Date Rape

[Kamille]

LOL decency?! Sorry Kamille, the world doesn't work like that.

 

If a man invites you into his place, and both of you know that he wants sex; why would you go inside?!

 

 

Are you saying you condone lying?

 

Or is it rather that you believe men cannot control their sexuality?

[Rashad]

One time a girl from our circle was going on a first date with this one dude... and she asked us all to go with her, we were of course sitting on different tables away from her and her date. She felt safer that way at the same time they had their privacy. I thought that was smart of her. But you need to have cool friends like us to pull that off

[waynebrady]

I think part of it is the whole "men have to be aggressive and assertive to be attractive" thing. How many men ask for a kiss? How many just go for it?

 

It's women who want men to be assertive and be the initiator when it comes to kisses and sex too. I have seen countless women say that they would think the guy isn't into her if he doesn't try to kiss her after so and so many dates. Women want the man to initiate kisses and sex and be assertive... It's almost like men are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[somedude81]

Are you saying you condone lying?

 

Or is it rather that you believe men cannot control their sexuality?

You ignored my question. Why would you go inside knowing he wants sex?

 

As for lying, that's a certain type of lie. It's like asking if the outfit makes you look fat when you know it does. Of course he's going to lie. Once again, common sense.

[Taramere]

This is what would make me hesitate in reporting anything unless it was of the stranger-in-an-alley-with-witnesses-nearby variety. Quite honestly, I think not reporting rape or sexual assault would help me heal faster.

 

It's one of those situations where you'd have to resolve the conflict between what was the best course of action for you psychologically, and what was the morally correct thing to do. I wouldn't hesitate to push a guy away and say "no" if he's pushing for sex and failing to pick up the signals that I'm not up for it - but my experience of men has been that they are, in fact, sensitive to those signals. So if a guy had sex with me without my consent, I'd be very clear that it was rape - and I'd be making him pay for wronging me in that way, even if it came at great personal cost to me.

 

I do believe you have to pick your battles carefully, but some battles really must be fought - and in that scenario, I'd hate to think that other women might be abused because of my failure to hold him accountable for his actions.

 

And then there's revolting garbage like this:

 

 

It's apparently a-okay to manipulate someone into doing something they're not exactly sure about just because you want a piece of p-ssy. Even though you know full well that if you stop and actually ask instead of playing mind games, they'll say no to you.

 

I had the same thought. When I wrote earlier about it being reasonable to expect men to check things out with a woman they want to sleep with, I could envisage a typical PUA response to that. Something along the lines of "never give a woman the opportunity to say no to you."

 

In the world of the trainee PUA, a succession of jargon and soundbites provides the response for all of life's complex problems. In theory anyway...though undoubtedly not in practice. I've looked at one of those PUA sites, and from time to time a poster will express the view that society grossly overestimates the extent to which rape is wrong. I've also seen posters tentatively sound out the extent to which other men think paedophilia is a social construct designed to "shame" men out of sleeping with attractive young girls under the age of 16.

 

After reading several comments like that, I just stopped looking as it was too creepy and depressing. I think it's probably the case that while the majority of men who frequent those sites looking for answers to their conflicts are normal, decent people, such sites are also bound to appeal to a few bottom feeders. Such is the nature of the Internet. Provided posters follow a particular site's guidelines, there's no sexual offenders register prohibiting certain people from presenting themselves as expert advisor (to the vulnerable and/or clueless) on romantic and sexual matters.

[Kamille]

You ignored my question. Why would you go inside knowing he wants sex?

 

As for lying, that's a certain type of lie. It's like asking if the outfit makes you look fat when you know it does. Of course he's going to lie. Once again, common sense.

 

If you read anything I posted in the past, you would know I advocate staying out of private places until a woman knows she wants to sleep with a man. But since we both want to be realists, you also know this isn't how the world works. So, given that girls will want to spend time with men, thinking it's a great way to make out with them and show them just how well they click, why would you advocate lying? Why do you advocate one gender adapt to the other's prerogative? Do you seriously believe men cannot be held accountable for their sexuality?

 

Lying about intentions to have sex have much higher stakes attached to them then lying about an outfit.

[40 Fonzarelli]

Rapists should be punished. False accusors should be equally punished.

[sanskrit]

It's incumbent on women to have the confidence to express our opinions and our boundaries regardless of whether men attack us verbally for doing so.

 

Agreed totally... but...

 

Since when has the above, here on LS, or anywhere else, during our lifetimes and even long before, ever been a problem for women? The irony of the comment above is that in actuality, feminists are the attackers, the shouters, the "hysterical bullies" in modern culture, not sexually assertive men or men seeking sex.

 

What prevents women from being assertive in those situations?

 

No idea because it is a weakness women certainly do not exhibit in any other aspect of life. So in every venue other than the sexual, men are to treat women as intelligent adults, capable of speaking for themselves and governing their own lives. But with respect to sexual consent, adult women suddenly turn into wayward children who must be given a "coloring book" of "are you sure this is ok? perhaps you'd like to call your mommy and daddy to see what they think before you unzip my pants and grab my scary man-penis like that?"

 

I attribute more adulthood and rationality than that to women generally.

 

What prevents men from behaving in a more thoughtful and respectful manner towards women they want to have sex with? Perhaps one of the men here could answer that one, because the answer isn't clear to me.

 

What prevents me from going and mowing my neighbor's yard today, bringing their children expensive gifts, redrafting my will to include them? Simple. 1. They are presumed to be adult human beings capable of managing their own lives and feelings 2. They aren't my responsibility. Not my brother's, or sister's keeper, and they might even find my "patronage" highly offensive in other contexts.

 

To jokingly paraphrase Nietzsche, "If the patriarchy did not exist, women would stumble over themselves in an effort to create it."

 

Are you, or are you not, asking for men to exercise some sort of patriarchal dominion over women in the act of "helping" women to make decisions about their lives that they are presumably quite capable of making on their own as rational adults?

 

If you don't want to give the woman that opportunity, then that doesn't reflect very well on you at all.

 

Well certainly not as a lover anyway. I can't count on both hands, feet and several imaginary digits how many times I have been told, "I like to be banged hard," how many times I have been told, "I want a man who takes control, I want to be taken!" I asked a woman once when very young, "May I kiss you?" The look of outright revulsion on her face was palpable and extremely instructive, as if she had just seen a giant vagina tattooed on my forehead. She was having sex with a guy whom I assume did not ask her within the week...

 

I recall several threads here and elswhere, "should a man ask a woman to kiss her?" and the universal female responses... "EWWWWWW! not MANLY! We want CONFIDENT men who don't have to ask!" Where have all the cowboys gone? Where are all the "real" men? Where indeed.

 

I'll tell you where, they were all turned into sopping piles of milquetoast goo during date rape sensitivity training.

 

if you don't believe the guy has a responsibility to actively check that the woman is okay with having sex with him, then it's likely that you'll put yourself in the kind of situation where a date rape allegation might be made against you.

 

In a hysterical, histrionic "Crucible" culture, maybe he is likely to be falsely accused, happens each and every day with alarming frequency... but

 

...you should be ashamed of the above type of blackmail. No one reading or posting to this thread, no matter their view, is likely to be the type of man you decry.

 

No doubt you would plead innocent victimhood because of your view that the woman carries all the responsibility in these situations, while the man has no responsibility but to get his rocks off.

 

Your view seems to be that the man has responsibility both for his own desire -and- the woman's consent "beyond a reasonable doubt," not only legally untenable, but romantically dull and stagnant, and inducive of an unhealthy patriarchal sexual relationship between people presumed to be adults.

 

I don't think the popularity of "Gone with the Wind" stems from -men- getting a hard-on when Rhett forcibly carries Scarlett up the stairs, does it? Why is that scene so popular and appealing then, and with whom?

[Floridaman]

Sanskrit, prepare for an avalanche of criticism.

[Floridaman]

I can't count on both hands, feet and several imaginary digits how many times I have been told, "I like to be banged hard," how many times I have been told, "I want a man who takes control, I want to be taken!" I asked a woman once when very young, "May I kiss you?" The look of outright revulsion on her face was palpable and extremely instructive, as if she had just seen a giant vagina tattooed on my forehead. She was having sex with a guy whom I assume did not ask her within the week...

 

I recall several threads here and elswhere, "should a man ask a woman to kiss her?" and the universal female responses... "EWWWWWW! not MANLY! We want CONFIDENT men who don't have to ask!" Where have all the cowboys gone? Where are all the "real" men? Where indeed.

 

I'll tell you where, they were all turned into sopping piles of milquetoast goo during date rape sensitivity training.

That kind of goes with what I've long thought...

Certain woman will make a big show of trying to remain "innocent" in public - at least that's what they say - all the while make love to you with wild abandon throwing out any kind of self control once they're joined with you in your bed...

[waynebrady]

Well certainly not as a lover anyway. I can't count on both hands, feet and several imaginary digits how many times I have been told, "I like to be banged hard," how many times I have been told, "I want a man who takes control, I want to be taken!" I asked a woman once when very young, "May I kiss you?" The look of outright revulsion on her face was palpable and extremely instructive, as if she had just seen a giant vagina tattooed on my forehead. She was having sex with a guy whom I assume did not ask her within the week...

 

I recall several threads here and elswhere, "should a man ask a woman to kiss her?" and the universal female responses... "EWWWWWW! not MANLY! We want CONFIDENT men who don't have to ask!" Where have all the cowboys gone? Where are all the "real" men? Where indeed.

 

I'll tell you where, they were all turned into sopping piles of milquetoast goo during date rape sensitivity training.

 

This post was spot on... It seems men are damned if they do and damned of they don't.

[Taramere]

IWhat prevents me from going and mowing my neighbor's yard today, bringing their children expensive gifts, redrafting my will to include them? Simple. 1. They are presumed to be adult human beings capable of managing their own lives and feelings 2. They aren't my responsibility. Not my brother's, or sister's keeper, and they might even find my "patronage" highly offensive in other contexts.

 

What a ridiculous analogy. If you mow your neighbour's lawn for free, then you are doing them a favour that is above and beyond your normal duty as a neighbour. Being clear that you have a woman's consent before you stick your dick in her is not doing her a big favour. It is, quite literally, your f8cking duty.

 

ETA. When I say "being clear" I mean that if she isn't demonstrating her consent by demonstrating an enthusiastic response to your advances, then you're not getting clear consent. In that situation, asking "are you okay with this" is a way of letting her know that you're not getting an enthusiastic vibe from her. She can respond in two ways. She can say something like "actually no...do we mind if we just take it down a notch? This is a bit fast for me.." or she can say "I'm fine" and perhaps start demonstrating a more enthusiastic response.

 

You seem to be of the view that it's your role, as a man, to dominate rather than to communicate effectively with your partner. I'm not saying it's wrong for a man to take a dominating role, but if he does it with a woman he hasn't first developed some good communication with, then it could lead to a bad situation. If your advice to other men (men who have difficulty relating to women and therefore seek advice about it on message boards) involves telling them to take control rather than building up a rapport with the woman before stepping it up to that dominating sexual level, then I think you're giving some pretty irresponsible and immature advice.

 

 

Are you, or are you not, asking for men to exercise some sort of patriarchal dominion over women in the act of "helping" women to make decisions about their lives that they are presumably quite capable of making on their own as rational adults?

 

Why are you underlining this? If a man declines my offer to split the bill for dinner, in certain circumstances I will ask "are you sure? I'm happy to split the bill." Most probably if I suspect he isn't all that flush for cash but feels under a social obligation to meet the whole cost.

 

That's not matriarchal or "helping someone to make a decision". It's letting them know that I won't be sitting in judgement of them or getting offended if they go against the social norm of "the man pays for dinner."

 

It's quite astounding that you would regard it as "patriarchal" for a man to want to check that a woman doesn't feel under any pressure to have sex with him.

 

I recall several threads here and elswhere, "should a man ask a woman to kiss her?" and the universal female responses... "EWWWWWW! not MANLY! We want CONFIDENT men who don't have to ask!" Where have all the cowboys gone? Where are all the "real" men? Where indeed.

 

I'll tell you where, they were all turned into sopping piles of milquetoast goo during date rape sensitivity training.

 

Date rape sensitivity training? I've never heard of such a thing. Is that something they send sex offenders on?

Edited October 9, 2010 by Taramere

[Crusoe]

Some of the male responses here surprise me. Where I come from men were raised to look after women. Be they family, girlfriend, friend or total stranger, it was a fellas duty to make sure no harm came their way, not to try and go balls deep as soon the the opportunty arose. If your date was drunk you made sure she got home safely and slept alone. If she was drunk and coming on to you, you turned her down, she's drunk, not thinking straight and so you didn't take advantage.

 

Really, it shouldn't ever get to the stage where a woman has to say "NO" and push a fella away.

[Taramere]

Some of the male responses here surprise me. Where I come from men were raised to look after women. Be they family, girlfriend, friend or total stranger, it was a fellas duty to make sure no harm came their way, not to try and go balls deep as soon the the opportunty arose. If your date was drunk you made sure she got home safely and slept alone. If she was drunk and coming on to you, you turned her down, she's drunk, not thinking straight and so you didn't take advantage.

 

Really, it shouldn't ever get to the stage where a woman has to say "NO" and push a fella away.

 

You know, Crusoe - I'm beginning to wonder if this is a cultural thing.

 

One time as part of a training placement, I had to visit a prison that housed a lot of sex offenders. I'd already walked through a work area and been yelled, screamed and whistled at, so I was feeling a bit on edge. Later I was standing around with some guards and prisoners, and one of the prisoners invited me to go up and see his dorm. He'd just been moved in there, and apparently sleeping in a dorm (rather than in isolation, which I'd much prefer if I was in prison) was regarded as a privilege.

 

I looked nervously at the guards, not sure how to respond to this invitation. The guard said "you're honoured. It's not every visitor who gets that invitation." What, of course, I wanted to ask was "will I be safe? Will you make sure the guys in that dorm don't suddenly slam the door shut and attack me?" But ridiculous as it might sound, I felt too embarrassed to indicate that I was nervous about such a prospect. I felt it would be....rude. Also I thought that surely to God the guards wouldn't permit me to go up there if there was any risk - and I knew that convicted sex offenders weren't placed in dorms. On the other hand, how can you be sure there isn't a risk in that situation?

 

I decided, mad as it might sound, that the polite thing to do was to accept the invitation and place myself at risk by visiting this dorm. A bunch of prisoners were in there, and welcomed me warmly. Some of them were standing by the wall covering up the porn pictures. Others made conversation, asking me about my training etc. The general attitude was a sort of friendly, protective manner, and they were obviously making an effort to put me at my ease.

 

I'm 100% certain I would never take that risk in an American prison. From what I read on here, it's not unusual for American men to regard female trust as something that's ripe for abuse rather than a compliment that should be appreciated. You as a British man are questioning the aggressive attitudes towards women that are expressed here. I note that American male posters haven't, and I wonder if this is because those guys are expressing views that while not shared by all American men, are regarded as pretty normal.

 

I agree with you completely that something's very wrong if signals are ignored or missed until it gets to the stage where a woman is having to push the guy off and say "No!" For many women, if a man was pushing aggressively to the level where a "stop" signal as confrontational as that were appropriate, she may well be too scared to resort to it. A guy who isn't picking up the usual non-verbal "I'm not into this - could you cool it?" signals is probably someone who has anti-social tendencies and might therefore be very likely to hurt a woman who frustrates him in his efforts to get his end away.

[sanskrit]

What a ridiculous analogy.

 

The point is that it is adults' duty to make their own decisions and to engage in behavior as they see fit. Admittedly, consent has never been an issue with me, but expecting a man to go through several "clearance" stages before having sex with a woman who isn't saying no is patronizing and patriarchal of women.

 

She can respond in two ways. She can say something like "actually no...do we mind if we just take it down a notch? This is a bit fast for me.." or she can say "I'm fine" and perhaps start demonstrating a more enthusiastic response.

 

And IME will most likely respond with a yawn. And another thing, asking such questions will most likely open a floodgate of female insecurity more often than not, "my breath must smell, he thinks I'm fat, he isn't digging me." IME women want men who are just as taken in the moment as they are.

 

If your advice to other men (men who have difficulty relating to women and therefore seek advice about it on message boards) involves telling them to take control rather than building up a rapport with the woman before stepping it up to that dominating sexual level, then I think you're giving some pretty irresponsible and immature advice.

 

Yep, that's exactly my advice to such men, who by their mere presence here are demonstrating fairly clearly that their problem is not with obtaining consent, but in being sexually assertive in a masculine and respectful way without being ashamed of it or fearing rejection.

 

Why are you underlining this?

 

Because you are advocating an unduly patriarchal attitude towards adult women. We aren't talking about splitting bills here in this thread.

 

It's quite astounding that you would regard it as "patriarchal" for a man to want to check that a woman doesn't feel under any pressure to have sex with him.

 

Of course she feels pressure to have sex with him, his desire is a big part of what turns HER on. Countless threads here confirm this.

 

If she doesn't want it, she needs to be like Nancy Reagan and "just say no."

 

Date rape sensitivity training? I've never heard of such a thing. Is that something they send sex offenders on?

 

Surely you know that such sessions are mandatory for entering college freshman across the U.S. Read the Sommers article I cited for more gory, depressing detail on the bogus campus-oriented "date rape" movement that robs resources from urban trouble areas where rape is a very real threat to lower income women.

[Taramere]

Admittedly, consent has never been an issue with me, but expecting a man to go through several "clearance" stages before having sex with a woman who isn't saying no is patronizing and patriarchal of women.

 

You say this, then go on to claim that you have experience of checking out with a woman that she was comfortable with having sex with you. IME is short for "in my experience", right?..

 

And IME will most likely respond with a yawn.

 

Either consent has never been an issue for you, or you have been in a situation where a woman wasn't giving you a clear green light, non-verbally, that she was comfortable with what was happening...and you therefore needed to check that she was okay. To which she responded by yawning.

 

It sounds as though the women you get entangled with are real charmers. Making lots of noise about "wanting to be taken roughly" (who comes out with that on a date with a man they haven't yet slept with?) Yawning in response to you demonstrating sensitivity towards them.

 

Can you fathom why all the women in your experience have behaved so boorishly?

 

Surely you know that such sessions are mandatory for entering college freshman across the U.S. Read the Sommers article I cited for more gory, depressing detail on the bogus campus-oriented "date rape" movement that robs resources from urban trouble areas where rape is a very real threat to lower income women.

 

No, I don't know that. I'm not from the US. Here, there has been the occasional rape case involving students, but I'm not aware of a big issue of date rape amongst students. It certainly wasn't something that was an issue when I was a student. There was the occasional nastily aggressive type....but those people tended to be social rejects in the university I attended. They would have to hunt around outside the collegiate environment if they wanted to get laid.

 

I'm not aware of any woman I knew having been raped by a fellow student in the "date rape" manner....and these are things that women will generally disclose privately to other women at some point. I'll say it again. From what I'm reading here, it's a very different culture in the US. One where men are encouraged to behave in a pretty thuggish manner towards women....though funnily enough, it's only American men who seem to be advocating that behaviour on this board. The American women don't sound so keen on it. The ones you know might be, but the ones you know are, as you've disclosed, the kind of women who yawn rudely when a man behaves with any class around them.

[harmfulsweetz]

Crusoe, it's good to see that there are real men still around I liked your post, the men in the UK are very much like this. I get out of a taxi, and the driver waits until I get in my house to make sure I'm safe inside. It's custom, it's the done thing. A shame not more men on this board share those same values.

 

Taramere, excellent posts and I agree 100% with you.

 

 

The thing with consent is this and I'm thinking some of the men missed this point-if a woman is actively participating in the sexual acts, i.e. undressing you, foreplay etc, she is more than likely consenting, and so you can safely say you believe her to be consenting. If she is lying there, not doing an awful lot then you may need to check that she does actually want you to go that far. Got that? Asking if she is sure, is the right thing to do, and not only that, but it only takes a second, doesn't ruin any mood, and shows you have respect and consideration for her needs and safety.

 

Rape is a tricky subject for most people, most people know of a woman who has been raped/sexually assaulted or have been a victim themselves. Most attacks occur with people they know, and are not necessarily physically violent attacks. Hence, why it is so hard to prove in court. It really isn't a case of show your bruises and you prove it, it's a case of her word vs his. There's a larger amount of cases of rape that go unreported, or never make it to the courtroom. I highly doubt that very many women would put themselves through the physical examination (I have been present during one, and it was very, very traumatic and it made me question if in the same position, I could do that) if they were not raped.

 

In the UK, rape is confined to recklessness i.e. a reckless attitude in gaining consent from the partner, do not confuse that mens rea with a necessary intent to harm. It very simply means the man did not do his utmost in ensuring he had the full consent to have sex. Most people think of rape and they think violence, they think force, a lot of the cases I've read were the opposite, but rape still stands. If you haven't took the time, the effort in making sure your partner is 100% willing and consenting, you're reckless and thus, at risk of being accused of rape.

 

A few women have mentioned that they would fear reporting the rape to the police, going through the court process and I agree. I'd be very fearful and wary of the attitudes. My friend was raped on holiday, a few years ago. We went alone, just me and her, and he got into our apartment, and raped her. She did not know him. She did not let him in, she was doing something on the balcony, and he walked in without her realizing. She locked the door, and there he was. I found her early that morning, I reported it to the rep on site, and his attitude was appalling. It was all garnered towards what did she do to attract his advances? Did she drink too much? What was she wearing? He looked down on her, like it was her fault, her mistake, nothing to do with the fact that some ********* thought he had the right to violate her in such a way. He was never caught.

 

So much focus seems placed on the women's actions, what did they do in the prelude to pre-empt such an attack? How did they deserve it? After all, no man actually attacks and violates a human being without necessary encouragement right? Wrong. How's about men actually start paying attention to what women say and do, not one or the other. It is BOTH parties responsibility to ensure each is happy and comfortable with what is going on. Failing that, you're omitting to do a duty which is putting that person at risk, and yourself at risk of accusation. I know a couple of women who have been raped, both were of the violent, by strangers kind. And in one of these cases, the group of men were found but never brought to court due to a lack of evidence, in spite of the fact that they had all the bodily fluids, and they'd taken the time to key their numbers into her phone. Right now, I'm thinking the law needs checking and revising completely, because other women are now at risk of c*nts like them.

[that girl]

Because an alternate POV on the actual prevalence and "danger" of being date-raped in a somewhat alarmist thread on the issue is thoroughly topical, despite yours and other's efforts to "shout down" the contra POV.

 

 

 

 

Reread my first post to the thread. My concern is for 1) real victims of the crime of rape, and 2) falsely accused men and their families. Those are two groups who have urgent realities to worry about.

Talking about date rape isn't alarmist. Even if you think the numbers are small (which goes aganist all the research on this topic that shows 1/4-1/10th of women will be raped in their lifetime), you should want women to be safe.

 

Your concern is debunking the supposed rape myth, you have no concern for rape victims.

 

 

Your actual posts show that.

 

You started with

Date rape is the subject of some of the most doctored "research" in misandrist circles.

 

20-50% of all rape claims are false. The saddest thing about this doctored research and the high percentage of false claims is that it detracts from real victims of real rape.

When Elaina was just trying to talk about proactive behavior.

 

Then you go on to post research and when I take the time to go through the studies and point out methodological flaws and critcisms you say

 

You aren't in a position to "debunk" anything, or rather, on the off-chance you are, please cite the research -you- have personally conducted on the matter. "That post is nonsense" is not compelling analysis.

 

I went through the research point by point and it either doesn't say what you think it says (the Cambridge article) or has serious flaws (Kanin, the Airforce).

 

You want the research to say rape is a rare crime that millions of women lie about, but it doesn't.

 

 

I hope people do read the research. Personally, I think it is interesting. But when a men's mental health research calls one article biased and unscientific (the Purdue paper with the lie detectors), I think people should be aware of the bias.

 

Thanks for the link. I invite readers to read the study for themselves, and find your summary exceptionally slanted.

 

You are trying to completely derail a post about how women can protect themselves from the few predatory males out there and turn it into how women are liars.

[that girl]

I was not talking about her specific case. I regret writing what I wrote and should have made it clear this was about a hypothetical situation, not her's which was clearly rape.

Fair enough Floridaman. But I still find the situation somewhat ludicrious. The only women I can see being okay with something like oral sex and not penetration are teenage virgins who are still figuring sex out. In any case, no one should be forced into sex regardless of what they have done before.

 

These suggestions for men are ridiculous. Who the hell is going to stop and say "Are you okay with this?"? That would totally ruin the mood.

I don't think asking if a woman is okay with what is going on will ruin the mood. I think "Do you want me inside you?" could end up being kind of sexy for both people. "Oh, God yes!" would probably turn most guys on.

 

I have no doubt that she had a sexual experience that she wasn't comfortable with and that she now regrets doing. What I doubt is the fact that she was actually raped.

Somedude81 this is not an okay thing to post. If we were talking about a news story, it would be fine. But Aerogurl is a real person who shared something traumatic here.

 

You saying that you don't believe her is just cruel. This is why women often don't tell people about their rapes, they are afraid they won't be believed.

 

You have every right not to believe her, but this is one of those moments where you should keep that disbelief to yourself. It is just mean to express it where she can read it.

 

Over the years I have read a lot of material written by the Pick Up (PU) community. One topic that is constantly brought up is Last Minute Resistance. (LMR) It's the belief that most women will try to refuse first time sex with a new guy. The community gives tips on how to get over that which results in the girl letting the guy sleep with her, without raping her. Physically forcing a girl to have sex is easy and most guys are decent enough to not do that. So when a girl doesn't resist at all, it can be seen as a green light. None of those guys would ever dream about asking her if she wanted to do it, because there's a huge chance she'd say no.

This is frankly a little scary and sounds a lot like training guys to be rapists.

 

So the whole concept of going along with sex, to avoid having the man hurt her is hard for me to understand.

I understand how it would be hard for a gentle guy to understand. But it is something a woman could feel. You shouldn't discount Aerogurl's feelings because you're not that kind of guy.

 

That's when I would get upset because I'd expect her to know me well enough to know that I can't hurt her. And to think so is an attack on my character.

It really isn't an attack on your charecter. It is a sign that some guys aren't good guys.

[that girl]

For most guys if the girl they are with doesn't say no or resist and especially if they are drunk they won't have any idea that what they are doing is hurting her.

It is the guy's responsibility to make sure that his partner is enjoying what is going on.

 

It would be unfair (and incredibly unlikely) to convict someone of rape because they didn't realize the woman wasn't into it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is incredibly screwed up to not look for a woman's active consent to sex.

 

And really I do not think that guys are out their accidentally raping women because they weren't aware that the woman wasn't interested. The link I posted on page 2 (yes means yes) points out that a small percentage of guys are knowingly forcing women to have sex and that this small group committ a huge number of rapes.

 

I do reccomend that men reading this look for active consent, but it isn't because I think they are out there accidentally raping women. I just think it is a good policy so that sex is enjoyable for both people.

 

The situation aerogirl was in was not rape, it was bad but it was not rape. If she said no and resisted would the guy have continued? Obviously I don't know but maybe he would have... just saying.

This is not okay. Aerogurl has described a situation where she felt forced to have sex. It isn't up to you to doubt that on the internet. She shared it as an example, not so people could tell her that it was her fault because she didn't resist. The guy isn't at risk of going to jail and people need to have compassion for Aerogurl.

 

Which makes me think of this- I know more than one woman who has been raped but has never told any of the men in her life because she is afraid of being doubted. This kind of behavior is why that happens. Rather than showing compassion for a woman who feels she was raped, some people on this forum feel the need to be judgmental and give a guy they will never meet and who is in no danger the benefit of the doubt. Meanwhile, I think they are hurting a person who was brave enough to share a traumatic story.

[waynebrady]

I understand how it would be hard for a gentle guy to understand. But it is something a woman could feel. You shouldn't discount Aerogurl's feelings because you're not that kind of guy.

 

Just because Aerogurl thought that he would hurt her if she didn't have sex with him doesn't mean he actually would. Maybe if she said no and tried to stop him he maybe would have stopped, the situation could possibly have been prevented if she said no and stopped him. That's why it was not rape. Offcourse I wasn't there, I don't know the details and all that but based on what she wrote it's not rape.

 

I don't mean to be insensitive. I don't condone what that guy did, it was completley classless.

[that girl]

Good questions both parties need to ponder.

 

What if the two are naked, have been intimate in other ways that eve. and he's arising to mount her?

 

She could have last second (literally) second thoughts as he is dangerously close to him doing her.

 

What if she's even given him permission, but she panics and gets scared?

 

The guy needs to stop. It doesn't matter if he is about to have sex with her or if he is in the middle of having sex with her. Again, sex is something two people do together, not something a man does to a woman after a specific point. Having sex with someone who isn't into it doesn't even sound like fun.

 

What amazes me about this question is that it doesn't seem to occur to you that the woman could want to stop for reasons other than she doesn't want to have sex.

 

She could need to put in her diagphram.

 

She could want to be on top.

 

She could want to blow him.

 

She could want to put on music so her neighbors don't hear.

 

There are a million reasons a woman would want to halt p-in-v sex that don't mean she doesn't want to have sex. Everyone should want the active, happy participant of the person they are with.

[that girl]

It just gives the impression that you actually want sex because you brought it up. It's just seems something one would say to reassure themselves that they aren't a slut.

 

Any guy would lie and say, "Sure no sex" with every intention of trying to get in her pants.

 

So if I'm on a date with a girl and I invite her in with the intention of having sex, which she should know. And she gives me that line and still comes in, then it's absolutely guaranteed I'll try to have sex with her. If she absolutely didn't want sex, then she should have not gone inside.

This comes very close to victim blaming and really ignores what women say.

 

A woman who says that you can come over but there won't be any sex should be believed. I can understand hoping it might still happen, but that is different than assuming that she is reassuring herself that she isn't a slut.

 

It really isn't that unusual for a woman to want to spend time alone with a guy and make out a little without sex on a second date. But what you're saying is that a woman should never be alone with a man if she doesn't want sex.

 

From a safety point of view, that makes sense. But it is also saying that women should see you as a threat.

[that girl]

Really, it shouldn't ever get to the stage where a woman has to say "NO" and push a fella away.

For many women, if a man was pushing aggressively to the level where a "stop" signal as confrontational as that were appropriate, she may well be too scared to resort to it. A guy who isn't picking up the usual non-verbal "I'm not into this - could you cool it?" signals is probably someone who has anti-social tendencies and might therefore be very likely to hurt a woman who frustrates him in his efforts to get his end away.

Exactly.

 

From what I read on here, it's not unusual for American men to regard female trust as something that's ripe for abuse rather than a compliment that should be appreciated. You as a British man are questioning the aggressive attitudes towards women that are expressed here. I note that American male posters haven't, and I wonder if this is because those guys are expressing views that while not shared by all American men, are regarded as pretty normal.

I think LS has some very misogynistic posters and I think some posters are just being thoughtless. But the US has a 13% rape conviction rate (scarily low) and the UK has an 6% conviction rate (even more terrifying). I don't think the UK is any better than the US in terms of understanding rape.

[Taramere]

Crusoe, it's good to see that there are real men still around I liked your post, the men in the UK are very much like this. I get out of a taxi, and the driver waits until I get in my house to make sure I'm safe inside. It's custom, it's the done thing. A shame not more men on this board share those same values.

 

I've noticed that a lot about this board. The guys who question or challenge those male posters who advocate an aggressive approach towards women tend not to be from the US.

 

I'm sure there are plenty of decent American guys, but their decency apparently doesn't extend to stepping up and challenging the kind of men who advocate this "take them by force -it's the only thing they respect" approach. The job of challenging the validity of that advice is left to women, who are then informed that they're liars or that they don't know what women want.

 

It would be unfair (and incredibly unlikely) to convict someone of rape because they didn't realize the woman wasn't into it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is incredibly screwed up to not look for a woman's active consent to sex.

 

Totally agree with this, and with your other points.

 

As you're evidently American, and I haven't met many American men in real life I must ask whether the kind of stuff on this thread demonstrates a typical attitude you've encountered amongst American men? Or is it just the kind of creepiness that is typically encountered in the Republic of the Internet?