before them the information to be analyzed.
the story you paraphrased of the woman whose husband invested $50,000 in escorts AFTER she had already been betrayed, forgiven him, and thrown herself into his recovery. i do not know that we can call it sad if she left him, considering that she may have been on the brink of mental collapse herself, and possibly regained any hope of life by leaving him. after all, everyone has a breaking point and the attitude of the book seems to disregard that fact. when a wife become her husband's messiah then she may be destroyed in the process--at which point there will be no "marriage" to save as there will be no "wife" as she once was--healthy, alive, and happy. both people should be happy and balance is the crux of any happy relationship. i think what you and i are both noticing here is that this poor woman had probably hit her breaking point; she had paid a horrible price for something she did not do, forgiven the ultimate betrayal, and now it was done to her again and it was too much. not too difficult to relate or sympathize with her actions. she had met the end of her human capacity for self sacrifice. such a boundary exists within all of us.

How does anyone know that they have done all that they can?
How far should one go to save a relationship?

i would say when you have met your breaking point. when the relationship is draining you and plaguing you, despite you wringing out the best of effort. if someone is punished long enough despite giving something their all, the fruitlessness of their efforts will starve their stamina, and if they continue against mental devastation this formula of reaping without sowing causes them, they may very well sacrifice themselves to the process. so you have to know yourself, and be true to that. do not listen to books, therapists, etc. listen to YOU. and be honest with yourself. you want passionately to save your family, but not at the cost of your own sanity. one should go as far as they can, and exhaust all options before throwing in the towel. it sounds as if you have done that. but only you can answer that question for yourself. this is a dangerous game because you are so emotionally invested your judgment may not be completely clear. i would almost suggest that you consider a separation to think it through. and i would most certainly suggest that you seek an objective, professional source of guidance, whether it be a religious counselor, or therapist, to help you access a clear understanding of where your boundaries exist. you have been so entangled here you have likely lost a good grasp of what you need, when you need it, and how much you can take. you needs have been blurred and overtaken by his.
i wish you the best and give you full respect for your strength.
EDIT: you mention for the past two days he has vastly improved. that is a good sign but is it possible he has sensed your growing intolerance towards him and is making a temporary effort to reinstate your commitment? i would not jump to conclusions one way or the other when his change is so short lived. time is the ultimate test of true change. will he revert back to his old ways once he feels you have dropped your guard and given way to believing in him again?

Edited October 23, 2010 by lucylove

October 24, 2010

after reading through your response, i can well understand the reasons you have stayed, and it's a good sign that you can lay them out like that. you haven't just stayed without knowing why, or while entirely dismissing reason.
it sounds as if each of your reasons were facts or observations that suggested the potential of success; some were more promising than others; it sounds as if your husband's actions resulted in gradual release of the potential in each case (or most of them.) your therapist said there was hope and gave a course of treatment that would allow that hope to play out in reality. your husband neglected her recommendations. infidelity in your parents marriage brought to light whatever conflicts had consumed their union over time and gave them a motive to resolve their issues and transform themselves as a couple for the better. your husband's infidelity did not result in such transformation, but seemed to spur his halfheartedness and bring your relationship to a point of apparent impassibility. quite understandably you wanted your daughter to enjoy the emotional benefits and stability of an undivided family system, and you felt that simply leaving as a result of your own surmounting frustration without summoning all possible strength to stay and fight would be selfish and unfair to her. so you have mustered every ounce of strength, fortitude, patience, tolerance, and responsibility (all the while magnificently carrying out the regular duties as a mother, wife and business owner) and are just now coming to a place where you are questioning whether or not the fight for a family is in vain, and whether or not it is beginning to sacrifice the mother?
you call to mind the man you fell in love with and cannot make sense of the disintegration of him, and the person who has evidently replaced him. the polarity between one and the other caused you to question whether or not it is/was possible that the former man is/was still potentially there, and could be resuscitated.
you have been told to give it a year before making a final call; it has been just under a year at this point. you want to be certain you have done all you can, so that you can walk away knowing you did your best for your daughter.
the last two are the variables here, and the two before them the information to be analyzed.
the story you paraphrased of the woman whose husband invested $50,000 in escorts AFTER she had already been betrayed, forgiven him, and thrown herself into his recovery. i do not know that we can call it sad if she left him, considering that she may have been on the brink of mental collapse herself, and possibly regained any hope of life by leaving him. after all, everyone has a breaking point and the attitude of the book seems to disregard that fact. when a wife become her husband's messiah then she may be destroyed in the process--at which point there will be no "marriage" to save as there will be no "wife" as she once was--healthy, alive, and happy. both people should be happy and balance is the crux of any happy relationship. i think what you and i are both noticing here is that this poor woman had probably hit her breaking point; she had paid a horrible price for something she did not do, forgiven the ultimate betrayal, and now it was done to her again and it was too much. not too difficult to relate or sympathize with her actions. she had met the end of her human capacity for self sacrifice. such a boundary exists within all of us.

How does anyone know that they have done all that they can?
How far should one go to save a relationship?

i would say when you have met your breaking point. when the relationship is draining you and plaguing you, despite you wringing out the best of effort. if someone is punished long enough despite giving something their all, the fruitlessness of their efforts will starve their stamina, and if they continue against mental devastation this formula of reaping without sowing causes them, they may very well sacrifice themselves to the process. so you have to know yourself, and be true to that. do not listen to books, therapists, etc. listen to YOU. and be honest with yourself. you want passionately to save your family, but not at the cost of your own sanity. one should go as far as they can, and exhaust all options before throwing in the towel. it sounds as if you have done that. but only you can answer that question for yourself. this is a dangerous game because you are so emotionally invested your judgment may not be completely clear. i would almost suggest that you consider a separation to think it through. and i would most certainly suggest that you seek an objective, professional source of guidance, whether it be a religious counselor, or therapist, to help you access a clear understanding of where your boundaries exist. you have been so entangled here you have likely lost a good grasp of what you need, when you need it, and how much you can take. you needs have been blurred and overtaken by his.
i wish you the best and give you full respect for your strength.
EDIT: you mention for the past two days he has vastly improved. that is a good sign but is it possible he has sensed your growing intolerance towards him and is making a temporary effort to reinstate your commitment? i would not jump to conclusions one way or the other when his change is so short lived. time is the ultimate test of true change. will he revert back to his old ways once he feels you have dropped your guard and given way to believing in him again?

Thank you so much lucylove, you have summed up everything I have been feeling/doubting in the above post. Thank you so much for reading and taking the time for trying to see my perspective and respecting me for my efforts. I can tell that a post like this took a lot of time and I really, really appreciate it. I will also consider the separation advice.

I have had a very tough time focusing all of my energy on trying to keep my family together, providing for them, moving us forward, trying to help us recover and helping my daughter in her developing years. I have been doing this despite my own emotional issues/immaturity as well.

I also know that 3 days is not enough time to gage a real change, I used to lie in wait for crumbs of affection from my husband until about 6 months ago. I was very emotionally dependent on him and his approval. I do not feel that way anymore. I will wait and see if he is going to continue a recovery effort and I am not reminding him of his committments. It has been almost a year and he should know what they are ("I forgot" is not going to cut it with me, it seems like he "forgot" he was married too). It is his choice about how seriously he wants to do his recovery and reconnect with me. I won't wait much longer to see progress and I will not tolerate backsliding.

Therapy has helped tremendously with my anxiety. The funny thing is I was scared of the dark since I was a child until about March. It would give me anxiety wondering what might be there etc. at the age of 27! I think a lot of the anxiety came from family trauma when I was young that became so set that I didn't outgrow it. When my husband left our family in March the layout of our rental unit left me facing nights alone where I would have to make my way through the dark (so that I didn't wake my daughter as I was staying in her room when I didn't know where my H had gone too). It gave me a lot of strength. I kind of thought, "enh, whatever you are in the dark, just try coming to get me, I've got bigger **** to deal with today, I am a single mom now." Being in the dark has not bothered me much since. Except maybe if I have to clean a strange place at night by myself. I used to have anxiety whenever I moved into a new place as well, it would take about 3 months to adjust. Last month we moved and I feel fine, in fact pretty positive about it and we live in a basement suite.

Another funny little thing. I used to have 4 dogs. They were excellent listeners, very well trained, really cute, four different personalities, they were a family: Mom, Dad & two daughters. I had never owned dogs before and had no idea how they were supposed to be trained but I would jut repeat myself and show them what I meant. I acted like they were supposed to listen and they did. When they were little I had to time them out a few times. I would get lots of compliments when I took them to the dog parks and all four would come back and sit and wait for me to leash them. Or they would all get in the van at the same time when told. It wasn't a crazy controlling relationship with them either, they had a lot of freedom and playtime, they just were expected to listen. I have seen lots of owners try to train their dog and they give them completely mixed messages. The dogs don't listen or their owner is too harsh (sometimes hitting etc). Sometimes they laugh off if the dog doesn't listen. Sometimes the dog is really scared of the owner and listens because they are too terrified to do anything else. Where I am going with this rambling is: my dogs taught me how to inspire my daughter, and that is by expecting a high standard from her and also by giving her freedom and treating her in a caring way. I think I need to take what I learned with my dogs and pass it onto my husband (I can't believe I wrote that).

Not just let anything slide, not be a tyrant with him, not laugh off him not listening to me and make my voice heard. Be someone that commands respect by the way I treat him. I won't sit there and cry when he doesn't work on his issues. I am not going to yell at him and make demands. I will not act disgusted by him. I will treat him like I expect a much higher standard from him, if he doesn't wish to provide me with that standard then I am quite sure there are others who will. I know that because I will treat others with that respect and I will not give anyone my dignity by lowering my own standard for my own behaviour. He can just go time out (leave) if he does not want to reciprocate the respect.

Thank you

October 24, 2010

I will treat him like I expect a much higher standard from him, if he doesn't wish to provide me with that standard then I am quite sure there are others who will. I know that because I will treat others with that respect and I will not give anyone my dignity by lowering my own standard for my own behaviour. He can just go time out (leave) if he does not want to reciprocate the respect.

You're 100% correct! If your husband can't give you respect and love, then he's not worth your love. Your happiness depends on you. You can change your life and be happy. I wish you all the best.

October 24, 2010

Thank you so much lucylove, you have summed up everything I have been feeling/doubting in the above post. Thank you so much for reading and taking the time for trying to see my perspective and respecting me for my efforts. I can tell that a post like this took a lot of time and I really, really appreciate it. I will also consider the separation advice.

I have had a very tough time focusing all of my energy on trying to keep my family together, providing for them, moving us forward, trying to help us recover and helping my daughter in her developing years. I have been doing this despite my own emotional issues/immaturity as well.

I also know that 3 days is not enough time to gage a real change, I used to lie in wait for crumbs of affection from my husband until about 6 months ago. I was very emotionally dependent on him and his approval. I do not feel that way anymore. I will wait and see if he is going to continue a recovery effort and I am not reminding him of his committments. It has been almost a year and he should know what they are ("I forgot" is not going to cut it with me, it seems like he "forgot" he was married too). It is his choice about how seriously he wants to do his recovery and reconnect with me. I won't wait much longer to see progress and I will not tolerate backsliding.

Therapy has helped tremendously with my anxiety. The funny thing is I was scared of the dark since I was a child until about March. It would give me anxiety wondering what might be there etc. at the age of 27! I think a lot of the anxiety came from family trauma when I was young that became so set that I didn't outgrow it. When my husband left our family in March the layout of our rental unit left me facing nights alone where I would have to make my way through the dark (so that I didn't wake my daughter as I was staying in her room when I didn't know where my H had gone too). It gave me a lot of strength. I kind of thought, "enh, whatever you are in the dark, just try coming to get me, I've got bigger **** to deal with today, I am a single mom now." Being in the dark has not bothered me much since. Except maybe if I have to clean a strange place at night by myself. I used to have anxiety whenever I moved into a new place as well, it would take about 3 months to adjust. Last month we moved and I feel fine, in fact pretty positive about it and we live in a basement suite.

Another funny little thing. I used to have 4 dogs. They were excellent listeners, very well trained, really cute, four different personalities, they were a family: Mom, Dad & two daughters. I had never owned dogs before and had no idea how they were supposed to be trained but I would jut repeat myself and show them what I meant. I acted like they were supposed to listen and they did. When they were little I had to time them out a few times. I would get lots of compliments when I took them to the dog parks and all four would come back and sit and wait for me to leash them. Or they would all get in the van at the same time when told. It wasn't a crazy controlling relationship with them either, they had a lot of freedom and playtime, they just were expected to listen. I have seen lots of owners try to train their dog and they give them completely mixed messages. The dogs don't listen or their owner is too harsh (sometimes hitting etc). Sometimes they laugh off if the dog doesn't listen. Sometimes the dog is really scared of the owner and listens because they are too terrified to do anything else. Where I am going with this rambling is: my dogs taught me how to inspire my daughter, and that is by expecting a high standard from her and also by giving her freedom and treating her in a caring way. I think I need to take what I learned with my dogs and pass it onto my husband (I can't believe I wrote that).

Not just let anything slide, not be a tyrant with him, not laugh off him not listening to me and make my voice heard. Be someone that commands respect by the way I treat him. I won't sit there and cry when he doesn't work on his issues. I am not going to yell at him and make demands. I will not act disgusted by him. I will treat him like I expect a much higher standard from him, if he doesn't wish to provide me with that standard then I am quite sure there are others who will. I know that because I will treat others with that respect and I will not give anyone my dignity by lowering my own standard for my own behaviour. He can just go time out (leave) if he does not want to reciprocate the respect.

Thank you

Dreamingoftigers,
i commend you on your strength once again
obviously overcoming your fear of the darkness was literal triumph and a symbolic one. the darkness is the unknown, the demon you can't see (as compared to the one revealed in daylight.) and you no longer avoid the unknown, or tremble at it; you face it head on for the sake of yourself and your daughter and this gives you great solace because you are no longer controlled by it. you are no longer confined to what you know; you can freely explore the unknown, because you trust your own strength to handle whatever comes your way. could it be that the darkness is like being alone after a divorce, raising a daughter without a husband? that was your unknown, and when it happened to you and you found yourself a single mother, the darkness was no longer intimidating. you realized you could do it. knowing that you do not need his approval, that you do not need him so desperately that you have to accept whatever treatment he gives you (even if it is demeaning, hurtful etc) must be very reviving to know. maybe as a child the darkness was something else for you; but yet it probably retained the same mental symbolism. it probably was the demon you didn't know versus the one you did.

your story about the dogs makes perfect sense and your experience is probably a wonderful model for almost any relationship. not that you should go around making people obey your every command--but like with dogs, people do obey your expectations of how they ought to treat you. you teach everyone you know how to treat you. people who are insecure believe that they need the approval of others, and therefore they feel that others should treat them however they would like. but you realize this is something you don't need; you know if you approve of yourself, those who are worth a toss will too. i am glad you plan to stand in your own power and maintain your dignity. you are no longer afraid of what will happen should the other person not approve of your dignity. you are not afraid of the dark. amazing!
i wish you the very best. please feel free to write me if you ever need to talk to someone.

October 25, 2010

Thanks again.

I think the darkness was abandoment. Twice (once as an infant and once at the age of 7) I was abandoned by two different "mothers." One of them actually was my mother. I was always hoping someone would take care of me (in the emotional sense). When I met my husband I was very depressed coming out of an emotionally abusive relationship. He listened and encouraged me to feel positive about myself. I drew self-esteem from being his girlfriend and sex partner. Later I drew it from being married because I thought no one would ever want to marry me so the fact that he was so enthusiastic about it was wonderful.

Then when he walked out in March it left me with all of my demons, I had no one left to emotionally dump on. I had to cope and carry on myself because I am responsible for my daughter. It was a very hard crash course. I don't dump on him anymore and do everything that I can do myself. I think that this also makes him feel unneeded. I think he drew some self-pride from taking care of me, but the depression I experienced as a result of his activities has left him pretty ashamed. But that doesn't mean that I should stop doing things that I am capable of. We seem to be more productive now. He has lost the dysfunctional role he had in this relationship to take care of all of my feelings 24/7 and he has lost a lot of the productivity role in our relationship too because I dragged myself off of my lazy butt. I get that he may feel kind of useless here, but he has other responsibilities that he is taking on now that he is finally able to do thanks to the medication. The plans we make are starting to work out now. :cool:

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