Date Rape

October 10, 2010

I think I recall saying in a different thread, Elaina, that you strike me as a someone who is very keen to see the best in others. Which is a great quality, but that can also make a person vulnerable in certain situations...so I can understand your friends getting angsty about you accepting a ride from a stranger.

They kept asking "How do you KNOW that he's wasn't going to hurt you?" And yeah I couldn't answer that, but I didn't feel anything the matter. Probably if he was leering at me or something like that, I wouldn't have gotten in the car.

I was about to say "never accept a lift from a strange guy" but I know that when my car was stuck in snow one night and a guy came along in a 4WD I got in because basically I had no option. He equally probably felt "well you shouldn't offer lifts to women, but what am I supposed to do in a situation like this?"

Yep. I wish that nowadays people didn't have to worry about safety like that, but it's a harsh reality in a world full of pain.

That's awesome that he was a nice guy who cared for your wellbeing and got you somewhere safe and warm!

But yeah...generally unless you're totally stranded and there really is no other option, best to turn down that offer of a lift from a stranger.

True. Also, one thing that's nice is to live near friends/family who you can call at any time if you're in need, and they will come get you. It's so nice to have a cell phone when one breaks down!!! If a person breaks down far away, it's good to call a roadside assistance program to help too. It is a scary thing being stuck in the middle of nowhere.

October 10, 2010

I come from a small town, where I often took it for granted that the guys in my extended circle of friends were decent. And, more often than not, they are decent. But I had 3 experiences with rotten apples that have proved it's really hard to distinguish a decent guy from a drunk, horny, I will take what I can get, guy.

Case number 1:

He walks me home, we chat, we laugh. Note, I am 21 at the time and as I said, assumed people and my extended circle were decent people. We get to my place right in the middle of an interesting discussion about philosophy. He asks if he can come in and tells me : "No funny stuff, I promise!". I know my roommate, a guy friend of mine, is in so I invite him in. It all goes downhill from there. We talk, he asks me to come sit to him, which I decline, he pulls me off the armchair I'm sitting in and starts kissing me. I don't know what to do or how to react. I start getting scared. He starts telling me that obviously I knew what was going to happen when I asked him in (Note: he's the one who asked to come in) or else am I saying I'm naive. He hints that I'm a prickteaser if I don't go along with it. He questions my character. Tells me I want it, that I shouldn't be such a prude, etc etc. He pulls me to the room, I pretend I'm suddenly ok with things but say I need to go to the washroom. Once there I lock myself in, crying. I don't hear him leave, so, after about an hour, I go check in the bedroom and see he's passed out in my bed. I go sleep on the couch. The morning after he pretends he doesn't remember anything.

Case number 2: this was a good friend of mine. We worked on the same student paper together and I had a huge crush on him. Again, I'm in my early 20s. One night, after the bars, we hit things off and he asks me to his place, for a drink. I say : "Just a drink right? Nothing else?" He replied, "of course". We go in we have a drink, kiss, and the next thing I know I'm pinned to the floor, saying "No, stop it, no... Eric, stop it." He didn't stop until I screamed : "Eric, I said No!", clearly coding what was going on as rape. Even then, I had to wrestle myself out of his arm. Needless to say, I never spoke to him again, never reported him and lost my position at the paper. The thing is: I thought I could trust this guy.

Case number 3 happened in recent years: I run into a guy I had had a consentual ONS with months prior into a bar. He sees me and officially asks me out on a date. We chat, we laugh, we have a great time. At the end of the night, he offers to walk me home. I say: "Sure you can, but I'm still heatbroken over my ex, so please know: I'm not inviting you in". He says he's ok with that. I check again, because since case 1 and 2, I have a hard rule about being in private places with guys I don't want to have sex with. He walks me home, we have a great conversation, as we always do, if it isn't that he's a bit drunk. Once we get there he asks: "I need to pee. Can I just go in to pee?" I repeat: "Ok, but no funny stuff. We're not having sex tonight". While he's in the washroom, I pour myself a glass of water. Note, I'm not drunk at this time, but he's sloshed. He walks out and as I'm drinking water, I do the polite thing and offer ask him if he wants a glass. He asks if I have anything stronger. This is when I get uneasy, and, again, hope for the belief that he's a decent guy and offer him a glass of scotch. He sits on the couch I sit on the armchair. He asks me to come sit next to him, I say no. He makes this huge argument about me being a hypocrite since I invited him in and we both know what that means. I point out I didn't invite him in. He starts putting forth arguments as to why we should have sex. I kick him out of my apartment. Considering he's 6 something, believe me, I was scared.

Again, I thought I could trust this last guy. Wrong again.

My point is: it seems I struggle to identify creeps until it is too late. I failed that test three times. I refuse to put myself in that position ever again.

That's understandable - completely. The only experience I've had of unwanted and aggressive sexual advances from someone I knew (as opposed to obnoxious drunks who regard any woman in a club or walking down the street at night as fair game for a grope) was at a party years ago. He wasn't someone I particularly liked but tried to get along with for the sake of the group who all seemed to like/respect him. I was there with my then bf who had fallen asleep on a chair. This guy came over pissed (as in drunk) as anything and started fondling me.

I was sort of gently pushing him away and saying "I'm here with X. Don't. Just don't." "I've always fancied you. I want to screw you" he slurred. "Just get off." I kept pushing him but he carried on grabbing and kissing me - getting more and more aggressive about it.. A couple of guys I knew vaguely were watching and smirking. None of the women seemed to be doing anything...and I remember thinking "for ****'s sake. this guy is about 6 ft 6" and built like a tank. I'm 5 ft 4. Surely you can see that I'm not into this and help me out here?" It's astounding what people will overlook if a guy is part of their group.

This went on for God knows how long. Suddenly he got up, pulled down his zip and urinated all over everybody's drinks - then left the room. I think that was about the time others realised "he's actually a bit of an arsehole." Not when he was groping a woman who clearly wasn't into it, but when he pissed into their drinks. Rough justice for them for sniggering like idiots when I was in a situation like that.

October 10, 2010

This went on for God knows how long. Suddenly he got up, pulled down his zip and urinated all over everybody's drinks - then left the room. I think that was about the time others realised "he's actually a bit of an arsehole." Not when he was groping a woman who clearly wasn't into it, but when he pissed into their drinks. Rough justice for them for sniggering like idiots when I was in a situation like that.

Oh my goodness!!!

October 10, 2010

Oh my goodness!!!

Yes, lovely eh? Apparently he woke up the next day to find that he was in the middle of a Shinty Club ceilidh. I don't know how much drink someone of his size would have to ship into their system to get that sozzled, but it was a free bar that night. One of these pay a few pounds for an allnighter of drinking and partying. They were good nights generally, but that certainly wasn't one of the finest.

October 10, 2010

I've never pissed in anyone's drink. For what it's worth.

October 10, 2010

Yes, lovely eh? Apparently he woke up the next day to find that he was in the middle of a Shinty Club ceilidh. I don't know how much drink someone of his size would have to ship into their system to get that sozzled, but it was a free bar that night. One of these pay a few pounds for an allnighter of drinking and partying. They were good nights generally, but that certainly wasn't one of the finest.

He didn't get arrested or got beaten by bar patrons for doing that number or something? that's really horrible!

I've never pissed in anyone's drink. For what it's worth.

Thank you, Johan!... from the bottom of all drinking people's beer mug...I mean, heart!

October 10, 2010

I've never pissed in anyone's drink. For what it's worth.

My wedding dress is at the drycleaner's. I'll let you know when it's ready.

October 10, 2010

He didn't get arrested or got beaten by bar patrons for doing that number or something? that's really horrible!

I'm reluctant to say where it happened because I've posted so many details already. It wasn't in a normal bar, though. It was a uni thing...and no. The only bouncers, if you could call them that, were frail old men who were long gone for the night. We were the only ones in charge. The lunatics had taken over the asylum.

October 10, 2010

The thing is, each person is responsible for their own safety and wellbeing- it is up to you to not put yourself in a position whereby you may be at risk. If a guy invites you to his place, assume he wants sex. If you do not want sex too, then do not go. You'll only end up at risk.

I assume the best in people, I probably trust too easily but I too have been proven wrong about that. I was walking home one night with a friend, and this guy started walking with us, forcing us to put our arms around him. The shocking thing was, even though we walked past many men and displayed clear signs that we were not happy, not safe, no one stopped to help. We were eighteen at the time. He had his hand gripping my wrist, and when we tried to leave, he just kept grabbing at each of us, until we pushed him into the road. It still sends shivers down my spine to think of it, what if we had been alone? It just goes to show that it really could be the guy that's walking down the street. But even when he was forcing us to wrap our arms around him, we didn't immediately think he would try to do that. It was clear from his mannerisms in his last ditch attempt to control us what he wanted to do.

I've had instances of being blocked into the ladie's toilet in a bar with a guy, having to get someone to get the bouncer to get them out. In other times in a bar, I've had guys who I had never spoken to attempt to put their hands down my pants. The alarming trend I've noticed with these guys is that they weren't British. They were all Asian. I'm not saying that as a racist comment, but it did strike me that maybe their culture is something to do with it. The domineering ideology over women and such 'take what you want' etc. There are plenty more examples of guys doing this sort of thing to me in bars, and my friends, none of them committed by British men. I do believe it's a cultural thing.

It just alarms me that so much emphasis is placed on a woman's actions etc. It's made about the women, when really it's about a man who has no respect, no consideration, and quite frankly f all morals. Women DO want a sexually forward partner, course we do, but only when we are giving consent. It's not hard if you feel there's a mixed signal in there to ask if she definitely wants to go ahead. If you're old enough to be having sex, you're old enough to ask consent for it too. Why does asking a simple question ruin the mood, but going ahead with mixed signals does not? Perhaps some men just believe they ought to take what they want, huh?

It's not about being an alpha male, it's about respect. A woman will always think more of the man who asks consent, and who figured her feelings into the equation than a man who just took what they wanted.

False accusations do happen for various reasons.

1) money.

2) fame.

3) regret.

And more. But they are rare. And unless you're say a footballer, or some rich movie star, it's highly unlikely they are doing it for one and two. I think men often put themselves at risk of being accused of rape by not doing their due diligence. Often, a woman believes there is no consent, she's lying there, feeling intimidated, threatened, and believes rape happened as there was no consent. If the man believes the notion of if she's not pushing me off, she's consenting, he's putting himself at risk of being accused.

How's about men change the notion to-if she's not actively participating, she's not consenting? As Taramere has said, the default setting should be changed to 'no' unless stated-either through action or words.

October 10, 2010

This went on for God knows how long. Suddenly he got up, pulled down his zip and urinated all over everybody's drinks - then left the room. I think that was about the time others realised "he's actually a bit of an arsehole." Not when he was groping a woman who clearly wasn't into it, but when he pissed into their drinks. Rough justice for them for sniggering like idiots when I was in a situation like that.

How frustrating! Up until that moment, you had a choice: make a scene in public or keep putting up with this purposefully oblivious idiot.

What I find frustrating about this ideology that the responsibility to communicate clearly rests solely on the woman's shoulders and not on men's capacities to understand what is being communicate and how it is being communicate. This while every theory of communication shows that communication is as much about speaking as listening and reciprocating. Do we really consider it acceptable that we live in a society where a woman has to "scream potential rape" in order for a guy to finally get the message that she doesn't want to have sex?

And then, the same people who advocate that the only way women can decline is to basically threaten rape charges also complain that there are too many false rape charges? Make up your mind! Either you 1) want the signals that sex is consensual to be clearer and 1b) therefore agree that men have an obligation to be clear that the sex is consensual or 2) accept that since you advocate people are only responsible for their own pleasure, then 2b) it's obvious that signals are going to get crossed and that people are going to disagree about the nature of what is happening. But you can't have it both ways.

October 10, 2010

I've had guys who I had never spoken to attempt to put their hands down my pants. The alarming trend I've noticed with these guys is that they weren't British. They were all Asian. I'm not saying that as a racist comment, but it did strike me that maybe their culture is something to do with it. The domineering ideology over women and such 'take what you want' etc. There are plenty more examples of guys doing this sort of thing to me in bars, and my friends, none of them committed by British men. I do believe it's a cultural thing.

This is kind of a taboo subject (another one), but it's an issue that's kind of rumbling away. There was a big furore in Norway a few years ago when an anthropologist stated that for the sake of their own safety Norwegian women were going to have to adapt their behaviour in recognition of the differing attitudes towards women in cultures many immigrants to Norway came from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unni_Wikan

In 2001 debate about the culture of rape amongst Muslim immigrants in Norway, she said that Norwegian women are 'blind and naive' towards non-Western immigrants. "I will not blame the rapes on Norwegian women. but Norwegian women must understand that we live in a Multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes." For example, by not inviting into their homes Muslim men with little knowledge of Norwegian culture

A few years later, Amnesty International compiled a report "Case Closed" criticising the apathetic response of Sweden (and the other Scandinavian countries - but particularly Sweden) to rape. The Nordic countries aren't exactly the first that would spring to mind when you think of unsympathetic or disinterested cultural attitudes to rape victims. The report made commentary which is particularly relevant with regard to the notion that women should adapt themselves to take account of the notions of immigrants coming from cultures where oppressive attitudes are commonly held against women.

"According to Article 5(a) of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women, states are obliged to take measures to modify the social and cultural patterns of conduct of men and women and eliminate prejudices and customary and all other practices based on stereotyped roles for men and women. Preventive measures should include the education of children and young people about mutual respect in relationships..."

(to read the full article, google "Case Closed" and "Amnesty International." I'd link, but it's a Quick View that might not link properly).

This relates pretty closely to Kamille's points

Do we really consider it acceptable that we live in a society where a woman has to "scream potential rape" in order for a guy to finally get the message that she doesn't want to have sex?

And then, the same people who advocate that the only way women can decline is to basically threaten rape charges also complain that there are too many false rape charges? Make up your mind! Either you 1) want the signals that sex is consensual to be clearer and 1b) therefore agree that men have an obligation to be clear that the sex is consensual or 2) accept that since you advocate people are only responsible for their own pleasure, then 2b) it's obvious that signals are going to get crossed and that people are going to disagree about the nature of what is happening. But you can't have it both ways.

When the Norwegian anthropologist advocated that Norwegian women would have to adapt their attitudes to take account of multiculturalism and the increase in immigrants coming from cultures where rape is very common and accompanied with a very low regard for women and their basic human rights, she wasn't wrong in terms of giving advice that would help to keep women safe.

The problem is that it's not really possible to give that advice without an accompanying implication that the responsibility is on women to take precautions rather than on men to show some respect both for the laws and norms of the culture they have made their home in, and for the human rights of the women living in it.

October 10, 2010

Most important part of the previous post

the responsibility is on women to take precautions

There are bad men out there. Women need to learn how to protect themselves.

Playing dead is not the answer.

October 10, 2010

Most women I know, myself included, are told that if we've been physically attacked and they have you down, to freeze. You're caught, he's going to do what he's going to do, but if you freeze and let him, he may not break every bone in your face or beat you to death in the process.

Rape is a crime of anger and control, not of passion.

It is not the fault of the woman who gets raped that she was raped. period, end of story.

October 10, 2010

Sensitive subject Sanksrit? Well so is male on female rape.

Here is an article on male rape in prisons. You can't or won't put yourself in a female rape victim's shoes. That's evident from your posts. Perhaps it will be easier to put yourself in the shoes of the guys whose stories are discussed in this article. These are men who found themselves in the position where other men decided "I want that, and so I'll have it." Read it, and get an understanding of what it's like for anybody to be in the situation where a physically stronger person is overpowering them and there's nothing they can do about it.

October 10, 2010

Rape is a crime of anger and control, not of passion.

It is not the fault of the woman who gets raped that she was raped. period, end of story.

You are right about this. NO ONE is saying otherwise. I do not think there is even a question of who is the victim here.

October 10, 2010

Most women I know, myself included, are told that if we've been physically attacked and they have you down, to freeze. You're caught, he's going to do what he's going to do, but if you freeze and let him, he may not break every bone in your face or beat you to death in the process.

Rape is a crime of anger and control, not of passion.

It is not the fault of the woman who gets raped that she was raped. period, end of story.

Is that true for a date rape scenario?

Maybe the guy will hit her. Even if he does, is it worse than letting oneself get raped?

October 10, 2010

I don't think there is anything to apologize for or that the post should be removed.

Had a man suggested that women, a specific poster even, need to be raped to be able to understand the issue, what result?

You can try to euphemize any offensive, over the line post as being merely facetious, nice try, doesn't make it so. Her tone is plain, and she obviously doesn't see anything wrong with that type of post... when a woman makes it.

October 10, 2010

I don't think there is anything to apologize for or that the post should be removed. I'm pretty sure that Taramere wasn't actually recommending that anyone run off to prison for a good rogering by Roger. I think the point, facetious as it was, was that boiling the whole solution down to "women need to protect themselves" may be similar to asking why the zebra with it's hard hooves doesn't just give the lion a good kick in the teeth. Then that lion would learn not to mess with the zebra. Again, I'm not going to recommend anyone take a stroll on the savannah, but it's possible you might learn there needs to be more to the solution if you're honestly interested in saving the poor zebra.

Thanks Johan, and precisely. Most of the literature I've seen on this subject (protecting oneself in the event of a rape) does tend to say that to a large extent the victim must trust their own instincts on how to respond. In some cases, it might be possible to talk the attacker out of what they're doing.

Where the victim freezes, this is unlikely to prevent an attack - but it might result in less injury than would be incurred if they attempted to fight back. Trying to fight back against an aggressive attacker who is a good bit stronger than you is possibly going to result in an even more violent and abusive attack - which is probably why it's the instinct of many victims to freeze in response to an attack.

October 10, 2010

BTW, Kamille posted several examples how she avoided being raped resisting.

October 10, 2010

Is that true for a date rape scenario?

Maybe the guy will hit her. Even if he does, is it worse than letting oneself get raped?

Ok, lets say I'm a naieve little thing who lets mr. good looking into the apartment after a fun date. We start making out, I decide I'm done, he holds me down and wont stop. Its late, its dark, my cell is in the other room in my purse and I don't pay for a landline.

I could a) attempt to fight him off, but he's bigger than I am. I might be able to kick or claw him off me, or it might get him angry and instead of just using me for sex and leaving he decided to beat the crap out of me. So now instead of having been raped, I've been raped, have broken bones in my face and maybe a wrist, and several broken teeth. I need surgery and will never look the same again, on top of the emotional scars from the rape.

or

b) I try to push him off, I say no, he keeps going, I freeze, he rapes me, realizes he's raped me, and leaves like the coward he is.

There is ultimately a choice anyone in a dangerous situation can face. Fight and die or stay alive long enough to get help.

October 10, 2010

Had a man suggested that women, a specific poster even, need to be raped to be able to understand the issue, what result?

You can try to euphemize any offensive, over the line post as being merely facetious, nice try, doesn't make it so. Her tone is plain, and she obviously doesn't see anything wrong with that type of post... when a woman makes it.

Again, I don't think she was truly suggesting that. Maybe you are choosing to take her comments literally because you have a bone to pick. But you aren't going to impress anyone with that particular debating tactic. It strikes me as a bit hysterical. But it's your bone, and you can pick it however you want. Just don't go running to the authorities feigning hurt and think you'll have any more, or even as much, traction in the argument when you get your way.

There are women in the world who have pretended they were harmed when they weren't. All as a way to get a poor man in trouble. I don't think anyone respects them for that.

Edited October 10, 2010 by johan

October 10, 2010

Ok, lets say I'm a naieve little thing who lets mr. good looking into the apartment after a fun date. We start making out, I decide I'm done, he holds me down and wont stop. Its late, its dark, my cell is in the other room in my purse and I don't pay for a landline.

I could a) attempt to fight him off, but he's bigger than I am. I might be able to kick or claw him off me, or it might get him angry and instead of just using me for sex and leaving he decided to beat the crap out of me. So now instead of having been raped, I've been raped, have broken bones in my face and maybe a wrist, and several broken teeth. I need surgery and will never look the same again, on top of the emotional scars from the rape.

or

b) I try to push him off, I say no, he keeps going, I freeze, he rapes me, realizes he's raped me, and leaves like the coward he is.

There is ultimately a choice anyone in a dangerous situation can face. Fight and die or stay alive long enough to get help.

The answer is actually

c)I try to push him off, I say no, he keeps going, I yell, "I SAID NO!" He may stop there. If he doesn't and you are absolutely out of options, just taking it may be the safest thing. Then right away call the police.

Of course only letting in somebody when you're absolutely sure you want to have sex with him, is the most important step.

October 10, 2010

I've got an idea. Get yourself banged up in prison for a couple of months then you'll be in a position to provide people with tried and tested measures on protecting themselves from any big, strong guy who fancies a piece of their asses.

WHOAH! All he said was that we, women have to protect ourselves. What is so offensive about that that you have to resort to this?

I have read somewhere that alcohol and drug use is a precipitating factor in most date rapes. As a mother, who has daughter who just started univ, I have talked about this with her countless times. We MUST ,as women take a proactive approach in making sure that we do not find ourselves in situation where there is no safe way out.

I find it mind-boggling that women take offense when a suggestion to "take care of yourself and be responsible for yourself" is voiced. This is not about blame-shifting. This is just the practical thing to do. we cannot run around being responsible for other people's decisions/acts...we can however, be responsible for ourselves.

As parents were did we go wrong? Most of these men did not raise themselves. What did we teach them? How did we teach them to treat women? This is all our responsibility-educating our men and women.

The bar full of brutes and rude men? Do not go to those places, patronize places that are "nicer". A bar full of "b*tches and skanky women"? Go somewhere where "nice, proper women frequent"! Can't handle your alcohol well? Then don't drink. The choices are simple.

Edited October 10, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

October 10, 2010

If participants in this thread can't get back on topic and off the argumentative mode, it will be shut down. You can disagree in a civil, non-argumentative fashion and if you don't know how to do it get some help from a friend. Let's learn from each other here, let's hear your ideas, let's have your questions, but don't put others down for theirs. If a post is inappropriate for our forums, REPORT IT BUT DON'T GET NASTY OR RESPOND TO THAT POST...JUST REPORT IT.

Thank you...let us continue...in peace, harmony and brotherly cooperation.

October 10, 2010

BTW, Kamille posted several examples how she avoided being raped resisting.

I have not read Kamille's anecdotes, but if it is true that it had happened to her 'several times"...what do people here think? Do you think then that there is a pattern? If there is, what is the common denominator here? What should be done to that common denominator?

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