Telling the truth

[Star_Bright]

I was reading on the "how to leave our spouses" thread where people were debating about how honest people in an affair should be with their spouses when they decide to leave the marriage for the affair partner.

 

I've been thinking about "the truth" and "honesty" a lot lately; I guess because if I had always thought about it then I never would have become involved with ex MM/ the affair and opened myself up to all of this pain. One of the things that made me step away from ex MM was that I saw/heard how he would lie to his wife AND me, and actually even his kids (about his whereabouts and about how long he was moving out or why-- well, for that one he was either lying to them or to me). It started to get so muddled and confusing that I was just done with it; I was tired of living a lie and being part of deception. Even I was lying because I would make up excuses to my friends about where I was and what I was doing (since they didn't know about ex MM) and I was lying by omission to most of my family, who never would have accepted ex MM and who thought I was single all this time I was his OW.

 

It just makes me feel yucky and I'm at the point where I just never want to lie anymore, ever. Is that really realistic? How honest should we be, how much of the truth do we have to put out there?

 

I read this quote in a book that really made me stop and think: "The Truth is a hard apple to catch, and a hard apple to throw."

 

So... if I were the spouses in the "how to leave the spouses" thread, I know I would want to be told everything. It would make it easier on me to know my spouse was having an affair with our friend, because then it would make a lot more sense and I could think, "Well, if he is capable of doing that to me and wants to go off with her, then fine, I deserve better" instead of "What did I do wrong, why doesn't he want me anymore?"

 

It's easy to think about how much of the truth I would want if I were the BS (or OW, which I was). But I think it's a lot harder to actually live it and to be honest with everyone. Like, if I fall in love again and the guy asks about my history, do I hide the fact that I was an OW to my married, older, former boss? Wouldn't that make most guys go running and screaming away from me? What about my parents...I doubt they'd have reason to ask now, but what if they did, do I lie to them? What if ex MM's wife comes to talk to me about what really went on with us? (I highly doubt she would, but, theoretically.) What if my co-workers or former co-workers who have caught wind about us ask me straight up (a much more likely scenario)... or even my friends who have been asking, "What's been up with you, where have you been?"

 

Does anyone understand what I'm asking or am I just crazy? I would like to always be honest and truthful (not lying and not participating in lies/ helping other people lie) so that I stay out of this kind of pain and heartache. But I've already made some really stupid decisions I don't feel like disclosing to the world. I want to be true to myself and honest to everyone, but I struggle with the degree of honesty. For instance if my friend asks if a dress looks good on her and it looks horrible... I would tell my sister because we are that close, and because I would honestly want to know, but, my friend... it would hurt her feelings. So how honest is too honest?! Is there anyone that is always honest no matter what? In some ways I think it would be a better world... we would know exactly who someone was and what they were doing and how they thought, instead of worrying about who to trust and whether stories don't add up etc. Sorry if this is too philosophical of a question, ha ha, it's just been on my mind.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Star_Bright

[desertIslandCactus]

'It's not you .. it's me ... I just don't want to be married anymore' ..

[2sure]

Great post. And not a crazy question. In fact, thats why I am still here.

Like you, ,my past experiences have shown me what NOT to do..lol,

 

So, I want to explore what TO do. Not just in intimate relationships, but in my entire life. For me. How to live and be a person of Integrity. For me, that word fits better than "honesty"...because I am not talking about telling white lies( no, that doesnt make you look fat/ sorry, I am busy that night) I am talking about the big stuff.

 

I have come to realize that Life is Decisions more than anything else. More than words. More than intentions. Its making hard decisions and acting on them.

 

I think in the past...I either did not make conscious decisions or justified a bad choice simply because it was the easier route.

 

So, I am making a conscious effort to realize that NOT deciding IS deciding and also to understand that the HARD choices , for me, are often only hard because they are the right ones and require me to act on them.

 

I want to be able to answer you know. I want to be able to say...even though I continue to make mistakes...that I didnt harm anyone in making my choices, lol...that I come by issues honestly.

[desertIslandCactus]

 

 

 

It just makes me feel yucky and I'm at the point where I just never want to lie anymore, ever. Is that really realistic? How honest should we be, how much of the truth do we have to put out there?

 

 

 

Like, if I fall in love again and the guy asks about my history, do I hide the fact that I was an OW to my married, older, former boss? Wouldn't that make most guys go running and screaming away from me? What about my parents...I doubt they'd have reason to ask now, but what if they did, do I lie to them? What if ex MM's wife comes to talk to me about what really went on with us? (I highly doubt she would, but, theoretically.) What if my co-workers or former co-workers who have caught wind about us ask me straight up (a much more likely scenario)... or even my friends who have been asking, "What's been up with you, where have you been?"

 

QUOTE]

 

Yes, I would have rather known the truth from the beginning.. Practically everyone suspected but me.. I had to go through months of discovery.

 

It's always good to tell the truth. But in difficult situations, I believe in waiting until the occasion arises..

 

IF it were to come up with your family. IF the BS asked. After you form a close attachment to a future would-be husband.

[UntoldStory]

I keep drafting responses to this and then deleting them, which probably means I am too conflicted about the question of honesty vs integrity to have anything helpful to say. I guess I'll just say, I hear ya.

[Star_Bright]

Great post. And not a crazy question. In fact, thats why I am still here.

Like you, ,my past experiences have shown me what NOT to do..lol,

 

So, I want to explore what TO do. Not just in intimate relationships, but in my entire life. For me. How to live and be a person of Integrity. For me, that word fits better than "honesty"...because I am not talking about telling white lies( no, that doesnt make you look fat/ sorry, I am busy that night) I am talking about the big stuff.

 

I have come to realize that Life is Decisions more than anything else. More than words. More than intentions. Its making hard decisions and acting on them.

 

I think in the past...I either did not make conscious decisions or justified a bad choice simply because it was the easier route.

 

So, I am making a conscious effort to realize that NOT deciding IS deciding and also to understand that the HARD choices , for me, are often only hard because they are the right ones and require me to act on them.

 

I want to be able to answer you know. I want to be able to say...even though I continue to make mistakes...that I didnt harm anyone in making my choices, lol...that I come by issues honestly.

 

This is a really good post; I totally agree.

 

Integrity. I haven't had much of it. I look back and think, why wasn't I the kind of person who just wouldn't date a married man? Instead, I'm the kind of person who deliberately "dated" a married man, whose wife I worked with, just a few doors down. And now I wonder why I'm hurt!!!!

 

I'm not trying to beat myself up. I guess if I berate myself for my past actions, I'll never become happier. I'll just stay stuck either with MM or with regret and self-hate. What I'm trying to figure out is my character and how to improve it.

 

HOW do I go from someone willing to do this to someone not willing to do anything that goes against my morals?

 

Maybe it wasn't part of my morals before. I'm in a career that involves truth-twisting. Some people, such as MM and the company where I worked before, overdo it more than others, such as, luckily the company where I work now. But it's part of the game; nothing works if everyone tells the truth.

 

So.

 

Maybe I became numb to it and thought, well, sometimes I have to not disclose things to get what I want. And from there it becomes easy to justify outright lying. Or I am just the kind of person that outright lies. Because I do think that by helping him outright lie, it's the same thing as if I personally lied. It's not like I was an innocent bystander with no obligation to help someone know the truth. It's not like I was a rat who was going to go tell on someone. All I had to do was not participate, and she wouldn't have been lied to, at least not with my help, and *I* wouldn't have been lied to. Why didn't I think about that sooner???

 

Now every time someone asks me why I changed jobs, I inwardly cringe. I'm continuing the lie-by-omission but how in the world could I come out and say the truth to everyone; my professional reputation would be ruined, perhaps deservedly so, but still, that is not something I am willing to do to myself. But it's just a conscious reminder that because I participated in this secret thing, I have to keep keeping it a secret, which has present and future effects.

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling, I'm glad someone understands!! I worry that I am just not a good person because my actions show what kind of a person I am, and how do I just change into a good person and do the right actions overnight? I don't mean "good" as in religious or morally superior etc., I just mean someone who does good things that help myself and others, not hurt myself and others.

[Star_Bright]

I keep drafting responses to this and then deleting them, which probably means I am too conflicted about the question of honesty vs integrity to have anything helpful to say. I guess I'll just say, I hear ya.

 

Glad it's not just me. Ha ha.

[woinlove]

I adhere to the principle that if the person I'm with would be upset that I hadn't told them (if, say, they found out later) then I tell them. Even a divorcing spouse who finds out a year later that they were deceived will be upset that their X lied through the separation and divorce.

 

If you don't say anything, you don't have to see them hurt. Also, their hurt can be more concentrated in time, if they are told openly. However, dealing with deception and suspicions and then the realization much later that it was all lies, can accumulate hurt that will take even longer to heal. I think most people that lie don't want to see the pain they cause. They also don't want to see the concentration of pain and care less if the person continues to hurt for years after they are gone.

Edited October 13, 2010 by woinlove
typo

[2sure]

oh wow...completely relating here.

My job, my career, what I am best at...is completely based on selling lies, implications, and "truth" with omissions, all of which help some and hurt others.

 

I am struggling, really struggling...with reconciling it. Because I cant. That part of my life affects every other part of my life.

So, how? Dont know yet .

 

But one thing thats good. I'm "jaded" I know...both by my life experiences, choices and my profession. But thats OK.

Being jaded is in part recognizing the truth...whatever it is...without all the details covering it up...recognizing it, being OK with it, and being able to deal with it straight up. I actually am able to embrace the truth, the truth about myself and others, and be happy to have it.

 

Guess its a start.

[desertIslandCactus]

My job relies on always telling the truth, and getting projects right.

 

Many years ago I worked for a company, where my boss would tell me to tell a caller that he was out of the office. I would instead tell those that he wasn't available.. I don't think my employer respected me any less for it..

[Star_Bright]

oh wow...completely relating here.

My job, my career, what I am best at...is completely based on selling lies, implications, and "truth" with omissions, all of which help some and hurt others.

 

I am struggling, really struggling...with reconciling it. Because I cant. That part of my life affects every other part of my life.

So, how? Dont know yet .

 

But one thing thats good. I'm "jaded" I know...both by my life experiences, choices and my profession. But thats OK.

Being jaded is in part recognizing the truth...whatever it is...without all the details covering it up...recognizing it, being OK with it, and being able to deal with it straight up. I actually am able to embrace the truth, the truth about myself and others, and be happy to have it.

 

Guess its a start.

 

Exactly. I would like to change careers but I've put so much money and experience into this one... and really wouldn't make nearly so much money at any other job. (Why is that making money and deception or shallowness usually go together? )So for now I'm trying to figure out how to be honest and have integrity in my current profession... I know there are people who do it! They probably don't make nearly as much money as the rest ... and my current job doesn't pay me nearly as much as ex MM did... but it involves less deception and sleazyness, so, for now, it's a start, as you say, and I think a good trade-off!

[Confused4Now]

So, I want to explore what TO do. Not just in intimate relationships, but in my entire life. For me. How to live and be a person of Integrity. For me, that word fits better than "honesty"...because I am not talking about telling white lies( no, that doesnt make you look fat/ sorry, I am busy that night) I am talking about the big stuff.

 

I have come to realize that Life is Decisions more than anything else. More than words. More than intentions. Its making hard decisions and acting on them.

For me I've come to realize it all comes down a person's values. You can't make the right decisions if you don't have the right values or fixed values.

[2sure]

I am in advertising and politics. I am a single mother now. I have no experience in anything else and get paid pretty good bucks. Oh yes, I am conflicted.

[Star_Bright]

I am in advertising and politics. I am a single mother now. I have no experience in anything else and get paid pretty good bucks. Oh yes, I am conflicted.

 

I'm in the law. When ex MM's wife found out about us and it was pretty obvious I was going to lose my job, I went away and tried to figure out what else I could do for money. The only thing I love that I'm good at is writing, as in, creative writing, ha ha, and that of course makes no money. I'm an idealist at heart--what kind of an idealist is an OW?, but I am--so I thought of other things like working with kids, teaching, working for a non-profit... none of which make any money. I hate that I have to care about money but I'm independent and don't want to be taken care of by a man (my mom was a totally dependent SAHM who is now miserable with my dad), so, yeah, I'm big-time conflicted. I realized that if I didn't care about money, I could actually love my job... but yes I do care about money. I don't need loads and loads of it (and am no longer making loads and loads of it) but I need enough to keep up with my current obligations and not feel dependent and not have to worry about money... I worry enough as it is, ha ha. So, it was back to the law for me.

 

So I totally hear you. Totally. Sometimes I wonder if I initially hooked up with ex MM because something inside me hates my career and wanted to sabotage it. (That something inside me did a pretty good job but alas I still have my career.) What stinks is that I'm good at it. I once read a Starbucks cup that said sometimes being good at something that's not your passion is a curse, because the better you are at it, the more time and energy you end up spending on it instead of your passion. That Starbucks cup is the story of my life. I want to focus on writing which is my passion but how in the world do I do that and make money? I'm trying to find a good balance between writing in my spare time (now that I'm not always worrying about ex MM!) and working at my job, which luckily doesn't involve as much deceit and trickery as my last job with ex MM! But the more time I spend writing, the less time I want to spend in the law.

[KarmasTestDummy]

Let's just say when i was the bs I did everything in my power to seek out the truth right down to the most painful details, but even once I got them, it only fueled my question of why wasn't I good enough. My father says the same thing about my mother who left him for the OM. Even almost 20 years later and knowing my mom was compulsive and irrational and had an addictive nature he still wonders what HE did wrong. Usually the answer is u did NOTHING wrong, and the problem lies in the ws. The truth only helped me stay angry long enough to get past it. For that I'm appreciative.

[Ellin]

I think with telling the truth we have to balance the possible consequences with the importance of doing it, just like in the example you gave about telling your friend she looks awful.

 

I believe therefore it is NOT ALWAYS right or good to be completely honest.

[MorningCoffee]

I think with telling the truth we have to balance the possible consequences with the importance of doing it, just like in the example you gave about telling your friend she looks awful.

 

I believe therefore it is NOT ALWAYS right or good to be completely honest.

 

Agree with this. Also, I think my dating, relationship and sexual history are all my own private information so I get to decide exactly what, and to whom, I reveal any of it. No one is automatically entitled to it. I can place a boundary around it that is appropriate and decide to whom I open the gate. Moreover, I decide when, and how to present it.

[LucreziaBorgia]

I will always appreciate exH's honesty with me. We had been married seven years and he came to me and admitted that he had feelings for an old girlfriend and wanted to explore those feelings. He also said that he loved me and didn't want to lose me. So, we tried the open marriage thing. It wasn't easy to hear, I did hurt from it, and it didn't work in the long run but at least he was honest about what led him to want that.

 

I believe that is the reason we are still so close to this day. We didn't work out as H and W but that honesty and respect for the friendship base we did have is what keeps us so close even though we are now divorced. We still love each other - not romantically, but we did preserve the most important part of the love we did have.

 

Honesty is a painful thing sometimes, and it cuts both ways: sometimes an OP would be no more comfortable with the absolute truth than the BS would. The truth is not always 'either/or' sometimes it is 'both' and that can be painful for all involved.

[NoIDidn't]

Honesty is a painful thing sometimes, and it cuts both ways: sometimes an OP would be no more comfortable with the absolute truth than the BS would. The truth is not always 'either/or' sometimes it is 'both' and that can be painful for all involved.

 

So true. Reminds me of the phrase "brutal honesty". Sometimes it really can be. Not an excuse for lying, but certainly a consideration for telling the truth with care.

 

I'm a little wishy-washy on the implications of telling the absolute truth in careers, though. My former job required me to oversell and over-promise many things, while still keeping the gist of a contract met. I don't think absolute truth works in some professions. And I don't think that makes those in those professions liars or people with less integrity (including politicians, I am relatively close to many, for them "its complicated" comes to mind).

 

I don't believe in trickle truth though. Sure, my sexual history is mine. And its bigger than I would want to admit immediately to a romantic interest. But I'm not going to have sex with them first and THEN tell them something they would have thought it important to know. Trickle truth is telling someone you aren't a virgin but neglecting to tell them until they had reason to confront you that you were once a prostitute. They might not judge you for having done so, but they should have known that before they slept with you. I would tell my sexual history (the basics, not the details) if I was ready to have sex with a new person, not after the deed was already done. That's not fair to them, IMO.

 

Telling the truth is simple and complex. I try to stay out of situations that complicate it in personal relationships as much as possible.

[jj33]

Star Ive thought about that a lot. Would I tell someone. I think when you first get out of an A it feels like the biggest relatioship of your life and you cant imagine withholding such an important part of your past with the next person (or the next "right" person).

 

But I think we give it more importance when we are still processing it than it deserves in the story of our lives as it relates to a new partner.

 

If you look back on your dating history, are you going to go through "the list" and tell your new partner about EVERYONE you ever dated, the mistakes, the boys you kissed when you were 15, the (if you ever had any) drunken one night stands, all of the heartbreaks, all of the people you ever dated?

 

Most people dont want to hear all that. They want the "highlights" of your romantic life before them. Each one doesnt get a chapter in the story.

 

I have referred to xMM by saying I was seeing someone I loved but it was complicated and it didnt work out. When asked why I just say he wasnt ready to remarry. The rest is irrelevant. The fact is he wasnt ready to leave his W and marry me.

 

If someone asked me point blank did I ever sleep with a married man I would have to say yes. And if you had asked me closer to the time that I ended it I would have said yes I HAVE to tell them. But just like the guy who broke my heart when I was 19, MM has become just another piece of my past as far as my romantic history would ever be told to someone new.

 

Total total disclosure of anything can be too much. You tell someone what is important to your relationshpi with them. If you still feel strongly about the impact it had on your relationships and the confusion or hurt or anger is lingering when you meet someone new, then perhaps you tell him. But otherwise? Hes just another guy you knew. We all make mistakes. You dont have to walk around with a scarlet A on your head for the rest of your life. So you dont have to tell anyone unless you want to.

[Star_Bright]

Thanks everyone.

 

I have just been feeling depressed because I would like to live a happy life but I'm not even sure where to start. Probably stop drinking. Focus more on work. Try to get back in touch with my old friends, even my family. I look back at what I gave up for ex MM-- the truth being just one of those things-- and I feel like such a fool. It's like the relationship sucked me dry of everything except crazy up and down feelings for ex MM. I really feel like I was swooped up in a plane for a long plane ride and then tossed out to freefall back to earth and landed all broken and smashed up. I KNOW I willingly went on the ride but when I look back I think, who was that girl?! It doesn't seem like my life. !

 

Thinking about living honestly makes me feel like I'm moving forward and making more positive choices. But it's just a start really... I feel like such a mess, like Humpty Dumpty... can't even start putting the pieces together again because there are so many of them. I know I can't just sit here and wallow in self-pity and go out drinking, but it's hard to take any ACTION with all of these feelings. Maybe I'm just like ex MM, ha ha. All feelings and talk and no action.

[MorningCoffee]

I have referred to xMM by saying I was seeing someone I loved but it was complicated and it didnt work out. When asked why I just say he wasnt ready to remarry. The rest is irrelevant. The fact is he wasnt ready to leave his W and marry me.

 

This. Exactly.

[2sure]

Star Bright...

 

You are awesome and will not only be fine, but remarkable.

[Star_Bright]

Star Bright...

 

You are awesome and will not only be fine, but remarkable.

 

Aww thanks 2sure. I wish I could believe that right now. I guess I have really done some damage on myself because I don't ever remember being this unhappy.

[Confused4Now]

Thinking about living honestly makes me feel like I'm moving forward and making more positive choices. But it's just a start really... I feel like such a mess, like Humpty Dumpty... can't even start putting the pieces together again because there are so many of them. I know I can't just sit here and wallow in self-pity and go out drinking, but it's hard to take any ACTION with all of these feelings. Maybe I'm just like ex MM, ha ha. All feelings and talk and no action.

Wow this was so me...right after I left my marriage. I was holding so tight to the idea of being with my xMW. Trust me it does get better. You will dig yourself out of the hole and you'll be able to put yourself back together again. I did.....Focus on moving forward and before you know it your there. I do agree with the all talk and no action. I use to talk all the time and there was no action. Finally I stopped talking and took action. Good luck.....