quankanne Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Gee, Midori. Don't you know all Texans are bigots? *ahem* Biggots? Braggarts possibly, but not all are biggots … the gene pool is too mixed for someone to effectively be a biggot because otherwise, you'd be slamming yourself
wideawake Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by Errol Christianity is one of the pushiest religions - trying to convert the world to their way of thinking and believing and worshipping by slapping everyone with their beliefs all the time and all over the world. There are Christian missionaries in every country trying to convert people. And why? I totally agree with Errol on this one. But than again, all you Christians look alike to me. I mean really come on, how many times have a couple of Buddhists or Moslems shown up on your door and tried to get you to listen to some 5 minutes spiel on how to reform your soul and buy your way into Nirvana? Nada? Zip? Zilch? Exactly. It's always some goof balls from something like the "The Crazy Seventh Day Perfect People for Christ Church" or something like that. And yes OBVIOUSLY not all Christians sects push as hard as others...but his point was still valid and... Whoops....hang on a sec, there's my bell. Looks like a couple of Conservative Jews outside my door with some phamplets. Be right back.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 all you Christians look alike to me. That you haven't taken the time or trouble to educate yourself about Christians and Christianity does not excuse you or Errol. What's your opinion on string theory, by the way? What would you say would be the solution of transportation issues in Florida? Opinions based on little or no knowledge are not worth a whole heck of a lot.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 ok - let's get some education here, then. which sects of christianity do promote conversion and why? most catholics i know do believe in the responsibility to convert, as do many of the fundamentalist christians. i would like to know why, so anyone who knows, please teach me. what is the doctrine and justification behind missionaries? door to door converters? i think what people are trying to say, and the generalizations are getting in the way, is that many people find conversion attempts aggressive, strange, and scary. (and, in many historical cases with natives here in canada, deeply problematic) a little education about the subject would do us all good, i expect.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 most catholics i know do believe in the responsibility to convert I've grown up Catholic, gone to Catholic schools and churches. I seem to befriend Catholics without knowing they are Catholic ahead of time. I suppose we have simlar world views or something - or maybe it's just that it's the largest denomination in Canada. We were not taught, asked, and certainly not required to convert. Other than a few Pentecostal Catholics, I've not run into any who thought it was their job to proselytize. So your experience is a microcosm. How many Catholics do you know?
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 actually, a lot. my dad was a priest, i grew up in an irish catholic community, attending a roman catholic church, and now i live in a predominantly french-catholic community. i have undergone about nine attempts at conversion myself. both my mom and my dad were sent on missions to mexico to help distribute the word, and a number of the catholic youth groups here fundraise to send new youth on exactly these kinds of missions. also, at university, i don't think i went a week without a christian group asking myself or one of my friends to attend a speacil meeting to get to know god better. i know you are very upset about the generalizations, but i think at base it is a legitimate question. some people, and some sect, do seem to encourage going out to get followers, where others eschew it. maybe i'm wrong; but i think a lot of people are saying they had quite negative expereinces with this sort of thing, and it's unlikely we were all delusional. and, of course my personal experience is a microcosm, as is yours. but there is a history of catholic missonaries, you know canadian history as well as i do, and a lot of anger from natives about these attempts. i belive them; i believe their rage; and i would not want to dismiss it by labelling it limited.
wideawake Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme all you Christians look alike to me. That you haven't taken the time or trouble to educate yourself about Christians and Christianity does not excuse you or Errol. What's your opinion on string theory, by the way? What would you say would be the solution of transportation issues in Florida? Opinions based on little or no knowledge are not worth a whole heck of a lot. Lighten up Francis. It was a joke, based around the old stereotypical racially derogatory notion that all African Americans looked alike. I’ll make sure to add some sort of disclaimer for you next time. *PLEASE NOTE: For the humor impaired, the following is an attempt at wit.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 my dad was a priest Right. i think a lot of people are saying they had quite negative expereinces with this sort of thing, and it's unlikely we were all delusional. Augh. Nobody said anybody was delusional. I am objecting to broad generalizations, is all. You, who yourself call 'fallacy' often, surely must acknowledge that to paint all Christians with the same brush is unfair at best. You want to find out about all the denominations? Go look them up and read their catechisms. I know for a fact that all, and likely most, do not advocate actively trying to convert people. To judge the actions and beliefs of all of Christianity by the ten Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who may have turned up at one's doorstep is not exactly a careful or well-thought-out examination of the issue.
cdn Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 It's my understanding that many religions engage missionaries, although this may not be the name used. This is true of Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons (I think), some Evangelical Protestants, Muslims, Messianic Jews, Hari Krishna, some Buddhists and, I think, Hindus. There are likely many others: this is just the few I know of (and I don't pretend to have an in-depth knowledge of this topic). It is probably more a function of where we live than anything else that accounts for the religion of those missionaries we encounter. I have personally been approached (at various times) by Jehovah's Witnesses, Hari Krishna, and Messianic Jews. I have never had a problem saying, "no, thanks." Religion is, in general, quite political, much as we might hope otherwise. To that end, most (all?) religions have a vested interest in gaining members... or at least in not losing them. Some pursue this goal more overtly, i.e., by recruiting non-believers, while others are more obliquely, i.e., decrying displays of any religion but their own.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I’ll make sure to add some sort of disclaimer for you next time Please do. Darlin', FYI people have come to this board and made such statements seriously. You could be one.
wideawake Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme most catholics i know do believe in the responsibility to convert than a few Pentecostal Catholics, I've not run into any who thought it was their job to proselytize. So your experience is a microcosm. How many Catholics do you know? Are you serious???? I grew up Catholic as well and I personally know DOZENS of Catholics that have gone on missions funded by many Catholic churchs to Mexico, Central and South America, Eastern Europe, etc... The pitch is, they go in and help set up some crappy ass housing facilities and then they spread the word. PLEASE! Roman Catholics probably have the worst history of any religion when it comes to conversion. How about the Crusades? How about the Spanish conversions in South and Central America? How about the way the church put people to death that didn't convert during the Spanish Inquisition. It goes on and on and on and on.
quankanne Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 LOL, I work with a whole ... potload ... of them! Interesting question about proselytizing and conversion on this thread. I'd never really given it a thought growing up, because in South Texas (where I grew up), you couldn't swing a cat by its tail without hitting a Catholic. But, having lived in East Texas these last 10 years, I've noticed that Catholics are pretty scarce in comparison to Protestants. East Texas falls in the Bible Belt region, after all. I've never known Catholics to go door to door asking residents if they've found Jesus (he was lost?) or if they've been saved, and I think it's kind of creepy when people do that. I understand the need to evangelize, to share the good news, but doing so when people ask to learn more, not shoving it down someone's throat because of a "need" to win converts. Which reminds me of a Margaret Cho comedy piece, in which she talks about her brother being a born-again Christian. He'd gone up to Margaret and tried to witness to her when she just wasn't ready to listen. I can't remember what exactly she told him, but he got mad at being rebuffed by his sister, and walked away from her, calling her a 'bxtch.' Kind of a sad way to bring the message across, wanting to witness to someone not interested in listening, then stomping off in a huff! I think as a whole, Catholics do their witnessing through their actions. They picket abortion clinics, they pray the rosary on the side of the road when the Roe V. Wade anniversary comes up, they participate in Walks for Life and other pro-life activities; they protest in support of social justice (think Martin Sheen and the protests against the Navy making Vieques their test ground for bombs), stuff like that. Going door to door or asking people point blank about their beliefs (and then arguing against them) is pretty much not done ...
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 ok, let's try this out. this is from the catholic enclyclopedia, so the info is not tainted by academics. part 3. part 3III. UTILITY AND OBJECT OF MISSION STATISTICS The object of mission statistics is to supply the reader with such information as will enable him to judge how far the work of the mission has been successful. The special points on which exact information is most desirable may be grouped under four heads: (1) Number of Christians; (2) Personnel of the Mission; (3) Mission Establishments; (4) Administrative Statistics. further: 1) Number of Christians In recording the number of Christians, a distinction should always be drawn between converted heathens and Christian settlers. While, in most missionary countries, the latter class may constitute so small a proportion of the totals as to be negligible, there are many countries in which the number is sufficiently large to create a false idea of the progress of the mission, if this distinction be not observed in the statistics. A distinction between Christians and catechumens is equally necessary, and under the former head none but the baptized should ever be included. By catechumens are to be understood only such heathens as are actually being instructed for baptism: as they constitute the harvest of the mission, they should never be excluded (as is now too often the case) from the statistics. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10375a.htm look, i was only looking for information. you made this weirdly angry. maybe every missionary trying to convert has been in error according to papal doctrine but i kind of doubt it. but i don't know. you set yourself up as an expert; i was just asking you a question. it happens. i just want to know why. it would be awesome if we could keep this civil. i know i am generalizing, but it seems to me there are too many missionaries, and too well-funded, to be operating outside of accepted practise.
wideawake Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme I’ll make sure to add some sort of disclaimer for you next time Please do. Darlin', FYI people have come to this board and made such statements seriously. You could be one. Hmmmmm...ok, point well taken. I'll keep that in mind. FYI - I'm not.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 How about the Crusades? I knew it ROTFL! Jenny, I didn't realize we were now getting into the missionary history of Catholicism. I thought Errol's rant was against the born-agains who are trying to foist their brand of evangelical Christianity upon the nation's legislators. We have segued to door-to-door proselytizers, which is where I thought we were and what I was discussing, to foreign missions. If anybody decides which point we're discussing, let me know and I'll address it. Otherwise, this is just getting silly. Back to Errol and his rant - not all Christians feel the need to 'shove their views' down peoples' throats. That was the point I have been addressing.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 i take your history point. was there, at some point, a doctrinal point that encouraged it? that was later officially repudiated in an encyclical? i don't know, but i am presuming that you do. i'm actually asking you a legitimate question that i would love to know the scholarly answer to. the documented conversion attempts in central and northern BC date up until the early 1930s-1940s.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 here we go! http://www.catholicmission.org/ Our Holy Father is convinced of the "urgency of missionary activity." In his encyclical, Redemptoris Missio (Mission of the Redeemer) , he states: "missionary activity specifically directed 'to the nations' (ad gentes) appears to be waning... a fact which must arouse concern among all who believe in Christ. For in the Church's history, missionary drive has always been a sign of vitality, just as its lessening is a sign of a crisis of faith." "I wish to invite the Church to renew her missionary commitment... For missionary activity renews the Church, revitalizes faith and Christian identity... Faith is strengthened when it is given to others!... God is opening before the Church the horizons of a humanity more fully prepared for the sowing of the Gospel... No believer in Christ, no institution of the Church can avoid this supreme duty: To proclaim Christ to all peoples." i don't know that i think it's wrong to convert, i just don't understand it and i don't like it personally. maybe i would if i understood it more, but that is not going to happen if we keep pretending it does not happen.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 here is a more official copy; from 1990. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_07121990_redemptoris-missio_en.html
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme all you Christians look alike to me. That you haven't taken the time or trouble to educate yourself about Christians and Christianity does not excuse you or Errol. What's your opinion on string theory, by the way? What would you say would be the solution of transportation issues in Florida? Opinions based on little or no knowledge are not worth a whole heck of a lot. LOL! I don't need a religious lecture or training or information and I most certainly do not need to be excused for my opinions! I don't need to know the name and mission of every single sect/group/sub-set of every christian religion (I'm going to keep saying it that way) to have an informed or valid opinion. And I am very VERY happy to be an American and NOT a Canadian! I'm very happy for you that you think Canadians are so far superior to everyone else. I've lived in various parts of the USA and attended many different christian churches. in every one of them there are procedures and guidelines and committees in place that are designed to convince others that christianity is the only way to believe, and that their particular view of christianity is the only true view. I've attended churches where this was not an issue too. (I love the bit from jenny with "harvest of the mission" in the text! - just love the phrasing, makes me think of harvesting organs from a person) BTW: I wasn't ranting at all - I was stating something that I have seen and that I have experience of and that is that the only religion that has attempted to push their beliefs down my throat is the christian religions. please note that I said religion's and not christians. it was the pushiness and the bickering and differences and arrogance of the different christian religions that drove me away and started me on researching the religions and convinced me to be agnostic! wideawake -- thanks -- your posts make a lot of sense and apparently some people need to have things spelled out for them in detail because they take everything so seriously.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 and Errol, if you read the link, you're actually correct in some cases. missionary conversion work is part of the catholic mandate. if we can finally stop talking about the evils of generalizations, it would be great to actually talk about conversion politics.
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 To get back to the original post -- I have heard a little bit about a christian movement but I really don't know any details as to who organized it is or what supporters there are. If it's well funded and organized they may have a website -- you can do a search for it. Even the churches within a religion can't agree on the acceptability of homosexuality as being natural and not a sin.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I'm very happy for you that you think Canadians are so far superior to everyone else Huh? the christian religions. please note that I said religion's and not christians Still a generalization. Still inaccurate. And yes, Jenny, the Pope and the Church are completely against birth control. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find Catholics who don't practise it. The Pope is, once again, NOT talking about door-to-door evangelism. However, if that's how you choose to interpret it, that's your prerogative. Might as well support a prejudice based on misapprehension by finding irrelevant passages. You guys go ahead with your Christian-bashing and have fun with it.
brashgal Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Not knowing what it is like to live in Canada I cannot comment but having lived in many areas and states in the US (Northeast, West, Midwest and now the Southwest) I find that there is an awful lot of proselytizing in the Southwest, specifically by 'Christians'. I have never been approached by a Jew or a Moslem (I lived in the Middle East) - have had some encounters with Hare Krishna and Moonies though. I'm thinking Errol that you have a different frame of reference that the Canadians don't relate to unless they've also lived in the Bible belt.
quankanne Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I have never been approached by a Jew, a Moslem (I lived in the Middle East) - have had some encounters with Hare Krishna and Moonies though you've got me curious now ... how DOES a Hare Krishna or a Moonie proselytize? anyone?
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