Men complaining about women being difficult to understand - really?

[that girl]

Actually it's fairly common for a guy who is emotionally invested in you to feel the latter when you say the former. Does that make sense? The problem is that he cares how you feel... and telling him that he made you feel bad is going to make him feel bad. He will express that by being angry with you, or acting nonchalant...

People do this, but it doesn't have much to do with being male. It is plain old emotional immaturity and it tends to escalate situations.

 

If a guy reacts like this (doesn't seem to be the OP's issue), it is one of those things he kind of has to figure out on his own isn't working. It is very hard for the other person to work around. It takes two people to have a healthy relationship.

 

If we use the not calling when late issue, I don't think the way to handle it is "we need to talk" or "I have issues I need to discuss with you." That makes it seem like a big deal.

 

I think the best way to handle it is to be straight forward.

 

"I was worried when you didn't come home. Next time you need to work late, please call me!"

 

"But I forgot!"/"This shouldn't be a big deal"/Anything but "Sorry, I'll remember to call next time"

 

"I get understand, but in future I need you to call me so I don't worry."

 

Other situations might need to be handled differently, but something like this generally works for smaller consideration issues- no blame and a straightforward solution.

[tigressA]

Here's something I think should be thrown into the discussion. Came from a friend of mine: "You need to look at yourself when you're upset or annoyed by something someone else did. You're letting someone else have control over your feelings and mood. You're expecting someone else to fix a problem that you created. The thing you need to tell yourself is, 'I can either shrug this off, or I can walk away.' When you get upset, that's when you say, 'I need some space to deal with my feelings.' Putting it on anyone else but yourself is just BS and that's why so many relationships fail."

 

I don't agree with that wholeheartedly--it does seem rather black and white--but there is a big point in there. What does it say about us when we allow others' actions to control our feelings to such an extent?

[phineas]

When a woman brings up "issues" ... a lot of guys have a hard time processing sensitive information quickly and put up barriers to slow down the perceived "assault". (I'm not saying the stated issue is an assault at all, but it gets interpreted that way... "oh gawd, here she goes again.... what did I do wrong THIS time?").

 

I think the reason why the OP's tactic works is not because she is playing games but because she delivers the message in more digestible chunks.

 

I know when I have tried to directly discuss difficult issues with certain partners/men they would get the "deer in headlights" look. Just stating it openly and honestly would be too much, no matter how delicately approached.

 

Ok, as a man, i'm insulted by that.

I can process anything said to me as long as the means to convey the message isn't:

 

a look

a hint

a made up story about someone else.

ect.

 

just tell me what you want.

It really is that simple.

 

as for this:

"oh gawd, here she goes again.... what did I do wrong THIS time?"

 

if i'm ever at that point with someone i'll end it.

[TLCbear]

I don't know why, but I have noticed that more men than women have trouble putting themselves in someone else's shoes.

 

I agree. From my experience, men always make what they have done no big deal, which frustrates us more. So what I started doing is showing them...wayyy better results. It's all action.

[sweetjasmine]

Actually it's fairly common for a guy who is emotionally invested in you to feel the latter when you say the former. Does that make sense? The problem is that he cares how you feel... and telling him that he made you feel bad is going to make him feel bad. He will express that by being angry with you, or acting nonchalant... or some reaction that fits his personality.

 

That strikes me as pretty childish. I hate it when people refuse to own up to their mistakes or any harm they've caused. It drives me nuts. When my SO does something that upsets me, he usually apologizes for it, and it's not the end of the world.

 

The worst thing anyone can do is to blame the person they upset for their own f-up. Grow a pair and take responsibility for your actions and the effects they have on other people, and that goes for any human being on earth.

[theBrokenMuse]

Actually it's fairly common for a guy who is emotionally invested in you to feel the latter when you say the former. Does that make sense? The problem is that he cares how you feel... and telling him that he made you feel bad is going to make him feel bad. He will express that by being angry with you, or acting nonchalant... or some reaction that fits his personality.

 

In a nutshell you are describing a scenario that goes: "I care how you feel. So, if I do something that causes you pain or discomfort it will affect me and my reaction to this uncomfortable feeling is not to try and come to an actual resolution whatsoever but to compound the problem by becoming agitated with you for daring to bring it up."

 

What you have written above sounds like a person that only cares about someone else's feelings on a minimal level. They will experience discomfort if they knowingly cause distress to another but that brief feeling of empathy is then completely overridden by their ego and self-absorption (ie. they would much rather a their partner keep things to themselves than for them to say anything that will cause them any personal discomfort). People who act this way are practically asking to be resented for their use of aggression/passive aggressiveness as a means of conflict avoidance. I do hope that it is a lot less common behavior in males than you say.

[theBrokenMuse]

"Look, we need to talk about x, y, and z.

Try:"<insert pet name here>, when you have some time today I'd really like for us to discuss X, Y and Z.

 

I feel x, because you did y, which makes me think z.

When Y happens it often leads me to think about Z and then feel X.

 

Wouldn't you feel the same way if I did xyz?

If Y were to happen to you, what would be your thoughts about it?

 

I know my examples aren't perfect ether but avoid the YOU DID or YOU DO statements if you wish to keep the defensiveness to a minimal level. At least that's what I've gathered from my own personal experience - mileage may vary.

[flying]

This is an argument. If you want to succeed, you must be a good rhetorician.

 

To be listened to at all, you must possess ethos: good will, good sense, and virtue. In other words, you must appear caring, wise, and morally sound. It would behoove you to begin establishing this before you even begin your argument.

 

If you come across too aggressive, you won't be seen as having good will. He'll be put on the defensive, rather than being willing to listen. He must understand before you make the argument that the reason you're arguing is because you want things to be better, both for him and for you. Also, you must demonstrate, in this case, that you're willing to listen and make changes in the same way, because your goal -- in having good will -- is the ultimate improvement of your relationship.

 

For the sake of finishing out the ethos definition, good sense: he believes that you might have good ideas about how to improve the relationship; virtue: he agrees with or admires the way you lead your life in general.

 

Your male?

 

On a scale of 1-10 how gay would you consider yourself to be?

 

Actually, I thought the first post quoted here was very interesting and helpful. I don't get why you responded this way.

 

People do respond to intent and to a perception of antagonism vs. cooperation, and how one communicates that intent is key, and yes, rhetoric - the study of communication - matters. I don't know why you'd respond to this thoughtful post - refreshing in the fact that it's about human beings, not gender-focused - like that.

 

The bit I've bolded is a very important point. I also thought the "good sense" part of the definition was very interesting...I hadn't thought of it that way before. But I suppose it points to the subtle issue of underlying respect for one another as key to effective communication.

Edited October 12, 2010 by flying

[MrNate]

I'm going to side with Hokie. Let's not assume that just because that's what work for OP applies to all men. A lot of men out there actually like the direct approach, because if you act like nothing is wrong, we'll believe so.

 

We're not mind readers.

 

That's what works for her and her SO, and I think that's about all we can derive from this thread.

[sagetalk]

If you go into things with a negative attitude, negativity is going to follow.

 

I was trying to show her that she is going into it with a negative attitude and that's the problem. Discussions are one thing, but no one (guys or girls) wants to listen to a "it's all your fault" whine fest. From what I read, it sounded like that is what she wanted to do, hence, it's not working. Not shocking at all.

[Els]

Try:"<insert pet name here>, when you have some time today I'd really like for us to discuss X, Y and Z.

 

 

When Y happens it often leads me to think about Z and then feel X.

 

 

If Y were to happen to you, what would be your thoughts about it?

 

I know my examples aren't perfect ether but avoid the YOU DID or YOU DO statements if you wish to keep the defensiveness to a minimal level. At least that's what I've gathered from my own personal experience - mileage may vary.

 

Thanks for the advice. I have tried much nicer ways of saying it, albeit direct. "Hey, can we talk about something? When x happened the other day, I felt, y'know, a little bit bad. Probably because z. I want to know what you think about it. What do you think we should do to prevent this from happening in the future?" It still makes him feel unhappy.

 

In a nutshell you are describing a scenario that goes: "I care how you feel. So, if I do something that causes you pain or discomfort it will affect me and my reaction to this uncomfortable feeling is not to try and come to an actual resolution whatsoever but to compound the problem by becoming agitated with you for daring to bring it up."

 

What you have written above sounds like a person that only cares about someone else's feelings on a minimal level. They will experience discomfort if they knowingly cause distress to another but that brief feeling of empathy is then completely overridden by their ego and self-absorption (ie. they would much rather a their partner keep things to themselves than for them to say anything that will cause them any personal discomfort). People who act this way are practically asking to be resented for their use of aggression/passive aggressiveness as a means of conflict avoidance. I do hope that it is a lot less common behavior in males than you say.

 

Sadly I think Untouchable might be on to something. Guys don't always make sense, I fear. I would hope he has ideas on how to do it in a way that would NOT evoke that response, however.

 

I was trying to show her that she is going into it with a negative attitude and that's the problem. Discussions are one thing, but no one (guys or girls) wants to listen to a "it's all your fault" whine fest. From what I read, it sounded like that is what she wanted to do, hence, it's not working. Not shocking at all.

 

Wow, a lot of venom in your posts. Perhaps you could suggest a better way to bring up issues in which you do think the other person needs to do something differently, then. I am sure there have been circumstances in your relationship where that happened, or have you never felt your partner was wrong?

[Els]

When a woman brings up "issues" ... a lot of guys have a hard time processing sensitive information quickly and put up barriers to slow down the perceived "assault". (I'm not saying the stated issue is an assault at all, but it gets interpreted that way... "oh gawd, here she goes again.... what did I do wrong THIS time?").

 

I think the reason why the OP's tactic works is not because she is playing games but because she delivers the message in more digestible chunks.

 

I know when I have tried to directly discuss difficult issues with certain partners/men they would get the "deer in headlights" look. Just stating it openly and honestly would be too much, no matter how delicately approached.

 

You might be on to something. But again, I don't see how to overcome this. Any suggestions?

 

I think your mistake is with the bolded part. You can't assume everyone feels the same way you do.

 

Take out the bolded part, and that's exactly how I'd approach something that was bothering me:

 

"Hey, can we talk about something? I feel/think X because you did/didn't do Y." And then I wait for his response, and then an open, honest dialogue begins.

 

I could try. But I can usually feel him tensing up as soon as 'talk' is mentioned, so I'm not so sure if what I say AFTER that makes much of a difference. The point is, I have noticed that I have to let him come to me and initiate the talk. Which does, yes, involve 'games'. Which kinda sucks.

[theBrokenMuse]

Guys don't always make sense, I fear.

If he's conflict avoidant then it all makes perfect sense, unfortunately.

[Els]

Unfortunately, I also think plenty of people ARE conflict avoidant. Are they all to be disqualified from relationships? I don't believe in such a thing as a perfectly emotionally/mentally healthy person, or a perfect relationship. They might exist, but they'd probably be in the 1%, which would leave 99% of us single for the rest of our lives.

 

 

Edit: To clarify, it isn't as if he completely shuts down and doesn't talk, or anything. He does try. But I can just feel that he's unhappy whenever I initiate a 'talk'. He has told me so point blank: He doesn't feel that everything in a relationship should be talked about, and he just dislikes talks. He will do them if necessary, he just dislikes them.

 

What I just didn't tell him, was that talks actually did happen without him being miserable... He probably just didn't think of them as talks because I engineered it to be so.

[OliveOyl]

Ok, as a man, i'm insulted by that.

I can process anything said to me as long as the means to convey the message isn't:

 

a look

a hint

a made up story about someone else.

ect.

 

just tell me what you want.

It really is that simple.

 

as for this:

"oh gawd, here she goes again.... what did I do wrong THIS time?"

 

if i'm ever at that point with someone i'll end it.

 

Believe me, I WISH the men had been more able to discuss things directly. And I think a lot are. But not all. Some guys (obviously not all, and not you) just simply HATE talking about relationship stuff or conflict. With my STBX I got a lot of "I know this is a problem, but can we talk about this later?" or "yeah, yeah, we'll have to deal with that sometime, yeah I know..." but sadly there never was a good time.

[sagetalk]

Wow, a lot of venom in your posts. Perhaps you could suggest a better way to bring up issues in which you do think the other person needs to do something differently, then. I am sure there have been circumstances in your relationship where that happened, or have you never felt your partner was wrong?

 

Thankfully, I've never had this problem with women I've dated, but family and friends yes.

 

She has to approach it at a different angle than, "we have problems lets talk". The guy will immediately know he's going to get blamed throughout the whole conversation. My recommendation is to have a conversation and not a blame feast. The reason the damsel in distress works is because he feels like he's helping, the other way makes him feel like he is being blamed or scolded.

 

That is the best advice I can give, I cannot state it any plainer than that.

[Els]

You may have a point, but saying 'have a conversation' is far too vague. Perhaps tell me how you could improve on "Hey, can we talk about something? When x happened the other day, I felt, y'know, a little bit bad. Probably because z. I want to know what you think about it. What do you think we should do to prevent this from happening in the future?", then. Because to me, that IS a conversation.

 

I also find it very difficult to believe that you have never needed to bring up ANY problems with women you've dated??? What was the longest relationship you've had?

[Els]

Believe me, I WISH the men had been more able to discuss things directly. And I think a lot are. But not all. Some guys (obviously not all, and not you) just simply HATE talking about relationship stuff or conflict. With my STBX I got a lot of "I know this is a problem, but can we talk about this later?" or "yeah, yeah, we'll have to deal with that sometime, yeah I know..." but sadly there never was a good time.

 

Ah, I didn't get that, but I agree that many men (AND women, of course, but I'm not a lesbian so I can't be bothered about that) very much dislike talking about relationship stuff. I don't really know what to do about that. How can you deal with problems without talking about it?

[sagetalk]

 

1. You may have a point, but saying 'have a conversation' is far too vague. Perhaps tell me how you could improve on "Hey, can we talk about something? When x happened the other day, I felt, y'know, a little bit bad. Probably because z. I want to know what you think about it. What do you think we should do to prevent this from happening in the future?", then. Because to me, that IS a conversation.

 

2. I also find it very difficult to believe that you have never needed to bring up ANY problems with women you've dated??? What was the longest relationship you've had?

 

1. Are you trying to convey to him that he is doing something wrong and it bothers you? That is not a conversation you want to have with a guy. It is far better for your motivation to be that you want to talk with him, not at him. The way you have phrased the conversation is talking at him. You are saying a lot of words (which seems like a conversation), but in reality you are setting it up to start pointing a finger right at him. Unless this is about topics which you feel you are at fault, then it works great.

 

When you are the damsel in distress, you are showing him that you need his help with problems (even if he creates them, you still need his help to fix them), when you have conversations like the one above, you show him that you blame him for your problems. HUGE difference. It isn't about him being dumb or hard to understand, it's about how you're making him feel (disrespected) with the way you present it to him. Disrespecting a guy is the number one "don't do" of dating guys. They will shut down every time.

 

2. I never said that, I've never done it like you're doing it (or had it done to me by a girl I was dating). Sure I've had problems, but the girl never came out and blamed me entirely for them. You need to realize the way you are doing it is aggressive/attack mode, change it to neutral.

 

A good start would be something like, "Sometimes I feel like we aren't on the same page. Remember the time......", that is much better.

[Els]

I really don't see how "Sometimes I feel like we aren't on the same page. Remember the time......" is any different? Isn't it just yet another different way of saying what I was saying?

 

I am pretty darn sure that if I said, for example, "Sometimes I feel like we aren't in the same stages of commitment. The things we want are different" etc, he still wouldn't be too happy.

[sagetalk]

I really don't see how "Sometimes I feel like we aren't on the same page. Remember the time......" is any different? Isn't it just yet another different way of saying what I was saying?

 

I am pretty darn sure that if I said, for example, "Sometimes I feel like we aren't in the same stages of commitment. The things we want are different" etc, he still wouldn't be too happy.

 

Good grief . You're not getting it. The whole tone of everything you are posting is blaming/attacking him, you have to get away from that.

 

What you posted is just more attacking the relationship, stating a "supposed" fact, that is nothing like what I posted nor is that a conversation.

 

Of course he wouldn't be happy with that (what guy would), I'm starting to wonder if you even like this guy. It sounds like you treat him like crap.

 

Who do you blame for these problems in your relationship?

[that girl]

Are you trying to convey to him that he is doing something wrong and it bothers you? That is not a conversation you want to have with a guy.

This really put on the blame on the woman, like no matter what a guy does, she shouldn't say anything because guys can't handle being blamed.

 

Sometimes people screw up big time and grown ups need to learn how to handle deserved criticism. That doesn't mean a big lecture over every little thing, but if someone can never bring up something that is the other person's fault, the relationship will die.

 

I am pretty darn sure that if I said, for example, "Sometimes I feel like we aren't in the same stages of commitment. The things we want are different" etc, he still wouldn't be too happy.

This is a pretty hard core discussion. If this is how you are really feeling, I can see why he is dodging the conversation- either he feels like he is doing everything he can and you're just not getting it or he really isn't committed and he doesn't want to admit it and end the relationship.

 

Why don't you feel that committment is an issue?

[Els]

For someone who preaches 'not attacking/accusing', sagetalk, you've done a fair bit more than I have on this thread. At least I don't accuse people of 'treating someone like crap', when all they've done is ask how to better discuss issues in their relationship. I am not blaming anyone, and I'd imagine "What do you think WE can do to solve this problem?", as I gave in my prior example, makes it very clear that I think the onus to solve it is on BOTH of us.

 

Why don't you tell us about a problem you have had in your relationship (which was partially caused by your gf), and how you went about talking to her about it?

[Els]

This really put on the blame on the woman, like no matter what a guy does, she shouldn't say anything because guys can't handle being blamed.

 

Sometimes people screw up big time and grown ups need to learn how to handle deserved criticism. That doesn't mean a big lecture over every little thing, but if someone can never bring up something that is the other person's fault, the relationship will die.

 

Precisely. I don't know how it's possible to carry on a relationship when one cannot let the other person know that something he/she did was the cause of unhappiness.

 

 

This is a pretty hard core discussion. If this is how you are really feeling, I can see why he is dodging the conversation- either he feels like he is doing everything he can and you're just not getting it or he really isn't committed and he doesn't want to admit it and end the relationship.

 

Why don't you feel that committment is an issue?

 

It wasn't that, exactly - it was just an example to fit the mold sagetalk created. But yes, some issues that I have brought up WERE 'hardcore'. I'm not quite sure how to deal with them other than talking about it.

[sagetalk]

1. This really put on the blame on the woman, like no matter what a guy does, she shouldn't say anything because guys can't handle being blamed.

 

2. Sometimes people screw up big time and grown ups need to learn how to handle deserved criticism. That doesn't mean a big lecture over every little thing, but if someone can never bring up something that is the other person's fault, the relationship will die.

 

1. What if she just thinks it's his fault and it's actually her fault? Why go into a conversation thinking you are 100% right. Try it with anyone, it won't work.

 

2. Part of being a grown up is to realize that you make just as many mistakes as other people do, and that you could be part of the problem as well. That is why blaming is pointless unless it's really bad (cheating, beating, lying). There is a huge difference between, "you're boring at sex" and "why is your ex girlfriend's underwear in our bed". One is 100% his fault and deserves blame, the other is a conversation that needs to take place with a starting point of blame on both sides. I'm guessing her's falls under the latter.