Men complaining about women being difficult to understand - really?

[sagetalk]

 

1. Precisely. I don't know how it's possible to carry on a relationship when one cannot let the other person know that something he/she did was the cause of unhappiness.

 

2. I'm not quite sure how to deal with them other than talking about it.

 

1. What if you're unhappy because of you're own messed up thoughts rather than his actions? You will never have a healthy LTR with that kind of attitude, men hate it. Men will tolerate alot of stuff from attractive women, but conversations that are all about "it's all your fault I'm unhappy" is not one of them. You wouldn't let him do it (you would probably break up with him if he did), so why should he let you?

 

2. Deal with it by coming to him with a two-way conversation without accusations or finger pointing. If you want to save your relationship, you have no other choice. If you continue to communicate with him like this, things are going to grow cold between both of you.

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to show you how many men think and feel about this issue.

[theBrokenMuse]

1. What if you're unhappy because of you're own messed up thoughts rather than his actions?

Are you saying that the average person is incapable of distinguishing if another person's actions bothers them or not? I mean in some instances it might be a case of it all being in a person's head however we we simply can't live our lives in a healthy manner if we start taking it for granted that any grievance we form about another person may be some sort of internal trickery and should be treated as such. We have to deal with reality as best as we can perceive it.

[sagetalk]

 

For someone who preaches 'not attacking/accusing', sagetalk, you've done a fair bit more than I have on this thread. At least I don't accuse people of 'treating someone like crap', when all they've done is ask how to better discuss issues in their relationship. I am not blaming anyone, and I'd imagine "What do you think WE can do to solve this problem?", as I gave in my prior example, makes it very clear that I think the onus to solve it is on BOTH of us.

 

 

I'm trying to help you. If I didn't care, I would laugh at the screen and not say anything to you knowing that is not how you communicate with guys successfully. The "We" is just code talk, you feel it is his fault and you aren't being honest with him by saying "We". You don't think you need to do anything other than blame him and tell him to straighten up and start making you happy.

 

If he isn't lying, cheating, or abusing you, then your unhappiness is probably partially your own fault. No one is perfect, look at what you are doing in the relationship and your own life, and express your feelings to him weaponless and without blaming. The response you get will be world's different.

[sagetalk]

Are you saying that the average person is incapable of distinguishing if another person's actions bothers them or not?

 

No, I'm saying that the average person is incapable of understanding why that person's actions bother them in the first place. We aren't talking about cheating, lying, or abuse, this seems to be typical relationship woes which can be overcome.

 

Pride tells us to blame others always, wisdom (humility) tells us to blame ourselves first, then look at others after you make sure that you are not the one who is truly to blame.

 

Remember this golden rule in relationships:

 

A man's biggest weakness is lust, a woman's biggest weakness is pride.

[theBrokenMuse]

No, I'm saying that the average person is incapable of understanding why that person's actions bother them in the first place.

So when things bother you, you don't have any clue as to why? I know many people aren't all that introspective or observant but I think in many cases we aren't utterly clueless about why certain actions bother us.

 

We aren't talking about cheating, lying, or abuse, this seems to be typical relationship woes which can be overcome.

Or they may not depending on how much people are willing to discuss the issue like adults and resolve it rather than avoid unpleasantries and allow these feelings to fester.

 

Pride tells us to blame others always, wisdom (humility) tells us to blame ourselves first

Firstly, humility=/=wisdom. Secondly, I see no reason why we should blame ourselves for the actions of others. Why should anyone take responsibility for another grown adult's behavior?

[sagetalk]

 

1. So when things bother you, you don't have any clue as to why? I know many people aren't all that introspective or observant but I think in many cases we aren't utterly clueless about why certain actions bother us.

 

 

2. Or they may not depending on how much people are willing to discuss the issue like adults and resolve it rather than avoid unpleasantries and allow these feelings to fester.

 

 

3. Firstly, humility=/=wisdom. Secondly, I see no reason why we should blame ourselves for the actions of others. Why should anyone take responsibility for another grown adult's behavior?

 

1. I'm sure the thought comes to the mind easily "It's their fault" (pride). But just because you think it's their fault, or feel it's their fault, doesn't mean you have a clue, or that it's true.

 

2. Discussions yes, but you cannot have a discussion when you have already made up your mind who's fault it is without even talking with them about it (pride).

 

3. Humility is wise, it's not necessarily equal. I used it to show contrast to pride and wisdom to show a sound mind. You should never blame others when your own negative reaction to their actions is not their fault. How do you find out who's fault it is, discuss it with them. That is what communication is all about.

 

If you have already made up your mind as to who is at fault, true discussion will never happen.

[that girl]

If he isn't lying, cheating, or abusing you, then your unhappiness is probably partially your own fault.

What? It takes more than honesty, fidelity and not abusing someone to have a happy relationship.

 

Sagetalk you are way too eager to blame the OP.

 

You seem to be telling her that she should put up with whatever is bothering her and not even give the guy the chance to solve what could be a minor issue. Relationships implode when people can't discuss what is bothering them.

 

Remember this golden rule in relationships:

 

A man's biggest weakness is lust, a woman's biggest weakness is pride.

What? You and several other posters have said that women should never bring up issues they might have with a man because he won't be able to handle it, he'll just shut down.

 

I don't think this is true of healthy, considerate men, but by your own estimation men can't handle being told there is a problem because of pride. Now suddenly women's pride is the issue?

 

If you have already made up your mind as to who is at fault, true discussion will never happen.

Not all conflicts are about fault. A few pages ago I mentioned the problem of someone not calling. That isn't necessarily a matter of fault- the other person might not know that a call would be appreciated. That is why you should tell them in a non-aggressive way "Hey, I was worried when you didn't come home at the time you normally do, please call next time you are going to be late."

[BobSacamento]

I think the thing that complicates things is that women will often act the same way if their grandmother dies or if you eat the last oreo.

[theBrokenMuse]

1. I'm sure the thought comes to the mind easily "It's their fault" (pride). But just because you think it's their fault, or feel it's their fault, doesn't mean you have a clue, or that it's true.

 

It's like a solipsist who insists that since we have no way of knowing definitively anything other than our own brain's existence we have no reason to even attempt to understand the universe around us because it could all be a fantasy. What you seem to be advocating is abandoning the attempt to use logic to come to any useful conclusions because one's understanding of things could possibly be too faulty or skewed to be trusted - this is a completely unhelpful musing because we can only work within the perimeters of what we perceive to be reality... we might be wrong but ultimately trying to logically sort out our problems (much like using the scientific method) has shown to produce demonstrable results.

 

2. Discussions yes, but you cannot have a discussion when you have already made up your mind who's fault it is without even talking with them about it (pride).

Well, once again this is where logic comes in. Some things are no brainers when it comes to blame such as leaving the toilet seat up all the time or going out and blowing one's paycheck on scratch off tickets. Then there are the relationship issues that have a larger dynamic that encompasses a lot of minor issues and is much more tricky. Those often have more than one facet to them and plenty of blame to go around but there are going to be plenty of times when you need to deal with the former.

 

3. Humility is wise, it's not necessarily equal.

That wasn't the equal sign. It was a does not equate sign. In other words you were trying to mesh together two completely separate ideas as if they were interchangeable.

 

You should never blame others when your own negative reaction to their actions is not their fault. How do you find out who's fault it is, discuss it with them. That is what communication is all about.

It's true that we are not responsible for other people's emotions but our actions don't exist in a vacuum and therefore they can and will affect those around us.

Edited October 14, 2010 by theBrokenMuse

[Els]

1. What if you're unhappy because of you're own messed up thoughts rather than his actions? You will never have a healthy LTR with that kind of attitude, men hate it. Men will tolerate alot of stuff from attractive women, but conversations that are all about "it's all your fault I'm unhappy" is not one of them. You wouldn't let him do it (you would probably break up with him if he did), so why should he let you?

 

2. Deal with it by coming to him with a two-way conversation without accusations or finger pointing. If you want to save your relationship, you have no other choice. If you continue to communicate with him like this, things are going to grow cold between both of you.

 

I'm not trying to be mean, I'm trying to show you how many men think and feel about this issue.

 

I'm trying to help you. If I didn't care, I would laugh at the screen and not say anything to you knowing that is not how you communicate with guys successfully. The "We" is just code talk, you feel it is his fault and you aren't being honest with him by saying "We". You don't think you need to do anything other than blame him and tell him to straighten up and start making you happy.

 

If he isn't lying, cheating, or abusing you, then your unhappiness is probably partially your own fault. No one is perfect, look at what you are doing in the relationship and your own life, and express your feelings to him weaponless and without blaming. The response you get will be world's different.

 

Firstly, I'm glad that you care, but I believe you need to take your own advice - no matter how good your intentions are, if your approach begins with hostility/accusation/attacks, people won't be inclined to listen to you. I am sure you realize that your approach in this thread begun with immediate blame being placed on my part. I find that very ironic.

 

As for the rest of your post, we are not going to get any further until you can explain to me how you, alone, of all the posters here, managed to construe my words as 'placing ALL the fault on him'. When I say 'we', I mean we. I really am not sure how that can turn into: "Yeah you said 'we' but you're really thinking 'you' (no, I'm not) and the 'we' is just a clever decoy". Isn't that the sort of complicated bullshyt men often complain about? "Why can't she take my words for face value instead of reading between the lines into things that don't exist?" Well, that's how I feel now when I read your post. I am really not that complicated - I mean what I say.

 

I also don't believe my guy has a habit of construing what I say to mean something else entirely. He's just not like that, and I think it would be a very unhealthy R if he did. So no, I don't think that's the issue. And yes, I have always accepted that both of us can be at fault sometimes in the R. He knows that. Sometimes I ask him, "What can I do to fix this?" It doesn't make a difference. Really.

 

If you still feel you have a point, for the second time, please give me a concrete example how you would talk about an issue in your R. Pretend your gf has a male friend who is evidently trying to get with her but she doesn't know it, and you feel that she needs to know his intentions and that you feel uncomfortable if she hangs out a lot with him. What would you say?

[Els]

So when things bother you, you don't have any clue as to why? I know many people aren't all that introspective or observant but I think in many cases we aren't utterly clueless about why certain actions bother us.

 

Yes, this is the issue. I am completely certain about why a certain action bothers me, and I tend to delve into it wholesale with the other person - almost like a theses. Sometimes I think that just isn't good for human relations. Perhaps, sometimes simply showing someone that you are sad when they do x is better than sitting them through a whole logical argument of how and why x affects me and our relationship.

[brainygirl]

Its because aside from a few people (myself being one of them) no one opperates logically.I happen to be a very literal, very linear person. Because of this, I tend to piss off a lot of people because I will say what I think.

 

Guys don't like a girl who can give five reasons why that thing he just suggested was a bad idea, they want a girl who batts her lashes and giggles when he makes a funny.

[TaurusTerp]

Its because aside from a few people (myself being one of them) no one opperates logically.I happen to be a very literal, very linear person. Because of this, I tend to piss off a lot of people because I will say what I think.

 

Guys don't like a girl who can give five reasons why that thing he just suggested was a bad idea, they want a girl who batts her lashes and giggles when he makes a funny.

 

[Els]

Its because aside from a few people (myself being one of them) no one opperates logically.I happen to be a very literal, very linear person. Because of this, I tend to piss off a lot of people because I will say what I think.

 

Guys don't like a girl who can give five reasons why that thing he just suggested was a bad idea, they want a girl who batts her lashes and giggles when he makes a funny.

 

To be fair to my bf, I really don't think this is the case with him (even though I'm sure some men are that way). He has said before point-blank that one of the major things that attracts him is intelligence - real intelligence, not the 'intelligent enough to get my jokes' sort of intelligence. I believe him.

 

But I think that all humans also operate based on emotions/psyche/etc instead of solely logic.

[sagetalk]

 

1. I am completely certain about why a certain action bothers me, and I tend to delve into it wholesale with the other person - almost like a theses.

 

1. And what are you certain of, that it is his fault entirely that it bothers you? I know, that's what this entire posting has been about. I give up, at least I tried.

 

Do whatever you want, be unsuccessful in communicating with guys, and then blame it on guys because they are dumb or bad communicators. It couldn't possible be that you are messing it up just as badly.

[theBrokenMuse]

I give up, at least I tried.

She asked you twice for a concrete example of how you deal with a problematic relationship issue... why have you declined?

[Els]

1. And what are you certain of, that it is his fault entirely that it bothers you? I know, that's what this entire posting has been about. I give up, at least I tried.

 

Do whatever you want, be unsuccessful in communicating with guys, and then blame it on guys because they are dumb or bad communicators. It couldn't possible be that you are messing it up just as badly.

 

 

Uh, what??? That was certainly not what I said. If you read my previous post, that is definitely not what I am thinking either. I'm not sure why you're so insistent on blaming me for 'blaming the guy for being dumb/a bad communicator', when it is evident to everyone except you that I am in no way doing that. You seem to have it fixed in your head that it is 'my fault' for 'thinking it is always his fault' despite my assertions that this is not the case (and I believe I have a much better grasp of what I'm thinking than you do, really).

 

As you really can't seem to give me any concrete examples, or practice what you preach, however, I'd just like to thank you for your time. Have a nice day.

Edited October 14, 2010 by Elswyth

[that girl]

I am completely certain about why a certain action bothers me, and I tend to delve into it wholesale with the other person - almost like a theses. Sometimes I think that just isn't good for human relations. Perhaps, sometimes simply showing someone that you are sad when they do x is better than sitting them through a whole logical argument of how and why x affects me and our relationship.

I think there is a middle ground between delving into something wholesale and just moping around until they notice. Sometimes, you can just ask for some change without bulldozing into a long explanation of why it bothers you.

 

what are you certain of, that it is his fault entirely that it bothers you? I know, that's what this entire posting has been about.

Sagetalk, you keep making it about blame, but it doesn't have to be about blame. Sometimes it can be as simple as wanting someone to do something they wouldn't mind doing if they knew it was important to you.

 

And honestly, do you really want women to not tell men what they want? To just supress every want, annoyance or desire out of fear of driving a man off?

[Els]

I think there is a middle ground between delving into something wholesale and just moping around until they notice. Sometimes, you can just ask for some change without bulldozing into a long explanation of why it bothers you.

 

I think this would be a good idea. However, as SG mentioned, I tend to extrapolate every situation by turning it the other way round. And I, personally, LOVE long explanations. I hate nothing more than to be asked not to do something without a valid and well-explained reason given. Perhaps it is true that others may favour brevity, however. You bring up an interesting point - my bf might very well favour that.

[that girl]

I think this would be a good idea. However, as SG mentioned, I tend to extrapolate every situation by turning it the other way round. And I, personally, LOVE long explanations. I hate nothing more than to be asked not to do something without a valid and well-explained reason given. Perhaps it is true that others may favour brevity, however. You bring up an interesting point - my bf might very well favour that.

I think it really depends so much on the issue.

 

I keep coming back to it, but in the forgetting to call example, I think "I was worried something had happened to you, please call the next time you're going to be late" both gets across the reason and keeps it short.

 

But that wouldn't work with "Where is this relationship going?"

 

No one likes to be lectured.

[Els]

Funnily enough - the forgetting to call example did happen to me. I just looked at him mournfully when he came back (instead of jumping up and hugging him like I usually do) and said sadly, "I really thought something bad had happened to you". He was comforting me and promising to call next time, soon enough. That was partly what led to this conclusion of mine.

 

In regards to the other issue mentioned, I think I also unearthed a possible reason for that, which I listed in http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t249367/ because it's a separate problem.

[Woggle]

Some women want to pick apart everything and can never just enjoy the moment. I knew my wife was the one when we went a weekend vacation without starting an argument about something because that is so rare with women these days.

[A O]

For ages I've heard men (bfs, male friends, etc) saying that women are complicated and difficult to understand. But here's what I don't get - I've pretty much found out that BEING complicated produces better results!

There’s a world of difference between speaking your mind and wanting to discuss a problem that you have with someone. Most folk don’t mind the former, few welcome the latter, especially if said problem is not handled with a decent amount of tact. One could argue that Sagetalk could have used a lot more tact in how he has deciphered your handling of this situation as evidenced by your reaction to his views, which ironically speaking, almost mirrors your situation but in reverse.

 

However, I find that the best way to get the bf to listen isn't to just go straight out and say, "Look, we need to talk about x, y, and z. I feel x, because you did y, which makes me think z. Wouldn't you feel the same way if I did xyz?" - that makes him unhappy and defensive.

From memory, the experts recommend that one states how they feel and then applies it to the situation, or if need be, the person in question. For example… this is how I feel when this happens, or when you do this, that or the other. It’s a slight reworking of your example, designed to minimize, if not bypass altogether the “confrontational” nature that can arise out of a “look – we need to talk because ‘you’re’ doing something which in turn is doing something to me” type approach.

 

The name of the game is to limit confrontation, focus on what really matters – feelings, primarily yours, and identify the trigger point(s) or behavior(s) that influence them – without blaming or focusing on the other person as a whole.

 

 

.

[Titania22]

Pretend your gf has a male friend who is evidently trying to get with her but she doesn't know it, and you feel that she needs to know his intentions and that you feel uncomfortable if she hangs out a lot with him. What would you say?

 

Hey Elswyth,

 

If this is the problem, here is what to do. Don't talk to him anymore about it. Sooner or later this girl will make her move on your boyfriend, and he will realise what was going on. Either that, or she will get bored and move on. The best thing you can do, is be an awesome girlfriend, fun, happy and great sex, etc. Pretend it's all good, even if you don't feel it. Why? Because trying to get him to see the truth is just pushing him away from you and towards her. By being a great girlfriend, when she makes her move, he will realise you were right, but also realise what an awesome girlfriend you are.

 

Remember, if he is going to choose her, he's rubbish and not worthy of you. I feel all great guys would rather stick with the awesome girl they are with, then throw that away on a whim.

[lino]

Most women want to pick apart everything and can never just enjoy the moment.

 

Now that's better and much more accurate.