Date Rape

[Taramere]

Again, I don't think she was truly suggesting that. Maybe you are choosing to take her comments literally because you have a bone to pick.

 

Of course I wouldn't seriously suggest to anyone that they get themselves raped. I think it's an absolutely horrible crime, and I'm very conscious of the nightmarish aspects particularly vulnerable men must face on being incarcerated.

 

The point is that suggesting to women that they should learn to protect themselves in a situation like this would be a bit like saying to a guy going into prison "there are ways you can prevent yourself from being raped." The reality is, horribly, that there probably aren't. Not once someone is in that situation where there's someone physically close who has decided they're going to have sex with them whether they want it or not...and there's nobody around who is willing or able to stop them.

 

Victims blame themselves constantly for being the victims of this crime, and it's not helped by other people telling them "you could have stopped it from happening."

[Taramere]

I have not read Kamille's anecdotes, but if it is true that it had happened to her 'several times"...what do people here think? Do you think then that there is a pattern? If there is, what is the common denominator here? What should be done to that common denominator?

 

The common denominator is that these guys all persuaded her to let them into her home on the understanding that there would be no sexual outcome...and then tried (with varying degrees of intimidating tactics) to bring about a sexual outcome.

 

The obvious answer would be that Kamille should never again allow a man - friend or not - into her home. I don't think that's a realistic option however. She's in a culture where it's normal for men and women to visit eachother's homes without an automatic expectation that the woman's body will be up for grabs.

 

If she decided never to allow another man into her home, people would probably find that strange and very paranoid -so she's in a very difficult position, because on the one hand her experiences have left her very wary of letting men into her living space. On the other hand...regardless of what advice is being given here, it's pretty normal for male friends to visit female friends and vice versa.

 

Certainly a lot of men might privately hope for a bit of action from a female friend in that situation, and look out for any signals that she's up for it...but I think that most men who are sufficiently well socialised that they have a mixed group of friends are sufficiently respectful of their friends and their friends' boundaries that they wouldn't leap on their bones at the first opportunity. Kamille was unlucky. Perhaps the best she can do is focus on articles that give warning signs about men who are probably a riskier prospect to be alone with. They include

 

1. Men who get very close into your physical space all the time - eg in the bar or at a party - and don't seem to pick up on the "back off a bit" signals. Who continually touch you far more than seems natural or necessary.

 

2. Men who are looking for ways to isolate you quickly from the group rather than being content to get to know you within that group situation.

 

3. Men who make a lot of sexual references in conversation - suggestive of what they plan to get up with you at some later date - even though you barely know them. For instance, years ago a guy I'd just met once said to me "I like women who do some sort of sport, because you can get far rougher with them in bed without worrying that they're going to freak out or get badly hurt."

 

Doesn't mean he's an abuser, but in a situation like that he's giving information about himself that places him in the situation where if anything you don't like happens, he can say "hey - I was very clear with her over what I'm about and what I like to do." It sounds obvious that it would be a bad idea to go home with a man like that, but in practice his bluntness may come across as quite disarming and refreshing sounding...and I think as a result of that women sometimes mistakenly place trust in men who use that "slightly shocking but disarmingly honest sounding" approach. For the avoidance of doubt, I wasn't disarmed by it. Benefits of having a protective older brother who coaches you through adolescence with information about common tactics employed in the pick up.

 

4. Men who are very adamant that you should trust them - even though you hardly know them - and become quite angry with you, or demonstrate very hurt feelings, when you fail to extend to them the level of trust they're looking for.

 

Out of all those things, maybe 4 is the most applicable for Kamille. That she should be confident in her right not to extend trust to someone if any instinct is telling her not to - however impolite, insulting or unsociably cautious it might feel not to extend that trust. In the situations she described, the men all seemed to spend some time persuading her that it was okay to let them into her apartment. A decent guy will, I think, be disappointed - and maybe even slightly offended - but generally understanding if a woman doesn't invite him in, and won't try to press the issue.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Taramere

[tami-chan]

The common denominator is that these guys all persuaded her to let them into her home on the understanding that there would be no sexual outcome...and then tried (with varying degrees of intimidating tactics) to bring about a sexual outcome.

 

The obvious answer would be that Kamille should never again allow a man - friend or not - into her home. I don't think that's a realistic option however. She's in a culture where it's normal for men and women to visit eachother's homes without an automatic expectation that the woman's body will be up for grabs.

 

I see TWO common denominators. !) Guys who really want to sleep with her and are liars 2) She is letting men she obviously, do not know very well in her home when she shouldn't as past experiences should have taught her.

 

If she decided never to allow another man into her home, people would probably find that strange and very paranoid -so she's in a very difficult position, because on the one hand her experiences have left her very wary of letting men into her living space. On the other hand...regardless of what advice is being given here, it's pretty normal for male friends to visit female friends and vice versa.

What is more important to her? The way I see it, the choice is clear.

 

Certainly a lot of men might privately hope for a bit of action from a female friend in that situation, and look out for any signals that she's up for it...but I think that most men who are sufficiently well socialised that they have a mixed group of friends are sufficiently respectful of their friends and their friends' boundaries that they wouldn't leap on their bones at the first opportunity.

Clearly.

 

Kamille was unlucky. Perhaps the best she can do is focus on articles that give warning signs about men who are probably a riskier prospect to be alone with.

I do not know if she is unlucky with her choices. I think she is lucky that her choices have not resulted in a rape. But I agree, I hope she will learn from those articles as well.

[threebyfate]

I strongly encourage members not to get involved in any discussion about rape or attempted rape on LS, if you've experienced it. This site doesn't have sufficient moderation staff to handle this type of sensitive topic.

[brainygirl]

i strongly encourage members not to get involved in any discussion about rape or attempted rape on ls, if you've experienced it. This site doesn't have sufficient moderation staff to handle this type of sensitive topic.

 

best advice so far!

[Taramere]

I strongly encourage members not to get involved in any discussion about rape or attempted rape on LS, if you've experienced it. This site doesn't have sufficient moderation staff to handle this type of sensitive topic.

 

Or certainly not to disclose it. I don't mind disclosing something like the incident I described, which involved unwanted groping and kissing - but only resulted in temporary stress for me. An incident or rape/attempted rape that has caused somebody a lot of long term trauma, though...probably best to restrict disclosure to the kind of trusted friends who you know will be discreet and mature enough to never throw it in your face or make any kind of "do you think you might have been to blame for this?" digs into such a vulnerable area.

 

I think there are a lot of really sound, insightful posters on here, but of course it's a public site - so anyone can throw their tuppenceworth in, and I think however many moderators there were (or whatever their training) judgement calls over how far to let discussions like this go must be really difficult to make.

 

Anyway for my part - if I've contributed anything that caused offence or added trauma to anybody who has personal experience of this horrible crime, I am sincerely sorry for that.

[harmfulsweetz]

Isn't the basic point of this thread to help women be more aware of the ways in which they can protect themselves from this kind of thing?

 

No one is saying that women should not take responsibility for their own safety, they should, but it's not always that simple. As the majority of rapes are committed by men the woman knows, how can they possibly know that this guy is, in fact, a rapist? They may have trusted him for several years/months/ etc. Do we assume every man's a rapist just like men assume all women are up for it unless stated otherwise?

 

A thread such as this really should be about every person putting forth ideas on how women ought to protect themselves, and be aware.

 

One thing I've learned in my experiences is to stay to a main road, somewhere well-lit, don't talk to any strange men, however friendly they seem, where possible, never walk home alone at night. Do not put yourself in an ambiguous situation which may lead to confusion. If you're on a night out, and you're waiting for a taxi home alone, order it from the entrance of a bar and stay close to the bouncers. I suppose it's not necessarily regarding date rape, but it's basics.

 

The basic rule I would have to stay safe on a date, if you don't want sex, stay in a populated place, don't go to his or invite him to yours. Get into a registered taxi home, and leave it at that. Not the most romantic some would say, but it sends the message loud and clear.

[threebyfate]

Or certainly not to disclose it. I don't mind disclosing something like the incident I described, which involved unwanted groping and kissing - but only resulted in temporary stress for me. An incident or rape/attempted rape that has caused somebody a lot of long term trauma, though...probably best to restrict disclosure to the kind of trusted friends who you know will be discreet and mature enough to never throw it in your face or make any kind of "do you think you might have been to blame for this?" digs into such a vulnerable area.

 

I think there are a lot of really sound, insightful posters on here, but of course it's a public site - so anyone can throw their tuppenceworth in, and I think however many moderators there were (or whatever their training) judgement calls over how far to let discussions like this go must be really difficult to make.

 

Anyway for my part - if I've contributed anything that caused offence or added trauma to anybody who has personal experience of this horrible crime, I am sincerely sorry for that.

Don't know if you recall what happened to me on LS after disclosing an attempted rape. I wouldn't wish it happening to anyone else, particularly someone who's experienced rape all the way.

 

This place used to be full of insightful posters. It's lost so many of the good ones and retained some not so good ones.

[Taramere]

Don't know if you recall what happened to me on LS after disclosing an attempted rape. I wouldn't wish it happening to anyone else, particularly someone who's experienced rape all the way.

 

This place used to be full of insightful posters. It's lost so many of the good ones and retained some not so good ones.

 

Yes, I do remember that. I'm not sure I participated in that thread, but I do remember reading it.

 

It's one of the difficult things about this place - when you see someone making what you know to be a sensitive disclosure, something in you sinks because you can be absolutely certain that somebody is going to throw doubt on them or try to blame them in some way....even though (or, unfortunately in some cases maybe because) most intelligent people are perfectly aware of what a terrible thing that is to do to anybody who's undergone that sort of trauma.

[Star Gazer]

Don't know if you recall what happened to me on LS after disclosing an attempted rape.

 

Yes, that was an odd thread (or two). There was an accusation of a "near rape." I recall the accuser saying that she felt uncomfortable with a close friend of hers who was drunk with her in her office late at night. She described it as an attempted rape.

 

There was a debate that followed over whether what was described constituted attempted rape, a crime. Particularly because the morning following what happened, she "backed him up to the wall, finger jabbing against the soft spot in his shoulder, giving him supreme crap over his actions." Other rape/attempted rape victims questioned her definition of "attempted rape" given her reaction to it. One must be an inhumanly emotionally strong person to poke their attacker in the shoulder the following day.

 

Unfortunately, most of the debate-posts were deleted, and a thread about killing "near rape" attackers followed. It was odd indeed.

 

But of course, the very person who suggests we avoid talking about rape and attempted rape on LS is the very person who's continuing the conversation.

 

*shrug*

[threebyfate]

Yes, I do remember that. I'm not sure I participated in that thread, but I do remember reading it.

 

It's one of the difficult things about this place - when you see someone making what you know to be a sensitive disclosure, something in you sinks because you can be absolutely certain that somebody is going to throw doubt on them or try to blame them in some way....even though (or, unfortunately in some cases maybe because) most intelligent people are perfectly aware of what a terrible thing that is to do to anybody who's undergone that sort of trauma.

True. Lesson learned and not to be repeated. So that's why I think it important for newer members to be careful about disclosure and participation in very sensitive topics like personal experiences with rape.

[Star Gazer]

It's one of the difficult things about this place - when you see someone making what you know to be a sensitive disclosure, something in you sinks because you can be absolutely certain that somebody is going to throw doubt on them or try to blame them in some way....even though (or, unfortunately in some cases maybe because) most intelligent people are perfectly aware of what a terrible thing that is to do to anybody who's undergone that sort of trauma.

 

I didn't doubt what happened. I questioned the characterization of it as an attempted RAPE.

 

Rape is a pretty freakin' serious word to be throwing around and accusing every drunk guy who hits on you of. That's all I said, that's all I'm saying now.

[somedude81]

Isn't the basic point of this thread to help women be more aware of the ways in which they can protect themselves from this kind of thing?

 

No one is saying that women should not take responsibility for their own safety, they should, but it's not always that simple. As the majority of rapes are committed by men the woman knows, how can they possibly know that this guy is, in fact, a rapist? They may have trusted him for several years/months/ etc. Do we assume every man's a rapist just like men assume all women are up for it unless stated otherwise?

 

A thread such as this really should be about every person putting forth ideas on how women ought to protect themselves, and be aware.

 

One thing I've learned in my experiences is to stay to a main road, somewhere well-lit, don't talk to any strange men, however friendly they seem, where possible, never walk home alone at night. Do not put yourself in an ambiguous situation which may lead to confusion. If you're on a night out, and you're waiting for a taxi home alone, order it from the entrance of a bar and stay close to the bouncers. I suppose it's not necessarily regarding date rape, but it's basics.

 

The basic rule I would have to stay safe on a date, if you don't want sex, stay in a populated place, don't go to his or invite him to yours. Get into a registered taxi home, and leave it at that. Not the most romantic some would say, but it sends the message loud and clear.

Great post.

 

I'll avoid saying more lest it provokes an attack upon myself...

[tami-chan]

 

It's one of the difficult things about this place - when you see someone making what you know to be a sensitive disclosure, something in you sinks because you can be absolutely certain that somebody is going to throw doubt on them or try to blame them in some way....even though (or, unfortunately in some cases maybe because) most intelligent people are perfectly aware of what a terrible thing that is to do to anybody who's undergone that sort of trauma.

 

It works the same way for those who might have been falsely accused of rape or know of people close to them who have been. It brings about strong emotions. If we can academically and intellectually discuss this issue, this would not be a problem, but as it is because of the kind of emotions it touches in us- some posters begin to attack the poster himself/herself instead of limiting the discussion to his/her particular post/s.

 

Sometimes the attacks are tactical moves to "break" the poster. Others, it is because they have nothing else to counter the argument with but is unwilling to concede or walk away.

 

Date rape and the sub-topics are of particular interest to me because I have a daughter who just left for Univ. Her first line of defense I tell her, is to be responsible for her OWN safety. Certainly, we cannot control all the variables the could be at play...but we must do to the extent the things that we can do to prevent it.

[threebyfate]

It works the same way for those who might have been falsely accused of rape or know of people close to them who have been. It brings about strong emotions. If we can academically and intellectually discuss this issue, this would not be a problem, but as it is because of the kind of emotions it touches in us- some posters begin to attack the poster himself/herself instead of limiting the discussion to his/her particular post/s.

 

Sometimes the attacks are tactical moves to "break" the poster. Others, it is because they have nothing else to counter the argument with but is unwilling to concede or walk away.

 

Date rape and the sub-topics are of particular interest to me because I have a daughter who just left for Univ. Her first line of defense I tell her, is to be responsible for her OWN safety. Certainly, we cannot control all the variables the could be at play...but we must do to the extent the things that we can do to prevent it.

Intellectual discussion of the topic is good. An attempt to cross-examine someone online who's had a crime enacted against them isn't the way to handle it.

 

Fairly recently, there've been two attempted rapes at my old university. They've put in special panic buttons in varied areas, as well as giving out a buddy system number to the girls. The girls can call this number and either end up walking at night with another girl going the same way or onsite security will walk them to their destination. I think this is a very good thing.

[tami-chan]

 

 

Fairly recently, there've been two attempted rapes at my old university. They've put in special panic buttons in varied areas, as well as giving out a buddy system number to the girls. The girls can call this number and either end up walking at night with another girl going the same way or onsite security will walk them to their destination. I think this is a very good thing.

 

Yes, my daughter's Univ has provided a security service whom they can call to be escorted back to the dorm or wherever in the campus at any time..the service is not only for female students, though, it is for all students. It is to hopefully deter any kind of attacks-mugging, etc.

[Floridaman]

(from ME)

I was not talking about her specific case. I regret writing what I wrote and should have made it clear this was about a hypothetical situation, not her's which was clearly rape.

 

Fair enough Floridaman. But I still find the situation somewhat ludicrious. The only women I can see being okay with something like oral sex and not penetration are teenage virgins who are still figuring sex out. In any case, no one should be forced into sex regardless of what they have done before.

 

I don't think asking if a woman is okay with what is going on will ruin the mood. I think "Do you want me inside you?" could end up being kind of sexy for both people. "Oh, God yes!" would probably turn most guys on.

That kind of response would also turn me on IMHO.

The sex play turning into nonconsensual sex situation I described I think also applies to college-age girls that are wanting to sexually experiment but letting her guy only go so far.

I imagine many lost their virginity that way by not speaking up or being firm with their wishes.

[Floridaman]

To put in perspective, the first line of my response quoted below concerned someone else's post, not that the questions I posed after were "good questions" for people to consider..

Originally Posted by Kamille

What about if the girl said: "Sure, I'll come in, but no sex right?" right at the door of the apartment. Does that count as a no?

 

What about "Is it okay if we just cuddle?", does that count as a No. When, exactly, does a request for "No sex", count as "no"?

 

Originally Posted by Floridaman

Good questions both parties need to ponder.

I was referring to the bolded part above...

 

What if the two are naked, have been intimate in other ways that eve. and he's arising to mount her?

She could have last second (literally) second thoughts as he is dangerously close to him doing her.

What if she's even given him permission, but she panics and gets scared?

 

The guy needs to stop. It doesn't matter if he is about to have sex with her or if he is in the middle of having sex with her. Again, sex is something two people do together, not something a man does to a woman after a specific point. Having sex with someone who isn't into it doesn't even sound like fun

.....

There are a million reasons a woman would want to halt p-in-v sex that don't mean she doesn't want to have sex. Everyone should want the active, happy participant of the person they are with.

 

ThatGirl, those are good points about people should be able to stop when they want to stop, the man included, and not be forced to continue.

I hadn't thought of it that way before.

 

And I certainly believe a man should request permission to go further if the signals are mixed.

I'm not talking about her actively welcoming or encouraging him to come into her with her hands or having her unzip him, etc.

 

To make sure no one is confused about the Q's I posted earlier:

I in no way meant a man should force a woman in sex play to go further and give PIV sex with him - against her wishes. Also, I should have said this was a hypothetical question.

 

I don't doubt rape occurs in such situations. And a lot of good innocent women lost their virginity that way by not fighting back or trying hard enough to stop him. It's just looks like the wrong neighborhood (naked in the guy's bed) to be walking through at the time. But that doesn't justify violent behavior and rape.

Edited October 10, 2010 by Floridaman

[Kamille]

Someone asked what the common denominator was in the situations I found myself in, somehow insinuating I must be the problem. I can answer to that. But, I should point out, it would be nice if you actually read the post before waging a finger.

 

1) All the guys were drunk. While we generally assume "potential rapees" should avoid alcohol, studies have shown the rapists' drinking is actually the biggest factor in rape charges. NOW, I know this. When I was 21, not so much.

 

2) I did not know how to be assertive, especially the first time it happened. I got better with time. Read the post and you will see how.

 

3) I was too trusting. How great we live in a world where we expect women to be assertive and upfront but where it's okay for men to lie.

 

I hope this answers your question, as I do think the topic is important and do wish to help people avoid those situations. I could not help but feel, however, that you were taking a slight at me, all the while excusing men who lied and ignored the many times I said I did not want to have sex with them.

[that girl]

Rape is a pretty freakin' serious word to be throwing around and accusing every drunk guy who hits on you of. That's all I said, that's all I'm saying now.

I missed this thread, but unless the accused attacker is an LS poster or the person who posted was considering going to the police or considering posting the accused info online, I don't see the problem in calling them a rapist if the case was somewhat tricky. No one would be harmed by that.

 

But a traumatized victim can be harmed by people doubting her story.

 

It doesn't cost anything to treat someone with compassion. Even if the poster is lying or crazy, no harm is done by treating them with the same compassion you would treat someone who you believed.

 

There was a debate that followed over whether what was described constituted attempted rape, a crime.

I really don't understand people who read a description of what someone felt was attempted rape and feel the need to post "Well, I don't think that was rape."

 

I think it is important for women to be proactive in protecting themselves, but women aren't raped because they foolishly walked home alone, they are raped because a rapist saw an opportunity. The vast majority of men are decent human beings, but the ones who aren't don't wear labels.

 

The man who jumps out of the bushes is a rarity, it is more likely for a woman to be raped by a date, friend, coworker or classmate. It puts women in a very tricky situation because they have to balance the possibility that a guy is a rapist against the fact that he is most likely a good guy who would never rape anyone.

 

So part of preventing rape is educating women to be safe and part of it is realizing that a small number of seemingly good guys are rapists. I think one of the reasons so many men react with disbelief when they hear a woman's story about rape or near rape is that they assume that the guy is a good guy like them. They would never rape anyone, so they don't understand that there are guys out there who don't roofie women or attack women on the street but aren't looking for a consensual sexual experience. They are looking for an opportunity to take what they want, whether or not the woman involved wants it to happen.

[somedude81]

I was too trusting. How great we live in a world where we expect women to be assertive and upfront but where it's okay for men to lie.

Men will lie.

 

It's one of those things in this world where there is no point in complaining about it. Just expect it to happen and look out for yourself.

[tami-chan]

It doesn't cost anything to treat someone with compassion. Even if the poster is lying or crazy, no harm is done by treating them with the same compassion you would treat someone who you believed.[

 

I agree, it does not cost anything to be compassionate or kind. Problem is, some people are only kind and compassionate to other people who express opinions or beliefs consistent to theirs-then others, are just called "liars" and other names.

 

I really don't understand people who read a description of what someone felt was attempted rape and feel the need to post "Well, I don't think that was rape."

It is an open forum. If a person is compelled to tell a story in public forum-true or not-it is open to interpretation by anybody. Granted one cannot really argue "feelings", but, that is why accusations as serious as rape cannot only be based on "feelings".

 

I think it is important for women to be proactive in protecting themselves, but women aren't raped because they foolishly walked home alone, they are raped because a rapist saw an opportunity. The vast majority of men are decent human beings, but the ones who aren't don't wear labels.

Then as women, our responsibility to ourselves is to lessen that opportunity to be available to opportunists.

 

The man who jumps out of the bushes is a rarity, it is more likely for a woman to be raped by a date, friend, coworker or classmate. It puts women in a very tricky situation because they have to balance the possibility that a guy is a rapist against the fact that he is most likely a good guy who would never rape anyone.

I agree. Most date rapes are by people known to the victim...and many of these situations were preceded by substance abuse(usually alcohol). Again, how does one minimize this? How about do not drink alcohol? How about do not be around people who are so drunk or high they are doing ridiculous things? How about do not get physical with someone you barely know? etc.etc.

 

So part of preventing rape is educating women to be safe and part of it is realizing that a small number of seemingly good guys are rapists.

I agree. These go hand in hand. Coupled with educating our men when to stop and back off or that drinking to oblivion-to a point where you "lose" control of your faculties is not acceptable.

[tami-chan]

Someone asked what the common denominator was in the situations I found myself in, somehow insinuating I must be the problem. I can answer to that. But, I should point out, it would be nice if you actually read the post before waging a finger.

 

1)All the guys were drunk. While we generally assume "potential rapees" should avoid alcohol, studies have shown the rapists' drinking is actually the biggest factor in rape charges. NOW, I know this. When I was 21, not so much.

 

2) I did not know how to be assertive, especially the first time it happened. I got better with time. Read the post and you will see how.

 

3) I was too trusting. How great we live in a world where we expect women to be assertive and upfront but where it's okay for men to lie.

 

I hope this answers your question, as I do think the topic is important and do wish to help people avoid those situations. I could not help but feel, however, that you were taking a slight at me, all the while excusing men wholied and ignored the many times I said I did not want to have sex with them.

 

I asked the question. And Taramere answered. I do not know why it almost happened to you more than once. I did not know if there was alcohol involved, or if you were flirting with them etc.etc. So I did not have any preconceived idea. It was just amazing that it happened a few times to the same person. Sometimes we have to make a hard look at our choices and see if there is anything we need to change in order not to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

Actually, I am surprised that you feel slighted by me. You, yourself have listed the common denominators in the bad situations you found yourself in and you included yourself-young and naive, etc. Do you wish to remove yourself from the equation and claim there was absolutely nothing you could have done to prevent it?

[tami-chan]

Men will lie.

 

It's one of those things in this world where there is no point in complaining about it. Just expect it to happen and look out for yourself.

 

The most curious thing about this is...these men(in the story) were drunk- at 21, I already knew how alcohol affected the brain-it affects brain processes causing poor judgment and depresses inhibition(among others). How can anyone expect them to keep their word? Granted...here's a qualifier: alcohol affects people in varying degrees.

 

BTW, men lie, just like women lie and men are honest, just like women are honest. Neither is exclusive to either.

[Kamille]

I asked the question. And Taramere answered. I do not know why it almost happened to you more than once. I did not know if there was alcohol involved, or if you were flirting with them etc.etc. So I did not have any preconceived idea. It was just amazing that it happened a few times to the same person. Sometimes we have to make a hard look at our choices and see if there is anything we need to change in order not to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

Actually, I am surprised that you feel slighted by me. You, yourself have listed the common denominators in the bad situations you found yourself in and you included yourself-young and naive, etc. Do you wish to remove yourself from the equation and claim there was absolutely nothing you could have done to prevent it?

 

I felt you adopted a blame the victim mentality. And yes, I am self-reflective and have taken a hard look at my actions. I am willing to admit I make mistakes and take responsibility for my share of the blame here. This does not excuse, however, these men's actions. They were as much in the wrong as I was, and I would argue, easily even more. I am also willing to risk public humiliation to discuss this topic and be honest about my experiences. I hope you daughter never finds herself in that kind of situation.

 

Since you cannot be bothered to read posts, I should also point out that I adopted the rule that I never go to secluded places, after the incident with guy number 2. Guy number 3 claimed he had to go to the washroom and since he was someone I considered a friend, I let him in. Now go ahead people, tell me how ridiculous and naive it is to let a human being go to the toilet and that I should have known he was lying about that and accept that men lie and are allowed to lie and there is nothing wrong about it. Okay then, some women lie and make false rape charges. We all know it's like that. Live with it. That's how the world works. We also know cheaters lie, but of course they will lie, they're cheating. We should also all accept that.

 

Yes, I must be the one to blame. These men shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. Nor should we expect them to respect their word or listen to what a woman is saying and doing.

 

While I absolutely agree that women are responsible for protecting themselves, I also think we should educate men about rape and about how to recognize when they are putting themselves at risk for rape accusations. Rape is a societal problem, not a "women's" problem.

 

I should add another common denominator:

 

4) All these men were known to me, the ones from cases 2 and 3 I knew really well.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Kamille