Is it really the cheating that is the problem?

[wheelwright]

I have cheated and been cheated on.

 

And I hated being gaslighted when it happened to me. Made me freeze, distrust, withdraw love and generally question the R.

 

However, there have been a couple of instances where I knew the WP (wayward partner) really well and they had a ONS, or even a minor E involvement, and I still felt their main feelings were with me and I didn't feel hurt -and it was confessed immediately.

 

So the question is, if your WS confessed immediately, talked through all their problems and doubts, and maintained their love interest in you despite infidelity, would it bother you?

 

Is it cheating that is bad, or just the gaslighting afterwards?

[ladydesigner]

I have cheated and been cheated on.

 

And I hated being gaslighted when it happened to me. Made me freeze, distrust, withdraw love and generally question the R.

 

However, there have been a couple of instances where I knew the WP (wayward partner) really well and they had a ONS, or even a minor E involvement, and I still felt their main feelings were with me and I didn't feel hurt -and it was confessed immediately.

 

So the question is, if your WS confessed immediately, talked through all their problems and doubts, and maintained their love interest in you despite infidelity, would it bother you?

 

Is it cheating that is bad, or just the gaslighting afterwards?

 

I feel it is both. The gaslighting just makes you feel crazier after discovering the cheating. I feel both are just as bad. It's like being betrayed once and then being betrayed over and over again:(

[Silly_Girl]

I could handle infidelity (and have done) where there is remorse, and honesty and a will to progress. The snidey gaslighting and constant b-sh*t and disrespect. Nope.

 

And I thought this thread (from the title) was whether it's the cheating that ruins the relationship or whether it's a symptom (which I am sure as been done to death here, I'm off for a browse!!!).

[bentnotbroken]

I have cheated and been cheated on.

 

And I hated being gaslighted when it happened to me. Made me freeze, distrust, withdraw love and generally question the R.

 

However, there have been a couple of instances where I knew the WP (wayward partner) really well and they had a ONS, or even a minor E involvement, and I still felt their main feelings were with me and I didn't feel hurt -and it was confessed immediately.

 

So the question is, if your WS confessed immediately, talked through all their problems and doubts, and maintained their love interest in you despite infidelity, would it bother you?

 

Is it cheating that is bad, or just the gaslighting afterwards?

 

 

Betrayal of my trust, breaking marital vows, showing no respect whatsoever for my feelings or my trust=divorce.

[wheelwright]

I feel it is both. The gaslighting just makes you feel crazier after discovering the cheating. I feel both are just as bad. It's like being betrayed once and then being betrayed over and over again:(

 

Hi LD. Good feelings being sent your way now.. but I have a bee in my bonnet:

 

So. You love someone. You see they need to have sex with someone apart from yourself, and that makes their life more full. Less chained. Less about duty, more about experience.

 

Or love. Or healing old wounds. What the heck. I actually want the people I love to live their lives to the full. I do not wish to own anyone in their desire - and that includes duty.

 

Why does it hurt so much to be betrayed in sexual desire? That hurt isn't love, but possession?

[Silly_Girl]

 

Why does it hurt so much to be betrayed in sexual desire? That hurt isn't love, but possession?

 

Did they make a commitment or assert a promise? Because sexual desire or a promise to take out the trash, it hurts when someone goes back on something....

[jnj express]

Its the whole package-----conniving, deceit, ommission, lying, disrespect, trickle truth, manipulation, thrill seeking for what-----If you wanna be single then be single---if you take vows then follow the married script, and if your goals change then get a divorce, and then go be single again

[YellowShark]

Yes, cheating is a serious problem. Gaslighting is adding insult to injury.

 

A moral person with integrity should invest some time and effort into repairing the relationship first rather than looking elsewhere for what they feel is missing. When you cheat you are removing passion and emotion from where it belongs, your relationship. Therefore not only are you damaging the relationship further, you are throwing an innocent unsuspecting party under a bus who is trusting you and emotionally vulnerable to you.

 

If you want out then get out of the relationship before you run into the arms of another. IMHO betrayal of trust - cheating - is an cruel, thoughtless, and entirely selfish act.

[Spark1111]

Yes, cheating is a serious problem. Gaslighting is adding insult to injury.

 

A moral person with integrity should invest some time and effort into repairing the relationship first rather than looking elsewhere for what they feel is missing. When you cheat you are removing passion and emotion from where it belongs, your relationship. Therefore not only are you damaging the relationship further, you are throwing an innocent unsuspecting party under a bus who is trusting you and emotionally vulnerable to you.

 

If you want out then get out of the relationship before you run into the arms of another. IMHO betrayal of trust - cheating - is an cruel, thoughtless, and entirely selfish act.

 

I think it is three-fold: Sexual infidelity in a moment of weakness is devastating, but if honestly and quickly confessed to, I believe it can be overcome in a strong relationship.

 

Lying and gaslighting is worse, IMO, because it shows a total lack of respect for your partner. It is self-protective, self-centered and cowardly.

 

Which leaves the third hardest hurdle to overcome: Respect! Will I ever be able to respect a lying, gaslighting, self-centered, self-protective coward?

 

....there's the rub.....

[Confused4Now]

I think it is three-fold: Sexual infidelity in a moment of weakness is devastating, but if honestly and quickly confessed to, I believe it can be overcome in a strong relationship.

 

Lying and gaslighting is worse, IMO, because it shows a total lack of respect for your partner. It is self-protective, self-centered and cowardly.

 

Which leaves the third hardest hurdle to overcome: Respect! Will I ever be able to respect a lying, gaslighting, self-centered, self-protective coward?

 

....there's the rub.....

Yup...that pretty much sums it up. I was in a marriage for 21 years with a xW who was all the above. Then I get into a EA and found myself in the same situation but even worse. Now i'm single and I have no drama....I'm happy!!!

[fltc]

Which leaves the third hardest hurdle to overcome: Respect! Will I ever be able to respect a lying, gaslighting, self-centered, self-protective coward?

 

I'd add trust to the above. I believe trust can never be fully restored (please note the word 'fully', trust can be restored but it will never be the same as it was) and w/o trust and respect there is no marriage, just a continuing sham.

[Snowflower]

I have cheated and been cheated on.

 

And I hated being gaslighted when it happened to me. Made me freeze, distrust, withdraw love and generally question the R.

 

However, there have been a couple of instances where I knew the WP (wayward partner) really well and they had a ONS, or even a minor E involvement, and I still felt their main feelings were with me and I didn't feel hurt -and it was confessed immediately.

 

So the question is, if your WS confessed immediately, talked through all their problems and doubts, and maintained their love interest in you despite infidelity, would it bother you?

 

Is it cheating that is bad, or just the gaslighting afterwards?

 

I think it is both, probably.

 

I wasn't gaslighted by my H so I can't really answer to the gaslighting. But, I can understand how devastating that is to a BS.

 

Whether it is worse than the actual infidelity probably depends on the BS and the extent of the gaslighting.

 

I don't think the gaslighting somehow makes the actual infidelity any less severe though.

 

Hi LD. Good feelings being sent your way now.. but I have a bee in my bonnet:

 

So. You love someone. You see they need to have sex with someone apart from yourself, and that makes their life more full. Less chained. Less about duty, more about experience.

 

Or love. Or healing old wounds. What the heck. I actually want the people I love to live their lives to the full. I do not wish to own anyone in their desire - and that includes duty.

 

Why does it hurt so much to be betrayed in sexual desire? That hurt isn't love, but possession?

 

Are you saying that if a BS is hurt over their spouse's physical affair, that they (the BS) is being possessive?

 

I don't get why many WS/AP feel that a BS wanting their spouse to be solely devoted to them is considered "ownership." I've don't think I've read where a BS has said this. If someone can point me to an example, that would be great.

 

It's interesting that this is the perception of some WS/AP, but not most of the BS.

[Spark1111]

I think it is both, probably.

 

I wasn't gaslighted by my H so I can't really answer to the gaslighting. But, I can understand how devastating that is to a BS.

 

Whether it is worse than the actual infidelity probably depends on the BS and the extent of the gaslighting.

 

I don't think the gaslighting somehow makes the actual infidelity any less severe though.

 

 

 

Are you saying that if a BS is hurt over their spouse's physical affair, that they (the BS) is being possessive?

 

I don't get why many WS/AP feel that a BS wanting their spouse to be solely devoted to them is considered "ownership." I've don't think I've read where a BS has said this. If someone can point me to an example, that would be great.

 

It's interesting that this is the perception of some WS/AP, but not most of the BS.

 

Snowflower, great point!

 

WW, I do not want my spouse to be Dutiful in their sexual desire of me!

I want them passionate, in love, healing old wounds in their desire of me. I want to be that way with them too.

 

And if they could not work towards that, re-establish that with me, or if I could not re-establish that with them, well...there was the door to go find it with someone else and to set me free to find the same.

 

Isn't that what intimacy is? The freedom and right to feel that way? Isn't fidelity the feeling that way with one person only? Isn't romantic love wanting to only have intimacy and fidelity with one person?

 

If you assume marriage can only be a dutiful contract of obligation-keeping, well....that's what you get from it I guess.

 

But if I sensed for five minutes either he or I were still here out of some sense of duty or obligation, and I would sense it immediately,....no, that really wouldn't stand the test of time long-term. It would be a partnership contract, not an intimate, loving, relationship.

[carhill]

I've been gaslighted enough and did it myself for a couple of months so I can see the unhealthiness of it and how it furthers the initial betrayal, like there's a new betrayal each moment of each day it goes on. No thanks. BTDT. Done.

 

The good news is, having experienced, I now can see signs, both in myself and potential partners, and head off unhealthy dynamics before they grow roots. I've practiced these boundaries a couple of times with married women while divorcing and found them to be healthy and satisfying. Hopefully the ladies found them similar. Win-win

[ladydesigner]

Hi LD. Good feelings being sent your way now.. but I have a bee in my bonnet:

 

So. You love someone. You see they need to have sex with someone apart from yourself, and that makes their life more full. Less chained. Less about duty, more about experience.

 

Or love. Or healing old wounds. What the heck. I actually want the people I love to live their lives to the full. I do not wish to own anyone in their desire - and that includes duty.

 

Why does it hurt so much to be betrayed in sexual desire? That hurt isn't love, but possession?

 

I really liked Sparks answer in that "I do not want my spouse to be Dutiful in their sexual desire of me!"

 

You want your partner to feel THAT sexual desire for you. I believe that is why it hurts to be betrayed that way. Being on both sides now I can understand having that sexual desire for someone else and identify with why my H felt that way during his A's.

 

The possibility of being okay with an open relationship might help, but it definitely takes the right couple to handle that type of relationship and of course there would have to be no deceit, it would all have to be out in the open.

[NoIDidn't]

What I don't get is why the WS starts spouting about "possession" because the BS is hurt about their physical infidelity, but the WS would feel the same hurt if the roles were reversed.

 

Hypocrisy of the wayward maybe?

 

I'm serious. I've seen too many wayward friends try this mess with their spouses, but let them find out that their spouse had a revenge affair and they come out with the "two wrongs don't make a right", and "I thought you loved me", and "how could you give what was mine to someone else".

 

Its an interesting phenomenon surrounding cheating and cheaters.

[ladydesigner]

What I don't get is why the WS starts spouting about "possession" because the BS is hurt about their physical infidelity, but the WS would feel the same hurt if the roles were reversed.

 

Hypocrisy of the wayward maybe?

 

I'm serious. I've seen too many wayward friends try this mess with their spouses, but let them find out that their spouse had a revenge affair and they come out with the "two wrongs don't make a right", and "I thought you loved me", and "how could you give what was mine to someone else".

 

Its an interesting phenomenon surrounding cheating and cheaters.

 

 

Yes it is very interesting indeed. Ever since my H's A's were discovered he has been more possessive. While we did not have a D-day or disclosure of my RA, I am sure he would be singing the same tune if we did.

[Owl]

I have cheated and been cheated on.

 

And I hated being gaslighted when it happened to me. Made me freeze, distrust, withdraw love and generally question the R.

 

However, there have been a couple of instances where I knew the WP (wayward partner) really well and they had a ONS, or even a minor E involvement, and I still felt their main feelings were with me and I didn't feel hurt -and it was confessed immediately.

 

So the question is, if your WS confessed immediately, talked through all their problems and doubts, and maintained their love interest in you despite infidelity, would it bother you?

 

Is it cheating that is bad, or just the gaslighting afterwards?

 

Just to make sure I understand the question...you're wanting to know if it would bother me (others) if they confessed/communicated/maintained a relationship with me but continued to have some form of physical/intimate relationship with someone else?

 

I think the majority of people would still be bothered. I would be.

 

And the reason I'd be bothered is this....I know the risks that this 'other' relationship can pose to 'our' relationship.

 

Even if it's "just physical".

 

How many times have we seen posters come here who started out in an "open marriage"...started out from the very stance you describe, but then end up here because they've been betrayed even in that relationship?

 

Because even if it starts as "just physical"...most of us who have ended up here know that it rarely STAYS that way. Most physically intimate relationships eventually become emotionally intimate ones. Just as most "emotional only" relationships eventually become physical as well.

 

Intimacy begets more intimacy.

 

Investing in a relationship (physically or emotionally) outside of your marriage will REDUCE what you invest in your marriage...very often to the point where the marriage is no longer viable.

 

Most people know this instinctively, if not intellectually. Which is why the first thing that almost all BS's insist upon for recovery is NC of any kind with the OW/OM.

 

I would agree that the betrayal/gaslighting/lies is the PAINFUL part of an affair...but the most DANGEROUS part to the marital relationship is the intimacy with someone else.

[2sure]

My H banging someone else was never the issue. It was the gaslighting.

[2sure]

For me it wasnt the sex he had with others that constituted the main Infidelity. In fact, had been honest with me...I might have entertained the idea within my boundaries and he knew that.

 

The idea that the opposite of Monogamy Is Infidelity ...for me, thats not it.

[djhall]

So. You love someone. You see they need to have sex with someone apart from yourself, and that makes their life more full. Less chained. Less about duty, more about experience.

 

Or love. Or healing old wounds. What the heck. I actually want the people I love to live their lives to the full. I do not wish to own anyone in their desire - and that includes duty.

 

Why does it hurt so much to be betrayed in sexual desire? That hurt isn't love, but possession?

Yes, BUT, cheating, infidelity, and betrayal imply that there was a trust that is being violated by the behavior. What you are describing would, in my opinion, be fine if done BEFORE rather than after the fact. If both parties enter the relationship with the understanding that sexually exclusivity is not part of the deal, then there is no reason to feel betrayed.

 

Alternatively, if things change during the course of the relationship, the other partner has a right to know that you are no longer willing to honor the prior terms of the relationship. This is where things get tough, because lack of ownership goes both ways and there is no guarantee they will be willing to continue the relationship on new terms. No matter how many people may agree or disagree with what you said above, the only opinion that really matters on the topic is that of your partner.

[wheelwright]

Just to make sure I understand the question...you're wanting to know if it would bother me (others) if they confessed/communicated/maintained a relationship with me but continued to have some form of physical/intimate relationship with someone else?

 

I think the majority of people would still be bothered. I would be.

 

And the reason I'd be bothered is this....I know the risks that this 'other' relationship can pose to 'our' relationship.

 

Even if it's "just physical".

 

How many times have we seen posters come here who started out in an "open marriage"...started out from the very stance you describe, but then end up here because they've been betrayed even in that relationship?

 

Because even if it starts as "just physical"...most of us who have ended up here know that it rarely STAYS that way. Most physically intimate relationships eventually become emotionally intimate ones. Just as most "emotional only" relationships eventually become physical as well.

 

Intimacy begets more intimacy.

 

Investing in a relationship (physically or emotionally) outside of your marriage will REDUCE what you invest in your marriage...very often to the point where the marriage is no longer viable.

 

Most people know this instinctively, if not intellectually. Which is why the first thing that almost all BS's insist upon for recovery is NC of any kind with the OW/OM.

 

I would agree that the betrayal/gaslighting/lies is the PAINFUL part of an affair...but the most DANGEROUS part to the marital relationship is the intimacy with someone else.

 

 

I liked so many answers here.. I think there isn't an answer, and the clever wonderful posters who I 'love' answered in a way that reflected that.

 

Bolded absolutely. We could think more about what that means philosophically - but what the ...

[wheelwright]

Yes, BUT, cheating, infidelity, and betrayal imply that there was a trust that is being violated by the behavior. What you are describing would, in my opinion, be fine if done BEFORE rather than after the fact. If both parties enter the relationship with the understanding that sexually exclusivity is not part of the deal, then there is no reason to feel betrayed.

 

Alternatively, if things change during the course of the relationship, the other partner has a right to know that you are no longer willing to honor the prior terms of the relationship. This is where things get tough, because lack of ownership goes both ways and there is no guarantee they will be willing to continue the relationship on new terms. No matter how many people may agree or disagree with what you said above, the only opinion that really matters on the topic is that of your partner.

 

I like bolded, because it allows for people to be - well people.

 

But also in response to this. isn't it true that when we marry we know vaguely somewhere that our spouse may be hugely attracted to another. And while we may potentially be the kind of person you talk about -those who already know they want an Open R, that knowledge may come later.

 

Also, sometimes we end up with someone cos we settle. What happens when love comes after that?

[wheelwright]

What I don't get is why the WS starts spouting about "possession" because the BS is hurt about their physical infidelity, but the WS would feel the same hurt if the roles were reversed.

 

Hypocrisy of the wayward maybe?

 

I'm serious. I've seen too many wayward friends try this mess with their spouses, but let them find out that their spouse had a revenge affair and they come out with the "two wrongs don't make a right", and "I thought you loved me", and "how could you give what was mine to someone else".

 

Its an interesting phenomenon surrounding cheating and cheaters.

 

 

If my H had done that before my loss of faith in the M, I would have cared big time. But I was a WS who had lost faith rather than a cake eater. I think it's different, even if the outcome is sometimes the same.

 

If my H had run off with someone at the point when all I wanted was my AP, I would have cheered.

 

It's not so different now, I'm just stronger.

[wheelwright]

Its the whole package-----conniving, deceit, ommission, lying, disrespect, trickle truth, manipulation, thrill seeking for what-----If you wanna be single then be single---if you take vows then follow the married script, and if your goals change then get a divorce, and then go be single again

 

You said so much here.

 

You also nail a truth. People in As do not want to be single. They want to explore another R. It's so clear sometimes.