Michael T. Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Does anyone in here know of the ex-Gay movement ? It is a religious movement that wants to change people who are gay, lesbian or bi-sexual into "straights" in Christ. They have poster childs like John Paulk. Who is John Paulk ? A gay guy who led a gay life until he met a church person who told him he could change. He married a woman named Anne, had kids with her and became the poster child of the ex-gay movement. Stephen Bennett. who is he ? Another gay guy who led a gay life until he met church people who told him he could change. He went to church, met a woman and told her he was gay but wanted to change. They fell in love and got married and had kids. Now, he's the poster child of Exodus, a religious movement that helps gays go straight. Valerie Pegues. who is she ? A lesbian who led a lesbo life. getting with girls and all that. one day she went to church and got talked into changing. it is unknown if she married but she claimed to have been changed by God. I think if a gay guy or a lesbian finds a person of the opposite sex who accepts them and wants to be with them, thats cool. Heck, I'm bi and I am actively searching for an understanding girlfriend. But I think the person has to change for themselves, not for God and bot because religion says being gay, lesbian or bisexual is wrong. what do you think ?
dyermaker Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by Michael T. But I think the person has to change for themselves, not for God and bot because religion says being gay, lesbian or bisexual is wrong. They do. Anyways, I find it difficult to believe. When will people mind their own business?
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 It is a religious movement that wants to change people who are gay, lesbian or bi-sexual into "straights" in Christ. Anyone remember Jim Jones? Same principle in leadership. When will people mind their own business? Never. Especially not about religion. Christianity is one of the pushiest religions - trying to convert the world to their way of thinking and believing and worshipping by slapping everyone with their beliefs all the time and all over the world. There are Christian missionaries in every country trying to convert people. And why?
Arabess Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 John, Valerie and Stephen have as much right to their beliefs as you do. They are offering an 'alternative avenue' of help for those who wish to utilize it. No one else has to accept it.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Christianity is one of the pushiest religions There is NO religion known as 'Christianity'. It is tiresome to continually hear people speak of 'Christianity' as though it was a single sect. There are at least hundreds, and more likely thousands of distinct denominations, each with different beliefs and practices. The GREAT majority of Christian denominations are NOT fundamentalist and do NOT try to convert the world to their way of thinking and believing and worshipping. So do the rest of us a favour and use the phrase 'fundamentalist Christians' if you must rant.
yes Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 moimeme, i think many sects in addition to the fundamentalists try to convert anyone and everyone in their faith. am i wrong? -yes
quankanne Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 not for God good thought to ponder on. If someone is doing it to please someone – even if it's God – then one must wonder how valid that change is, because it doesn't come from inside the person who is/has changed. However, I can completely understand being inspired by God/the Spirit to make lifestyle changes so that they live by His standards and not their own ... there is a difference.
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme Christianity is one of the pushiest religions There is NO religion known as 'Christianity'. It is tiresome to continually hear people speak of 'Christianity' as though it was a single sect. There are at least hundreds, and more likely thousands of distinct denominations, each with different beliefs and practices. The GREAT majority of Christian denominations are NOT fundamentalist and do NOT try to convert the world to their way of thinking and believing and worshipping. So do the rest of us a favour and use the phrase 'fundamentalist Christians' if you must rant. I'm pretty sure that everyone knew what I meant when I wrote that. And no, I'm not going to refer to your definition of fundamentalist christians. As far as I am concerned, anyone that believes in Christ and the Bible is a Christian and I don't care how many thousands of different groups fall below that umbrella. Or would you rather I post an exhaustive list of each and every different nuance of belief and the names of all of the different groups and practices and list all of the ways in which each group, sect, whatever you want to call it, 'preach at' or 'witness to' others to 'enlighten' them to their God. If you are so tired of me not thinking or talking like you then quit reading my posts! It seems like you think it is up to you to correct people who don't use your method of expression. I'll stand by what I said the way I said it - the same way that you stand by your way. I've had too many different types of Christians try to influence me to believe their way and in their God. I dated a Catholic once who said I would have to go through a formal conversion to be with her and her family invited me to dinner so they could 'pray over me' to help me. She wasn't the first catholic I've met like that. Judiasm is the same way - convert to being a jew before marriage. And then there are the Jehova's witnesses and the protestent and baptists missionaries who travel all over the globe. I have been to many Christian churches and they all have some type of outreach program to 'spread the word.' I could go on and find more examples. I could have said Christian Faith, but that is not how I meant it. There are many people of the Christian Faith who do not belong to any organized religion but quietly practice on their own. I mean to convey an organized group of people who seek to convert others and that is why I said 'religion' instead of 'faith'. I get so tired of explaining myself to those who cannot understand that individual expression is just that - individual.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 actually, in Judaism, conversion takes a great deal of work and a lot of rejection. it is NOT a tenet of the Jewish faith to seek converts nor to proselytze; if someone wants to be admitted they must work long and hard for it, and there is no guarantee he or she will be successful. i'm not sure about getting married to a non-believer, however, within the synagogue, but i'll check it out. i do know that the majority of converts convert after marriage, after long exposure to the tenets and practises, rather than 'in order to' get married.
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Thanks, the few people I know who married into a jewish family went through extensive training and were formally converted before marriage so I thought that might be the way it was supposed to be. Thanks for clearing that up. There are many couples of many faiths who do not have to convert according to their religion and many people who hold their faith to themselves but do not practice their religion with their spouse. I just wanted to let whoever is reading this know that I understand that not all religions or all people who practice an organized religion fall into the must be converted category, or won't have a relationship/marriage outside their own faith. I understand that not all Christians (no matter what church they belong to) go out and try to convert everyone they see either!
midori Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by jenny actually, in Judaism, conversion takes a great deal of work and a lot of rejection. it is NOT a tenet of the Jewish faith to seek converts nor to proselytze; if someone wants to be admitted they must work long and hard for it, and there is no guarantee he or she will be successful. i'm not sure about getting married to a non-believer, however, within the synagogue, but i'll check it out. i do know that the majority of converts convert after marriage, after long exposure to the tenets and practises, rather than 'in order to' get married. Really? I know at least five people who converted to Judaism specifically to marry a Jewish partner. I know several others who didn't convert themselves, but explicitly agreed to allow their children to be raised exclusively as Jewish.
midori Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by Errol Christianity is one of the pushiest religions - trying to convert the world to their way of thinking and believing and worshipping by slapping everyone with their beliefs all the time and all over the world. There are Christian missionaries in every country trying to convert people. And why? I'm a Christian. I don't engage in any of the behaviors you've attributed to Christians. I find that gross generalizations are easily disproven, and thus detract from valid points one might otherwise make.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 i should double check. i'm just parroting statistics and generalizations i got from conversion classes, which admittedly have an interest in screening out the even slightly unsure - the idea is that one should *ideally* do this for individual reasons, and without the timeline pressure of a wedding. it may depend on the orthodox to reformer status of the branch too. anyway, i'll ask.
Errol Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by midori I'm a Christian. I don't engage in any of the behaviors you've attributed to Christians. I find that gross generalizations are easily disproven, and thus detract from valid points one might otherwise make. Read my second post. Also, I have never had a jew come up to me and try to make me believe their way. Never knocked on my door with tracts, or approached me in airports or public places trying to give me information. I don't know of any other religious practice, other than Christian, that pushes to send people around the world and into various neighborhoods for the sole purpose of 'teaching' the inhabitants about God. I did not say that every Christian was that way, or that every little church or organization within the whole of christianity was that way. Read my second post. I do think that the christian religions, overall, are the pushiest. That is not to say that every christian is pushy or practices these behaviors. I'm talking about organized practices based on a christian faith. Are people so narrow-minded that they think one person is a total reflection of a group and cannot make the distinction? That smacks of racism or bigotry. I don't know what word would describe that in the context of religion. I do see and hear about different churches - lots of mainstream churches of the christion following - that preach that homosexuality is wrong and are trying to find ways to combat it and change it and get those who practice it to repent. I don't know what, if anyting, the jewish religions (are there more than one - or is the jewish organized religion the same for all?) are doing in support of or in defense against homosexuality.
Arabess Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by moimeme There are at least hundreds, and more likely thousands of distinct denominations, each with different beliefs and practices. But they all have one common denominator....his name is Jesus.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Errol, this is a good question and one i am struggling with at the moment. orthodox judaism believes homosexuality is wrong; i think for reformed Jews it's not a big deal, but for anyone seeking conversion must agree to the concept that homosexuality is wrong, which i obviously do not. let me hunt around for info today for groups within Judaism that support same-sex marriage, and groups that cannot arguments aginst the torah's standing on homosexuality. i'm curious myself, now that you mention it. i don't know about which sects of christianity promote conversion, but i do quite like the distaste for it within judaism, as far as i understand it. have you ever seen the show curb your enthusiasm? there is one in which larry david interrupts a baptism by accident, and then goes ranting against the need to convert that i think you would greatly enjoy.
jenny Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 back to the original post, michael, you sound a lot like a poster we used to have named wolverine. i'm sorry if it is you, and you are still having a lot of identity problems. i would say you can make that choice, to either be gay or not gay, but i hope it is not horrible for you. if you feel your sexuality is natural and biologically driven, then denying it is going to make your life very painful and unhappy - i hope you have a lot of support.
cdn Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 But they all have one common denominator....his name is Jesus. With all due respect, this is a little like saying all men are the same because of their common denominator of a penis. There are many "Christian" relaigions and they are incredibly diverse. So diverse, in fact, that some refuse to acknowledge the Christianity of others! I agree that when we over-generalize, other, valid points are lost. And, I believe other religions are every bit as interested in promoting their own agendas. By the way, I love your new signature/saying! :-)
Arabess Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 With all due respect, this is a little like saying all men are the same because of their common denominator of a penis. by cdn They aren't even CLOSE to being all the same....but they DO have the one thing in common! HAHA!
cdn Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Touche, Arabess! (Where can I get an accent for my 'e'?)
Arabess Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 I guess you'll have to buy a French keyboard.... Thanks for noticing the quote. Dyer found the name of the person who orginally said it. I received it in email and loved it.
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Where can I get an accent for my 'e'? I went to a French dictionary and got a bunch of accented words that I steal from 'cause I'm too lazy to learn the keyboard shortcuts. Here ya go: naïf naît naïveté nancéien moi-même ë théâtre théière théologie voilà goût ERROL: You'd save a lot of grief if you'd just stick 'many' or 'some' in front of your generalizations, thus demonstrating that you do indeed believe that not all people you are generalizing about do the thing you're about to complain about. Or, you could write numerous posts defending yourself and slanging others who take issue with generalizations. I try very hard to be sure that I don't use generalizations; if someone calls me on one, I'll certainly clarify.
midori Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Originally posted by Errol Read my second post. Also, I have never had a jew come up to me and try to make me believe their way. Never knocked on my door with tracts, or approached me in airports or public places trying to give me information. I don't know of any other religious practice, other than Christian, that pushes to send people around the world and into various neighborhoods for the sole purpose of 'teaching' the inhabitants about God. Just because you don't know of any other religions that seek to convert doesn't mean anything other than that's been your experience, Errol. You happen to live in a country in which Christianity is the dominant religion -- more Christians in the US than any other religious group, and so it shouldn't be surprising to you that the majority of religious folk you encounter are Christians. Undeniable, of course, that Christianity has an objective of universality. I think that gets confused, by Christians and non-Christians alike, as meaning that Christians are supposed to go out and actively convert other people. It does not mean that, according to what I've been taught and what I believe. It means that Christianity should be accessible to all people -- regardless of caste, race, or sex. Yes: many Christians (not all nor even a majority) think they're supposed to go out and actively convert. No: it's not inherent to the religion. It's funny, a friend's husband is a cultural/ethnic Jew, but definitely not practicing. He brings up religion, and the superiority of the Jewish faith (to which he doesn't adhere) to Christianity in almost every conversation I've had with him. It's very strange, because I rarely discuss my religious views, and am even less likely to do so if I know the person I'm talking to isn't religious. Needless to say I never start such conversations with him, and to be honest I don't really participate because I don't feel like he's interested in what I have to say, merely wishing to "prove" his points and establish his superiority (he knows I'm not Jewish). Yet he says he's not religious. Very weird, even hyopcritical. I don't, however, extrapolate from my experiences with this guy to all Jews, religious or otherwise. I think he's an atypical screwball. Speaking of Judaism and conversion, there are minor Jewish sects that promote the holiness of different Jewish rabbis (in some cases called "rebbes"). My favorite bagel shop in New York is run by members of such a sect, and whenever I go in there I see donation boxes for whatever it is they're trying to accomplish, and publish this now-deceased rebbe's (sp?) picture. Here's a link that explains it better than I can (the movement, not the bagel shop). http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,33626,00.html I do think that the christian religions, overall, are the pushiest. That is not to say that every christian is pushy or practices these behaviors. I'm talking about organized practices based on a christian faith. Are people so narrow-minded that they think one person is a total reflection of a group and cannot make the distinction? That smacks of racism or bigotry. I don't know what word would describe that in the context of religion. I'm not trying to be hard on you Errol, but it sure sounds to me like you're the one who's being narrow-minded. You make a disclaimer that you don't think that every Christian necessarily engages in the behavior that you object to, but in making that disclaimer you imply that the default is the evangelical Christian. Which is simply not the case. Well, hey, for all I know maybe it is in Texas. ... We could always discuss regional differences instead of religious ones!
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 Gee, Midori. Don't you know all Texans are bigots? (ducks and runs far and fast, giggling like a fiend)
moimeme Posted March 1, 2004 Posted March 1, 2004 So, Errol, how does it feel? Being the subject of a fallacious generalization, I mean.
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